The fact that Loughner is insane and disturbed

[cbc5g]

Seems to be lost among those that wish to make him out to be a teabagger.

[LisaL]

1. I very much doubt he will qualify as legally insane.

So it's not a fact.

[Kali]

10. curious - why do you think that?

[LisaL]

Because to be found legally insane he must not know right from

wrong.

[Kali]

17. is that in statute somewhere?

I am not arguing - you could be right I do know it is rare and difficult to prove legally, but it sure seems to this lay person that he is.

[Hutzpa]

18. So this tells me you have no idea

what makes a person insane but where able to start a thread insinuating that we need to consider
the shooter's inability to think for self.

This is laughable, sounds like you are trying to sympathize with the shooter.

[Kali]

22. huh?

did you respond in the wrong place?

[Hutzpa]

37. This post was meant for you

because you do not know what the legal test for mentally disturbed individual is, tht's the reason I
made that statement.

[Kali]

43. could you link to the thread I started

so I can try to understand what you are saying?

"So this tells me you have no idea

what makes a person insane but where able to start a thread insinuating that we need to consider
the shooter's inability to think for self."

[Coyote_Bandit]

19. The legal test for sanity

is the ability to know right from wrong. It is a legal concept that goes back hundreds of years and is rooted in both common law and statute.

It is also a measure that has little to do with our medical understanding of mental illness.

[Kali]

24. oh ok

that makes a little more sense

I was having some trouble imagining wording that concise in actual legal-eze

[foxfeet]

25. That's an important distinction.

"Insane" is a legal term; "psychotic" is a clinical term. There is some overlap, but not 100%.

[treestar]

38. That message to his friends

not to be mad at him - that could show a consciousness that what he was doing was wrong.

Not to jump to any conclusion - that is just a thought.

[onenote]

42. the legal consequences of a defendant's mental state or competence

are more complex and nuanced than the simple "ability to know right from wrong" standard that often is used as a shorthand by the public.

First, as to whether a defendant can be held responsible for their actions, the Model Penal Code test is as follows: "if at the time of such conduct as a result of mental disease or defect he lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law" (i.e., the test considers both cognitive and volitional capacity of the defendant).

Second, in death penalty cases, evidence of a defendant's mental illness that impacts a person's behavior typically can be (and under some precedents must be) considered as a mitigating factor even if the evidence falls short of the standard needed to absolve the defendant of all responsibility.

[cali]

34. he may not be, but he's looking more and more

clinically insane.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

2. He was probably working for someone

[eowyn_of_rohan]

9. ...

:think:

[Kali]

12. okay

who?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

48. why not?

why are so eager to jump on the 'he was a loony' bandwagon? There are plenty of mafia hitmen around.

[bbinacan]

3. Amen. n/t

[Tansy_Gold]

4. "fact"? How do you know?

Are you a mental health professional? Have you examined Mr. Loughner and put him through whatever diagnostic tests it would take to make that determination?

If not, then you don't have any "fact" at all.


TG, TT

[Rex]

11. Now now, why bring common sense into this!

People love their black and white worlds...let them be!

[FiveGoodMen]

31. Maybe the poster's real name is Frist

[EFerrari]

5. Not really. It's precisely someone in that condiiton who is most suggestible.

[walldude]

7. Shhh, you just want him to be a tea bagger.

It's not like anyone is trying to get rid of the violent rhetoric or anything. This is all an excuse for the left to attack the right! There is nothing wrong with the rhetoric, it's the fact that you are talking about it that makes it bad.

[Rex]

13. That is right! We must not call him what he is, it makes people mad around

here...guess it could possibly mean their favorite shows getting canceled! Besides Bob Boulderlag (Boulderlag?) says STOP SAYING THAT BEFORE I CALL BUS TERMINAL SECURITY!!!

[jpak]

6. Which court appointed physician has determined this? (Rand Paul & FAUX news assholes don't count)

teabagger apologies not accepted

nope

[jtown1123]

40. Thank you. Until we hear from licensed psychologists, I'll refrain from speculating.

[joeunderdog]

51. I'm not a licensced psychologist, but

I work with them and the people they evaluate. This case seems pretty clear, although each state is slightly different in terms of determining criminal responsibility vs. legal insanity. As a general rule, it doesn't matter how floridly psychotic you may be, but if you show an understanding of right and wrong and willful disregard for the law, you will be held legally accountable. In this case, the alleged apologies to friends/family about what the shooter was going to do would represent that he had knowledge that the act was wrong. The fact that he said this before the act seems to be clear proof of actual premeditation of the crime.

Slam dunk for prosecution, regardless of underlying illness or politics.

[kestrel91316]

8. His mental problems don't in any way rule out his being influenced by the steady stream of RW crap

coming from the radio and tv all morning, noon and night. He's crazy, NOT blind and deaf.

[foxfeet]

26. Good point. nt

[backscatter712]

30. This.

Delusions are formed out of things picked out of a person's environment.

If a person's environment is filled with conspiracy theories, right-wing bullshit, hatred, demonization and symbols of violent, that's what's going into his head when he forms his delusions.

So he doesn't have to be a teabagger or even be very political to form delusions and paranoia that make him dangerous.

[Buns_of_Fire]

14. What better qualifications are there? nt

[Bandit]

15. Even if proved to be insane, does that make him immune from talk of "2nd Amendment Remedies"?

Especially if from people that are Political Leaders.....

[Chorophyll]

16. Can you not have a mental illness AND be a teabagger?

For that matter, can you not have a mental illness and be a Democrat? I think most people can walk and chew gum at the same time. And most people do.

[bemildred]

20. There is no reason at present to think he is insane.

He has issues for sure, but he's a long way from insane.

[Kurovski]

21. The paranoid are most suggestible.

They feel threatened, and if you make an illegal act seem like a reasonable...oh, I don't know... "REMEDY", well that's all the better, now isn't it?

Why do you think they gather crowds of fear-filled paranoids around Beck's story hour? They know what they're doing.

[joeunderdog]

52. Don't confuse angry and paranoid.

The RW has used fear to polarize the masses. It starts with anger and not psychosis.

The severely mentally ill are decidedly apolitical in my experience.

[Kurovski]

53. I'm not. I'm speaking from experience. (nt)

[uppityperson]

23. because teabaggers are sane and non-disturbed? Oh. Kay.

[eridani]

27. He's not coherent enough to be a teabagger. However, being nuts--

--voices tell him what to do. And what kind of voices have permeate the airwaves since the mid 80s or so?

[Common Sense Party]

46. Howard Stern?

[Kennah]

28. One of the best assessments of crazy from "NYPD Blue"

Det. Sipowicz referred to a woman as crazy.

Lt. Rodriguez asked of Det. Sipowicz, "Crazy like the space aliens tell her what to do, or crazy like half the people we arrest?"

[bullwinkle428]

59. GREAT line from that show! I had forgotten about that one.

[Johonny]

29. I'll be honest I can't tell the difference between sane tea bagger arguements and crazy ones

Almost all their arguments are based on fantasy. Is it any wonder people have a hard time telling the difference between what's said by an "insane" person ( how crazy he is has yet to be determined by professionals under examination) and the sane people of the tea bagger cause. The sane people promote the non existent death panels, weird FED conspiracies, that the bail out of banks was done under Obama, think Bush tax cuts created jobs, thinks Obama raise taxes, thinks he is a terrorist, a socialist, a marxist, a secret African, a Muslim etc.. no wonder for the confusion.

[EFerrari]

32. So true.

[seabeyond]

33. wrong. it is a given and accepted he was insane and disturbed. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

50. there's no proof that he was insane

he was probably paid

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. In a medical world he might be loony as a toon

and most likely he is. but if there was intent... (The documents found in his safe), and he can tell right from wrong... LEGALLY he is sane enough to stand trial.

The insanity defense is extremely hard to prove.

Yes, we should speak of the lack of access to mental health care. We should talk about how Americans mostly do not seek it for cultural reasons... but legally if he is sane enough to stand trial, all this may buy him is life in prison. Yes that is also in statues.

We should talk of the totality, and words do have an effect on people who are disturbed in interesting ways.

Oh and it is time, even if he is loon as a toon, that we start using the T word when appropriate even when the perpetrator happens to be white.

[fascisthunter]

36. Go Listen to a Tea bagger Rant, then Get Back to Us

80% of the shit coming out of their mouths(and they believe the shit they say) is crazy, misinformed garbage and it is coming from right wing radio and tv. This is what happens when right wing media becomes mainstream and many warned this would happen, so there is no excuse. Dehumanizing the left by lying about us is placing us in danger.... and I don't fucking appreciate it.

[mmonk]

39. The fact Loughner is an insane individual that lives in an environment

that pushes violence as an answer to politics created by the tea baggers is lost among those eager to show he wasn't.

[TwilightGardener]

41. The insane and disturbed are the ones who will most likely respond to

violent teabagger rhetoric and imagery in an inappropriate way. They're the folks that the Teabag leaders should be worried about before they open their pieholes about second-amendment remedies and holding shooting contests at political rallies...using rifle crosshairs on posters...using terms like "reload". Irresponsible.

[HuckleB]

44. "That guy must be crazy" ...

http://scienceblogs.com/webeasties/2011/01/that_guy_must_be_crazy.php

:eyes:

[arbusto_baboso]

45. What , he can't be both?

So, insane people don't have political convictions?

Please.

[Cetacea]

47. You'll have to pry my gun from my cold, mentally ill hands.

Unless you can prove that the mentally ill commit violent crimes more than does the general population.

Lot's of ignorance here regarding this. I'm surprised.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

49. why should he be mentally ill in order to shoot someone?

people shoot people all the time regardless of their mental state.

[HuckleB]

54. Nope. Total BS.

[RainDog]

55. when did you get your license to practice medicine?

the two ideas are not mutually exclusive, btw (i.e. insane/disturbed and teabagger)

however, afaik, he hasn't yet been dx'd. interesting, to me, is that AFTER he shot these people - he appears in a mug shot with no hair or eyebrows. that picture of him confirms our view of psychopaths that we have from popular culture (i.e. Taxi Driver and NBK.)

the reality is that, given the political climate since the HCR debate, many people jumped to the conclusion that he was a right winger - based upon the actions of teabaggers and the statements their leaders made.

I don't blame them. I wouldn't have been surprised at all if someone had started shooting at one of the town hall debates when people were opening carrying guns. Chekhov, all that.

Such assumptions are not necessarily the best thing to do - but in the context of our time, it's understandable.

the first indications of any information about him also put him into the right wing extremist mind set with his ramblings about the gold standard and grammar and the constitution.

the reality, of course, is that this is a political board and people have a stake in identifying negative things with the other side of the political divide.

that's also just how things go.

[BrightKnight]

56. He is a calculating, sociopathic, manipulated, dumb-ass, douchebag.

The mug shot grin was calculated. He is trying to play the crazy card but he is on par with a lot tea party people. It was cool calculated assassination and nothing excuses murdering a child.

He is going to be found guilty of capital murder and he is going to get lethal injection.

[lonestarnot]

57. A good cover for a tool.

[Swamp Rat]

60. Not good enough.

He is toast.

[HEyHEY]

58. Yup, they've turned into the very people they're chastizing. Not that that's new.....n/t