Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Question Authority

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:15 PM
Original message
Question Authority


In 2006, John Dean published his seventh book, “Conservatives Without Conscience.” This book relied heavily on the work of Dr. Robert Altemeyer, a professor of social psychology at the University of Manitoba. Dean's contribution to the understanding of what makes conservative republicans so repulsive to human beings is valuable, indeed. But as I noted when the book was first out, it is important for people to do further research on this topic, especially the works of Erich Fromm, who wrote extensively on this very topic.

In recent months, I've read an unsurprising, yet disturbing, number of threads on the Democratic Underground, which in effect state that support for all democratic candidates is not only essential, but that even questioning this can cause President Barack Obama to lose to Sarah Palin in 2012. Clearly, the concrete thinking known as “authoritarianism” is not monopolized by rigid republicans. Like rabies, it is a disease than can infect the public at large.

In the field of psychiatry, what is known as an “authoritarian personality” has been identified. In American political history, some toxic examples include J. Edgar Hoover and George W. Bush. It is not hard to recognize them and others as having posed grave threats to democracy. But in sociology, “authoritarianism” can blur any clear lines of distinction. Let's take a minute to look at “authority” in sociological terms, and then examine its potential for abuse.

There are three types of “authority.” They are traditional, charismatic, and bureaucratic. The first type is what was found among all people in early societies, including hunter-and-gatherers, and agrarian cultures. People do as they do, because it is “the way it has always been done.” Charismatic authority comes by way of a person who is respected by others for his or her individual leadership characteristics. And bureaucratic authority comes as a result of a large collection of people requiring a system to meet the needs of the majority of individuals in a systematic way. Both industrial and high-tech societies tend to have bureaucratic leadership.

Because the United States is run, by definition, by way of bureaucratic authority, we should now focus our attention on most common styles of authority within such social systems. The first has to do with the overlap with another type – charismatic authority. And even within this type, there are at least two sub-sets. There are charismatic leaders who are attractive as individuals, but who maintain the status quo of the system. They often challenge parts of that system which they are part of, but they maintain an allegiance to its foundations.

The next sub-set of charismatic leaders are those who opt not to participate in the comforts of the system as it is, but rather, choose to challenge its very foundations. In India, Mahatma Gandhi was such a charismatic force. In the USA, examples would include Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Jr., and even Senator Robert F. Kennedy, in his last two years of life. Charismatic leaders tend to initiate change, before being expelled, in one way or another, by the system they are attempting to alter.

Perhaps more important, in the context of this discussion, are the two other types of authority: “overt” and “anonymous.” Overt authority, in a democratic society, can be best illustrated by the example of the police forces. Obey the law, and you are generally okay. Break the law, and you will be punished in any of a variety of ways. However, as we see in the instance of J. Edgar Hoover, when a person with an authoritarian personality is in charge of a policing agency, they tend to advocate illegal procedures to find ways to punish those who obey the law, but challenge the system. And, worse, when a George W. Bush goes far beyond Hoover's wettest dreams, there is the risk of an authoritarian system “changing” the laws, or absolutely failing to punish the criminals – Bush, Cheney, Rove, et al – who openly violated the law of the land.

While overt authority says “do this or be punished!,” Erich Fromm pointed out that anonymous authority takes a different approach. It “suggests” that you do something, because “everyone else is doing it.” And, truth be known, a majority of Americans, hypnotized by electronic gadgets, with their senses dulled by the novocaine administered by the media, “freely” choose to be of the herd.

It is very sad to see parts of these forms of authority infecting the thought processes of good democrats. The idea that people should – indeed, must! – always vote for every single democrat in every single election, advocates a form of generic thinking that defines herds. I do not deny that the democratic product is better than the republican product. In national elections, I vote for the democratic candidate every time. But all elections are not national. Even this year, there were local elections with no democratic candidates in the mix. Should I have been confused? Wrote in the name of a democrat who was not running? No, of course not. While I would never advocate a third party candidate on this forum, I'll still vote for one if they are the best choice.

Likewise, I fully understand and appreciate that a person can be a very good democrat, and not invest time, money, or perhaps even a vote for specific democratic candidates. I'm saddened to see the repeated attempts of overt authority: “then it's your fault if Palin is elected!” Or even the attempts at anonymous authority: “you can be a good democrat, so long as you always and only vote for democratic candidates.”

By their nature, members of the democratic left recognize these crude attempts to bully people into accepting the unacceptable. For if democratic politicians can take for granted that the herd will support them, no matter how many times they betray our best interests, then brothers and sisters, we have tied our own hands, and do not deserve democratic representation. We have then betrayed our own interests, and that of our families and friends. We have chosen to submit to an authority that will capitalize on our ignorance.

In every situation, as adults, we should be thinking for ourselves. You and I should have enough trust in ourselves to trust our own insights and judgment. And anyone who tells you not to think for yourself sure as heck is not your friend. No, do not allow yourselves to be reduced to cattle or sheep, like the republicans that you know, or see on television. Also, have a conscience: help our confused and frightened democratic friends and associates to find the strength to think for their selves That is the best hope for the real Democratic Party today. Nothing less will do.

Thank you,
H2O Man
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Such language!
A person does what he must. If I do not vote for someone who is on Rahm Emmanuel's BFF list, then I do so as a matter of conscience and, therefore, obligation.

I kick and recommend this thread because lefty sheep annoy me just as much as righty ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. Public link to Altemeyer's book
The Authoritarians, by Bob Altemeyer. That official page has a link to a PDF of the book.

From that link:

For example, take the following statement: “Once our government leaders and the authorities condemn the dangerous elements in our society, it will be the duty of every patriotic citizen to help stomp out the rot that is poisoning our country from within.” Sounds like something Hitler would say, right? Want to guess how many politicians, how many lawmakers in the United States agreed with it? Want to guess what they had in common?

Or how about a government program that persecutes political parties, or minorities, or journalists the authorities do not like, by putting them in jail, even torturing and killing them. Nobody would approve of that, right? Guess again.

Don’t think for a minute this doesn’t concern you personally. Let me ask you, as we’re passing the time here, how many ordinary people do you think an evil authority would have to order to kill you before he found someone who would, unjustly, out of sheer obedience, just because the authority said to? What sort of person is most likely to follow such an order? What kind of official is most likely to give that order, if it suited his purposes? Look at what experiments tell us, as I did.


I read the first several chapters and found it more than a little chilling. The whole book is free, so there's no reason not to at least take a look.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #39
68. Thanks for the link
A very eye-opening book. Read through the first chapter.
It really explains a lot of what's going on.
Will study more a little later.
Thanks again
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #39
72. Free on the Internets and very inexpensive on lulu.com. I love the book. Bullies
Edited on Thu Dec-16-10 11:44 AM by rhett o rick
are what I call authoritarians. Some bullies lead and some follow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Man, can't rec this enough...
Off to the greatest with you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Question everything
Authority should always be questioned, but so should opposition authority. Your last paragraph speaks for itself. That's all you really needed to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sasha031 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. thank you for this beautiful thoughtful post
It should be required reading for all of us.
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent. Recommended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WiffenPoof Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Excellent Post...
...that is very much exemplified in recent threads here.

I could not put my finger on why some Dems here seemed to support the President regardless of his actions that appear to support Republican positions. It just seemed bizarre. It was like our party has split into to camps...one held strongly to Dem beliefs regardless of the person in question...while others supported the individual.

I'm sure that you recall the study that was done years ago where they did psychological inventories of 1st graders, determining various personality traits. They revisited the 1st graders 20 years later and did a second psychological inventory. Among the many questions asked was which party did the individual most identify. It turns out that those who identified themselves as Republicans were, as children, much less open to change and risk. While those that identified themselves as Dems were, as children, more adventurous and open to change. Of course, the study went much more deeply than political affiliation. However, I found it interesting and I think it is related to your post.

As a side note, the study was funded by the US Government. When the results were published, the Republicans decided that such studies would no longer be funded by the government.

Anyway....great post.

-PLA
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
44. Hey! I used to play Wiffenproof...
Edited on Thu Dec-16-10 07:28 AM by Agony
OK well sort of, I made up my own rules so I could have fun. I never did understand that game?

I think the actual game was for Authoritariians! or really smart people or something.

Cheers,
Agony

PS I think I still have it somewhere if you want it.

PPS great post as well

PPPPPS welcome to DU
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
45. Funny!
"When the results were published, the Republicans decided that such studies would no longer be funded by the government."

Welcome to the DU.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beringia Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. I enjoy your posts
I try to think for myself and not go blindly but I am not very politically savvy. I am curious as to how the next Presidential election will go. I heard that the Dalai Lama is retiring and wonder if he will have a successor. There is a person who thinks for himself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. I wanna puppy!!!!!
}(

I'm sorry, did you say something?!

PUPPYYYY!!!!

(sorry I couldn't resist, I'll go back and read what you wrote, I promise)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
89. Not surprised you will settle for a puppy. I want democracy. I guess we are on diff sides. nm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Um
I just noticed you don't have a star. Went back and looked and you don't have one on Moynihan either. Seems so unlike you. Why don't you have a star? Just wondering.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Good question!
I donated to DU a couple of weeks ago, and I've e-mailed Skinner to request my star. But I haven't had an answer to my e-mail, or received the star.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It Didn't Seem Like You
Edited on Wed Dec-15-10 11:00 PM by Me.
This thread alone deserves a star. Just saying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks!
I'd like to think I make a good contribution to this forum. And not only did I send a check, but I made a fund-raising suggestion for DU that I am in a unique position to help with. Maybe the powers-that-be here have me on "ignore"? Ha!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. You have one now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks, though
I did pay for one .... hopefully, Skinner will give it to someone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rtassi Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
121. DU should consider paying anyone who can reason and write as you do
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. He has one now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
50. Very Cool Of You
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
122. I See You Have Earned A Gold Star For This Thread
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R Thank you so much for this wonderful essay.
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. How dare you!
Think for yourself?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. I'm very sorry.
I don't know what got into me. It was probably listening to that trouble-maker John Lennon, saying that the Beatles were more popular than Elvis. I'm going to Confession in the morning, and then sending a large contribution to Pat Boone's "Love America" campaign. Please forgive me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent post, H2OMan
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well Said
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thinking should always be in season. K&R!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. KandR.
Thank you...


peace~
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. KandR!
:bounce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. Great post
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. Please keep writing.
K&R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Hello, Brother David!
Good to see you, as always!

Hey -- in January, if possible, get a copy of Rubin Carter's new book. It's simply outstanding. I think that you'll enjoy it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
29. Great post. Thank you.
Don't be afraid to repost this verbatim when you think it's necessary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. +1. Right on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. The Waterman....
in the top echelon of DU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks H2o man.
Edited on Thu Dec-16-10 02:09 AM by pa28
An active citizen of a Republic should never sacrifice critical thinking or rational self interest to a personality cult.

"Chill the Fuck out I've got this" was funny and cute in 2008 but now it leaves me wanting to reach for the nearest bottle of vodka. As an old political science professor of mine would preach "a citizen must be vigilant to maintain a democratic government". The party or ideology did not matter. His law was that you must always be skeptical, informed and engaged. I think he had it right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
84. A popular sentiment -- unfortunately, lately monopolized by Teabaggers and militia nuts.
Yet it rightly expresses the guiding principles of the people least likely to join either group.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Leonard_H._Courtney
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
33. I vow to be a constant threat to the herd forevermore
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
87. +100K
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
True_Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
116. +1000
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
34. Excellent. Needs to be said again and again.
Sweet pooch!

And what's the title of Rubin's new book?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
35. I cannot recommend this enough!
Yes, you are right. It is bullying. There has been a lot of it here.

All of the people who consider themselves loyalists, who insist that they are better democrats than others because they only and always vote for democrats across the board are mostly just pathetic. They are announcing that they don't really care about issues. They basically just have a favorite team and support that team no matter what it does. (Rah rah rah)

But when they take that next step to demanding that everyone must be just like them, then it really is bullying.

Nobody should be required to support candidates over issues.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
36. Totally excellent
Brilliant post - deep, insightful, and nearly all true.

But why question authority? They'll only lie to you. Wikileaks exists to answer that sort of question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libmom74 Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
37. K&R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Granny M Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
Thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
40. being more compassionate, and trying to enlighten, is not
authoritarianism.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
41. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
42. Yes, we need to grow up as a society
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
43. I agree 100% and it has caused me a lot of trouble or you might call them life lessons!
I don't think I would want to or even could change.

Great post H2O man!

Here's a toast to my brothers and sisters who walk the long road with me.

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
46. kick'd and rec'd


What you said
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
disillusioned73 Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
47. Most excellent OP.....
Thank you..:dem:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
48. K&R
I would say "ditto!" but I see "ditto" as symbolic of this kind of herd mentality promoted by Rush Limbaugh and the Republicans.

There are Republicans on DU posing as Democrats. I think we can all agree about that. I believe these stealth Republicans sometimes reveal themselves when they protest a bit too strongly when others step out of the proscribed limitations of thought on a specific issue. Or, thinking outside the box, so to speak.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
49. K & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
51. i couldn't bear to have my kids become contented cows.
the biggest reason that i chose to homeschool my kids was that i could not bear to think of them turning into complacent followers. with only a couple of exceptions, every conversation that i had with people about what i was doing at some point brought up "the s word". how will the poor darlings be socialized? i knew from the predictability of this question that it was something deep seated. and i knew from my attempts to answer it, and what would be accepted as an answer, that they did not mean- how will they find friends and learn to play nice? what they really meant was- how will they be indoctrinated into following authority? clearly i was not teaching them to shut up, sit still, and march in straight lines.

i was not the world's greatest homeschooler. i am not an orderly, organized person. the kids all survived, tho, and they are weirdos like me. i fear schools are becoming more and more authoritarian. it does not bode well for our democracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
117. +1 nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #117
125. +1 (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
52. Kick, Rec & Quibble
I must have missed something here. What does psychiatry have to do with the development of authoritarian-personality theory, the California F Scale and all of that?

Which of the people on this list are/were psychiatrists? In which psychiatric journals did they publish their research?

Theodor Adorno
Else Frenkel-Brunswick
Daniel Levenson
Nevitt Sanford
Bob Altemeyer
Edward Shils
John L. Martin
etc.

Other than that, this is a beautiful and insightful piece.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. Re; Quibble
I have to rely on my own education in this, and so I'll go with Arthur S. Reber, fully aware that you will say that he (and Erich Fromm) are/were psychologists, not psychiatrists. Please forgive me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #62
83. Re: Reber--
Never play poker with him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
53. This is one of your best! Wish I could recommend it more than once.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
54. -snip-
For if democratic politicians can take for granted that the herd will support them, no matter how many times they betray our best interests, then brothers and sisters, we have tied our own hands, and do not deserve democratic representation. We have then betrayed our own interests, and that of our families and friends.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #54
66. This needs repeating --
I finally came to that conclusion myself. If people of both parties just continue to put the X after the approprite Party label regardless of how effectively that candidate represents their interests, then we are facilitating our own doom.

Enough.

I am done with that shit -- no more enabling from me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
107. Quitting a bad habit?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
55. Thank you for saying it so beautifully. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
56. K&R. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
57. Aha you try to disguise yourself with a cute little puppy....
we all know what a troublemaker you are!!! B-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
58. An excellent piece, and an important point. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
59. OUTSTANDING post. This cannot be recommended enough.
I don't think we really understand the necessity for a participatory democracy. Our apathy and our near complete abdication of minimum principled standards to Democratic candidates (especially the "leaders" of the party) are killing us and watering down our policy policy/legislation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
60. Authoritarians just want to be feared.
"The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it." -- Adolf Hitler

Thank you for an outstanding essay, H20 Man. Democracy is the exact opposite of Tyranny.

PS: H20 Man = Integrity. Yes, sir!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
90. +1
When you strip away the fluff, that's the core of the problem.

:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Howler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
61. WOW!!!!!!
A very good read! Thank you H2o.:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
63. Excellent post, and much needed
Thank you, H2O Man!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
64. Well said
It hits our countrys biggest problem right between the eyes. It's a little more obvious with the right, but most people in America have their thoughts spoon fed to them. So many things that "Ditto Heads" cling to as facts could be proven false with only a few minutes of THOUGHT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
65. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
67. Thank you to all
who have taken the time to read and respond to this OP. I certainly appreciate it!

Under abnormal circumstances, I would like to respond to each and every person who posted here. Alas, I am busy working on an important book review .... with a deadline. But I am definitely reading every response, and very much enjoying them.

Peace,
Pat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
69. K&R for critical thinking
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
70. K & R ++++
Great post, thanks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
71. Well Said!
And I like the puppy too!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. He's my
87 lb "lap dog" now. Insists on sitting on my lap all the time. If he ends up as big as his father, I'll be in real trouble!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. No doubt!
Thanks again for the post. Well written and cuts to the core of the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
73. Well put h2o man. nm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
75. We are evolutionary herd animals.....
embrace and understand this my friend, and you will have harnessed the only true power, the power of the politician.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. Respectfully disagree.
That "power" is Kundalini, which keeps the herd hypnotized.

True power is found in the individual's awakening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Yes!
"True power is found in the individual's awakening." :applause:

And we are all on our own path, so we awake when circumstances align for us at different times. Here is to bringing circumstance to fellow travelers to help them to awake. :toast:


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #80
124. Interesting that there are two schools of thought about Kundalini.
Most people see it as the life-force, the power responsible for the individual's awakening. But others like Gurdjieff have a more negative view. That seems to be the one you are taking when you call it the power that keeps the herd hypnotized.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
76. K & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
77. Great post...
...although I was sorely tempted to reply with my standard one-liner when told to question authority:

Who are you to tell me to question authority?

:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
78. Bless you, H20 Man.
First, I want to hug your dog. Second, Thanks for the insightful post. QUESTION AUTHORITY was one of the main values I taught my kids and I`m proud to say they`re still independent, free-range thinkers, several decades later.

Being bullied into "accepting the unacceptable" just doesn`t sit right with me and it never will. The policies and people I was against under George W. Bush are the same policies and people I`m against today, even though our Democratic president is for many of them. I`m not really all that interested in genuflecting before Democratic leaders...no matter what...I`m more interested in supporting policies and issues that herald the progressive ideals of social and economic justice.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
81. This is an excellent essay.
Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
82. Great post
Edited on Thu Dec-16-10 12:54 PM by JonLP24
and it reminds me exactly of something John Turley said a couple years ago.

He was explaining someone like Bush or whoever that clearly has a corrupt agenda will break legal barriers anyway they can. However those kind of people are not the biggest threat to our Justice system and whatever legal protections there are. It is someone who has a good heart but finds it difficult due to legal barriers to get after whoever he/she believes to be the "bad guy" so he/she does it what they can.

Like I said it was two years ago to get into specifics and I would like to explain better what he meant but when I heard him say it originally it made perfect sense. I believe you touch on it in your differences of "authority" in a way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
85. How about this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nicky187 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
86. Great dog...
... and even better posting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
91. Excellent. K&R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
92. Brilliant! Thank You.
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
93. Thank you! That is one of the best posts I have ever read on DU!!
Edited on Thu Dec-16-10 03:00 PM by BrklynLiberal
I ma not at all surprised that it was you who posted it.

I would suggest that this post be pinned to the top of GD & GD/P for a few months.

I would recommend some George Lakoff reading to those interested in how to get one's message across. He is someone the Democrats have totally ignored, much to their peril..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
94. #198 rec
As always, you have nailed it.
BHN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
95. Amen
...pass the peas and ammunition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
96. Without a doubt, the best post I have ever seen on DU
Thank you. I have printed it and am keeping it. The climate here is a little frightening for some of us right now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
97. Bravo, H2OMan! K&R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mstinamotorcity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
98. Well Quite an interesting op H2O Man
Most people are in their emotions and have let republicans tap into that. When they are stimulated with every vice known to man, it is hard for them to have critical thinking. Most have let Republicans and some on the left too, take their spirit of challenge away.They see a washed out road, they look for ways to go around,or by pass altogether. When you can build a better road with more durable materials and change its design to prevent future problems. We have become an instant society. Especially when it suits us. Years of bad economic policies,are somehow to miraculously disappear with an election of President. They want what they perceive as CHANGE, but will not CHANGE themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
99. Very good advice here:
Edited on Thu Dec-16-10 03:24 PM by sabrina 1
In every situation, as adults, we should be thinking for ourselves. You and I should have enough trust in ourselves to trust our own insights and judgment. And anyone who tells you not to think for yourself sure as heck is not your friend. No, do not allow yourselves to be reduced to cattle or sheep, like the republicans that you know, or see on television. Also, have a conscience: help our confused and frightened democratic friends and associates to find the strength to think for their selves That is the best hope for the real Democratic Party today. Nothing less will do.



Being raised in a country that endured 800 years of oppression it comes naturally to question authority.

But Americans have never experienced the horrors of the silencing thoughts and opinions on a grand scale from outside forces. Sometimes the enemy is within. We take the freedoms earned by the founders of this country, far too much for granted. And as a result, are far more willing to follow than those who have a recent history of how that turns out.

Still, it is encouraging to see so many people resisting the pressure to just go along, even if there are consequences.

Great post, thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
100. That puppy sure knows how to write.
Sassy crackpot Sarah P. should be sinking some of her millions into ES&S if her plans include being the female Dubya.

http://www.thelandesreport.com/VotingMachineErrors.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Daemonaquila Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
101. Perfect.
Great analysis of the poisonous "toe the line" mentality. I think a lot of people will be keeping a link for whenever someone starts yelling "If you don't vote for _______________, YOU ARE CREATING PRESIDENT PALIN!!!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
102. K & R, Good thought and analysis as always, but the puppy is killer
87 lbs lab (lap) dog you say. Yes that is what they do, I know this from experience.

Here is some brain food for your cerebral digestion:

THE PSYCHOPATH - The Mask of Sanity

link: http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

Another DU poster posted this a week or so ago. It is a interesting read. My apologies for not remembering who!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
103. Well said. Bravo!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
104. Recommended for sanity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
105. I'm sorry I missed this and am so late to the party. A hearty K&R.
The bleating and mooing sounds are often so loud in some places as to stifle thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
106. Gracious!
I am overwhelmed by the wonderful responses to this OP !!!

(And I finished my review of Dr. Rubin "Hurricane" Carter's new book. That was a bit difficult for me, because I am such close friends with "the Rube." But in a bit, I'll have more time to respond to the Good People here.)

I note that one person's message -- which attempted to hit me with a bitter jab -- was deleted. I understand and appreciate the moderators' job, and accept and definitely support the good work that they do. But I also enjoy the attacks. Ha!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
108. I get paid to question authority
It's not a bad gig.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
109. I only regret I have but one rec to give to this post.
Seriously important stuff. We are honored by your intelligence on this board.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
110. r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
111. Question authority?
ALWAYS!

And if you find yourself in a position of authority, then question yourself, because anyone else with half a brain will, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
112. k
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
113. Happy holidays, H20 Man.
Let me see, if I remember correctly it was my parents who told me about Santa Claus.
And the Easter bunny.
And the tooth fairy.
And Jesus.

Next year President Obama will be the President of the United States when the 10th anniversary of the attacks of September 11th happened.
But, I don't think we will know any more about how they occurred then, than we know now.

He will also be the President of the United States for the 70th anniversary of the attack at Pearl Harbor. I think most of the questions about how that occurred were answered.

But, there are still lingering questions about the assassination of JFK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
True_Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
114. Thank You H20 Man!
I always enjoy reading your posts!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
115. My K&R was part of a deleted subthread, so I'm kicking again...

:applause:

Brilliant, as always!

:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-10 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
118. Just as good on a second reading! Thank you, H2O Man!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rtassi Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
119. Very well written as usual, with the added benefit of being true! ...
You appear very close to the edge of a spiritual path ... Working from the inside out perhaps ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
120. Excellent post
Love the puppy :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
123. Yes. It is a matter of conscience
and freakin' common sense
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 07th 2024, 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC