It is treason to buy and sell new foreign made goods?

[SmileyRose]

I realize there are people at the bottom of the economic ladder who just need a pair of shoes and lack the ability to scour the planet for USA made shoes. I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about the retail industry, industrial and commercial buyers, government buyers, retail customers who can but just don't care who gets hurt so they can cram one more new pair of cheap shoes into that lug under the bed because all 4 walk in closets are overflowing.

Is it treason?

ya know I wouldn't mind if we brought a few big time buyers up on charges, if convicted take away the wealth and make them live on $100 a year for a couple years --- since they think that's a "living wage".

[CBGLuthier]

1. No

[cali]

2. sigh. no. it's hard to imagine a more ludicrous application of the word treason.

[SmileyRose]

4. I do mean in the wider sense, not in an overthrow of the government sense.

I assumed that was a given.

trea·son
    Show IPA
noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

[badtoworse]

3. Ridiculous OP

Treat yourself to a dictionary and look up the word treason.

[SmileyRose]

5. Defined.

trea·son
    Show IPA
noun
1.
the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2.
a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3.
the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.


You can disagree with me and you obviously do. But I think there's more than one person that MIGHT agree that our government and biggest institutional buyer refusing to hire Americans would be a breach of faith.

[badtoworse]

8. You should stop. You're making a fool out of yourself.

How can you call it treason when the foreign made goods are cheaper because of MFN status that was granted by our government and free trade agreements that were executed by our own government? Why don't you do a little research and look up some cases where people were actually convicted of treason? I think you will see a profound difference when compared to what you are suggesting.

[ET Awful]

11. Let's stick with the relevant definition of treason -

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." - U.S. Constitution, Article 3, Section 3.

[ashling]

20. Your use of the word would countenance

Rick Perry's abuse of that word. Treason is specifically spelled out in the US constitution precisely because of an abuse of the concept for hundreds of years before. For instance, when Henry VIII was on his deathbed and it was obvious that he would die momentarily, his doctors were loathe to say so because it was treason to countenance the death of the king.

[DaveJ]

21. It is worth thinking about

Anything that threatens the welfare of this country could fall into such a category.

I am sorry that people who disagree are not being nice in the process. I hope this is not typical of the way Democrats treat people who's opinions or ideas are in the vast minority. I often wonder how many votes the Democrats lose as a result of being just plain mean.

[SmileyRose]

29. Fortunately

I'm just barely smart enough to know I'm not very smart and have a pretty thick skin. The spelling police, the grammar police and wrong word police have a lot of fun with me. I don't mind. If they beat up on me over the net instead of someone in real life, I figure I did someone a service.

Someone down thread said "unpatriotic" and that's really closer to the meaning I was getting at. Fortunately for me, most people on the DU are kind enough to look at the meanings instead of getting all offended over a word choice.

[badtoworse]

33. My apologies if I came down on you too hard

There are certain words that are routinely misused on DU, and as a result, those words have become virtually meaningless. "Fascist", "racist" and "terrorist" are good examples: How many times do you see someone confronting Obama on a purely political matter called a racist? How often do people with opposing political ideology get called terrorists or fascists? Unfortunately, the word "treason" is often abused here in the same way. Rarely is the use of those words appropriate in the context in which they were used. I believe it's usually an attempt at hyperbole by the poster, but it's become so common here that it has little impact and in my opinion, it reflects poorly on the poster. I find that kind of posting frustrating and sometimes I call the poster on it. Your use of the word "treason" was apparently just a mistake and once again, I'm sorry if I was harsh.

I do agree with you that American organizations and individuals should try to buy American made products. I always do. Unfortunately, they are often not easy to find or even available.

[badtoworse]

34. You make a very good point

The language and the level of civility on DU frequently leaves much to be desired (I'm sometimes guilty too). I doubt that many non-partisan voters would be attracted to our ideology based on what is commonly posted here. Forget right-wingers - you never change anybody's mind with insults.

Anyone can read what is posted here. We would be well served to remember that

[Kurmudgeon]

6. Buying foreign isn't treason, it's just economic suicide.

[dionysus]

19. trade isn' the problem. countries have had trade industries as long as there have been countries.

it's fucked up trade deals that are the problem.

[Kurmudgeon]

32. Trade deals don't force people to spend their money on imports.

I don't have to walk into a Toyota, or Honda or whatever dealership, so I don't.
I do agree these foreign corporations have too much advantage in the US home market though.

[dionysus]

39. no, they don't. in the old days, you'd have tariffs on those toyotas.

then again it's more complex now, when you have foreign companies assembling their products here...

[Kurmudgeon]

42. It's still foreign corporations wielding too much influence,controlling too much of the US economy.

If you could see how many Toyota commercials there are on the local news channel every night, it's almost like something out of an Orwellian nightmare.

[MADem]

7. No, it's conspicuous overconsumption, but not treason.

And frankly, I don't think there are a ton of Americans who are lining up to work in sneaker sweatshops or grunt manufacturing. We decry the loss of these jobs, but I do not know a soul who would be enthused about spending a career hunched over a sewing machine. Same deal with the fruit pickers--no one wants to do that backbreaking work.

In years to come, robots will be doing most of that work, anyway. There will come a point in time where no one wants to do that kind of work, and robots will be cheaper than humans--the day has not quite come, yet.

I would like to see America grow more high tech jobs, in the science-research/computer/medical/engineering games. I can't help but observe that if the AMA didn't see scarcity in medical care as a good thing (to keep salaries high), we wouldn't have to import doctors to achieve basic coverage. If we had a few more med schools, we could start EXporting doctors and other medical professionals--and that would be a good thing.

[madokie]

9. I don't know about treason but unconscionable maybe

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Would you call it 'treason' to buy foreign oil? Over half the oil sold in the US is

I think you need to replace the word 'treason' with 'unpatriotic' for your argument to make any sense at all.

[SmileyRose]

25. Unpatriotic

actually that is a better word for what I'm talking about.

THANKS!!

[bowens43]

12. No , it isn't.

[Romulox]

13. No, but it is RIDICULOUS to put a "SOLIDARITY!" bumper sticker on a Prius!

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

14. Bizarre.

[Romulox]

15. Oh, it's no more "bizarre" than DU's (several!) Toyota-drivin' "Labor leaders"

We live in a time of cognitive dissonance!

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. "Bottom of the economic ladder"?

I'm guessing that probably includes quite a few people who frequent this forum; there was a recent discussion about this subject more or less, and a common descriptor for a pair of shoes that cost $100+ was "expensive". Personally? I'll happily spend more on something that'll last longer because of the quality of the materials and workmanship. The shoes I currently wear most often have seen nine years of almost daily wear and are still in quite reasonable condition. With some things you get what you pay for.

And honestly? "Foreign made" is not the issue. The issue is with goods whose production has been outsourced to countries like China, Malaysia, Thailand, and so on with low labour costs that developed countries can't hope to compete with, with no minimum wage laws or unions for the protection of workers, with no health and safety regulations or very lax health and safety standards. The same goods made in countries which are comparable in wage levels and so on to the US? Not a problem; they compete in terms of quality and not price, and are produced in countries where workers enjoy a decent wage for their labour and protections that workers in China or wherever don't have at all. Given the choice between "Made in China" or "Made in (US/EU/Canada)" I'll opt for the latter (and let's not forget also that a lot of goods manufactured in Canada/UK/Germany/etc are also "union made"; labour solidarity shouldn't stop at the US border, should it?).

[SmileyRose]

22. A point well stated and well taken.

Thanks.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. OMG! I think I've committed partial treason!!

I've ordered a new car where most of the parts are from other countries and the car is assembled here in Australia! What's the punishment for that? I know I won't sleep well tonight dwelling on the atrocity I've committed!

[Llewlladdwr]

18. No. What a ridiculous idea. NT

[Shagbark Hickory]

23. Why stop there? Why not only buy things made in your state?

[SmileyRose]

28. I work pretty hard at it.

I try hard not to consume buy at all unless it's a real necessity. Once a necessity arises - as in the thing I have now is beyond repair or a new need presents itself, I have a kind of path I follow.

1. Can I make do with something else I already own?
2. Can I borrow?
3. Can I get this used and the original was made local?
4. Can I get this used and the original was made in Georgia?
5. Can I get this used and made in the USA by union workers?
ad nauseum until I get to "no choice but to buy made in slave labor countries because the fuckers in charge took away the other choices" as last resort.

But I do drive and I do own a number of plastic items, foreign oil that supports terrorism, wars, pain and suffering around the globe, environmental disasters etc. I've yet to quite work out how to manage in this modern world I was born into without doing so and am more than a little disgusted regarding that fact.

[Shagbark Hickory]

30. If you had a choice of buying a product made by slaves in the US vs a product made by a fair trade

company in a foreign country, what would you choose?
Before you answer, remember that the domestic neoslave drivers are pocketing the profit and not paying a living wage or even hiring documented workers for that matter. The foreign country is paying a living wage, has good safe working conditions and the profit isn't going to executives who cheat on their taxes.

[SmileyRose]

31. I'm not quite sure I understand your question.

If I understand you correctly,

Say the handle on my garden hoe breaks (and it did). I've spent the summer swapping handles between tools (making do)
then the handle on the rake busted (yes I'm tough on handles but you should try growing food in my yard! :))
I borrowed a garden hoe from a friend until I could figure out a handle or two for my own tools and eventually ended up in the local salvage shop - walked out with 2 new to me handles for 50 cents each. No origin label on them.

Now it's possible they were made in the early 1800's by Georgia slaves, they are pretty dirty and beat up, but I doubt they are that old.
Or by grossly underpaid labor some where on the planet. (what we now call slave labor) Since I see no brand or label on the handles it's a crap shoot in that regard.

The only way I know to answer your question is that I'll take my 50 cents a piece salvaged handles from wherever they came from originally over the only other ones I seemed to be able to find made in one far off country or another in spite of the fact Georgia has plenty of trees and unemployed people that would probably be happy to run trees through a handle making machine rather than spend another 3 years applying for jobs with no response whatsoever.

I'm not sure that actually answers the question though..... sorry.

[Shagbark Hickory]

40. Ok, then lets run with the garden hoe handle example.

If you had a choice, not of a local group of handle makers (lets say you couldn't source a handle locally or pull one off something else) but instead had only these choices....


Factory A:
is a very large handle factory in southern Texas that uses some imported raw materials and some materials gained from unsustainable methods like chopping down cypress trees. And because the pay is terrible and the factory isn't air conditioned and it's located in texas where there is plenty of desperate cheap labor to be found and little by way of legislation, they aren't paying their workers a living wage and the working conditions are terrible. Rather than profit that comes in from their contract supplying handles to walmart going to air conditioning the factory or paying the workers a living wage, the profits go straight to the execs at the company who use it to buy things like yachts and politicians.

Factory B:
is a smaller factory in Indonesia located in a small community that is on the up & up thanks to global trade. They don't use materials sourced in the US but they do use materials gained from sustainable methods. Rather than an executive board keeping all the profits for themselves, the workers at factory B get paid a living wage and are guaranteed the right to organize. They don't live with the constant threat of deportation either. The sales of their garden hoe handles to other countries literally brings the workers out of poverty and keeps them there.

Those are your choices...
Factory A, made in the USA
Factory B, made in Indonesia

Take your pick.

[SmileyRose]

41. Interesting hypothetical

but because I'll be standing in the ace hardware with the ONLY info being "made in USA" versus "Made in Indonesia" I know my choice would be "Made in USA". Right or wrong. That WOULD be my choice.

And if I were to find out later the USA factory that made my handle was abusing workers I'd be first in line with my garden hoe (or pitch fork) to demand better for them.

I have nothing against the Chinese or the Indonesians or anybody else. One planet one people IMHO. But I'm not willing to look my own neighbor in the face who's desperately trying to keep a house and tell them I sent my money to Indonesia instead.

[treestar]

24. It's not treason

I wouldn't call it that. But I would try to find USA made products if possible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. The US Government is supposed to buy made in American

so you could break the law if you order oh... berets from China... (Happened with the Army and the people in charge got punished)

But after that... no, it is not.

[Zywiec]

27. "I wouldn't mind if we brought a few big time buyers up on charges"

:crazy:

[Iggo]

36. Boi-oi-oi-oi-oi-oing!

Woop! Woop! Woo-hoo!

:crazy:

[Iggo]

35. Of course not.

[RB TexLa]

37. No, people outside of the US are just as deserving of work. They are equal human beings to us, you

know.

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. I guess I'd look up the word treason before posting something like this...

But that's just me.

[B Calm]

43. In my own mind I think it's treasonous for a US company to close down a

factory and go overseas to make the product with cheaper labor, then send it back here to sell.

Is it legal, yes, thank to these free trade deals. .

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. If that were true, there would be a growth industry in handcuffs and prisons.

The problem being that about 99% of the workforce would be under arrest.