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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:38 PM
Original message
Andrew Jackson Dueled Over Non-Political Issues....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson

"The controversy surrounding their marriage remained a sore point for Jackson, who deeply resented attacks on his wife's honor. Jackson fought 13 duels, many nominally over his wife's honor. Charles Dickinson, the only man Jackson ever killed in a duel, had been goaded into angering Jackson by Jackson's political opponents. In the duel, fought over a horse-racing debt and an insult to his wife on May 30, 1806, Dickinson shot Jackson in the ribs before Jackson returned the fatal shot; Jackson allowed Dickinson to shoot first, knowing him to be an excellent shot, and as his opponent reloaded, Jackson shot, even as the bullet lodged itself in his chest. The bullet that struck Jackson was so close to his heart that it could never be safely removed. Jackson had been wounded so frequently in duels that it was said he "rattled like a bag of marbles."<51> At times he coughed up blood, and he experienced considerable pain from his wounds for the rest of his life."



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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. "..goaded into angering Jackson by Jackson's political opponents." nt
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. I was just thinking about Andrew Jackson today.
I was wondering if there has been anyone close to the White House who is as stupid as he was. Palin was the only one who leapt to mind.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. No one calls Jackson Stupid, they may hate his policies, but no one ever called him Stupid
Jackson understood the country better then any other politician of his time period. His defense of New Orleans was near perfect. He had enough regular troops to keep the British at bay and was able to use the militia to build his defenses and man those defenses and prevent the British from taking New Orleans. Jackson either ordered, based on his own knowledge, or after listening to locals, to install bails of Cotton underneath his earthworks built to stop the British. His trenches were dry and strong, while the British were standing in mud.

His Wars with the Southern Indians were well executed, you may dislike the idea that he attacks villages filled with Women and Children but that is war, and he fought it to a solution. Please note he fought the Creeks with Indian allies (He once made an offer to the Creeks to sell land and his aide, an Cherokee, realized the land being asked for was Cherokee land not Creek land and objected, it was NOT stupidity that caused Jackson to ask the Creeks to Sell Cherokee lands, but an effort to get those lands cheaply).

His fight with the Bank of the US to regain control over US Currency was opposed by the money establishment of the US at that time, but he won, and was the last President to eliminate the debt (All US Debts come from 1837, the year he left office).

Jackson supported a moderate tariff for revenue (i.e. the Democratic Position from Jackson till FDR, the highest tariff possible that brings in the most money to the treasury, the GOP after the Civil War wanted even higher tariffs and the Tariff became the made differences between the parties till FDR). Jackson liked Presidential Candidates being picked in a Convention of the leaders of the Party, previously the Candidate had been picked by members of Congress of that political party.

Jackson wanted every male to have the ability to vote. That sounds conservative now for he did NOT support voting rights for African Americans or Women, but up till Jackson, many of the poor could not vote for their did not own enough land. While Jackson did NOT end that rule, it died under him.

On the issue of a united United States, he stood up to South Carolina's attempt to nullify the Federal Tariff. He had to rely on the Militia of North Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia to do so (Jackson threaten the use of Federal Troops and those State's Militia against South Carolina, South Carolina backed down. The down side of this is those three states were also the states where the last of the Five Civilized Tribes lived, thus the Militia used to threaten South Carolina was paid off by giving them land of those tribes. You had to pay them some how, the Tariff did not bring in that much money and Congress was NOT about to pass any internal taxation (The Civil War would force the US to Adopt an Income Tax and that was 30 years later).

As to the Indian Removal. The plan was quite fine, if the Indians had co-operated the lost of life would have been minimal. The plan was to move the tribes in five small shipments. The Cherokees objected and even won in the US Supreme Court, but then Jackson made his famous comment "Let the court enforce its Judgment". Given that the Militia of Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina had already started to removal (for they wanted the land), and those were the troops he had to rely on to enforce the US Supreme Court Order, that was about all he could do. The removal was made worse by the discovery of Gold in the Cherokee's land, which caused all three states to order their Militia to remove the Cherokee as soon as possible, not in the five stages Jackson had proposed. Thus you had a army with supplies for 1/5 of the people that walked on the Trail of Tears.

One last comment, when the Trail of Tears became, it was 1837, the Country had gone through an election, electing Martin Van Bureau President. Van Bureau was President when the Cherokees were removed not Jackson. Jackson had made clear his plans to remove the Tribes and had had Congress pass the law permitting such removal and while the Supreme Court had ruled Jackson could NOT remove the Cherokees, it was clear he was going to do so AFTER the election. This black stain was NOT enough to get the American People to vote against Jackson's hand picked selection for President. You may want to blame Jackson, but he was doing what most Americans wanted done and most Americans show they support by their votes for Van Bureau. The opposition to Jackson refused to even use it as an attack on the Democratic Party. Instead the opposition picked five Candidates, popular in five different regions of the Country to run, hoping that each of the Candidate could win their region and force the election into the House of Representatives. Thus the opposition saw opposing Removal as a lost issue.

Jackson did several other actions while President, he convinced Sam Houston to leave the Cherokee tribe he was living with (And had moved to Arkansas as part of the Removal plan, but did so early so avoided most of the hazards of the Trail of Tears) to go to Texas. Jackson saw in Houston and man of political and military Genius who could lead and win a war of Independence for Texas against Mexico.

Jackson also could attack his political enemies. Davy Crockett had been a follower of Jackson in 1830, but by 1832 it was clear that Jackson was NOT going to permit homesteading on the frontier (Homesteading would NOT come in law till 1864, as part of the Civil War Reforms). Jackson also opposed Crockett's proposed law abolishing debts so to help Western Farmers. Do to these opposition (and opposition to the Indian Removal Act) Crockett became an opponent to Jackson in 1832 and 1834. In 1834 Jackson opposition to Crockett was so complete, Crockett finally lost the seat (and 1834 opposition not only came from Jackson, but from Governor Sam Houston and Speaker of the House, and later President Polk). Jackson could and would use anything he could to defeat his opposition and he did it to Crockett. No vindictiveness on the part of Jackson, just power politics.

Another example is Jackson invasion of then Spanish Florida in 1818 and hanging a British Subject. Jackson offended two foreign countries for each of those acts, but acts he thought were needed to to the Seminoles being encouraged to raid across the border into the US by the British Agent in Florida protected by Spain. His Action caused problems, Secretary of War wanted him executed, the Secretary of State saw this as a opportunity to force the issue of Florida. Spain issued their objection but quickly came to an understanding that Florida was a ticking time bomb between Spain and the US, and sold Florida to the US, justify Jackson's actions (No one cared about the British Agent being hanged). Jackson saw a problem and a way to end it. Forcing Spain to do something about Florida.

Side note, the two cabinet officials did the above, but no one talked to Jackson about it for years. It was not till AFTER he was elected President that Jackson found out his opponent in 1824 and the man he defeated in 1828 had been the one who SUPPORTED him in 1818, Jackson's Vice President of 1828 had been the cabinet member who wanted him hanged in 1818. Jackson had been in the field from 1812-1820 so missed the interaction in Washington and assumed his boss, the Secretary of War, would defend him for that what Jackson would have done when it came to someone under his command. That the VP had NOT supported Jackson and advocated Jackson execution did not built up his esteem in Jackson's mind (and until Agnew in 1973, the only Vice President to ever resign). Shows Jackson willing to change when change was needed.

Just pointing out, none of what Jackson did indicate stupidity, you may disagree with his policies and politics but you can not call him stupid.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. First of all, Jackson got lucky at New Orleans.
Ask any military historian that's actually credible, and you'll learn that.

As to his stupidity, I point out his semi-literacy.

Somewhat clever? Perhaps. But I stand by calling Jackson stupid.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. New Orleans is an Army;s nightmare to defend without a fleet
And that what Jackson had to deal with, no fleet and to hold New Orleans. He stayed in New Orleans proper till it was clear where the British would attack, and reacted to that plan. That was the best way to handle the many attack avenues to New Orleans. A similar policy was British policy for centuries to counter any invasion. Hold the Army in the middle of the Country and attack on whatever coast the enemy landed on. King Harold adopted that position when facing the Danes and William the Conqueror, Elizabeth I did the same when facing the Spanish Armada (George III did the same during the American Revolution when the combined Spanish and French Fleets sailed by Britain after 1778). In regards to Britain and New Orleans when the enemy has several different avenues of attack, stay in the center till it is clear which way they are coming and attack. That is why, no one every really criticize Jackson's defense plan, it was the one most people would adopt.

Once the British plans were clear, then and only then did Jackson move, attacking the advance force AND containing them. The British could have attempted a by pass of his position but they did not, believing their naval superiority was enough to force the issue. Jackson stopped the invasion and did NOTHING stupid in doing so (For example he refused to commit his forces till he was certain of the enemy's location).

As to his semi-literacy, how does that equal stupidity? Most Americans could not read and write before the 1840s (and in the South most Southerns could not read and write till after the Civil War). This advancement in reading had more to do with pulp paper replacing linen paper and the introduction of forced education in the north in the 1840s and the South during Re-Construction.

Furthermore, the lack of an ability to read and write does not make someone stupid. Charlemagne was noted for having a limited ability to read and write, but was considered the greatest King of the Dark Ages. Genghis Khan had, at best, a limited ability to read and write yet he establish the Mongol Empire in the 1200s (and the army that made that Empire). Kit Carson, was made a General in the US Army during the Civil War do to his ability and knowledge of the Southwest, and it was clear he could not read and write at all (As a General in the American West of the 1860s he was entitled to a "Translator" but Kit Carson knew all of the local native American languages so did not need a "translator" except for written document and thus his "Translator" only spoke English but could read and write).

You cite the Battle of New Orleans, but do not say why it shows he was Lucky, it is clear you just hate Jackson's policies without understanding them or his time period. To have a difference set of values is not Stupidity, and he differently had a different set of values then most people on DU, and that appears to be why you hate him, you do not what to understand him or his time period.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Blah, blah, blah.
So I "clearly" hate Jackson and his policies without understanding him or his time period? I also don't understand the Battle of New Orleans?

Wow. Guess my History degree and my time at the Army War College were all wasted, huh?

And btw, your blind hero-worship of Jackson is pretty damned nauseating.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. In a dual both are armed and both agree to it and the rules
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some guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. kick
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