Postal Service on verge of going broke, shutting down

[rsmith6621]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44396682/ns/business-us_business/#.TmTDa46ulGw


The United States Postal Service has long lived on the financial edge, but it has never been as close to the precipice as it is today: the agency is so low on cash that it will not be able to make a $5.5 billion payment due this month and may have to shut down entirely this winter unless Congress takes emergency action to stabilize its finances.

“Our situation is extremely serious,” the postmaster general, Patrick R. Donahoe, said in an interview. “If Congress doesn’t act, we will default.”

In recent weeks, Mr. Donahoe has been pushing a series of painful cost-cutting measures to erase the agency’s deficit, which will reach $9.2 billion this fiscal year. They include eliminating Saturday mail delivery, closing up to 3,700 postal locations and laying off 120,000 workers — nearly one-fifth of the agency’s work force — despite a no-layoffs clause in the unions’ contracts.

*********************************

So is the republican congress going to KILL THIS OFF??????

[DCBob]

1. what bogus hype... the USPS is not going to shut down.

there are numerous things that can be done to resolve the crisis.

[Occulus]

45. And we've been doing those things.

Thousands upon thousands of employees have left the USPS, thousands more have been pushed out of their current positions into new offices, as locations consolidate and local offices are closed. Several whole distribution centers have been shuttered and postal management is looking at getting rid of the no-layoff clause (that's the one that keeps us from going on strike), abrogating the negotiated and legally binding contracts with the unions, and other things.

The point is that those things have not been enough because of the requirement to prefund postal retiree health benefits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. +1 Brazilion

[DCBob]

117. What things? I did not mention any.

Ok, so here are some..

-- reduce to 3 days a week deliver.
-- close unnecessary offices.
-- increase cost of junk mail delivery.
-- increase cost of postage.
-- remove requirement to prefund retiree health benefits.

Bottom line.. the USPS will not be shut down. There are solutions... maybe not pleasant/easy ones but there are solutions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Let's take them one by one

-- reduce to 3 days a week deliver.

That will make them less competitive with the private sector... no more.

-- close unnecessary offices.

It is already being done...

-- increase cost of junk mail delivery.

Talk to congress
-- increase cost of postage.

Talk to congress
-- remove requirement to prefund retiree health benefits.

We agree, talk to congress and the President. There are DEMOCRATIC BILLS that will never see the floor this congress.

[DCBob]

126. USPS agrees with me..

Yoerger (USPS spokeswoman) agrees her agency does not have a sustainable business model, but stopped short of saying a shutdown is possible. One answer is to adjust those mandated payments. "We want to have the pre-funding mandate eliminated, and have the money already paid into it used for those purposes" of covering health care benefits for future retirees. She said, "We've overpaid into our retirement funds, and we'd like some of those overpayments refunded and used for future funding."

She acknowledged the basis for the advance payments were mandated in 2006 because lawmakers wanted assurances the Postal Service could cover benefits for its future pensioners. In addition to relief from the future retiree payment mandate, Yoerger said the proposed business plan of the Postal Service would include a combination of closing post offices, expanding joint ventures with private industry, and changes in how often you get the mail.

"Right now we are required to deliver six days a week," she said, "if it can go to five days a week, as proposed, we could better match the declining volume of mail."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/05/postal.default/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Yes, but it was LEGISLATED IN... so until the US Congress

REMOVES this... why I said talk to congress.

As to delivery days you said THREE... and that is sheer insanity

[DCBob]

129. Three is better than zero... no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Not the point, if they get rid of the prefunding

most of the trouble goes away... and I am being deadly serious on that.

It was an ambush. A successful one.

As is this is part of the LONG TERM PLAN by republicans... but I am sure you knew that.

[DCBob]

132. What if they dont get rid of prefunding?

I would prefer 3 days instead of shutting down.. wouldnt you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Then they do what htey wanted to do

and it is not three day delivery...

Bust the union... and either close it, or privatize it. Best case scenario, bust the union and yes, people can keep jobs for minimum wage.

That is the goal.

They are not even trying to hide this anymore by the way... Chairman Issa has been crystal clear on this by the way.

[DCBob]

134. I suspect a compromise will be reached.

I doubt most Republicans want to kill off the USPS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. You doubt, but the evidence says otherwise

it is about union busting, period... yes, it is that simple.

They want to go from an average 17 dollars \hour pay to whatever is the prevailing wage at FedEx\UPS, which is minimum.

That has been the objective for a while... union busting.

To be trite, it is time to wake up and smell the coffee.

[Exilednight]

143. You're wrong on that point. Many Republicans want to kill the USPS. UPS and Fed Ex spend

huge amounts of cash in attempts to privatize the postal service and run them out of business.

From Cato Institute: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/privatize-the-post-office/

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-so-po.html

[Dulcinea]

150. Why not raise the postal rate for junk mail?

That stuff that ends up in your recycle bin is bulk rate mail. Charge the postal spammers the first class rate! There would be less junk mail, fewer dead trees, & more revenue for the postal service. A win-win.

And, I also have no problem eliminating Saturday delivery, and I'm a regular client of the USPS. I'm an eBay seller & ship through the USPS every week. UPS & FedEx are too expensive.

[madokie]

2. Yup they surely will if they can

[librechik]

35. ++++++++

[BeyondGeography]

3. This makes Republican hearts pound

Finally, a real achievement. They can kill the Post Office.

[ElboRuum]

4. Probably.

Even though the USPS is really a not-for-profit corporation with a legal contract to perform a service on behalf of the federal government, I'm sure it looks like "yet another example of government unable to do anything right" and something that should be privatized, and we all know that the Teapugnicans would rather slaughter the cow for its meat rather than nurse it back to health so it can keep giving milk.

My question is, if they do go under, who plans to deliver letters in its absence? The major parcel delivery companies won't typically handle this, and even if they retooled their operations, how much would they charge to carry it? Certainly not 44 cents for "first-class mail". Probably 3x that. For profit, don't you know. Oh, and I'm sure that legal protections for the privacy of said mail wouldn't apply. Don't be surprised if the delivery guy passes his lunch break reading your most intimate of intimates, or writing down your credit card numbers.

[Cool Logic]

5. "despite a no-layoffs clause in the unions’ contracts. "

With policies like that, it's easy to see why they are going broke.

[WinkyDink]

9. Oh. right.

[Bluebear]

20. Oh yes, it would be cooler & logical to have no union. Right?

[Cool Logic]

67. It would be logical to reduce the workforce if the workload is reduced...

[ElboRuum]

26. So you're saying its those nasty unions...

I see.

Suspicions have been aroused.

[Cool Logic]

65. Actually, I blame that one on management...

A no-layoff clause requires them to maintain the same workforce even if the work load is reduced.

A reduction in the work load = a reduction in revenue, which logically = a reduction in workforce. However, logic was abandoned in this deal and as a result, USPS must maintain the same workforce even if revenue drops. If that is the way the USPS is being run, they need to go out of business.

[ElboRuum]

75. Confusing the USPS with a business.

At least in the traditional sense. Suspicions grow stronger.

[bahrbearian]

30. Oh Boy more minimum wage jobs, now if only we could get rid of the Minimum wage.

[alphafemale]

39. editUCk you.

I'm sorry...did I studder?

editUCK YOU!!!

On Labor Day.

You disparage unions.


editUCK YOU!!!!

[Occulus]

40. This has nothing at all to do with my union

and everything to do with the prefunding mandate.

Which you, of course, know very well.

[Contrary1]

71. "Which you, of course, know very well."

Nah. One would have to do their own research to arrive at the correct reason. Some "news" network viewers can't be bothered. So much easier to be told what to think.

My brother retired from the post office in 2009 after 40+ years. He knew a long time ago that government regulations would be the nails in their coffin.

It's amazing to me that so many Americans believe that the end of unions will be a good thing. They figure that since their jobs are not unionized, there will be no effect on them. Nothing could be further from the truth.

They will never "know" that, since they won't be hearing the truth from Rush.

[Lucian]

56. Yeah, let's bust up their union.

:sarcasm:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Try 2006 and prefunding retirement for EMPLOYEES NOT YET IN THE BOOKS

that was done by Congress.

You can even find this out,

This is union busting, are you in favor of union busting?

[jimbo3]

136. The bill was co-written by a Democrat,

Henry Waxman,and approved 100% by every Deomcratic senator- Kerry, Kennedy, Obama, Clinton etc. And the Postal Reform Act of 2006 was ENDORSED by both the clerks and the carriers union. Now they all scream "union busting!" and point at the Republicans, when the Democrats and the unions share full responsibilty for this piece of legislation.

[brentspeak]

140. Now we know for certain that you are either an idiot or are full of it

I http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4959610&mesg_id=4961339">explained to you last month, as though you were a reasonable person who knew something about how today's Congress works, that the Democrats supported the Postal Reform Act in 2006 only because the original version of the bill included specific GOP-written language which would have broken the postal union contracts immediately and outright five years ago. As the minority party in both House and Senate during the 2004-2006 legislative session, the Democrats were damn fortunate to have actually succeeded in eliminating those provisions from the bill in the first place. The onerous prefunding requirement wasn't something they were able remove from the bill -- and, as has also http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4959610&mesg_id=4960877">been pointed out to you in the past, the Democrats been stubbornly trying to undo it ever since (but have been prevented by the Republicans time-and-again.)


Were you have preferred that the unions had been broken by the Republicans back in 2006? If not, kindly shut up spreading your B.S.

[jimbo3]

145. Thanks for the spin.

I just don't like it when the unions and the Democrats sell me out, thats all. The "onerous pre-funding requirement " was not objected to by a single union official or Democratic legislator.I was there, in 2006, working for the post office and following this bill closely. You weren't.

[brentspeak]

153. Exhibit A of why you're full of it

"I was there, in 2006, working for the post office and following this bill closely."

And yet, just last month here on these forums, you http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4959610&mesg_id=4960935">popped up out of nowhere and pretended as if you knew little or nothing about the bill until you read a few posts here on DU and thereafter performed "two minutes of on-line research" on the topic.

You "followed the bill closely" for five years -- but didn't know much about it until a month ago when your "two minutes of on-line research" magically told you all you needed to know about "the unions and the Democrats"? And how come the words "Republicans" or "GOP" have somehow failed to enter any of your posts as of yet?

[Better Believe It]

144. The Republicans back this legislation and are not proposing to repeal it. Why is that?

Because they see this as an opportunity to cut the wages, benefits and jobs of hundreds of thousands of federal workers.

Do some Democratic politicians support that worker busting agenda.

You better believe it!

[hay rick]

104. Layoff equivalents.

USPS has the ability to cut work hours without resorting to layoffs in many instances and without violating signed contracts.

1. USPS has thousands of TE's (temporary employees). Most were hired to avoid the need to hire additional career employees while the Postal Service introduced new automation. They are hired on annual contracts. They do not get "laid off", they just don't get rehired at the end of the year. This is part of the dreaded "no layoff" protection found in USPS' labor contracts. Most of the TE's in my area had years of experience but were not rehired.

2. In the crafts (meaning the employees covered by labor agreements) USPS' workforce consists primarily of full-time regular employees and part-time flexible employees (PTFs). The PTFs are not guaranteed a set minimum number of hours. Locally, I have already seen PTFs getting less than 10 hours of work per week. If this keeps up over a period of time they won't have to be laid off- they will quit.

3. Full-time regulars can be "excessed" (sent to another office) if there is insufficient work to justify a 40-hour-a-week schedule in their own office.. Employees are supposed to be excessed to another office within 50 miles, but the distance can be much greater if there are no openings available within that radius. I have heard reports of employees being excessed hundreds of miles in remote areas. Again, excessing can be characterized as "layoff protection" but in fact, many of these people simply end up quitting their job.

4. I don't know the details about other craft contracts, but in the city delivery craft, carriers CAN BE LAID OFF anytime before they have put in 6 years of service. Of course, the 6 year limit on layoff vulnerability can be construed as a kind of contractual "no layoff" protection.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Republicans of both parties will offer to outsource services to fed ex and ups.

[Claudia Jones]

53. already happening

Subcontracting Fails Workers, Consumers, and the USPS

Recent reports by the USPS Office of Inspector General (OIG) support the APWU position that mail processing, transportation, and retail services often cost the Postal Service more than if the work were kept in-house.

Current USPS contracting procedures "tip the scales in favor of subcontractors at the expense of postal employees," APWU Motor Vehicle Service Division Director Robert Pritchard said. "And the costs to the Postal Service and the mailing public are exorbitant."

Absolutely, Positively Wasteful

In February, an OIG report found that the USPS Pacific Area wasted approximately $17.8 million by using "expensive FedEx transportation to move mail that could have been moved on low-priced surface transportation or on less costly passenger airlines."

"The Postal Service also paid FedEx to sort mail when they could have avoided those costs by sorting the mail or properly preparing it for transport before giving it FedEx," the OIG added (report NL-AR-08-002). The February report estimated that the Pacific Area USPS could save approximately $45 million over the next 10 years by eliminating such unnecessary expenditures.

The Postal Service first entered into the FedEx air transportation contract in 2001. On Aug. 2, 2006, the USPS announced that it had truncated the original contract and signed a new seven-year agreement that included an "immediate price reduction in all contract categories. ”The revised contract also allowed the Postal Service to continue outsourcing terminal-handling services.

http://www.apwu.org/issues-contracting_out/magart08may.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Happened

by the way FedEx is also quite cynical in the use of the USPS for last mile delivery.

[Uben]

7. Why did they let it get to this point?

That's the question we should be asking. It's not like this happened overnight. The ones charged with the oversight must be so completely incompetent theat they should be fired and fined. The same goes with every government entity. Why do we allow this incompetence? One reason is they should never had been in charge in the first place! Remember "Heckuva job Brownie"?
The cronyism in government is rampant. Instead of hiring competence, they hire their "buddies" to whom they owe for one reason or another.

[WinkyDink]

11. Blather.

[Ilsa]

17. It's caused by a law requiring the PO to overfund their pensions.

Their pensions are already overfunded by $80mil, but they have to keep making payments into it. Congress created this onerous payment plan several years ago and required them to get it funded in ten years.

We need to ask Congress to rescind that requirement. Otherwise, the GOP will get what they want: privatization of another service that has worked very well. The PO goes where none of the other private delivery services will go.

[court jester]

29. Disturbing and baffling why this isn't discussed more

and ended tout suite. Like tomorrow.

Poof.

Problem solved.

It's almost like they're allowing the collapse.

END THE DAMNED WARS and that would allow "us" to subsidize the USPS. Prices need to come down, lots of stuff in everyones house that could be resold via ebay and such. In fact, the USPS should set up another EBAY.

(in the time it took the reader to read this post the US Government borrowed ~$15,000: $2,000 per second- to drone bomb people 8000 miles away. It's madness.)

[customerserviceguy]

33. I get very suspicious

when I hear that a pension plan is getting 'overfunded'. That was the same reason used to rob the pension funds that are now very clearly underfunded.

There's a simple cure: Double the cost of sending junk mail. Maybe it would make a few businesspeople think twice before sending me yet one more catalog on top of the two dozen they've sent since I bought something from them five years ago on a deep-discount sale. If junk mailers still want to send me litter, they can at least pay the costs of running it's delivery system.

As far as the USPS shutting down operations, it's simply bullshit. Everyone would finally find a useful way around them if a shutdown lasted for any more than a week. Businesses would notice that people are still buying their crap without them having to send out junk mail, older folks would finally sit down with their kids and grandkids and learn how to get and pay bills online, and people would just abandon dead-tree editions of newspapers and magazines.

The USPS knows that instead of slowly sliding down a hill towards their eventual demise, they'd simply be jumping off of a cliff to that same place.

[Occulus]

43. In this case it's true

The USPS is the only public or private business enterprise in the USA required by law to prefund its retiree health benefits package. This requirement was designed, IMO, to provide justification for privatization via the creation of a false financial crisis.

Now, the USPS would still be in the red without these requirements, but it would be by an amount that we could actually deal with. That said, if Congress doesn't release those overpaid funds, we could very well be looking at a privatized USPS, and all that entails (among other things, and end to universal service, which would be a complete disaster for everyone in the country).

I won't work for a privatized USPS. I'll quit my job first, even if in debt and with no other job prospects.

[customerserviceguy]

78. OK, well then let them cut the funding

And see if there's money in the account when you need it. You should be glad that you have one of the only government retiree health plans that actually has somewhere near what it's going to need when the baby boomers start retiring in sizable numbers.

Too many phony pulled-out-of-someone's-ass calculations have been used to gut pension and retiree health systems for me to trust anyone when they say that a plan is overfunded.

[Occulus]

85. Hmm. Yeah, I thought so.

Next time, don't waste my time until you actually understand the issue, ok?

[customerserviceguy]

100. Hey, it's no skin off my nose

if your retiree system pulls the same tricks as the other government pension systems. It will be your problem.

[metalbot]

149. There is a fundamental difference between the postal service and a corporation

The math is fairly easy here. You require the postal service to fully fund their retirements because we think the postal service is going to see less and less revenue as more of our "junk mail" moves to Email. This is different from the idea of a corporation underfunding pension programs on the basis that their revenues will increase. The alternative is to wait until they can no longer fund their retirements, and then institute a bailout to fund the pensions that they can no longer pay. Ideally, you'd do this with public companies as well - if you are in a business that is going to do crappy in the future, you shouldn't be able to underfund your pensions, because if you do so, the difference is going to come from the tax payer. Unfortunately, you can't do that with public companies without some formal process for prognosticating their future earnings. In the case of the post office, you can forecast this fairly well. This isn't a union busting measure, this is the government looking at reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Alas raising postal rates that involve MAIL require

congressional authorization, but you knew that right?

[customerserviceguy]

103. Yes, and even the tea partiers

would be hard pressed to defend junk mail. The "small businesses" that they purport to defend are stupid if they rely to any significant degree on junk mail to generate profits and create jobs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. What part of they cannot raise any mail rates

without congress green lighting this are you missing?

[customerserviceguy]

155. What I'm saying is

Congress will raise the rates on mail, it's inevitable. And junk mail is the perfect place to start. Why is that missing the point of what you say? I acknowledge that they are in control, but they will not let the USPS fade into oblivion, and increasing mail rates is the way to accomplish that.

[jimbo3]

138. plus one!

[Cosmocat]

42. They did not "let" it get to this point ...

Technology and the world changed to make it very difficult to maintain the delivery of postage to every doorstep in the country. We have not been able to design robots to deliver mail yet, so the same routes remain with the same basic sized workforce.

Most every other industry has been able to downsize its workforce to accommodate general wage stagnation.

It is hard to believe people don't have the common sense to figure it out.

Gas prices exploding at the same time that the internet and technology have stolen a good portion of their business.

Less mail (less postage bought) to run the same routes with higher costs.

But, sure, fall in line with republicans in blaming government for larger economic issues ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. 2006 prefunding requirement for retirees not yet in the books

passed by the US Congress and signed by George W Bush...

but don't let facts get in the way.

[jimbo3]

137. and co-written by a Democrat,

and endorsed by both the postal unions.....

[brentspeak]

141. It would appear your purpose on these forums is to attack the Democrats

For the benefit of those interested in the history of "jimbo3" and this particular issue, please read the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1878722&mesg_id=1882613">following post (and the post's embedded links).

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Brentspeak alraedy tried to educate you

so I shan't...

Have a good day... perhaps in your future should be a Poli Sci 101 class at your local Junior College though.

[banned from Kos]

8. The GOP will not approve a $5.5 billion rescue of a union organization

Look for privatization, higher postage costs, and maybe 3 day a week delivery.

[fasttense]

10. Pure spin and lies.

The USPS is the ONLY service mentioned in the constitution. To shut it down and cut off funding is to ignore the constitution. But then we are no longer a democracy and Dancing Supremes ignore the constitution as a matter of course.

Let's all continue to pretend that corporations, a small handful of oligarchs, are NOT running our government into the ground for mere profit.

[FarCenter]

22. Congress has the power "To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;"

But there is no requirement to do so. Congress can do so in a manner and to an extent that it sees fit.

[elocs]

12. A good explanation of the USPS problems:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/03/02/losing-money-isnt-the-u-s-postal-services-only-problem/

Problem Number One: Congress Is in the Driver's Seat

Therein lies the USPS's ultimate problem: every policy decision must be approved by Congress, leaving the agency as agile as an elephant. Critics regularly attack the Post Office for its supposed inefficiency and inability to function as well as private companies like the United Parcel Service (UPS) and FedEx (FDX). One big problem is that these competitors are able to set their own policies, while the USPS's rates, hours and even its pension plan funding are determined by Congress. This last item isn't incidental: In 2007, while the Post Office was attempting to deal with plummeting revenues, Congress dropped an anvil on its head with a law requiring the USPS to pay between $5.4 billion and $5.6 billion per year into its retiree health benefits trust fund. By comparison, most of the country's other businesses are legally allowed to underfund their retiree benefit programs. Although this number was later cut, it still represents a major expenditure for the beleaguered agency.

Not helping matters is the fact that people are barely using the post office anymore. E-mail has rendered traditional letter writing almost obsolete, while online bill pay, direct deposit and other services are also cutting into demand. According to Potter, mail volume fell from 213 billion pieces in 2006 to 177 billion pieces in 2009, a 17% decline in just three years. By 2020, he estimates, USPS deliveries will fall to 150 billion pieces.

And much of the existing mail volume is actually unprofitable. Media mail, periodicals, nonprofit mail, and library mail are all money sinks; in fact, 90% of the agency's revenue comes from business mail, a large portion of which is junk mail. While dropping "advertising mail" would make almost everyone happy, the post office can't afford to lose the revenue. According to Potter, the mail that we tend to toss out immediately actually pours over $15 billion per year into the Post Office's coffers. While part of the USPS's shortfall could be made up by raising prices on more popular services, the agency would have to go hat in hand to Congress in order to get approval to do so.

More information at the link.

[ElboRuum]

27. Inaccurate...

The agency is as agile as an elephant tied to a donkey.

[Odin2005]

13. Hysterical MSM corporatist tripe.

[hobbit709]

14. Maybe Mr. Donahoe can cut costs starting with HIS salary and perks.

He got $850,000 last year including his $135,000 "performance" bonus and his $75,000+ raise for doing such a good job.

[jimbo3]

139. good idea...

..my office has 12 carriers and 3 clerks....and 2 supervisors!For 15 people!

[global1]

15. What Will Stamp Collectors Do?......nt

[chillspike]

24. I collect foreign stamps

:)

[Fearless]

16. Sounds like the Republican "strangle the government to death" meme in action.

[Randypiper]

18. They shouldn't cut Saterdays

It should be Tuesdays or Wednesdays.

[DCBob]

25. I thnk they can cut back to 3 days a week delivery.. MWF.

that would save a ton of money and have little negative impact... except good folks losing jobs of course.

[Ilsa]

19. Ed Schultz covered this one night on The Ed Show.

Congress mandated that the USPS get their pensions funded in just a ten year period. The pension is actually heavily overfunded right now, but Congress hasn't provided any relief. The GOP. Would love to privatize the PO so all of those union jobs would disappear. I also think that Congress would figure out a way for the purchaser to steal their pension fund. It's ugly business out there. I'm going to write my leadership, not that wepriting Ron Paul, Kay Hutchison, and crony Cornyn will help. will help.

[mother earth]

21. Privatize, that's the corporate answer...more pillaging &

plundering for the USA corporate powers of America...everything should be privatized to save it.

[newportdadde]

23. They should be allowed to raise prices like every other business had done the past couple of years.

Unfortunately they are barred from doing that without approval from Congress. Everyone else you buy from has jacked their prices through the roof or cut back on product in a package. Hell Frito Lays reduced their product size by 20% I believe it was in 2009.

[FarCenter]

28. Since delivery costs are approximately per address, they should charge that way

A major part of the USPS cost would appear to be associated with having a carrier service each address 6 days per week.

So the USPS should charge $x per month per address, just as internet companies charge $x per month pretty much independent of the volume of data received.

[customerserviceguy]

34. Only if you let me opt out

Why should I pay a fee just to get junk mail? Yes, I get some magazines and the occasional package from eBay through the USPS, but I'd be more than happy to eliminate dead-tree periodicals, and would insist that online purchases come through UPS or FedEx only.

Just keep doubling the cost of sending junk mail, and eventually you'll solve the problem.

[FarCenter]

36. An opt out would be OK with me

In some areas, paper mail is terribly insecure anyway. You wouldn't want anything important to come that way.

[customerserviceguy]

38. Believe me, I hear about it every workday

Especially in the summer, when substitute letter carriers (who don't 'know' the people on the route) misdeliver bills. Then I get a customer calling up wondering where their utility bill is, or asking why they got a late notice when they never got the bill.

I try to sign them up for ebilling, but more often than not, they refuse. At some point, billing entities are going to start charging customers who want snail mail bills, that's probably the only thing that will force the Luddites into getting with the 21st Century.

[Occulus]

51. You may be blaming the wrong person

That may not be the carrier's fault. We use a system called delivery point sequence (aka DPS) that runs on the barcode sorters we use to sort mail. The sortplan is individual to each ZIP code, and uses two passes to sort mail into the carrier's walk sequence, automatically.

Tell the people who are complaining to talk to their postmaster or postal office supervisor about this; if it's happening frequently, the sortplan probably needs to be fixed to reflect current correct local addresses. I would also let your own supervisor know, and ask them to call the postmaster for that area to let them know of the problem.

These are things we will fix if we know about them, but the people on the delivery end have to let us know there's a problem or we can't do anything.

[customerserviceguy]

73. Ok then, explain this

Bills get delivered on time, with the same verified address, for many months. Then, all of a sudden, one doesn't arrive, and it's usually in the summer, when substitute carriers are used. What is telling the postmaster (presuming you can even contact such a person) going to do about that?

I tell people to complain to their post office, but that's just something I say to terminate the call. I know that they're either not going to do it, or that they will get nowhere with it.

[Occulus]

76. I'd have to know if the bill arrived *eventually* to answer that

That's why people need to tell us about these little things. We can do something about it, but we need to know first.

[customerserviceguy]

97. All I know

is that we get buckets and buckets of returned mail to be processed. Yeah, most of that is from people who have moved without a forwarding address, but a goodly percentage of it (15-25 in my rough estimation) is stuff that just didn't make it to the address, and it's clear that many other things did. Of course, I have no possible way of knowing how much gets misdelivered and merely tossed away by the recipient with the attitude of "well, it's not my bill."

[csziggy]

146. I have had no problems getting to a postmaster or inspector

When there have been difficulties in my mail arriving. They have always been helpful, efficient, and solved the problem within days.

But if it is bills FROM your company that are not arriving in a customer's mail box, here's a little detail - only the SENDER can initiate a trace to try to find out why the piece of mail has not arrived. Your customers cannot initiate that trace. Their post office will try to help them but there is only so much they can do from the recipient's end.

[Occulus]

49. As long as you have a secure receptacle you're fine.

As for the really important stuff, that's why we have Registered Mail. That is secure- it's carried in a sealed, numbered locking bag that has a counter that advances each time it's used. It's then sorted internally in a locked metal cage, and I believe you have to sign for delivery.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. From a purely Machiavellian and cold-blooded point of view, here's

what I propose. Dems should get united behind preserving the Post Office, so that the burden for letting it fail falls squarely on the Repuke Congress. Once it has 'shut down,' Dems can use that shut-down to drive the Repukes into political oblivion for a generation or more, even with a milquetoast Obama at the head of the Dems.

This issue offers yet another possibility to wound mortally the Repukes for at least a generation to come.

After the damage has been done and firm Dem majorities sit in each house of Congress, the USPS can be brought back.

However, an important question is how to protect salary and benis for current USPS employees. On that, I have nothing to offer. But I still think this is a potential party-killer issue and I want to see it used to kill the Repuke party and drive a stake through it vampirous heart.

[Claudia Jones]

64. exactly

This example you give refutes all of the "we can't do anything because the Republicans will stop us" rationalizations for bi-partisan compromise.

As you illustrate, standing strongly against the right wingers could result in short term loss, but would definitely lead to massive long term gain. The alternative, pushed here by some, of compromising with the opposition for the sake of so-called "practicality" and "being realistic" is a program for enabling and strengthening the right wing.

"Yet another possibility to wound mortally the Repukes for at least a generation to come." Yes, indeed.

[coalition_unwilling]

111. Letting the postal service die is a party-killing move. I say Dems should

line up solidly behind the USPS and then dare the Repukes to shut it down. Tie a resulting shutdown around their (Repukes') necks like the political noose it is.

[treestar]

32. This is one thing even the Republicans cannot

shut down. The Constitution specifically provides for it.

[former9thward]

109. No it doesn't actually.

It authorized Congress to "establish post offices". It did not mandate it. Nevertheless Congress did establish post offices but nothing in the Constitution says they need to be maintained forever or the means of distributing the mail has to remain the same.

[kentuck]

37. Christmas will be a disaster...

Without the US Postal Service. Those that think UPS can deliver their packages will be very disappointed, I think. Many packages will be lost and never found.

[customerserviceguy]

41. I've never had a package lost by UPS or FedEx

I don't recall any lost by the USPS, either, but I can imagine that if I had to go through an insurance claim with them, it would be no less of a bureaucratic nightmare than anything UPS or FedEx would put either me or a shipper through.

[Shagbark Hickory]

62. That's because Fedex and UPS are writing the rules and creating the storyboard for those

bureaucratic nightmares.

[customerserviceguy]

72. Unless you've been through the procedure

of getting an insured undelivered shipment reimbursed, then neither of us has any experience at it. I'd be interested to hear from those who have pursued misdelivery claims with FedEx, UPS, and/or the USPS.

It's always seemed weird to me that the USPS has so many classes of 'protected' mail: registered, insured, certified, delivery confirmation, etc. FedEx and UPS have just one class - we'll get it there, and we'll let you know exactly where it is on the way. While I don't know what horrors await the shipper or intented receiver of a non-delivered package, it would seem that the various USPS classes contain plenty of weasel words that the postal system would use to figure out how to avoid paying for something.

[Occulus]

74. It's because of the way we process the mail internally

different types of mail go to people trained to handle them within the plant. We definitely do not want to use a single system such as you describe, because we handle (among other things) end-of-week receipts for retail operations, legal notices, and even biological specimens (for which we have a strict procedure). All of those are handled differently in-house.

Registered mail, for example, gets sorted in a wire cage for security reasons.

[Shagbark Hickory]

77. I have experience filing claims with UPS and DHL, and fedex ground

UPS is a nightmare.
DHL (RIP) was a breeze.
Fedex ground was a nightmare

USPS one time , I shipped a very large heavy package to a remote town in eastern OR. It was supposed to get there in 2-3 days. I ended up having to make some phone calls to local postal facilities. They did not have access to the same kind of tracking that the other companies have but they assured me it would get there eventually and it did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. You do realize that FedEx USES the Postal Service right?

Yup, I have had packets sent through FEDEX, out of no choice, delivered by my mailman... and I am not in a rural route either... which is what last mile was supposed to be for.

I thank my mailman, and scream at FedEx and the COMPANY that used them... and paid through the nose for that "service."

[customerserviceguy]

98. I've seen this, too.

Lest anyone get me wrong, I don't want to see the USPS go away, but it's silly to think that the one we will have 20-25 years from now will be much like the one we have today. I see people getting all of their 'information only' mail through purely electronic means, I foresee zero use of the mails for financial transactions, and I see companies making an extra charge for those who still want standard snail mail.

That means that the USPS simply delivers junk mail, and if that's what it's used for, then the junk mailers should be paying 100% of the system's costs. Why not start down that road right now, while the USPS is still relevant in a number of people's lives?

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Alas they deliver pacakges

when I ship to Iraq or Afghanistan a care packet, I use the USPS... the others don't deliver in warzones... to be honest it is the military post system, but still the USPS gets it to them.

I also check USPS whenever I order any packet online.

That is where much of the future is, and for that, they don't need congress and they are pretty good at that, and more than just competitive.

[customerserviceguy]

105. As USPS locations shut down

and more UPS and FedEx locations pop up, that will change. It's a major hassle to stand in line at most USPS offices to either mail something, or go in during their limited business hours to pick something up, if it has to be signed for. Yes, that's mostly true for urban or suburban locations, but serving every little wide spot in the road with a post office is getting quite expensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. You do realize your postman will pick up that package right>

And you think UPS or FedEx will deliver to end of the road in rural land? They don't, what on god's green earth will make then do it? In fact FedEx USES the post service for that.

[customerserviceguy]

107. Sure, if I want to leave it out by the doorstep

and risk having it made off with. Not a solution for me.

I know that the other carriers will not go too far out in the sticks, but I do see the day when every small town will have a UPS/FedEx "store" or some such place where people can pick up packages while they're in town to do grocery shopping anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. I don't

and it is up to you about that package... serious...

[customerserviceguy]

154. The world is changing

and the Internet will bring about changes at least as profound as the automobile did. I fully expect the mail system to be greatly altered by the changes that are to come. Package delivery will still be important (until that transporter beam becomes reality!) but basic information will become way too expensive to transmit by a physical carrier.

[csziggy]

147. Only FedEx Ground uses the postal service to deliver packages

FedEx Express - the original FedEx service - does not. FedEx Ground was a company (maybe RPS?) that FedEx acquired to get local ground shipping to add to their services. They have kept it a separate division and it is a nightmare for the FedEx Express people because of the black eye it gives FedEx overall.

So if you want FedEx delivery to your door, you have to pay for the FedEx Express service. More money, but worth it for valuable or essential items.

I also hate the FedEx Postal Saver option since MOST companies do not make it clear that is what you are getting for that cut rate shipping price. For me, it makes a difference on what address I give. I am at a rural location and the mail box is not visible from anywhere on the farm. It is not secure and because it has been bashed so many times, it is not weather tight.

Some of the carriers for the route will not make the trip up the driveway to deliver packages. So I do NOT want packages delivered by the postal service. One left a package leaning up against the post - a neighbor spotted it and brought it up the drive to the house. Another carrier left a package out in the weather next to a storage building we don't often use. Only because I was looking for it did I find it before it was soaked in the rain or carried off by a stray dog.

Now, with certain companies, I only give them my Post Office Box address. That way, they have to deliver it to a secure location in the local Post Office, not at some random place out here.

Mostly you need to scream at the companies for not making their shipping methods clear to you. And that Postal Saver Rate should be the bottom of the line cheapest rate going, not expensive at all.

Disclaimer - hubby works for FedEx Office - yet another division that used to be Kinko's. He was working there when Kinko's was acquired by FedEx so he has learned a lot about the company.

[xiamiam]

118. i ship a lot of stuff as i sell on ebay..i package well..few items get broken

have yet to see anything get lost..of the few that have been broken, i provide the receipt for insurance and the buyer proceeds by taking the item, original box and packing materials. I have yet to hear of any unresolved problems from buyers.

I love the post office. It is a great service and works. I think this whole thing is bogus. Why dont they just stop the wars and give them extra money. In the last few years alone, the post office has increased their rates several times for box shipping. It's still better than any other service so far as price..at least for me.

[mailman82]

44. The Post office will not shut down!

This is the plan to bust the union! I was a letter carrier for 30 years. For the last ten years we had our routes adjusted, which means added on to. What you could do in 8 hrs. is now 10 hrs for 8 hrs pay. I loved this job! The people I got to know on my route,Rt. 54 by the way, were the greatest. You see I was a dinosaur. I gave extra service. My idea of going postal was to take the garbage to the curb for my elderly people. Take them to the Dr's. if they needed a ride, pick up prescriptions for the ones with out a car. Now there is no time for that. That is why we retired last year, by we I mean 5 carriers, w/ 160 years of service combined.
We delivered pkg. for UPS and Fed ex. because they go to that area. We are the only ones that deliver to every house every day. I still belong to the Union!

[senseandsensibility]

52. Thanks for the facts.

I hope you are right about thw US Postal Service.

[Shagbark Hickory]

63. Please do not deliver packages for UPS or FEDEX anymore.

You clearly have led a very honorable career and are a very nice person but as someone who really cares, please let UPS and FEDEX deliver their own packages. If it means they have to drive out of their way and spend loads on gas and wages, so be it. USPS needs to be in business for USPS and not to do the private companies a favor. They aren't doing the USPS any favors, I assure you.

[cyglet]

124. Out of all the jobs I've had...

...this is the best, even with the route adjustments every 6 months. They are trying to union bust (in particular NALC, though I have no doubt the others are next) and get the older people out. I thought Potter was bad, but Obama must've wanted to find the most corporate crony guy they could to work as postmaster general. Honestly, I don't blame AFLCIO from being disillusioned with the Democrats if this is what we get from it. At this point, so am I!

I would like to retire here, but I'm only 35. I came here thinking this was the safest place in the world to work, after having been laid off and fired for a ridiculous reason (they just didn't like me, and essentially made up a reason). In comparison, even now, it's paradise. I don't want it to turn into where I came from....

[Rex]

46. Wow, all this caused by 8 years of non-governance

and to THINK it is the SAME party that is calling for heads to roll! How do these PEOPLE FIND WORK?

[cyglet]

47. Words from an insider.

I don't know why anyone takes this guy seriously anymore, he's cried wolf so many times. (And I work there!)

The only way he has to push legislation he wants is to threaten for all these things to happen. He can't lobby with money or focus groups, so he has to threaten doldrums.

You can argue that we lose money to the Internet, but we get much more from package delivery these days (so basically back from the Internet).

Honestly I think everything would be solved if Congress would allow USPS to set its own prices. It's weird that they spun it off to its own devices in the 70s, but they still regulate everything that we do. Erase that weird relationship and it's all done. But the businesspeople in this country would rather have another decent place to work eliminated, so they could put more downward pressure on everyone else.

[mac56]

48. SELL ADVERTISING ON POSTAGE STAMPS.

Guaranteed to put USPS back in the black.

[Occulus]

60. I'll raise that as an option in the meeting we're having in a week or so.

It will be interesting to see the reaction from our district manager. I'm not certain how ads on stamps would work- there's a very limited amount of available space unless we increase the size of such stamps- but it's an interesting idea, and certainly more creative than anything we're being offered at the moment.

I'll be sure to mention this; thanks for bringing it up!

[mac56]

108. Just from the collectors' market alone

it could be a huge windfall.

I've been advocating this for years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Congress would have to authorize that,

what are the odds?

[mac56]

110. IIRC there's already a statute in place that allows it.

It's just never been done.

[sarcasmo]

50. More Repbulcian attempts to kill the Unions.

[tuckessee]

54. How will I get my junk mail if they shut down? n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

58. Because a private company will come in and start a new postal service.

Delivering the mail, especially junk mail is very lucrative when compared to private parcel services that spend more time and devote more resources to delivering less volume for less money.

[originalpckelly]

61. Help me: Why is it that there is a law keeping spam off of my computer...

but not out of my mailbox?

The computerized spam is actually more energy efficient than the USPS version. Yet, there is a law saying I can un-subscribe from those spam e-mails, or the person sending it to me can actually be prosecuted.

Why shouldn't we have the right to do the same thing for a far more energy intensive application?

[Shagbark Hickory]

68. I agree with you on that one. I think you and I both know the answer.

Of course there is an opt out list for credit card offers.
I can tell you from first hand experience that your opt-out request is merely a suggestion that is ignored.

[Lucian]

55. I don't see the government helping them out because there's no money in mail delivery.

:sarcasm:

The only option is to help out the USPS. Who else is going to deliver the mail?

[Shagbark Hickory]

59. A private company will gladly take over.

Delivering the mail, especially junk mail is very lucrative when compared to private parcel services that spend more time and devote more resources to delivering less volume for less money.

USPS isn't hurting because there isn't enough mail being sent. I know that's what the republicans would like us all to think.

[Occulus]

66. No private, for-profit company *can* do what the USPS does because

the USPS was not conceived of as a for-profit enterprise.

Let's be blunt about what we're really talking about, here: the entire situation has been very carefully crafted to support the argument that the USPS is a money-losing government enterprise which can be better and more cheaply done by private owners operating for profit.

Sound familiar? Yeah. It should. After all, we've heard this before about other government services, haven't we? The wind from the right blows fast and fierce on this topic, all emanating from one Grover Fuckwit Doodah Norquist (and the Chicago School of Be a Dick About It Economics, those motherfuckers).

And so it goes, and I bet nobody will effectively stop it this time either. It makes me want to throw things.

[Shagbark Hickory]

69. I'm not making the case for privatization...

I'm just saying that if the USPS were to shutter up tomorrow, there'd be lots of companies eager to take over. There's money to be made there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. No there is not, especially in rural routes

why FedEx contracts the USPS to deliver last mile.

[Shagbark Hickory]

89. There's money to be made there if you're going there anyway.

Not if like fedex, you have one package to deliver to a remote address.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. You said there is money

there is not... period. This is not a business, it is a service.

There is more... the idea of a postal service IS IN THE DANG CONSTITUTION.

[Shagbark Hickory]

92. Great but it doesn't have to be losing money either.

Call it a busines. Call it a service. I don't care what you call it. But when it's getting too expensive, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. And it's got nothing to do with delivering mail to rural addresses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. How about we deal with the prefunding of retirement

for people NOT YET in the rolls first? You know the LAW passed by a REPUBLICAN CONGRESS and SIGNED BY A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT... that be a good part to start.

Several people have pointed this out... it was an ambush and it is working.

This is union busting, PERIOD.

As to losing money, if they did not have to do that... they'd be fine.

Of course Congress (yes it is Congress) could authorize raising your stamp price by at least another fifty cents... I mean gas has gone up since the last raise by over 100%... but you think THIS CONGRESS will do that?

I know keeping up with the reality is hard to do. Especially if you rely on the US Media.

[Shagbark Hickory]

95. You're mistaking me for someone who doesn't believe union busting and retirement has anything to

do with this.

That commonly happens when someone picks a reply at the bottom of the stack without knowing how or why it was posted to begin with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Whatever dude

:eyes:

[Shagbark Hickory]

99. Yeah. 'teva.

[xiamiam]

120. I think that IS the underlying motivation. Privatize and triple the prices..nt

[Lucian]

70. It's sad, isn't it?

And if it's privatized, you don't pay your bill, you don't get your mail.

I too want to throw things.

[Shagbark Hickory]

93. What makes you think would be bills? Bills are a bad bad idea.

They'd want the maximum number of recipients for the bulk mail. Amd sell postage. People have to buy postage whether or not they actually mail the letter.

[Occulus]

125. A private postal company would impose a service bill to RECEIVE mail.

They would treat delivery like a utility, and charge you per piece in much the same way SMS is added to your cell bill. "Customers who receive more mail than this may consider our $19.99/mo unlimited delivery option." This would be in addition to the cost of your stamp.

Don't think a private postal service wouldn't fuck you coming and going. If you want your electricity to stay on, if you want to get that notice for traffic court, you'll have to use them, and they'll make sure you know it.

[Shagbark Hickory]

148. They'd be stupid to do it that way. The AOL model works better.

People aren't desperate to receive mail these days.
Frankly I don't even want mail. I hate getting the mail. It's always bad news.
Just email it or leave me the hell alone. If you have to bill me, put my credit card on file and leave me the hell alone.

But my mailbox, or the bad-news-box as I call it, receives about $2-$3 in shit I don't want and didn't ask for each and every day. I wouldn't pay one red cent to receive it, yet USPS is getting paid to deliver it.

What people are desperate to do is send letters and parcels on the occasions that they need to do either. So the private company could charge quite a bit more than USPS rates for letters and parcels because they have you over the barrel at that point.

The most lucrative of all is selling stamps. Because people have to buy a book of stamps before they can mail a letter, unless they want to go wait in line at the post office. So you have to pay $7- or whatever- before you can mail one letter. You may never mail another letter. You may lose the stamps. You may throw them in the trash by mistake. The rate may go up and it's easier just to buy a new book of stamps than hunt down those make up stamps. So this is revenue that could be invested long before services are rendered, if ever.

At home, I have $20-$30 in postage stamps in a drawer.
I send out like 8 first class letters a year.

[Shagbark Hickory]

57. STOP LETTING YOUR COMPETITION RUN YOUR BUSINESS!

[Claudia Jones]

81. USPS is not "a business"

It is right wing propaganda to describe government agencies as though they were businesses, and the right wingers do that in order to promote privatization.

Several people on this thread are talking about the USPS as though it were a business.

Government agencies are not supposed to turn a profit. They cannot "run out of money."

[Shagbark Hickory]

90. I guess you're not breaking the rules since you aren't calling me a rightwinger directly.

That level of craftiness can earn you a spot on the executive board for fedex so you can figure out how to manipulate postal regulations to benefit your company.

[Claudia Jones]

114. begging your pardon?

We can not call right wing propaganda for what it is - right wing propaganda? Among Democrats? On a Democratic party discussion board?

Talking about public agencies as though they were private enterprises is in fact a product of right wing propaganda. I would be happy to describe that and trace its history at length.

[Shagbark Hickory]

116. You can beg all you want.

But you're not going to get it.

[Claudia Jones]

122. noted

Thanks for the heads up.

[xiamiam]

121. well..if I had to pay ups or fed ex costs to ship packages, i would not be able to afford it.

In some cases, not all..ups will charge 4 times as much to ship a package as the post office. Even when a customer pays shipping, they will think twice about the purchase.

[matmar]

152. USPS is not a taxpayer funded government organization..

It's a quasi-government agency - a result of the 1970 Postal Reorganization Act. The US Post Office (as it was called under the old rules) became the US Postal Service and was cut loose from taxpayer subsidy to fund operations. It makes its money completely through the sale of postage.

When it made a profit in the past, that profit money went back into to the coffers of the Federal government. The USPS was looked upon as a cash cow by the Federal government until the Republicans slipped a poison pill provision into the 2006 PAEA that required a $5.5 billion dollar per year pre-funding of future retiree health benefits that is bleeding the USPS dry.

[Claudia Jones]

156. regardless of funding

No matter where the funding for a public agency comes from, it still exists for the purpose of serving the public. Businesses do not. They serve private interests.

[MoonRiver]

102. Even third world countries have postal services!

What kind of dark road is it we are traveling down??? :scared:

[mmonk]

112. The truth:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/mmonk/113

[cyglet]

123. +1000.

Ding ding ding.

[Exilednight]

128. companies like UPS and Fed Ex are going to lobby hard to keep

members of Congress from voting for the monies.

[LaValle]

130. Yup

UPS and mail will be a 5 buck stamp.

I can ship a box to europe for 40 bucks, via the post office. and via UPS FedEX DHL they all want well over 200 bucks. same box.

[sfpcjock]

151. Thanks.

Bill Press is talking about it--see my post on him.

The Postmaster General is addressing Congress today. As you mentioned, he said USPS could have to close down by next Winter unless they get help. They have to make another stupid $5 billion prepay on worker pensions that could cause them to default.

Bill said UPS and Fedex would be nothing without the Post Office.