Irish women hit back.

[Cerridwen]

I had a book review to do for a class in Women's History in the US. The book I chose was about Irish immigrant women who had come to the US. One of the chapters was about the social workers in New York and how they viewed "those" women.

Social workers of that time were middle-class white women of the "Protestant persuasion". Please remember, at that time in history, mid-19th century-ish, the Irish were not considered "white."

The report from the social worker stated that she had visited the home of the Irish immigrants and the man had been beating his wife. The social worker was appalled, absolutely appalled...because the Irish woman hit back.

I'm reminded of this chapter, and the cultural issues and the class issues, every time I see someone point out to me the "proper" way of doing things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. In some way it is the puritan ethic

and in this sense I don't mean it in a nice way.

[Cerridwen]

3. Don't forget Calvin.

That's another huge influence of our "American" value system.

Ah yes, the "American" work ethic so widely praised and worshiped while forgetting it was once known as the "Protestant" work ethic.

Yep. Words have meaning and obscuring meaning changes words.

[HEyHEY]

2. As the son of an Irish Canadian woman I can tell you they often hit first!

[Cerridwen]

6. Ugly, isn't it? When a response to anything is violence?

I'm astounded the human race hasn't "violence"ed itself into extinction.

Apparently some of us a wired tough enough to avoid violence while others are so weak as to succumb.

[Kalyke]

10. Apparently, you've never been hit.

Some of us are wired to know it's wrong, but will defend themselves on a dime.

Geez. :eyes:

[Cerridwen]

13. I was talking about hitting first as a response to a non-hitting event.

heyhey was talking about hitting first.

Not self-defense in response to being hit.

[HEyHEY]

16. Meh, it was the 80s, the last days of smacking your kids around

It's just what they did. Doesn't bug me, my mom's awesome.

[Cerridwen]

27. Did it go on until the 80s? I didn't realize.

I thought that mind-set had disappeared by then. My own mom, Irish though she was, didn't hit; she slapped me once when I was 14. That was the only time. Brow-beating, however, that was a whole 'nother issue.

[Motown_Johnny]

4. I thought this was going to be a warning for would be domestic abusers

Hit back, hell they will hit first

[Cerridwen]

8. Nawww, that's my other 92.7% of posts.

:D

See my reply to heyhey about violence in general.

[Fleshdancer]

5. sounds like an interesting read

Do you remember the name of the book?

[Cerridwen]

9. It was. I knew someone would ask. I don't remember right this second.

But, I'll make a point of adding this to my journal so I can respond to you as soon as I remember the title of that book.

It was a great, though aggravating, read.

[Fleshdancer]

17. ok good, I'll bookmark this thread! n/t

[Cerridwen]

21. I don't usually kick up a thread after it's "died" so watch for a

private message in your inbox. Give me a day or so as so much of my stuff is packed away and my memory, some days, sucks.

[Kalyke]

7. I LOVE this!

My ex hit me. I HIT BACK. I knocked him upside the head and down again. And, before a word is uttered, he hit me first and I am a foot and 100 pounds less than him. Self-defense.

And I'm one "them" nice Irish Catholic girls.

:rofl:

[Cerridwen]

14. You see, by the standards of the day of which I was reporting...

"ladies" didn't hit back. They...I dunno what, but they didn't hit back. It was quite sad to read that a "lady" viewed another as lesser because she defended herself and hit back.

It wasn't "proper" after all.

[Kalyke]

35. For the record...

I got your IM and am proud to say out in the open that I do not find your post offensive to me. In fact, I totally got it. "Ladies" didn't hit back - they accepted it and, as a result, I HATE being called a "lady." Ladies are wimps at most or cute little cartoon Cocker Spaniels at best (I LOVE Cockers. My family bred and raised them and I rescued one a few years ago - and, he's not doing too well right now. He has some serious abuse injuries. I'm actually pretty worried right now. :( )

I know that my ex's violence begat my violence and I only point out that my aggression wasn't unmerited.

That said: :hug: You didn't offend me. But I DID fight back. :hi:

[Cerridwen]

36. I have a Cocker-mix.

I'm so happy you were not offended by my post or IM. It's so hard, sometimes, to communicate via the typed word; so much can be lost or misunderstood.

I never meant to imply that fighting back was bad; and I'm so glad you "got" that.

Now, about that Cocker...my "little girl" reacted as though she had been abused when I "got" her. No, wait, she found me, not the other way around.

I spent a lot of time learning that I couldn't correct her but that I could reinforce her "good" behavior. She had fear aggression. She would respond to her fear by "attacking" the cause of her fear. I couldn't yell or "punish" but had to focus on rewarding good behavior. She was a stray so I had to play it by ear/feel. I spent a lot of time looking at it from her point of view.

She got better. So did I.

There was, as usual, a book involved but I loaned it to a friend and don't remember the title of the book. It worked for me and was part of the "Dummies" series. I recommend learning about fear aggression in dogs and how to handle it and I hope and pray it works with your little guy. Positive re-enforcement of good behavior and teaching him to be confident in himself is what I took away from that book.

This for you :hug: and for your "little" guy :hug:

[riderinthestorm]

11. Yup, my Irish granny was notorious for her use of a cast iron frying pan

in an argument.

While my mother is proud to be "lace curtain" Irish, in reality domestic violence was rampant in Irish households.

[Cerridwen]

15. My grandmother was the "lace curtain" Irish in my family.

To her dying day, she would not talk about the fact that her mother had divorced her father, circa 1908, because grandma's dad had beat grandma's mom. She "forgot" her father's name. Divorce was a "sin" and "didn't happen". An entire piece of her youth was wiped out in the name of "propriety."

[lonestarnot]

12. I knew one that 'shot'back.

Killed him back in the day. He had beaten her so badly that she was barely recognizable and stayed beat-up looking for months afterward. He was going to through her in an AZ mine, and she reached into the glove box for the hogleg and ended those plans of his. Not charged. Self defense. She's long gone now. End of story.

[Cerridwen]

18. Yep. I've heard those stories though I've not met those women...

that I know of.

A lot of stories made it into "family legends" that aren't taught in our history books.

[lonestarnot]

20. Not a family legend. Just truth in family history.

[Cerridwen]

22. I know. That's why I used the "scary" quotes. :D n/t

[Warpy]

19. All immigrant groups came over and started newspapers

in their native languages. All those newspapers had classified ads and all those ads had a personals section. Many of the personal ads were looking for husbands who'd left the family in order to seek their fortune.

When the Irish came over, it was the women who left.

[Cerridwen]

24. In the wave of immigration I read about, it was almost exclusively

Irish women coming to the US because of the land inheritance laws enforced on the Irish people by England.

Many of the Irish immigrant women went into domestic service and the teaching profession. It was argued, in this book I think, that the Irish Catholic influence in education was a part of the US Protestants' complaints about the early US education system; too Catholic for the Protestants. The US "ruling class" of Protestants were worried about the influence of the Pope and the Catholic Church on their Protestant children.

Now I gotta find that damned book.

[Warpy]

37. Read about the Philadelphia riots

in the 19th century after the city council proposed posting the ten commandments in classrooms. The riots started over which version to post (there are several in the KJV, alone, never mind the Douay) and eventually degenerated into anti-Irish, anti-immigrant riots.

The women who left their husbands mostly went into the factories, I think. Some did become domestics but few had the resources or education to become teachers.

[mzmolly]

23. What was the name of the book?

Sounds interesting.

[Cerridwen]

25. Ack! I'm working on my memory.

See upthread. If you'd like I'll also PM you the title of the book as soon as I find either the paper I wrote or the book title.

[EFerrari]

26. For the win.

:)

[Cerridwen]

29. Eh. There's a lot of "fun" in my dysfunctional.

:D

I hate "proper." But then, I'm "Celtic woman hands on hips" to my closest friends. :rofl:

[H2O Man]

28. Irish women

were one of the reasons that the Irish were not welcome in the northeast in the 1800s and early 1900s. Irish women had far more power within the context of the family than did women of other Euro-American backgrounds. It was feared that they would influence others. My book on the cultural contributions of the Irish in that era documents that quite well.

[Cerridwen]

30. That might explain why my foremother came to the west of what

was then the US.

Fewer established institutions and mores. You may have just given an answer to a question I've long had about my great, great grandmother.

Is the title of your book in your journal or available elsewhere? I'm in need of some reading material. :D

[H2O Man]

31. Let's talk on

DU's e-mail, and I'll be glad to mail you a copy.

[Cerridwen]

32. Perfect idea. n/t

[jwirr]

33. I hear you. Was pretty upset by that myself tonight. To each his own.

[Cerridwen]

34. Precisely. And thank you for hearing me. :) n/t