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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 10:16 AM
Original message
Critique of Marx's critique of Capitalism
http://blogs.hbr.org/haque/2011/09/was_marx_right.html

Let's take Marx's big critiques of industrial age capitalism, one by one (and with a grain of salt: since I'm far from a Marxist economist, it's entirely possible my quick, partial descriptions leave much to be desired).

Immiseration. Marx claimed that capitalism would immiserate workers: he meant that labor would be "exploited" — not just in a purely ethical sense, but in a narrower economic one: that real wages would fall, and working conditions would deteriorate. How was Marx doing on this score? I'd say middlingly: wages in many advanced economies — notably, the most purely capitalist in a financialized sense — have failed to keep pace with productivity; not for years, but for decades. (America's median wage has been stagnant for roughly 40 years.) In macro terms, labor's share of income has plummeted, while the lion's share of growth has accrued to those at the very top.


-snip-

Alienation. As workers were divorced from the output of their labor, Marx claimed, their sense of self-determination dwindled, alienating them from a sense of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. How's Marx doing on this score? I'd say quite well: even the most self-proclaimed humane modern workplaces, for all their creature comforts, are bastions of bone-crushing tedium and soul-sucking mediocrity, filled with dreary meetings, dismal tasks, and pointless objectives that are well, just a little bit alienating. If sweating over the font in a PowerPoint deck for the mega-leveraged buyout of a line of designer diapers is the portrait of modern "work," then call me — and I'd bet most of you — alienated: disengaged, demoralized, unmotivated, uninspired, and about as fulfilled as a stoic Zen Master forced to watch an endless loop of Cowboys and Aliens.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Now that the New Deal/Great Society era has largely
Edited on Wed Sep-07-11 10:29 AM by hifiguy
been repealed, Marx is doing very well indeed, at least in the sense of predictions. And I am not going to bash Marx for not predicting FDR and LBJ. But as far as the effects of untrammeled, laissez faire capitalism, Marx appears to have been nearly 100% correct, to which the last 30 years of US history testify overwhelmingly. It all would have come to pass a lot sooner save for FDR and LBJ.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The Capitalist need to understand that if they don't give a bit,
they will lose it all. History confirms that.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. No less than FDR
correctly claimed he was saving capitalism from itself by taking away the capitalists' absolute power. And he was entirely correct.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's true. I am pushing public financing for all federal elections
as a way to shift power away from the plutocrats.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Good luck on that.

How many legislators gonna vote to kill their gravy train?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. We give them two options. Neither one they will like, and
only one is the correct option.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. They can't give a bit...
Edited on Wed Sep-07-11 12:02 PM by blindpig
unless they're really scared as in the 30's, and then they must recover it all with interest, as we are experiencing now. Nothing is enough when increasing capital accumulation is the necessary law for every capitalists.

There is no fixing capitalism or regulating it, they own our society and will do with it as they see fit until that capability is removed from them.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. then what is the remedy?
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The working class must appropriate the means of production.

Nationalize the major business sectors.

Never said it would be easy.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Energy, healthcare, and finance at the least.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Now yer talkin'...

let's round out phase one with the prison industry, the MIC and private security firms.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Take the profit out of incarceration. I agree
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Those are the three places to start, that's for sure.
I see no need to nationalize gadget makers. People can live their lives nicely without them, and they are pure luxuries, perhaps the only thing that capitalism works perfectly in providing.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Financial Capitalism should be a crime.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Permanent surgical implantation of explosives ...
... into all office holders. If malfeasance or corruption is proved in a court then the key on the detonator is turned and ... bloooeeeeee.


Kind of like the death penalty is supposed to keep people from committing murder. Heck - it might even work.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Naw, an orange vest, a trash bag, and a spiked stick should be
the only career path open to them.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Ok - so you have a softer side than I do...
How about we compromise and send them to a devils island type complex?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm sure we could find creative places to pick up trash.
South Arizona or Louisiana in the summer, North Dakota in the winter would be a good start.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Alaska in the spring time --- without mosquito repellent....
:evilgrin:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. In the spring he could work in New Jersey as a sewer rat fluffier.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Someone sounds like they are in denial...
Since the past 10 years, if anything, have proved Karl Marx correct
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. It is an opinion piece, somewhat timid if the opening
paragraphs are any clue.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. It's an uncritical pro-Marxist piece, actually.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. Roubini: Marx Was Right. Capitalism May Be Destroying Itself.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It has morphed into a parasite. Capitalist found they can't
make enough money by making things, so now they just sit at a computer and suck money out of our system.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. If you don't donate to DU, then it will suck no money out of YOUR part of "the system."
DU isn't legally organized as a non-profit organization.

I presume that Skinner, EarlG, and Elad would prefer to be able to manage DU while camping and/or strolling in the park. Alas, I suspect that they spend a lot of time sitting at computers, or at least "glued to" devices that are connected to the internet.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. But Skinner, Elad, and EarlG give us something for our money.
The new Capitalist create nothing of value for the American people.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. When somebody spends his or her own money, and that somebody isn't you ...
how do you decide whether or not the people at the top of the hierarchy in the organization that received the money that was spent were merely sucking money out of "the system" and creating nothing of value for "the American people"?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I always do my homework before investing time or money
into any venture. I never bet more than I can afford to lose.

Anyway the admins here have low potential to cause harm to me or our nation, but the insurance company I use could cause us great harm.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-07-11 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. Marx's critique does not take into account globalization to any serious extent...
...and this piece itself fails to recognize the role globalization plays. While wages have been stagnant in the developed world for the most part, the developed world has enjoyed a relative level of luxury that overall wages represent. Wages stopped going up 40 or so years ago, energy use leveled off 40 or so years ago (following population and inflation trends), per-capita energy use dropped as efficiency standards kicked in.

Meanwhile globally capitalism goes on its merry way, world GDP grows at about 5% a year, and the income gap between developed and non-developed world is tightening quickly. Marx's predictions have fallen quite short of representing reality. They might have some resemblance to a single capitalist economy, but that's as far as it goes.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. But isn't globalization a move toward a single capitalist economy?
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Bullshit

Marx saw globalization and the financialization of the capitalist economy happening in his time. After all, what is imperialism? And where Marx leaves off Lenin picks up.

The income gap shrinking is nonsense in the face of the distribution of that income, virtually all of it goes to the local elites.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. This "filthy Trotskyist" agrees........
International working class solidarity was a HUGE part of Marx's philosophy. AND Lenin's. And yes, Trotsky's too.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Aw, now...

I ascribe to the principle of not airing our dirty laundry for the neighborhood. Well, I really try.

First things first.

Of course in our 'house' it's a different story.
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DrunkenBoat Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. "Modern industry has established the world market, for which the discovery of America paved the way"
his market has given an immense development to commerce, to navigation, to communication by land. This development has, in its turn, reacted on the extension of industry; and in proportion as industry, commerce, navigation, railways extended, in the same proportion the bourgeoisie developed, increased its capital, and pushed into the background every class handed down from the Middle Ages...

the bourgeoisie has at last, since the establishment of Modern Industry and of the world market, conquered for itself, in the modern representative State, exclusive political sway. The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie...

The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment”...It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom — Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation...

It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades...

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions everywhere...

The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image...

Just as it has made the country dependent on the towns, so it has made barbarian and semi-barbarian countries dependent on the civilised ones, nations of peasants on nations of bourgeois, the East on the West.

The bourgeoisie keeps more and more doing away with the scattered state of the population, of the means of production, and of property. It has agglomerated population, centralised the means of production, and has concentrated property in a few hands. The necessary consequence of this was political centralisation. Independent, or but loosely connected provinces, with separate interests, laws, governments, and systems of taxation, became lumped together into one nation, with one government, one code of laws, one national class-interest, one frontier, and one customs-tariff..."

- Communist Manifesto


On the Question of Free Trade

The Repeal of the Corn Laws in England is the greatest triumph of free trade in the 19th century. In every country where manufacturers talk of free trade, they have in mind chiefly free trade in corn and raw materials in general. To impose protective duties on foreign corn is infamous, it is to speculate on the famine of peoples.

Cheap food, high wages, this is the sole aim for which English free-traders have spent millions, and their enthusiasm has already spread to their brethren on the Continent...

Let us now see how the English free-traders have proved to the people the good intentions that animate them.

This is what they said to the factory workers:

"The duty levied on corn is a tax upon wages; this tax you pay to the landlords, those medieval aristocrats; if your position is wretched one, it is on account of the dearness of the immediate necessities of life."

The workers in turn asked the manufacturers:

"How is it that in the course of the last 30 years, while our industry has undergone the greatest development, our wages have fallen far more rapidly, in proportion, than the price of corn has gone up?

"The tax which you say we pay the landlords is about 3 pence a week per worker. And yet the wages of the hand-loom weaver fell, between 1815 and 1843, from 28s. per week to 5s., and the wages of the power-loom weavers, between 1823 and 1843, from 20s. per week to 8s.

"And during the whole of this period that portion of the tax which we paid to the landlord has never exceeded 3 pence. And, then in the year 1834, when bread was very cheap and business going on very well, what did you tell us? You said, 'If you are unfortunate, it is because you have too many children, and your marriages are more productive than your labor!'

"These are the very words you spoke to us, and you set about making new Poor Laws, and building work-houses, the Bastilles of the proletariat."

To this the manufacturer replied:

"You are right, worthy laborers; it is not the price of corn alone, but competition of the hands among themselves as well, which determined wages.

"But ponder well one thing, namely, that our soil consists only of rocks and sandbanks. You surely do not imagine that corn can be grown in flower-pots. So if, instead of lavishing our capital and our labor upon a thoroughly sterile soil, we were to give up agriculture, and devote ourselves exclusively to industry, all Europe would abandon its factories, and England would form one huge factory town, with the whole of the rest of Europe for its countryside..."

While thus haranguing his own workingmen, the manufacturer is interrogated by the small trader, who says to him:

"If we repeal the Corn Laws, we shall indeed ruin agriculture; but for all that, we shall not compel other nations to give up their own factories and buy from ours.

"What will the consequence be? I shall lose the customers that I have at present in the country, and the home trade will lose its market."

The manufacturer, turning his back upon the workers, replies to the shopkeeper:

"As to that, you leave it to us! Once rid of the duty on corn, we shall import cheaper corn from abroad. Then we shall reduce wages at the very time when they rise in the countries where we get out corn.

"Thus in addition to the advantages which we already enjoy we shall also have that of lower wages and, with all these advantage, we shall easily force the Continent to buy from us."

But now the farmers and agricultural laborers join in the discussion.

"And what, pray, is to become of us?

"Are we going to pass a sentence of death upon agriculture, from which we get our living? Are we to allow the soil to be torn from beneath our feet?"

As its whole answer, the Anti-Corn Law League has contented itself with offering prizes for the three best essays upon the wholesome influence of the repeal of the Corn Laws on English agriculture...

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
34. Copy from the printer friendly version of this thread ...
Edited on Fri Sep-09-11 10:41 AM by Boojatta
and, when you paste it, the result inexplicably displays:

"Font Script: CHINESE_GB2312"
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
35. it's pretty obvious the guy who wrote this did not bother to read marx
maybe he read some short interpretations of marx. or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
37. KARL MARXZ WAS 100% WRONG
about phrenology. he thought phrenology was a science. probably so did a lot of people back then.
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