Is 'Sister Wives' Hiding The Disturbing Truth About Polygamy?

[onpatrol98]

Sam Brower
Private Detective

Posted: 9/7/11 03:49 PM ET

Despite the recent well-publicized and deeply disturbing child molestation trial of self-proclaimed polygamist prophet Warren Jeffs, TV reality show polygamist Kody Brown and his trendy wives and family seem to be everywhere these days. Their TV show, "Sister Wives," is a big hit. They are constantly sought after for interviews and talk show fodder, and are even up for an Emmy nomination. It seems like every time I turn on the television I am seeing or hearing stories about their "...unconventional -- yet somehow relatable family." Unfortunately, that type of terminology, which is doled out in heaping portions by the media, has a dramatically different meaning for me than for others who seem to have been smitten by the show.

For more than seven years, as a private investigator I have been investigating and researching similar polygamous societies, but mainly the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) and its outlaw prophet, Warren Jeffs, who is now serving a sentence of life plus twenty years in a Texas prison. With respect to the polygamous cultures that I have been dealing with over the years, that type of unschooled and reckless terminology makes me recoil. I can only hope and pray that the depravity of child abuse and the degradation of women and children to the status of chattel will never be thought of in such a callous manner as simply- unconventional yet relatable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-brower/sister-wives-_b_952693.html

[Marrah_G]

1. I think there are all different kinds of polygamy

I think there are many with a cult like feel. Some have more of an alternative lifestyle s/m sort of slant and still others are just families who choose to live a bit differently then others.

It's the cult like ones, with leaders arranging marriage and underage uneducated members that do alot of harm.

It's rare for open or polygamous relationships to work outside the cult like atmosphere unless all the people are truly commited to each other and the well being of the entire family.

[SmileyRose]

2. Kody Brown is not part of the FLDS

But apparently they are breaking the law and whether the law is right or wrong he is putting his children in danger of being separated from their parents.

[onpatrol98]

25. Now, that's a good point.

[fishwax]

45. but he is (as I understand it) part of a fundamentalist LDS sect

The FLDS is not the only sect of fundamentalist mormons. Brown is (I get this only from publicity about the show--I haven't seen it myself so I could be wrong) part of the Apostolic United Brethren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_United_Brethren#Organization.

[hamsterjill]

48. That is a good point!

And TLC is choosing to give him a bully pulpit to showcase his lifestyle, which is apparently illegal.

Why is it that almost every show on TLC has to do with women having many children? Makes one wonder if they are trying to glamorize mega birthing.

[WolverineDG]

51. What's the difference between what he & his wives are doing

& what those in the mainstream do when they screw around on their spouses & have kids out of wedlock, or shack up & have kids? It's only "illegal" because they want to label themselves as "married."

dg

[riderinthestorm]

58. Legal binding contracts? Protection of assets? Just to name a few of the benefits of marriage

monogamy vs. the nightmare of polygamy.

The wife is MUCH better protected under the law financially.

[WolverineDG]

63. What's it to you if consenting adults want to live this way?

Why turn a blind eye to mainstream folks who screw around on their spouses or have multiple partners Where's your concern for the "wife" being much better protected in those scenarios?

Or are you of the belief that women are too weak & stupid to make up their own minds & therefore need "protecting?"

dg

[riderinthestorm]

76. Nope. Legally. Binding. Contracts. That's what this is about.

When you marry, you have many legal rights that accrus to you.

THAT matters to me. And when women get screwed out of their legal rights - even if/or because they are too stupid to realize they have those rights - it matters.

And it should matter to ALL of us. I make no broad brush statement that women are stupid, rather there are too many women who don't assert or know their rights. Polygamous cultures encourage subservience and ignorance amongst their women and I strongly object.

[WolverineDG]

78. Actually, you are making a broad brush statement

in that you believe women who make choices you don't agree with are too stupid or are "being screwed" out of their legal rights.

dg

[YellowRubberDuckie]

75. What I don't get is why get a marriage license and file it?

It is not illegal for consenting adults to live in a house together and it not be monogamous. Stop getting marriage licenses and stop filing for them. Poof. Problem fixed.

[Lionessa]

3. Mr Brower doesn't seem to understand that his key word is "fundamentalist," not polygamy.

To say that all women who choose polygamy are somehow too stupid to understand what they are doing gives credence to the idea that women are too stupid to choose abortion or divorce or marriage without the oversight of a parent or husband or government.

Fundamentalism whether it be LDS, Christian, or Islamic, is the cause of womens' and children's abuse, not polygamy and not women who choose polygamy. BTW, many women are bigamous with two men and one woman, I don't see anyone decrying the poor men are too stupid to know what they are doing.

This article is an insult to all women who might choose to make this choice, when it should be an assault on women in fundamentalist societies being forbidden to make choices regardless of whether they have one or more husbands.

[Bunny]

5. What are the statistics for one woman with more than one husband,

as compared to one man with more than one wife? Verifiable facts, please.

[Whisp]

9. I'm waiting to hear those stats too.

women have always chosen to be servile and second class....

:crazy:

[Recursion]

30. Polyandry is more rare historically but is far from unknown

It's practiced in Tibet, the Aleutian outback, parts of west Africa, the west coast of India (it just struck me -- lots of places with an ocean to the west... probably just a coincidence), and parts of Polynesia. In all cases, like with polygyny, it is reserved for the highest social classes.

Wiki has a decent article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry

[Warpy]

47. In Nepal, it's practiced to keep family land from being divided

among multiple sons, eventually leading to descendants without enough land to support themselves. A brother who doesn't want to join the group marriage to one woman generally leaves to find his fortune outside the family, either through manufacturing or soldiering.

[onpatrol98]

68. Really

I should get out more. It really would benefit me to know more about other cultures.

[InvisibleTouch]

6. It's akin to the debate about the burka, IMO.

Is it a symbol of oppression and misogyny? It certainly *can* be - but I think there are many, many Islamic women who choose to wear the burka or similar veil because they genuinely feel comfortable in it, or out of an intentional respect for their culture and traditions. I have totally no problems with that; it's none of my business how someone else chooses to dress. The key word being "chooses," of course. Likewise I have totally no problems with polygamous or polyandrous relationships if they are entered into freely and by choice by everyone involved. Why would I begrudge someone else a happy marriage or relationship?

So I agree, it can't all be painted with one broad brush of judgment.

[Lionessa]

13. Exactly. As a slender, somewhat busty woman, I got tired of the attention I recieve

and began about 10 years ago wearing a sort of burqa like outfit, black jeans, black t-runners, and a black loose fitting hoody. Can't see anything but my head (depending on weather if the hood is up or down) and my hands. It's damn similar in coverage to a burqa and for the same reason if I understand correctly that it's to waylay male attention, and since I'm entirely single and have been the entire decade, I'm pretty sure it's my own choice and not being forced on me, and since I'm an atheist, it can't be for religious or fundamental reasons. I just want to not be noticed for my body shape anymore, so I obscure it with bland, bagginess.

Choice is the thing. Fundamentalism tends to restrict womens' and childrens' choices through propaganda and structural intimidation, but that's fundamentalism interfering with choice, not polygamy, bigamy, or polyamory in and of itself.

[jberryhill]

36. Sorry, all women must display what we demand they display

Anything else is oppressive.

[riderinthestorm]

You are not dressing to erase yourself from society by being shrouded in a voluminous tent

with either eye slits or a screen across your eyes.

No comparison to a burqa.

Polygamy is destructive to women's legal rights (beyond the moral, ethical and secondary status issues). I'm not okay with that. The associated problems within families in regards to the children ("spare" boys getting chucked out when they grow old enough to compete for females), abuse of minor children and the extensive welfare fraud that is also associated with polygamy, it's a social issue that isn't simple.

[madmom]

79. Not to pick a nit here, but technically you were being forced to dress this way because

of the unwanted attention you were getting when not dressed this way. It should be up to the individual person to dress the way they feel comfortable without getting the unwanted attention from anyone.:shrug:

[me b zola]

16. When you are told you are worthless and ugly long enough

...you seek to hide yourself from other's eyes. Sorry, but healthy people don't want to hide away, abused people do.

[InvisibleTouch]

24. Or maybe they are told that they're so precious and beautiful...

...that their form is not for the eyes of the world.

We can't just make assumptions based on *our* cultural expectations.

[riderinthestorm]

60. But if they want to live in our culture, they will be expected to adhere to our cultural expectation

And being shrouded in such a way as to erase them from society doesn't conform to our cultural norms.

If you really believe the women who are enshrouded in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan do so because they are held as so "precious" by those cultures, I've got a bridge to sell you in Manhattan....

[Lionessa]

50. OR as I mention above, a person with fine personal esteem, simlply gets tired of the

inappropriate male response to being in 'normal' western women's clothing.

[SmileyRose]

85. Hey

:hug:

I know.

[Recursion]

28. I don't like the idea that the solution to the oppression of women...

... is for a different set of men to tell them what to wear and whom to marry.

[snooper2]

39. By default if you are a fundamentalist, you are stupid

That's the difference between people who really follow their holy book, and the ones who give it "lip service".

[WolverineDG]

52. It points out the hypocrisy of the left

in claiming that women have "choice," but supporting that "choice" only if they agree with it. (see: over-reaction to Tim Tebow's mom telling people she was glad she chose to keep her baby instead of having an abortion.)

dg

[Tx4obama]

4. The 'Sister Wives' family is NOT in a cult like the Jeff's cult.

They dress normally and are allowed to go to public school, etc.

It's the closed society cults that the police should be focused on.
The ones that live in fenced compounds.

[seabeyond]

18. i am thrilled they are "allowed" to go outside. good for daddy, to allow them

to do whatever....

[SmileyRose]

86. Actually

I've seen the show 2 times and it seems to me it's more like everyone makes their own decisions and respects each other. Nobody seems to really be "allowing" anyone to do anything. This doesn't mean they don't seek advice.

[marions ghost]

89. the women attracted to these situations are similar to cult members

psychologically. They are easily manipulated and usually have low self esteem.

The polygamous relationship is certainly not healthy for the women involved. And having multiple siblings of several different mothers is not a great situation for the children.

The man who chooses to do this has the most problems. Always a self-aggrandizing narcissist.

[aikoaiko]

7. For a NAU sociology class I interviewed a women who lived in Short Creek/Colorado City in the 1980s.

She was in her 50s by then and a bit of the town rebel. She wore jeans while working in the tomato field, for example.

She was one of seven wives and had 16 children if you counted the miscarriages (she did).

One of the lessons I learned from her was that she grew up in a culture with a certain view of God and what God expected of men and women, and she generally thought it was correct because that is all she really knew. She wasn't that different from most other Christians or religious believers that I've known. Most people get raised within a culture and just keep going with it -- good or bad or both.

Of course she didn't talk about forced child brides or the growing number of children suffering from fumarase deficiency.

She did talk about how she hated the way her community treated boys who were "difficult" and wished her community were more welcoming of outsiders.

Her husband and 2 town elders came to her house and ordered me to leave the town. I did. It was a long cold ride on my motorcycle through the res that night and I was bit paranoid of cars that rode up on my tail.

[SheilaT]

14. You've really nialed it when you say

"she grew up in a culture with a certain view of God and what God expected of men and women, and she generally thought it was correct because that is all she really knew."

That is so very true about almost all of us. Hardly anyone is willing to think through and really question the basic ideas that they have.

What bothers me overall about organized religion is that in the end the organization is saying, "We know the truth, and you must believe what we tell you to believe." Not all organized religions are terribly coercive, but in the end that's what underlies it all.

[onpatrol98]

26. If you counted the miscarriages (she did)

I think for many women, even if you don't say the number out loud (including miscarriages), you still think it.

[aikoaiko]

54. I mention the miscarriages only because some might doubt that 16 kids were possible.

If I understood her correctly she was pregnant very often from 17 years of age until her very early 40s.

She was 18 with her first child when the AZ state police raided Short Creek in the 1950s.

[seabeyond]

59. really, i didnt bat an eye. i know a lady who had 14. that is all full term.

i dont know if there were any miscarriages.

but i didnt even question it, but see why people would.

[onpatrol98]

66. I didn't question it.

My grandmothers had a LOT of children. I can't imagine what the total would have been if there were miscarriages as well.

[aikoaiko]

8. whoops, duped myself.

[Zoeisright]

10. I don't understand why that little creep isn't in jail.

He's blatantly breaking the law and making money off it.

[Warpy]

12. He hasn't had any charges stick

because only the first marriage was a legal one. Subsequent ones have been religious, only.

It's really none of my business how those folks run their lives. I watched for a while to see how they compared with polygamous families of consenting adults that I've known.

[WolverineDG]

74. For doing what?

Having multiple partners, all of whom are way above the age of consent & know what they're getting in to? The only "crime" is that they refer to each other as "husband & wives."

Precisely what crime would you have "that little creep" charged with?

dg

[Warpy]

11. That TV program is as unlike what Jeffs was doing as one could be

Jeffs is a charismatic cult leader who convinced old men that the laws didn't apply to them and engaged in trafficking underage girls to those old guys. Young boys who were old enough to develop a healthy interest in girls and offer competition were expelled from the cult, often dropped in the middle of nowhere with no way to fend for themselves and nothing to do but face life on the street. (see: lost boys)

The TV family might be airbrushed, but the guy picks on women his own age. His present wives have veto power over any new wife in the family. The newest wife is a divorcee with children.

Polygamy didn't appeal to me but I've known polygamous households with consenting adults. I don't see the fuss over it, the women in these families cited the support from other women regarding childcare and household chores to be the biggest advantage. Academically talented wives went to higher education and ended up bringing more money into the family while domestically talented wives kept the household running. It's the closest a woman professional can come to having a wife the way men do.

I really don't care what most households are structured like. I think we all have to figure that one out for ourselves. Polygyny and polyandry are just more choices in that crazy salad known as normal human sexuality.

[nenagh]

15. I don't know can I reply without an understanding of the groups involved..

I was thinking of 'Sister Wives' in terms of Pharoah's marrying their sister because, as I understand it, the royal line was matralineal...or through the mother..

But this hodge-podge of older men marrying ever more youthful brides.. just how inbred do the family lines become?

I really don't think the criteria revolves around human sexuality, although that is one aspect to be sure. But it is the coersion and the seeming reality that these women are rendered unable to choose a different lifestyle.. and the aspect of coercion of young females is abhorrent. At the very least.

Because of reading DU today, I read about Calvinism, which was pretty daunting.... but the use and abuse of women in this type of cult is beyond frightening to me..

[Warpy]

46. Here's the Wiki article

to bring you up to speed on the telly show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Wives

The polygamist communities do tend to get a little inbred because people within them tend to stay within them and few outsiders join, although movement in and out certainly isn't unheard of. Legal paranoia also prevents a lot of them from sending their kids to public schools and even accessing health care services for things like childbirth. It's not an easy life and it's made tougher by legal restrictions and cultural prejudice.

The bottom line with this particular guy is that he's not marrying younger and younger women. In fact, his new wives seem to have gotten older as he has, and the latest one is a divorcee with children. It's a fairly reasonable look at an alternative way to organize a household and meant to counteract some of the prejudice that Warren Jeff's cult has instilled.

[riderinthestorm]

61. I challenge you to read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by James Krakauer. (shudder) nt

[Raine]

17. I've watched the show, a couple of the wives have a

really difficult time with it. It's a struggle for them, though they always say they feel they are a "better person" because of living the lifestyle. I still don't know why they want to live a life that makes them so unhappy. :shrug: Interesting that one time the subject came up about the wives taking multiple husbands and Corry (the husband) said the idea of that was repulsive. So it seems even with a "modern" polygamous family it's still totally a man's world. x(

[seabeyond]

19. an indication tht it is control and dominance and woman submissive and subservient

"wives taking multiple husbands and Corry (the husband) said the idea of that was repulsive."

if he sees it as only one way.

it about says it all

[Blue_Tires]

23. +1

[Le Taz Hot]

33. I think there are two seperate issues here:

religion and lifestyle. All three major religions are misogynistic and this particular sect of Christianity is no different. Yes, the basis for their polygamous lifestyle is patriarchal, otoh, it IS a lifestyle choice and, as consenting adults, they should be free to make that choice without harassment.

[seabeyond]

40. lol

i am not harrassing them. on the other hand, that does not mean that i cannot conclude, if a gender says, it is good and right for my gender to do it, but revolting for the other, that is a HUGE tell sign.

i dont give a shit what these people chose.

i am not going to pretend it is all rosy either, nor the red flag showing it is about dominance and controlsubmissive adn subservient.

[Le Taz Hot]

41. The harassment comment was in reference to law enforcement

in Utah. They were forced to move to Nevada as they were afraid the father was going to be arrested.

On edit: Changed "Arizona" to "Nevada."

[seabeyond]

42. ah...

i dont know the show at all. does he provide for all the wives and children, or does the govt?

and on edit... if they are not legally married, how can cops harrass them and why would they, in utah. most accepted place in u.s.

[Le Taz Hot]

43. He works full-time and three of the four wives

work(ed) outside of the home. When the show first aired, one of the wives was actually fired from her job when the employers found out she was a polygamist. The newest wife resigned her position when she "married" and had to relocate to be with the rest of the family.

When they moved to Nevada they were ALL out of a job and that was where the season ended. I would imagine they're getting mucho dinero for the show itself but there's been no indication that they're receiving any type of government assistance.

As to why they had to move, iirc, there was either a state or county ordinance (law?) that prohibits polygamy even if he's only legally married to one of them. Apparently Nevada doesn't have the same types of restrictions.

I'm not much into TV ("Sons of Anarchy" notwithstanding) but I happened to run across it when channel surfing. It's interesting from a sociological perspective -- particularly the interaction and dynamics among and between the "sister-wives."

Edited because I apparently can't spell this week. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

49. giggled at editing comment

thanks for the info. though it may not seem so, i do find it interesting in the same manner, and though i have my opinion, what these people do are not my business.

thank you for the bet of info. appreciate.

my one show is top shots... i like the dynamics of all the competitive men together and see how the group interacts, as much as the skill with shooting, or the ones that choke, or make excuses, or accept failure.... this year though, they have a lot less of interaction and not nearly as much fun.

thanks

[WolverineDG]

53. Because it's illegal for them to consider themselves "married"

if it were just Cody & his first wife living with 3 other women who were called "girl friends," no law would be broken. But simply calling the other three "wives" IS illegal, not just in Utah, but any state that has a bigamy statute.

dg

[kelly1mm]

55. Do you have a cite for that? In some states with 'common law marriage'

I can see where you would be right as one of the usual elements of common law marriage is holding themselves out as husband and wife to the public. Is that the case in the state where Sister Wives is set?

I can say that what they are doing would probably not be illegal in Maryland, which does not recognize the formation of common law marriage in the state (it may be illegal if they set up common law marriage in another state and moved to Maryland, as Maryland will recognize common law marriages formed in other states where it is legal)

[WolverineDG]

56. Check out the UT & TX bigamy statutes nt

[kelly1mm]

57. Thanks! I checked out the Utah statute. Maybe that is why they moved

to Nevada. Not illegal there apparently. Also, I see that they have filed suit in Federal court in Utah in July, 2011 to have the bigamy statute ruled unconstitutional, based mainly on Lawrence v. Texas principles of privacy among consenting adults. Should be an interesting case.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

62. They are already married to one person.

In Texas you can't have a common law marriage if you're already married to someone else, or not divorced from them.

It's called a "prior impediment".

Yes I am a lawyer but I do not practice law and I do not play one on TV, unlike Spader. :D

The common law marriage statute has nothing to do with bigamy. There is a bigamy statute in Texas.

[kelly1mm]

65. I referred to common law marriage for the states such as Maryland

in which bigamy means being legally married to two different people. In the Sister Wives instance, since he is only legally married to one wife and 'spiritually' married to the others, he would not be committing the crime of bigamy in Maryland. I also pointed out that while MD does not recognize common law marriage that occur in the state, it does recognize those that occur out of state and later move to MD. Although there are two additional wrinkles in that MD's bigamy statute technically outlaws the second (or later) marriage ceremonies as being the main element of the crime so common law marriages without a ceremony (kind of the definition) may be a loophole. Secondly, it is a crime in Maryland to commit adultery. So, although not guilty of bigamy, he would be guilty of adultery in Maryland. However, the punishment is a $10 fine. The main reason it is still on the books is to allow spouses to plead the 5th in divorce actions and not have to air their dirty laundry.

[onpatrol98]

67. I did not know that.

So...by saying they're married, even though by law they aren't...they're breaking the law. I had no idea.

[WolverineDG]

73. You'd think someone would have to do a bit more than that to be charged with a crime

but nope.

dg

[lindysalsagal]

70. Reality show volunteers deserve whatever harassment they generate.

If they wanted respect, they wouldn't be on the ridiculous show in the first place. They're doing it for the money and attention. This marriage needs alot of people in it, including wives, children, producers, directors, cameramen, caterers, techies, on and on. That's why the morons with the 8 kids did it: they didn't have a real marriage to ruin. They were already a sideshow.

[Le Taz Hot]

80. Including losing a long-held job

because of a lifestyle choice? Really?

[onpatrol98]

29. That's a good point!

Is it that women are wired differently? Or, that men are less likely to tolerate sharing a woman with several men? What does that say about men and women, in general? Probably, nothing. But, that's interesting. Surely, there is at least one instance of it.

[CanonRay]

20. I don't have a problem with multiple partners

if all parties are in agreement, are free to leave, have equal legal status, and it involves no minors or coercion.

[Le Taz Hot]

21. I think it's absurd to equate the two.

The first IS a cult -- members keep within their respective compounds, no TV, no outside contacts, severe "discipline" and obeying, without question, the "prophet." Oh yeah, and pedophilia. The second has none of those descriptors. All of the women were ADULTS when they CHOSE this particular lifestyle and they're very out in the open with their beliefs. It's basically a religious-based polyamory. Alternative lifestyles (for want of a better term) make a lot of people uneasy. The author may be one of those.

[laureloak]

22. Is there a reason why women don't take multiple husbands?

[AngryAmish]

27. 1. It is illegal.

2. Most women don't want more than one husband and most men would not like to be in that situation.

[jberryhill]

37. It is legal for any number and type of people to live in voluntary association...

...and call it whatever they like.

What becomes illegal is when they do things like claiming various tax statuses, or seeking AFDC under a false status.

[onpatrol98]

31. I should have read your post before adding my own upstream

I'm wondering the same thing. I mean in these relationships of men with several women, the women are supposed to stick to just that one man. Is it that most men wouldn't find that arrangement appealing. Although they have no problem sleeping with multiple partners,they won't tolerate a woman who will UNLESS the relationship permits them to do it also.

In other words, either I can or we both can. But you can't alone...if that makes sense. A woman probably can't have several husbands, because men aren't wired to accept the arrangement of "she" gets to be the only one with that many "options".

[Recursion]

34. Polyandry does happen, though not as often as polygyny worldwide

Now, plenty of women have sex with multiple men while married; but formal social recognition of polyandry is more rare, though it's far from unknown.

From an evolutionary standpoint we mate very differently from basically every other animal. Unlike most other species, people want to have sex at all points in the fertility cycle. We also have miscarriages at a much higher rate than other species. There's a spectrum of evolutionary strategies called r/K: r animals have tons and tons of offspring and invest little in raising them; K animals have few offspring and devote significant resources to them. Humans are already extremists on the K end of the spectrum; our high miscarriage rate seems to be part of a selection strategy that continues that. Polyandry actually pushes us farther along the K line, so I suppose in that sense it's surprising that it isn't more widely practiced than it is.

[krabigirl]

69. because it would be way too much work!

[hunter]

71. MiddleFingerMom posted this in the Lounge a few months ago...

[onpatrol98]

87. Lol...

Too funny

:rofl:

[FreeState]

82. In Mormonism it's because women can not hold the priesthood

Only men can - women have a special calling to serve men. It's pure BS but that's the belief. (And yes mainstream Mormons still practice doctrinal polygamy in the Temple).

[mopinko]

32. we evolved from polygamist animals.

it is in our dna. as is monogamy, i suppose, in certain circumstances.
but i find it mostly to be, well, unevolved.

[undeterred]

72. Do you have proof?

[Alcibiades]

81. Interesting question

There's no "proof" that our hominid ancestors lived in polygamous or "harem" structures. What there is is evidence based on what we know about our other primate relatives today. For example, the more extreme the sexual dimorphism, the more likely you have some sort of harem system: the classic example is the silverback gorilla, much larger and more powerful than the females with whom he breeds.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/318/5855/1363.1.summary

We know from gorillas that the reason that males get so big and powerful is to protect their offspring and harem from other males. It's not uncommon in mammalian species that have "big daddy" model of family formation for a younger, stronger male to move in and take over the pride, and the first order of business will be to kill to offspring of the last chief, as we see in lions, as well as gorillas. Significantly, these are both species where a lot of collective effort is invested in the offspring, which is almost certainly also true of our hominid ancestors.

On the other hand, there's the female orgasm. What's up with that? To the mix of size and power, our ancestral hominids had also the phenomenon of actually mutually enjoyable sexual reproduction, something that makes us almost unique in the animal kingdom. This formed another basis for inter-male competition. We know, for example, that penis sizes are related to family formation in primates. "Penis size is sexually selected only in ape species like chimps and humans where the female exercises mate choice. Silverback male gorillas, by contrast, monopolise a harem of females and are poorly endowed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/06/women-penis-size
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8153136

There's more, of course, to include such things as oral sex and homosexuality seen from the perspective of evolutionary biology. What's interesting is that, given the number of mating strategies we see in primates, it is quite likely that humans have evolved under a number of different conditions. Some of our ancestors may have seen the fierce patriarchally-enforced polygamy of the gorilla, and some under the promiscuous and matriarchal system of the bonobos. It may be that both systems lay within us.

Or it could be that we are culturally conditioned creatures who also have free will.

[seabeyond]

83. .

i arhue this almost religiously. lol. you are the first i have seen that approaches it from.... who knows. here's info, can be a number of things, all things, or...

i like

kudos to you

[Alcibiades]

90. I don't know

It could well be the case that our hominid ancestors were monogamous, serially monogamous, polygamous, polyandrous or any other number of things. I don't know personally, other than it's pretty certain they were not abstinent. I personally think that some sort of monogamous arrangement happened fairly quickly in our species, given the amount of time and effort it takes to rear children, and there have been folks who have suggested this is why women live longer than men--if grandmothers help with childcare and grandfathers don't, there is a survival benefit to women living longer.

It's likely that the premise--that there was one family arrangement under which our ancestors evolved--is false to begin with. Humans probably lived in small, related tribal groups, and that the groups that survived also probably had strong taboos against close relatives having sex. But as far as who was fathering whose offspring, we have no idea. We see so many different arrangements today, that there's no reason to expect that there were not many different arrangements in the past.

[jberryhill]

35. Did "Cheers" Hide The Disturbing Truth About Alcoholism?

[DirkGently]

38. Sounds like ethnocentric moralizing. There's no child abuse or misogyny in "traditional" marriage?

What's the supposed inherent issue with polygamy? Child "brides" and treating women like chattel was and is still an element in monogamous marriage.

The number of partners seems like cultural preference to me. People have all kinds of relationships, with all number of people.

Why would the question of whether it's healthy, ethical, and fair depend on how many people are involved?

[sarcasmo]

44. One wife has been more than plenty for me.

[Avalux]

64. When women don't have a choice or control of their lives, it's wrong. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

77. I don't understand why people want to hurt this family.

They have not hurt anyone else. What makes us want to hurt peaceful people?

[Orangepeel]

84. I've seen this show, and it's not women being oppressed.

It's several women who choose to live with a doofus.

[LeftyMom]

88. EXACTLY. I'm not sure how that dork found one woman to marry him, let alone four.

The kids seem happy, I guess that's what counts. :shrug: