It blows my mind that people are still insisting that Lougner

[cali]

isn't acutely mentally ill.


The evidence of his mental illness is overwhelming, and though it isn't usual, in this case, literally scores of eminent psychiatrists have weighed in saying they think it looks like schizophrenia.

No, of course most murderers aren't severely mentally ill, but Loughner almost undoubtedly is.

[MadHound]

1. Some people simply want to score political points,

Even though, as the president pointed out last night, this isn't the time to do so.

[mstinamotorcity]

2. The second -handed Sunday review

of everybody's opinion is mind boggling. We want to believe he was mentally unstable. Easier to believe than finding out he was just a plain old person with a cold heart with some murder on his mind.

[cali]

3. no, sorry. as I said the evidence is overwhelming.

[shanti]

69. cali, i believe so too

and if one personally knows someone who is schizophrenic, it's hard to miss the signs.

[JuniperLea]

92. Bingo...

And it's very difficult to watch a family hold their breath until the rest of the kids pass their 30th birthday is exhausting. Most of the time these things are hereditary... and they show up in late teens, early 20's. The hereditary factor is almost non-existent after a person's 30th birthday.

I feel for his parents, but at the same time I wish they had faced the situation head on when the signs first appeared.

[mstinamotorcity]

120. I understand your position.

There are reports from individuals who have known this young man and stated that he was very troubled.My only problem is whenever someone does something drastic or hard for the mind to conceive any other possibility than psychosis,it is futile to try and figure out what was going through their mind at the time of inflicting harm on some innocent people. I believe he had issues,but I also think it takes a lot to plan and execute an attempt on someone's life. Just my opinion. Its like the media saying this is not political. Except it happened to a political figure at a political event.But its not political. Not trying to invalidate your point just questioning other points.

[slackmaster]

4. Some people are seeking affirmation for their political choices by assigning Loughner...

...to the side of meanness and horribleness.

I don't need to do that in order to know that I've chosen the side of goodness and niceness.

[seabeyond]

5. i havent seen anyone insist he is not mentally ill. i have heard people say

they will will until they get a source, but most all of us assumes he is. we understand it is an assumption.

but i dont see anyone INSISTING he isnt.

are you

[socialist_n_TN]

10. And that's the trick. I've seen a lot of posts.............

on HERE of all places telling us not to assume that he was a RWer, yet they ALL assume that he was mentally ill. We don't really know about either, BUT I think that one assumption is as good as another. And it COULD be both. He could be a mentally ill RWer.

[seabeyond]

36. that has been my perspective.... nt

[slackmaster]

Rather than assuming he's mentally ill, they do something equivalent by assuming it was political

Specifically an attack by the right on the left.

[seabeyond]

37. ok... but off what has been shown to us. again, i see no difference with illness or rw

both are assumptions off info we have.

still

i am not seeing anyone insist he is not ill. and because a person may think he is rw, and/or influenced by right doesnt mean that they are insisting he is not ill, too.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. The problem for him was the premeditation.

I don't think the insanity plea will work for him because of the way our laws are written.

[cali]

7. I'm not talking about whether he'll be found not guilty by reason of insanity

I think you're right, and likely he will be. Hell, Andrea Yates was originally found guilty. I'm talking about whether he's acutely, floridly mentally ill.

Oh, and people with acute mental illness do not invariably lack the capacity to plan.

[bdamomma]

72. interesting comment, wasn't he after her for a long time.

[kestrel91316]

9. Correct. Schizophrenics are perfectly capable of intricate planning.

The trouble is, their motivations come from delusions. They truly believe that their thoughts are correct.

It's a disease, not a character defect. Doesn't mean their aren't some nasty, evil people who also happen to be schizophrenic at some point, , but the law needs to assess the true person and not the schizophrenic behavior, and it doesn't have a way to do that.

[Common Sense Party]

21. John Hinckley Jr. engaged in lots of premeditated planning, preparing,

writing notes. His preparations were under way when Carter was still president.

And he was found insane.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. I believe I heard on the news that the laws were tightened BECAUSE

of Hinckley. So it will be harder for Loughner. (Did I spell that right? Sounds like loner.)

[Common Sense Party]

46. I hadn't heard that, but Googled and you are correct:

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/01/10/2574496/insanity-defense-difficult-for.html

And yes, you spelled it correctly. I think it's pronounced loff-ner.

[randr]

8. I don't think he is anymore ill than rush or beck.

[cali]

12. I do. I think they're both hateful people

but I don't think that makes them automatically acutely mentally ill (though I certainly have my doubts about Beck)

[Toucano]

15. I think that's the point being missed.

Beck makes an incoherent, conspiracy laden and tear-fueled rant on television and he's a pundit.

Someone else posts the same things online and he's "acutely mentally ill".

I'm not really qualified to say in either case, but I would like to see both be examined by someone who is qualified.

Boehner's continued lack of self-control is also quite unsettling. It's not AT ALL about being sensitive and expressing your emotions. His insistence on crying all the time is unusual, at best.

[aquart]

50. That's ridiculous. Seriously. Don't go around saying that.

Rush and Beck know how to turn hate into hard cash. All this poor schmuck could do was kill. He couldn't make it pay for him at all. Couldn't manage college. Couldn't successfully enlist. They can function. He could not.

[BeFree]

11. So are most conservatives

They are mentally ill. The problem comes when they have a gun, right?

I say we make them all carry guns on their hips so that we can see they are scared little asswipes that must be avoided.
Yep, give them the 'mark of the beast'.

[cali]

13. no, they're not. And you demean mentally ill people when you suggest that.

[BeFree]

17. Yes, they are mentally ill

They support GWB and hate Obama because he is black.

Am I wrong?

[End Of The Road]

57. Big difference between mentally ill and just plain stupid. nt

[BeFree]

79. Eh?

You think racism is just being stupid?

[Recursion]

101. Yes, you are wrong

They were just as unhinged about WJC, and he's not black (unless you believe Maya Angelou).

Conservatism is not a mental illness, nor even a character defect. It's a different way of seeing the world than ours. And seriously saying "all conservatives are mentally ill" is frankly creepy.

[BeFree]

113. well

Of course we are talking about the present day conservatives and especially those who are politically active.

The Goldwater conservatives, however, even those were whacked.

You pointed out how 'unhinged' the cons were with WJC, was not that mentally ill practice? Yes.

Look, why anyone would want to defend the whacked cons is beyond me, but if you feel the need to do so there really are better places to do so. Here, the cons are known to hate us, to 'target' us and wont to do us harm. They are mentally ill, whacked out and a danger to society. Thank gawd they are somewhat controlled or we would have a Tuscon event everyday, I fear.

[elocs]

14. Yes, he so clearly is for any of us who know the signs and symptoms.

Flags waving and sirens sounding.

[Jefferson23]

16. Drew Westen , psychologist and neuroscientist:

As a psychologist, I find it remarkable that we’re having this discussion at all, especially in light of both the weight scientists put on prediction – Gabby Giffords’ own interview at the Capitol during the election when she warned that Palin putting people like her in the crosshairs has “consequences”— and what we know about what neuroscientists call priming, the influence of a prior stimulus on a later reaction, usually unconsciously.

Do we really believe that physician George Tiller’s assassination by a radical Christian jihadist was totally random, casually unrelated to Bill O’Reilly’s constant reference to “Tiller the Killer”? The terrorist who killed Dr. Tiller had over 300 million other targets and chose this one. That should have prompted congressional hearings on incitement or perhaps even a Justice Department investigation.

Did O’Reilly kill Tiller? No. Did he explicitly or implicitly egg on the killer? Yes. It doesn’t matter that the shooter might need to be a radical religious fanatic, a technically sane but paranoid-leaning right-wing authoritarian personality (a well-studied construct), or someone who is clearly psychotic (as in Loughner’s case).

If you create a culture of hate, replete with people brandishing weapons at political events, as they did last summer and are permitted to do in Arizona, eventually one of the 300 million people in this country will be influenced by your words to act. Did Palin literally mean to imply with her crosshairs that someone should kill Gabby Giffords? I don’t know her mind, nor what she consciously intended (which I am sure was metaphorical, not a call to action) and what she unconsciously intended (which none of us knows).

But the entire culture of the right has become a culture of vitriol that includes the idea of using bullets if ballots fail, and it is not equivalent to Keith Olbermann or Rachel Maddow pointing that out and attacking that for its dangerousness — a false symmetry perpetrated by the media attempting to be “fair and balanced.”

Our political culture now countenances paranoid personalities with low IQs, poor self-restraint, and absolute conviction in their ideas — and in the evil of those who disagree with them — to “lock and load” on their way to Congress, whether as a member or as a bully with a guy outside town hall meetings. And our media no longer call them out for either being unstable or ignorant.

That is the context in which a member of Congress is now in intensive care with certain survival but uncertain quality of life. Sarah Palin is only the tip of an iceberg, and you can see fanaticism and fascism from her porch.

http://www.politico.com/arena/

edited for clarity.

[iamthebandfanman]

18. i agree he definitely has a mental illness

just based off of the things he posted on you tube to be honest.

honestly though, that just makes him more susceptible to the hate talk from the right.


do i think politics are completely to blame? No. Were they a factor? Hell yes.


when people spit out this hatred, they dont realize that EVERYONE is listening. that includes unstable people.

[LisaL]

20. He was upset over bad grammar.

You might as well blame those who have bad grammar.

[seabeyond]

39. he could have also been posting while under the influence which would also give appearance

of being ill.

just saying.

again, with saying this, it does not in anyway suggest i INSIST he is not ill. i tend to the mental disorder perspective, along with rw perspective adn yes.... influenced by media and net.

[Toucano]

19. How is this different from Bill Frist diagnosing Terri Schaivo over the tv machine?

Can't we wait for a qualified diagnosis of the guy without the aid of television cameras?

[davidthegnome]

28. That's what I was thinking - and

Mentally ill or not, this is a malicious, dangerous and hate filled man. I've known a number of schizophrenics that have never hurt anyone. Part of the problem with our system is that many immediately conclude that if the criminal is mentally ill, we should be sympathetic and perhaps lighten the sentence. I couldn't disagree with that stance more strongly than I do. It is an insult to those who suffer with mental illness yet remain peaceful.

I have sympathy for the mentally ill provided they are not murdering scum. I have none at all for this man, regardless of whether he is mentally ill. In any event, I truly hope the consequences of his actions are severe.

[HuckleB]

35. It is not any different.

Therein lies one of the many problems with the blame it all on mental illness argument.

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. Well no, it's vastly different

There's ample evidence that Loughner suffers acute psychosis. Evidence ranging from the nature and content of his posts in various online forums and on Youtube, Facebook etc to the accounts of acquaintances, classmates, and teachers (along with his suspension from school for his behaviour pending mental assessment to guarantee he wasn't a threat to himself or others). There's a lot of evidence on that side. In point of fact, the people who are behaving like Bill Frist in the Schiavo case are the ones who wilfully ignore the evidence of acute psychosis in favour of their insistence that Loughner MUST have been politically motivated, because, damn the evidence, it doesn't fit with what they want to see.

[HuckleB]

44. Talk about hogwash.

You choose to ignore the right wing extremist nature of his most recent postings, but are absolutely sure you can give a specific mental health diagnosis from the same information.

Wow!

:wow:

[Spider Jerusalem]

52. Thanks for proving my point

And it's not just THAT information, it's the evidence of people who knew him and who have reported his behaviour, etc. Whatever ill-formed and inconsistent poltical ideas he may have had are of less relevance than his evident psychosis and capacity for violence.

[HuckleB]

106. That's funny.

You proved my point, I showed how, and your response is to pretend that I proved your point?

:rofl:

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. Yep, because 'oh no, it HAS TO BE POLITICAL' is your only response

which again...proves my point. Since you're choosing to ignore that he's evidently mentally disturbed and suffering from acute psychosis in favour of grasping at some explicitly political and moreover right-wing motivation.

[HuckleB]

109. Now, you put words in my mouth.

Yes, you are continuing to prove my point, over and over again.

Please continue to do so.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. . . . .

[justiceischeap]

23. I'm waiting for a diagnosis from someone who's actually interviewed the guy

One of his ex-girlfriends came out and said she thought he was faking it (his mental illness). I know people who have some really, really whacked out ideas and beliefs and they aren't mentally ill.

Lets save the diagnosis until he's actually diagnosed.

PS - I'm not saying he isn't mentally ill, I'd just like to hear from someone who's seen the dude in person... you know, like a doctor.

[LisaL]

25. I'd say.

An expert should really examine the guy first before making diagnoses.

[uppityperson]

65. That is my thought also. Thanks. eom

[reformist2]

26. Some people are afraid to say that, because then it means "society" should have done something.

And as we all know too well, conservatives are paranoid at the idea of government getting involved in anything.

[justiceischeap]

30. If anyone should had done something, it was his MySpace friends

He pretty much announced his intentions on his MySpace page (http://animalnewyork.com/2011/01/arizona-shooters-myspace-page/) and no one reported it.

I know it all seems neener, neener, neener but people need to start taking shit seriously when they see things like his postings and informed the police. If one of his friends had called the police and said, listen, it may be nothing but my buddy is posting some pretty seriously screwed up shit on his MySpace page, this may have been avoided.

[Rex]

27. People got all upset when others said he was influenced by RWing

hatemongers. Expect people to get mad over the insanity thing too. You just can't please all the people, all the time even if the very thing is right under their noses.

[HuckleB]

34. The problem seems to be that ...

... some want to blame his probable mental illness in a vacuum. They dismiss all evidence, and any possibility, that he may have been influenced by extreme right wing nonsense out of hand. For them, that possibility does not exist. It's a bit bizarre.

[seabeyond]

41. again, i have yet to see ONE post that insists he is not ill. so i am not sure what this argument

is about....

[Goblinmonger]

48. That's a pretty low standard you set to be disproven.

Not ONE? Are you even looking?

[seabeyond]

49. well, ya, been here since saturday reading the threads. have you seen any? link, please.

the low standard is to chew people out for doing something that appears they are not doing.

but thanks for playing the game.

[Goblinmonger]

59. I can see how you might have missed this one

since you were the second person to post in this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x192221

I bet if you look really hard (not going to call anyone out specifically because it's against the rules), you can find a post of someone saying that he isn't mentally ill.

Thank YOU for playing.

[seabeyond]

67. no i did not miss it. i saw no one insisting the man is not mentally ill. people open to

maybe he is, maybe he isnt. we dont know. hasnt been evaluated, or we havent been given the info.

hardly the same, now is it.

[Goblinmonger]

85. What exactly does

"crazy like a fox" mean to you, then?

[seabeyond]

86. it means, the poster saying he could very well be pretending to be nuts. big deal.

you are reading an awful lot into that as if it is a poster holding the position that he is not mentally ill, period, no flexibility or open mind to otherwise.

those four words are not adament like... i know he is nuts, obvious he is nuts, psychiatrists from afar have declared he is not, ergo, means he is nuts.

[Goblinmonger]

87. Your song and dance gets a little old.

You said you have seen not ONE post of someone saying he isn't mentally ill. When shown one, you then say that that post means he could "very well be pretending." There is no equivocation in that post. It is a four word post. The message is clear. He is pretending to be crazy. Like a fox would. Coy. Cunning. You really have no room to play semantic games on this one.

[seabeyond]

89. i am sorry, i am not a mind reader, and i dont assume to know a posters thinking when not shared.

crazy like a fox does not tell me that the poster INSISTS, KNOW that the shooter is not mentally ill.

he can just as easily be saying, .... there is that. a possibility.

but i DO KNOW that you dont know either.

[seabeyond]

90. instead of guessing, i asked. simple. i dont like to assume. nt

[seabeyond]

94. looks to me like he is saying we dont have the information. again, that is not INSISTING....

"are you saying psychiatry has advanced to the point where "remote diagnoses" are reliable?"

[librechik]

29. The fact that he is (likely) paranoid schizophrenic does not eliminate the role of politics

in the incident. His thinking was deranged, but he had latched on to objects of hatred in his schema. Paranoia makes enemies out of phantoms. It was an imaginary Giffords he attacked.

[ProfessorGAC]

31. I Think It's Clearly An Exacerbating Factor

Not only does it not eliminate it, but i would surmise it was at least tangentially a triggering mechanism.

Do you have to kill because you have a mental illness? No.

Do you have to kill because you listen to someone on the radio that spews hateful rhetoric? No.

Is it more likely that you could be driven to kill when you are mentally ill and you listen to radical political rhetoric? My guess is yes.

And, when you run campaigns targeting the lunatic fringe as your base, you'll end up getting the lunatic fringe as your disciples. The percentage of mentally ill people in the lunatic fringe is unlikely to be any lower than the population as a whole.

So, i'd say you're being too kind by saying his illness doesn't eliminate the political factor. I'd say it gives the political factor even more leverage in the outcomes.
GAC

[HuckleB]

38. +1

[sofa king]

40. Can the fellow be a right-wing authoriarian AND a p. schizophrenic?

Is there any reason why these two disorders cannot coexist within one person at the same time?

Both RWAs and paranoid schizophrenics are primarily motivated by fear, aren't they?

So a paranoid schizophrenic might easily gravitate toward far right-wing rhetoric, then jump the rail straight to crazy town because the p.s. cannot penetrate the supposedly metaphorical intent of the militant language.

I, uh, doubt I'm using the proper terminology here. I'm not a psychologist, just a patient.

[Imajika]

60. So your saying he's a right wing paranoid schizophrenic...

...who is also an atheist and makes video's of himself burning the American flag - and one of his primary efforts of late was to create a super dream consciousness. Umm, yeah, sure.

Oh, and his rightwingyness is an anger that the government is using mind control via grammar to brainwash us. And when he had a chance to talk to Giffords in 2007 his question was "what is government if words have no meaning"? And he was so taken by the heated rhetoric that he didn't even bother to vote in 2010.

Continued attempts to try to link Laughner to the right or left are beyond ridiculous. His reasons for doing this are going to be beyond anything we will ever understand because this was likely driven phantoms in his own mentally diseased mind.

[sofa king]

77. I'm saying that if he can't think logically for himself...

... he's more likely to buy into the fallacious logic that appeals to right-wing authoritarians, who also can't think for themselves.

So yes, I think he can be a batshit crazy loon and gravitate toward a political philosophy that is also paranoid and driven by fear, like he apparently is.

Edit: but again, I need to stress that I am in no way an expert in judging the behavior of others.

[sabrina 1]

97. He wanted to join the military, but was rejected.

He planned the assassination of a Democratic member of Congress.

He was obsessive over the meaning and proper use of words. That in itself was a disorder of some kind.

He was registered as an Independent but we don't know who he voted for. Considering he was planning on killing the Democrat long before the 2010 election, unless he wanted her to remain in office, it would not be logical to vote for her. But then nothing he did was logical.

He was, according to friends, an excellent shot.

He doesn't seem to fit into any one particular political party, but definitely had interests that were rightwing, kill democrats/military/guns so he can't be categorized as a Liberal. We don't know his opinions on abortion eg, or gay rights or the poor or immigration.

He was clearly very mentally ill so I agree that it is nearly impossible to say what his political affiliations were if any.

[Imajika]

107. He might have been anti-immigration...

...over the grammar and/or literacy thing. It's a stretch to say that because we really don't know, but if I had to guess I'd say he might have been anti-immigrant in some way. I could be totally wrong though.

Laughner made some comment about abortion that might be able to be construed as anti-abortion, but then he also suggested we should strap dynamite to babies so they could be suicide bombers or something off the wall like that. He also video'd himself burning an American flag and railed against the military having bibles around too.

We really can't say he wanted to kill Democrats. He did want to kill Giffords who is a Democrat, but there is no particular indication that the reason he wanted her dead was because she is a Democrat. If her party affiliation affected his decision to kill her it would go some way to suggesting he was right wing, but his twisted reasoning for this assassination could very well have just been a personal grudge that not even he can fully understand.

Like you said, he is clearly mentally ill and I suspect an untreated paranoid schizophrenic.

[sabrina 1]

110. regarding the flag burning video, that was not him in the video.

He apparently liked it enough to save it to his utube account though.

How he voted, if he did, might give some clues to his preferences I suppose. But from experience with people with the kind of mental issues he appears to have, it really is hard to pin them down on some things. They are in their own world, sadly.

I agree with you that he does show signs of paranoid schizophrenia, though. And people with those problems do absorb a lot from their environment. He lived in a violent society and some of his decisions, such as wanting to join the military (a friend said he was very upset when he was rejected and gave up drugs and began working out after that rejection), liking guns and wanting to 'create chaos' seem to be a reflection of the society he lives in. Also using violence to resolve problems.

I have read studies of people suffering from schizophrenia in different parts of the world and in third world countries they often don't have access to medication or any kind of treatment. One report I read said that the villagers would simply deal with such people by confining them away from others when they were 'in a phase' and that at around the age of 40 they seemed to 'age out' of the sympthoms.

His parents may have been scared of him. I have known parents who have been frightened of their schizophrenic children and have read of some who have been attacked pysically by them.

We know nothing about his home life so it's all just speculation at this point. I wish he had received treatment though. There are so many others like him, and they are literally ticking time bombs if they do not get help.

[Imajika]

114. Great post and thanks for your comments...

I did not know that it wasn't Laughner in the flag burning video, but like you said, he liked it enough to safe it to his youtube. Not sure that tells us much either way.

I've said from the beginning that I doubted the political climate had much more to do with this than violent video games, violent music or anything else. At the end of the day, it looks to me like Laughner was suffering from a devastating, untreated metal illness (most likely paranoid schizophrenia) and is really just off in his own world.

It's terribly sad really. The victims rightfully deserve justice, but all this mayhem may have been avoided if this guy had gotten just gotten the medical help it was so clear he needed.

Personally I am hoping that in the wake of this that we make a real push to get help to those with serious mental health issues.

[JoeyT]

119. Flag burning doesn't make someone a liberal, it doesn't even suggest liberal.

Some of the separatist and more extreme states' rights groups burn flags. The last time I heard of anyone burning a flag, it was an ultra-right wing separatist militia group. They're also the same folks that rant about the gold standard on a regular basis.

A person doesn't have to be directly exposed to a source to be influenced by it. It's entirely possible he had a friend that was a militia member. Even if he wasn't political, one militia-type friend, even on the internet, would expose him to non-stop propaganda that's specifically designed to prey on paranoia. I have family that are militia people, and I could easily imagine them saying the stuff he said. Hell he's more coherent than some of them.

I certainly can't argue with the conclusion to this you're hoping for, though. Even if it turns out he wasn't mentally ill, which is awfully unlikely, it's long past time we started putting programs in place to help MI people.

[Turborama]

116. One thing I have noticed

The description in the 'flag burning' (it didn't actually get burnt) video he favorited is the same kind of writing in his videos. I think he opened 2 YouTube accounts and the character in the flag video is him.

His YouTube account: http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

The video he favorited: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L1lsLU-kUw

Or, this could all be a black propaganda thing, but I'm not a tin foiler so won't be going there.

[sabrina 1]

121. I think you're probably right. I had not really watched that

video all the through. Very creepy, plus the words of the song. He knew there was something wrong with him it seems. He could definitely have started two or more accounts, I hadn't thought of that.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

32. Even a reporter on Greta Van whatsername last night (ugh, yes I watched 5 mins)

... said that Loughner's writings parroted many MILITIA groups.

Let's see, he didn't SAY RW Militia groups... but hmmmm.... does it have to be spoken?

Greta was asking all the questions to get Dupnik tarred and feathered for not 'doing something sooner' about Loughner.

Amazingly her reporters she was asking wasn't given her much room to allude to that. I was surprised.

[GSLevel9]

42. Because some were hoping for a McVeigh? nt

[underseasurveyor]

45. True diagnosis of any sort of mental illness takes longer than mere days.

And I don't care how many "scores of eminent psychiatrists" have weighed in.
It's irresponsible to toss about such speculative conclusions.

[HuckleB]

47. Well, speculation, if labeled as mere possibility, is fine.

The need to display one's speculation as definitive is quite bizarre and out of bounds, however.

[underseasurveyor]

54. Oh most definitely agreed

The need to display one's speculation as definitive could be considered in and of itself, a type of mental illness

[Little Star]

73. +1

[jtown1123]

84. I agree. Let;s have someone who has actually observed him and speak with him diagnose him

[underseasurveyor]

88. Even then it could take months or years.

But yes I agree :hi:

[Cetacea]

93. I've only seen one psychiatrist weigh in via MSM

A forensic psychiatrist at that. And he talked about the common and incorrect perception that persons with mental illness are somehow more violent than everyone else. I don't watch Fox, so I do not know if they have had ""scores of eminent psychiatrists" who said otherwise. It would certainly be of benefit to wingers to peg this guy as "crazy", given the common and wrongly held beliefs of the general population. However, any psychiatrists, ,however eminent or obscure, who incorrectly imply that the mentally ill are more violent than the non-mentally ill should have their licenses revoked. At the very least it would be highly unethical of them to tell such lies for the sake of their 15 minutes of fame.

[underseasurveyor]

100. Absolutely and well said.

:thumbsup: :-)

[TBF]

51. What is your fascination with this topic?

Even if you are a mental health professional, you certainly haven't examined Mr. Loughner. The "experts" are guessing, and it's really in the right wing interest for that to be case. So why do you keep pushing this?

[JuniperLea]

53. I'd be interested in seeing statistics...

On what percentage of the population is mentally ill to this degree.

Loughner is textbook, no question. There's far too many reputable psychiatrists weighing in as you said, and if you read the symptoms at reputable psychiatric websites, it's very clear.

Have you seen percentage numbers in your reading travel? I've been looking (very limited time to do that these days) but I can't find a recent study.

These people are ill, and anger is apparently part of the syndrome they suffer. Ideology has nothing to do with it.

[postatomic]

58. Statistics?

Why don't you ask the "many reputable psychiatrists"? :eyes:

I could have saved thousands of dollars by just hanging out here and letting the new group of "psychiatrists" make a diagnosis and suggest a course of treatment.

Statistics don't mean shit.

[postatomic]

55. Who are you trying to convince?

Yourself?

And "scores of eminent psychiatrists"??? Any psychiatrist that would make any kind of diagnosis from the tiny bits of information out there is a hack. It can be difficult for a diagnosis to be made even with regular face-to-face sessions.

All I know is that I sure the fuck don't want these "scores of eminent psychiatrists" anywhere near me. Nor do I want you as an advocate.

[underseasurveyor]

62. +1

[Puzzledtraveller]

56. the shrine

says it all for me, either he is monumentally mentally ill (lot of M's and L's there ;), or he is insanely clever, Oops, did it again. Either way he must be bonkers because I think his craziness is contagious, gonna stop thinking about it.

[The Magistrate]

61. And It Amuses Me, Ma'am, People Still Insist Mental Illness Rules Out Political Intent

[cali]

66. intent in the context of psychosis, sir,

is not the same animal as it is within a mind that is not gripped by it.

I worked for nearly 10 years with people with severe and persistent mental illness, many of them in the throes of psychosis. I'm sure your experience is commensurate.

[The Magistrate]

74. Again, Ma'am: Mental Illness And Political Intent Can And Do Co-Exist

Pretending the existence of mental illness rules out political intent in the disturbed person's actions, or establishes that that person is not influenced in their actions by the political climate around them, is foolish.

[JuniperLea]

76. I think they grasp onto the vitriol as a means to further their own anger...

And latch onto that negative energy. I don't believe ideology has much if anything at all to do with the psychosis. It's just a happenstance. Did you hear the rambling nonsensical question he posed to Giffords? And his comments about how ridiculous her response was? I doubt he grasps real policy issues at all. He just wanted to be a part of a greater hate than his own.

I've dealt with a schizophrenic family member for over 40 years now. I don't think you can put any real logic to their actions and explain it in normal terms.

[The Magistrate]

80. That Is My View As Well, Ma'am, But It Still Matters From Which Direction The External Feed Comes

Some of the content of this persons ramblings, particularly the 'second constitution' and 'gold and silver' stuff, are far right staples, and indicate exposure to that breed of infection played a role.

The hate culture of the right, so predominant in Arizona in recent years, cannot be allowed to escape the hook here on a plea of insanity in the individual actor; indeed, they are more guilty precisely because of the individual actor's insanity, in the same way anyone who takes advantage of and perverts a person of diminished capacity does something especially heinous.

[JuniperLea]

91. I do find it irresponsible...

To continually spew lies and hate to the entire society. Some are not well enough to listen without acting out themselves. This is why we have ratings on movies and music... something I was keenly against when Ms. Gore was fighting that fight. I have since changed my mind... raising kids will do that to you. Sitting in an emergency room because a child jumped from a dresser with a towel tied around his neck to fly like Superman, and now has a gaping gash in his forehead, changes one's perspective a tad.

These poor mentally ill people are a lot like children in many ways, and their parents live in a very special hell of their own trying to cope.

[HuckleB]

117. +1,000,000,000,000!!!

[Xenotime]

63. Most all tea baggers are too.

[WilliamPitt]

64. Crazy people hear dog whistles, too.

And act on them.

[bdamomma]

68. I heard on the news he is just sitting in jail with a smirk on his face.

schizophrenia very well be.

[arbusto_baboso]

70. Okay. But does that necessarily mean he WASN'T politically motivated?

Mentall illness and political motivations CAN coexist. If you've ever had mentally ill people in your life, you know that to be true.

[NNN0LHI]

71. Do you recall anyone suggesting that the 9/11 hijackers might have been mentally ill?

I don't remember one TV pundit claiming to be a terrorism "expert" after that event ever suggesting that might be the case.

Does anyone else?

I am not asking if they were or were not mentally ill. I am asking if anyone remembers anyone in the media or politics suggesting that they might be?

Don

[Little Star]

75. That's a good question. n/t

[gkhouston]

96. Non-white people don't get to be mentally ill. Their only option is "evil".

Especially when someone in power wants to use their acts as a "reason" to do something else inexcusable.

[underseasurveyor]

102. Nope. Don't remember ever hearing anyone suggest that.

Nice catch.

[underseasurveyor]

78. Cali you seem to fancy yourself as an expert on... well, everything.

Delusional and grandiose, know-it-all thinking. You have ALL the answers to everything it seems.
Classic signs of BPD and narcissism. Anyone that has spent any length of time here has noticed this time and time again.

Now that I have my point out of the way, that point being that it is careless for any non-professional to toss mental illness judgments about and how it is even more dangerous for any health professional to watch tidbits on TV and then sit on a news panel and discuss whether or not Lougner is mentally ill or not. The main reason that people like you obviously believe this crap is because your TV told you so and it sounds totally plausible to you. Then you come here to spew this "It blows my mind that people are still insisting that Lougner isn't acutely mentally ill" crap. You can't know for sure one way or the other.

THAT is an insult to everyone that has spent years and years dealing with mental health issues and then PERHAPS after years and years of agony MAYBE getting a definitive diagnosis and proper treatment. Don't dare chastise anyone here about insulting mentally ill people when you stand on your high soap-box expounding to be the great advocate and at the same time be the shining worst case in point doing it.

:grr:

[lonestarnot]

111. LOL

well said. :D

[ret5hd]

118. Bravo!

[Mike 03]

81. He and you convinced me he is severely mentally ill. NT.

[Mike 03]

82. And I am not talking about 'anti-social' disorder or whether or not he has a conscience.

Watch and read his words. He is psychotic. And, no, I won't leave it to experts to figure this out. I can figure out.

[spanone]

83. until he is evaluated by professionals, no one knows his state of mind

[slackmaster]

95. I agree completely spanone, but people do have the right to formulate and express opinions

About his mental health and his motivations.

[Bjorn Against]

98. I think some people were too quick to jump to conclusions early on...

I think that early on people should have been careful in determining his mental health before we had facts to back up a diagnosis, as more and more facts come out however I think it has become increasingly clear that he did have some very serious mental health issues.

I think at this point it is safe to say that he has a severe mental illness, what is not safe however is speculating what that means as far as his motives go. Some people want to say that it was his mental illness that motivated him rather than politics, but the two are not mutually exclusive. People with mental illness can hear something on the television whether it is fact or fiction and become obsessed with it, while only a tiny percentage of mentally ill individuals are violent for the ones who are violent political rhetoric and schizophrenia can be a deadly combination.

[affrayer]

99. He Isn't

He's republicanly sane...same difference.

[The Magistrate]

103. This Link, Ma'am, Is Worth Adding To This Discussion

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

[Pathwalker]

104. How is Youtube videos and hearsay words by people who

might have their own agenda evidence of anything that would be admitted in a federal court of law? And, since you've insisted that others prove they are qualified to state things, can you provide us with a copy of your license to practice psychiatry or psychology? During the primaries you said you were a pastry chef. If his rants on youtube cannot be considered as "evidence" that he has any political beliefs whatsoever: despite calling a woman who had an abortion a terrorist, his rants on returning to a gold currency and other statements that are known to be right-wing ideology, then they cannot be considered "evidence" of mental illness, either. I didn't think it was ethical for Dr. Frist to diagnose Terri Schaivo without examining her, and I don't think it's ethical for internet posters without a psychiatry degree or license to do it either. And I say this as someone who had two mentally ill brothers, now deceased.

[Catherina]

105. Rec'd. Rec'd. Rec'd. n/t

[Puregonzo1188]

112. Which is unfortunate because now might be a good time to take a look at the state of mental health

care in our country. I know that isn't quite as glamorous as Sarah Palin, but it might actually be more useful in the long run.

[rucky]

115. The Lounge is 86% mentally ill.