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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:22 PM
Original message
Obama shows a breezy willingness to give away the Democratic Party’s tattered remnants of liberalism


The Strange Politics of the U.S. 2012 Election
What Both Parties Are up to
by Jack A. Smith
September 10th, 2011


Obama, however, is a tough, exceptionally ambitious politician who knows what he wants and goes after it with cool precision. How else could have migrated to the U.S. Senate and the presidency of the United States in five years after an unremarkable dozen years in academia and the obscurity of the Illinois state senate? With virtually no record of accomplishments, he whipped the formidable Hillary Clinton electoral machine, then the McCain/Palin opposition, and then his own party’s left wing in the process.

It should be noted that the Obama White House routinely shifts to the right on issues that do not necessarily depend on House votes, undercutting the argument that the Republicans always tie the president’s hands. The administration’s dreadful environmental record, for instance, is largely independent of the antediluvian climate change deniers in Congress. The White House decision to abandon the Environmental Protection Agency’s tough new air pollution regulations Sept. 2 was a concession to big business, which could have lost some excess profits due to reduced emissions of smog-causing chemicals, not the result of a filibuster or lack of votes.

The Obama Administration evidences a breezy willingness to give away the Democratic Party’s tattered remnants of liberalism, to weaken some past attainments achieved after years of struggle, and forego fighting for new social programs. The result has been two or three steps to the right, by commission or omission, for every nebulous step to the “left,” such as the administration’s health care plan, which was based on the moderate Republican effort in Massachusetts.

Domestically, the White House seeks to strengthen the capitalist sector, reorganize the economy to confer even greater powers upon the corporations, banks, Wall St. and the wealthy; renegotiate downward the social contract with the working class and middle class by further limiting popular spending, entitlements, and government programs to help the people; and reduce union power even further while mumbling pro-labor sentiments. In addition, there has been an effort to reassert the unifying spirit of national chauvinism, militarism, and warrior worship.

Read the full article at:

http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/09/the-strange-politics-of-the-u-s-2012-election/

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. To Third Way Democrats like Obama principles are archaic novelties useful only as empty slogans. K&R
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vets74 Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
64. To Martin Luther King Way democrats such as Obama, it's about the long term.
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 04:20 PM by vets74
It's a black thing. Never give up. Never forget the long game:

I owe everything in my life to the struggles led by Dr King and all those incredibly courageous people, young and old, who sacrificed so much to bring about monumental, though imperfect, changes in America and throughout the world. The poet, Haki Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) always talked about the difference between long distance runners and short distance runners as a metaphor for those who were ready to give up the struggle because they wanted instant success and those who were prepared to engage in a long struggle. Dr King was a long distance runner. He always knew that change was not going to be a quick sprint. For thirteen years, he carried on the struggle, winning some victories while loosing some, but never giving up. Today, we need the same long distance runners to continue his struggles.

In my humble opinion, I think President Obama is a long distance runner. What he needs are supporters who also believe that progress is never instant. Change requires persistence, patience, and dedication, especially in the face of hostile opponents.

As we honor Dr. King, Lets also honor the wisdom of this young man who was tapped by his community to lead a protracted struggle at the tender age of 26, but who, despite his age, lead one of the most impressive grass roots movement for justice, equality and humanity in America. Sometimes we forget how young Dr. King was-- just barely 39 years old-- when he was assassinated. I was 17 years old when Dr. King gave his famous "I have a Dream speech." And I was 22 years old when he was assassinated. Yet even at such a young age, I learned from Dr. King that the struggle for justice and equality would not be easy. He always insisted on letting people know that the struggle for justice, equality and human dignity required discipline, sacrifice, maturity and a willingness to believe in the goodness of all human beings.

I know that a great many of so called progressives have been attacking the President for trying his best to talk to Republicans who hate him so much. But I feel he is following the foot steps of Dr. King, who urged us to do our best to lovingly talk to everyone, including our enemies.

-- from nathkatun7 blogger


Obama also knows that the Republican Party of today is build on three main False Front voter-scams.

-- Anti-abortion rhetoric for the "Pro-Life" folks

-- The peculiarly American blend of paranoia and racism that ran out as the John Birch Society and the White Citizens Councils in the 1950s and 1960s -- now rebranded as this so-called "Tea Party"

-- Ron Paul's "Libertarian" wack-job collection of Far Left talking points -- anti-war, anti-imperialism, anti-Federal Reserve, anti-Wall Street, anti-Patriot Act -- combined with nationalism and the anti-abortion position and anti-Liberalism

Between the three, that's easily 80% of the Republican turnout on Election Day. And they are False Fronts as surely as news of Sarah Palin cudashagging a future NBA guy deserves a laugh.
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. If we lose hope, then it will be much easier to lose the election.........n/t
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. "warrior worship"
Yeah, hyperbole is so credible.

:eyes:
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Don't forget about "our wounded warriors" and how they are fighting for our freedoms!

Isn't that how the politicians are now describing the soldiers, including President Obama?
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
59. It's a warning sign, when someone spews the rhetoric of nationalism...
And Obama spews it as well as any right wing conservative, and as well as any predator who wants or has political power.

It's all about the self centered personal gain for himself, and those who financed empowered his campaign.

And it was obvious to me, early in the Presidential primaries, that Obama was not on the side of Democratic voters, progressives or liberals.

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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Started in the primaries with the "he's not wearing the flag pin,"
and viola, on comes the pin.
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Claudia Jones Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. you don't agree?
Are you saying that there is not a "spirit of national chauvinism, militarism, and warrior worship" in the country?
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. "hero worship"
You gotta earn it. IMHO.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. '...and then his own party’s left wing in the process'
Heck of a deal. A Prez who defeats his own party

K&R
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. And then runs like he's ashamed to be a Democrat "There are some in my own party blah blah blah"
Yeah, there are some in your own party who don't think Medicare should be cut, but think it needs to be expanded instead. They know private insurance racketeers aren't the answer to any question except this one: "What single factor makes US healthcare so outstandingly unaffordable, so relatively ineffective compared to that enjoyed by other nations, and largely inaccessible for tens of millions?" We call such people who want to preserve and expand the role of Medicare DEMOCRATS, Mr. President - what are YOU?

If only a reporter would ask him sometime, Why are YOU a Democrat, Mr. President? Why was it better to be one through history, and why should people join this party right now?

The deer in the headlights look would be priceless.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. +1
Great post. :thumbsup:

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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. exactly. he should run as a repub.
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Claudia Jones Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. that would not work
It is much more effective to advance the conservative agenda under the cover of the Democratic party.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
40. Well said, kenny blankenship. +1 n/t
-Laelth
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
54. You nailed it, Kenny Blankenship. nt
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lark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
61. He would not be able to respond
after all, his hero, Ronnie Raygun, was a Repug and all his policies are Repug, so he could only properly defend that party.
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
62. "The deer in the headlights look would be priceless." - as was that insight
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. We need two strong anti-war candidates -- two candidates who support MEDICARE4ALL !!
Ending the wars and passing universal health care would be two huge

steps in the right direction for the nation --

a push-back against MIC and corporate/fascism --

and a chance to move on Global Warming -- if even only to begin to discuss

shutting down the nuclear reactors -- about two in every state.

Could make the difference between "a whimper or a bang" -- !!

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Claudia Jones Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. that was always the goal
That was the goal long before the speech at the convention in '04, as Obama had been selected and groomed by the DLC for the role he is now playing. Bruce Dixon and Glen Ford were covering this as it unfolded, long before most people in the country had heard of Obama. There is a faction in the party that sees the left as the obstacle to winning. Some are "pragmatists" some are conservatives in Dem clothing. The thinking there is that the left animates and strengthens the extreme right, and that the adherence to principle interferes with actual progress.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Unrec...nt
Sid
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. SidDithers...you keep forgetting the decimal point...
:evilgrin:
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
36. That just shows the Dem Party as a whole is not paying attention or has lost its way.
Doesn't negate the truth of the OP one bit.

Apparently you are proud of that.

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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. Perhaps DU isn't the "real" world.
But most of us here share "real" Democratic values, and that explains why Obama polls so poorly here.

"Given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the people will choose the real Republican every time." -Harry S. Truman

If Obama loses in 2012, that Truman quote will explain it perfectly.


-Laelth
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. What's his approval among Canadians who can not vote in US
elections but like to meddle on an international basis? Will the name changes now make them the Royal Canadian Democrats?
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Rec n/t
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:50 PM
Original message
To The Point

"Obama, however, is a tough, exceptionally ambitious politician who knows what he wants and goes after it with cool precision. How else could have migrated to the U.S. Senate and the presidency of the United States in five years after an unremarkable dozen years in academia and the obscurity of the Illinois state senate? With virtually no record of accomplishments, he whipped the formidable Hillary Clinton electoral machine, then the McCain/Palin opposition, and then his own party’s left wing in the process.

<snip>

"The president does indeed fight for his convictions, much to the dismay of the liberals and progressives — a prominent sector of his own party constituency whom he mocked as the “professional left,” then rendered powerless by furling his brows. The problem isn’t the president’s “weakness” but his now only partially disguised moderate conservative convictions that allow him to pull his party to the right in the name of bipartisanship, even if it takes humiliating his most fervent supporters."

<snip>

"It wasn’t Obama’s fear and trembling but self-confident chutzpah during the deficit debates when he gratuitously consigned the greatest achievements of the New Deal and Great Society to the future chopping block, and in House Speaker John Boehner’s opinion gave the Republican leadership 98% of what it actually sought."



Thats the problem I have with Centrists.
They agree with Republicans on Policy.

An unhappy K&R
from the old FDR/LBJ Democrat


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------








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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. Except when in campaign mode. I couldn't believe him talking like he really cares
about workers now. Puhlease.

I fell for that last time around, but I won't fall for it again. I know he will just shift gears again if reelected.

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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Depressing but truthful article
Imperial America doesn't want the Left in anything it does...except to pay for the bill.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. rec.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Unrec
per usual...


Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.....

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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sad K&R.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. +1...nt
Sid
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. hey Sid, you got a candy heart i can borrow?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Why yes, yes I do...


:hi:

Sid
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. thank you sir!
(unrec)
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Sid, Sid, Sid
:rofl:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Ignore, Ignore, Ignore --
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Omg yes yes yes!!
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. Agree, agree, agree. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. What
<...>

There was also no compelling necessity for Obama to decide “you have to put everything on the table” for the budget cutters including Social Security as well as Medicare and Medicaid. That was the administration’s political preference, regardless of bitter howling from the 83-member Congressional Progressive Caucus, co-chaired by Reps. Raúl Grijalva (D-AZ) and Keith Ellison (D-MN). The House Democratic Blue Dog coalition of fiscal conservatives has only 26 members but patently enjoys considerably more influence in the White House than the marginalized progressives. The GOP controls the House, but the hyperactive Tea Party Caucus, chaired by Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN), has 23 fewer members than the Progressive Caucus, and it has been far more effective because it has leadership support.

<...>

...utter nonsense. The blue dogs voted against the President's health care bill. Heath Shuler does not have more influence with the President. There is a difference between dealing with the reality of Congress' and spewing utterly ridiculous drivel.

Fairly certain the Progressive Caucus don't see themselves as "marginalized." Victimhood isn't attractive.

Congressional Black Caucus statement on the President's jobs proposal

Jobs Plan Unveiled By House Progressive Caucus

Congressional Progressive Caucus statement on the President's jobs proposal

Whether it's saving the auto industry, labor policies, environmental policies, helping low income communities and families and homeless Americans, establishing the CFPB, and other reforms, the things this President has done, will have a lasting impact on real families.

Even a staunch critic of a misstep by this President can acknowledge that he has move the progressive ball forward in significant ways.

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. "spewing utterly ridiculous drivel"
That's lovely. You just won me over.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Good.
"That's lovely. You just won me over."

I wasn't trying.


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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Yes, must throw away votes from those inconvenient liberals who won't follow orders.
So how's Obama gonna get re-elected without the left wing of his party when the march to the center has actually _reduced_ his approval rating among independents?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. You never try.
So why bother?

"Drivel, drivel, drivel" and bold blue links. Waste of time.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. you do more harm to Obama than you realize
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Claudia Jones Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
71. yes
What we are seeing is the aggressive promotion of very conservative ideas masquerading as "supporting the president" and relentless attacks on any and all voices from the left masquerading as calls for party loyalty supposedly in order to beat the Republicans.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
26. Obama/Third Way is suicidal for all of us -- we're too far down this destructive pathway ... !!
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
67. The "Third Way" are the Democratic Party's teabaggers
Edited on Fri Sep-16-11 12:08 AM by blackspade
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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. Kick and Rec!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. Obama and the Corporate Dems do not want us spoiling their corporate agenda
fuck everyone of them.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. +1
:kick: and rec!!
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t
-Laelth
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
42. An angry jealous girl friend with ADD and a crack addition sounds less needy
then the author of this nonsense.

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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. How many such girl friends have you had, Joe? Do tell! NT
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Depending on how I count ... 3.
Edited on Wed Sep-14-11 05:40 PM by JoePhilly
But that was a very long time ago.

Now, very happily married for over 20 years to a woman who lives in the world of reality.

BTW ... how's Gary doing ... he seems so dreamy!!!

Hope you guys really hit it off.

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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
68. So, there could be more than three?
Edited on Fri Sep-16-11 12:14 PM by Hart2008
:wow:

Senator Hart has been busy blogging, and we can expect to hear more of what he has planned for our party soon:

http://www.mattersofprinciple.com/
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tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
46. I'm fortifying my friend/ignore lists
Would like to make a network of smart Democrats, who are of like mind and understand the changes facing the country. Am actively figuring out who the dopes are and putting them on ignore.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. It will make your life more pleasant, truly
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Absolutely!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
53. Can't get Safari to connect to the link. But what I read so far sounds dead right.
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blkmusclmachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
55. Obama is a Reagan Republican:
How we got stuck with Obama as the DEM nominee in '08 says A LOT about how corrupt the DEM Party apparatus has become. The tent is TOO DAMN BIG!!!!!!!!!
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vets74 Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Shill ???
What else ? The 2008 primaries had Edwards and Clinton up against Obama. Any democrat with a memory 3 years long knows we were lucky to come out where we did. All in all, Obama got a solid health care bill and about 50 other strong legislative actions. Republican "debt crisis" bullshit led directly to the worsening employment situation. But them's just the facts.
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webDude Donating Member (830 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
56. Keep false hope alive! Keep false hope alive!
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sfpcjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
57. We forget that there is so much money in the game now...
Edited on Wed Sep-14-11 11:02 PM by sfpcjock
with the promise of $ Billions in corporate socialist kick backs; that we have a multi-millionaire president who spends his time talking to millionaire senators, Congress people and millionaire journalists in MSM TV news. Remember what happened when the greed game got going with the deregulated banking system and sleeping SEC a few years ago? It became unstoppable.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
58. Ok, "breezy willingness?" and "tattered remnants?"
Seriously? Seriously?

Yes "Seriously?"
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Can one say with a straight face that authentic liberals control the national Democratic Party
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 11:50 AM by Better Believe It
I think not.

Seriously.
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mfcorey1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
63. I guess we Better Believe this crap
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
66. Excellent article.
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