On Christian End of Days Eschatology and why Sarah matters

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok, I have seen here many posts about they don't know what they are doing... and all that. Well, it matters and they know exactly what they are doing. What follows is a very short, high points mostly, on the end of days eschatology... (and incidentally I wish she were a Neocon... this is far worst)

The end of days are happening in our times. The first sign of that was the Balfour declaration, which established the idea of Palestine for the Jews. The Second marker was... the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. These people NEED to encourage all Jews to go back to the Ancient land of Israel, as this is a requirement for the second coming... and why they support Israel. This support is not because we love Jews... but because in the end of days 50K among them will convert while the rest will die, since they will not be perfected... yes a holocaust. It is sick... but that is the truth. These people wish for a SECOND holocaust.

There is more...

These people believe in Godly signs and in people being anointed by the Lord to take on his mission on Earth, and to suffer through the passage of the Christ... and to become Christ like... why the martyrdom of the Sarah matters... she is seen as anointed by the Lord to fight for the True People of Israel, and why the appropriate symbols such as blood libel. Attacks on The Sarah are attacks on the real Christians, and after all his church will be attacked in the end of days by those who do not believe in the Lord and his ways. This is yet another sign of the end of days.

This is why this is not a toning down. This is why this is a huge escalation.

Oh and this is very truly just the tip of the iceberg of the eschatology we are dealing with. This is not anymore about Sarah for President, but Sarah the Persecuted, as Jews were and are... as the true Church will be persecuted. They see her as either Sarah (the mother) or Deborah (the Prophet)...

And I know for secular Americans all of this is truly crazee talk. But there are enough Identity Christians and Dominionists who understand this very well. No, they are not the same thing, but they share major elements of this eschatology, end of days... so pay attention, and chiefly do NOT underestimate or think they do not know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing.

Oh and that speech... put a huge target on the "liberal Media." and on "liberal pundits."

[OneGrassRoot]

1. Explains why Pat Buchanan is such a fan....

Scary stuff, indeed. Thanks, nadin.

K&R

On edit: I actually see this happening, as I'm surrounded (not merely by geography) by many Palin fans, and the vast majority of them are also eagerly awaiting The Rapture.

I can see what you're saying. Absolutely.

[olegramps]

145. They are zealots that will not be deter in mission.

This is an aspect of Bush that was not properly understood. He was an born again end-timer who was driven by his delusion that he was a saviour on a God directed and sanctioned mission. This allows these fanatics to justify that the ends justify the means and allows them to murder thousands of innocent victims to fulfill their God ordained mission in life. Sara Palin belongs to this cult of maniacs and regards anyone who disagrees with her madness as someone to be destroyed to achieve the holy cause. Simply put they want to establish a theocracy with complete control of every aspect of people's lives. They represent the very antithesis of Founding Fathers. They would welcome a nuclear war as ushering in the end-times since they have nothing to fear from death since they will be among the few sainted and chosen to be resurrected. The fact of the matter is that Bush actually acknowledged these concepts. So what if the world is blown to smithereens they will be enjoying eternal ecstasy.

To appreciate the fanaticism of the fanatical religious right you only have to attend one of their services. They are emotionally charged carefully crafted events. Many appear to be delirious as the minister calls on the power of God to crush those who are instruments of the Satan. They are virtual zombies totally caught up in unreasoned emotional frenzy and believe that they are among the chosen ones.

This ia an important aspect of Sara Palin and her cult of admirers that presents the real danger and is not fully appreciated.

[Enthusiast]

166. Oh, I agree.

And I recognized that Bush was in the camp of crazies also.

[Harry Monroe]

173. The Blues Brothers were on a "Mission from God"!

Not Palin or Bush!!

[Goblinmonger]

2. .......

:wow:

:yoiks:

[Mike 03]

3. I take what you write very seriously.

And thank you for your updates. But are you talking about Palin? Because I cannot help but believe she is a joke. As I wrote, maybe I'm wrong, but why do you worry about that idiot?

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. The dog wishles will activate another shooter

or two, or three.

They should be taken very seriously.

[Mike 03]

11. Whoa, you are blowing my mind.

As I said, I take your thoughts very seriously, and I too worry about "copy cats" who might replicate this horrific shooting here in Arizona.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. This is beyond copy cats

listen to hartman on the repeat today... on how they do this.

Beck is particularly good at this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Mike here is a good post on it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=194198&mesg_id=194198

[StarsInHerHair]

155. I heard that right away.....especially "our children will not have peace until"

if she's said more I'd have to go and try to watch it.

[OneGrassRoot]

9. I want to jump in here, Mike 03 :)

To add my two cents to your question. :)

While I believe Palin is circling the drain as far as national politics and having a national platform in general, the percentage of people who are her devout followers are going to kick it up several notches now, identifying her as their martyr, as nadin said.

Many of them truly want the End Times.

While I don't take Palin seriously as a national figure, her followers can indeed be dangerous, even more so now, with the continued dog whistles she and Beck and Limbaugh will be sending out.

[Mike 03]

14. Thank you. I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense.

This is really scary stuff. But after the last ten years, nothing surprises me.

[bengalherder]

153. Mike 03

If you haven't already check out dailykos diaries by 'troutfishing', an anti dominist activist and 'dogemperor' a survivor of a dominionist cult. What they have to say about the philosophy and power of dominionists (along with LOTS of sickening first-source documentation) will give you an insight as to why Sarah the buffoon is a danger.

Peace,:hi:

[justiceischeap]

22. "While I don't take Palin seriously as a national figure..."

It doesn't matter if we take her seriously as a national figure but that her followers do. Whether she furthers her career in politics (other than being a mouthpiece), I believe she has a loyal group of followers that will hang on every word she says. She is at cult-like status. I think some of this is out of her control, she was a Frankenstein created by her makers and she's taken on a life of her own that I don't think anyone really expected.

I think there are questions we should be asking about this woman and the most important is, why does she so resonate with the people who love her? I think answering that question gives us some incite into what the people who would do her bidding will do when pressed.

[OneGrassRoot]

39. I agree...

As I said, I don't take her seriously as a national figure, but fully recognize she has devout followers who do.

I've been asking the same question, and posing the question to others: Why do Limbaugh, Palin, Beck, et al have such a loyal following?

Palin has the "feminine" touch that I think makes them all feel better about following her, and defending her. I can't be more eloquent about it than that for the moment, but hopefully you know what I mean.

She spouts the same "god, guns and gays rhetoric, but coming from a female -- an attractive female, as many see her -- is the golden ticket for them.

She whips people up into the same frenzy Limbaugh does, but she does it with a smile and a wink. I think they're all very confused by many things since a black man became president, and she's suddenly there to guide them. I also think it's a plus that she's NOT a politician any longer, in their eyes. Michelle Bachmann could fill the same role if Palin were to back off, but she's too much of an "insider" for them. Plus, I don't think she poses with guns as much.

[Politicub]

68. Good question - why does she resonate with so many people?

I agree that it's worth examining, because she truly does have people who hang on every word she says. And she upped the ante with the cries of blood libel. She would be your average megalomaniac if she didn't have so many followers.

And look at us; we discuss her nonstop ourselves.

[Shallah Kali]

135. Please read The Authoritarians by Dr. Bob Altemeyer if you haven't already

He has a free copy up in pdf on his website here:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Dr. Altemeyer was consulted by John Dean when he wrote Conservatives without Conscience: http://books.google.com/books?id=XQETzHOtgD8C

also a couple of interviews with him here: http://www.electricpolitics.com/podcast/2007/10/its_a_mad_mad_mad_milgram_worl.html

http://www.shrinkrapradio.com/2007/12/19/127-the-authoritarian-personality/

[Politicub]

158. Excellent links

Thank you

[jwirr]

56. And her followers believe she has a chance at election because

she one of the "chosen ones".

[glinda]

104. They push it for sure. They push for Climate Change, dead animals, fights, etc....

[Marnie]

78. Becasue she is a fanatic. She believes she is chosen by

God to lead the revolution. And she has convinced a lot of these idiots that she is their leader chosen by God.

[Old Time Pagan]

157. She's an opportunistic bottom feeder

and absolutely amoral to boot. She thinks she's playing the marks when in reality she's simply a puppet being played by the real threat to us all; the uber rich and powerful.

This isn't conspiracy corner, simply reality. Our current middle class exists in opposition to all historical experience. It is an anomaly and for many of those who believe in "Calvinistic" type doctrine it is an abomination to GOD. In their world view there are only two legitimate classes of people, those who rule and those who are ruled. The middle class threatens that world view and as much must be eliminated.

Sarah is merely a convenient tool to be used to their advantage. She thinks she's a player, she's fool.

These people have been with us for millenia and unless we as a species evolve past them, and in one big hurry, we are royally screwed. I think it's possible that we are on the verge of a huge evolutionary leap but then I'd rather believe that then give into despair.

As far as Sarah's concerned, don't be fooled, the only thing she believes in is making as much money as possible in as short a time as possible. That's her gospel.

[Enthusiast]

167. Interesting take...nt

[FiveGoodMen]

88. The worry is not about her but about what her followers will do.

There's plenty to worry about there.

[Harry Monroe]

174. We ignore her at our peril

Sure she is marginalized at the present because of her behavior and response to the tragedy in Arizona, but there are plenty of Palin zealots out there who would love nothing better than to help their idol succeed. That in itself is dangerous. I also think that the media is complicit in this and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a "resurgence" and "resurrection" of Sarah Palin coming later this year when this tragedy has faded from the short attention span that is the news cycle. Count on it and never underestimate the stupidity of the American voting public when they are fed the talking points and sound bites by the media in order to shape the candidate that their corporate masters want.

[XemaSab]

4. There are actually two different schools of thought

Pre-millennialist and post-millennialist.

Pre-millennialists believe that the second coming is imminent.

Post-millennialists believe that the second coming will occur when all the world's people are converted. Yeah, you can see where this one is going.

I'm not sure which camp ol' Sarah is in, but they're both dangerous schools of thought. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I just went for the real bare bones of cliffs notes

[XemaSab]

12. Word

The second camp is smaller, but in some ways scarier. :o

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. I know, and the funny thing is that people like Buchanan

who like them are in for a shock. They are NOT part of the saved. I mean he is a dirty Catholic.

So they face the same fate as we dirty Jews... convert or die in this world view.

I almost feel dirty typing that, but it is almost... know thy enemy, know thyself.

[XemaSab]

18. Here's an article about her church and what they teach

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html


Many of the post-millennialists are Calvinists. Grim tradition, that.

[Enthusiast]

168. Plus one. Some of the comments

are downright scary.

[hootinholler]

127. The third camp is far more scary than either of yours...

The Jesus Plus Nothing camp. They minister to the upper crust in nearly every country. They are not above manipulating the two camps you cite to achieve their ends. They admire past totalitarians tactics and do not hesitate to use them today.

-Hoot

[Ian David]

5. America's Roadmap to The Apocalypse

America's Roadmap to The Apocalypse
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2747646

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. You should repost that as an OP

I just went though the real bare bones of the eschatology.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. +1. :) n/t

[Enthusiast]

169. Plus one.

These are some very dangerous extremists.

[fascisthunter]

8. This is the Thing DU, she knows her many of her followers are crazy

remember at one of her rallies, how one of her fans yelled, "Kill Them"? She knows many of them also believe in the end times....

[mod mom]

17. Is she tied into C Street/Family as well or is this a separate crazy?

These people are scary!

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. The Family does have elements of this

but not as much. They believe in that eschatology that some are meant to rule and the rest to follow... but end of days is part of it too.

[cbdo2007]

19. Ok, ok I get what you're saying.

I do believe Palin has extreme delusions of grandeur, but I really don't think SHE thinks she is the one who is Christ like or that she thinks the end of days is upon us.

I'm pretty sure 99% of stuff she says and does is controlled by other people, so it may be someone else playing her as a puppet in all of this but I don't think Palin is smart enough to try to take on this battle by herself. If anything, she's looking worse and worse through the 2.5 years we've known her now, and if this is truly her belief, it has an expiration time line - 2016 when Obama leaves office.

The number of Christians who trust in and believe and follow Sarah Palin is very small. Catholics for one, don't give one rats ass about her. It's just the far right fundamentalist groups, of which they are a small minority of Christians in America. I'm guessing even most of them are backing away from her after this. The only people really fighting FOR Palin are the other people who latch on to whatever is happening for publicity - Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Oh she believes in end of days

it is part of core believes of the Wasilla Church she attends.

[Politicub]

69. She may not believe that about herself, but she may as well

She leverages it just the same. The dog whistle is an apt analogy.

[BobbyBoring]

82. Don't believe that

Palin is another one like Bush who firmly believes she has been called on by god to lead her followers up to the big ol rapture. She thinks Alaska plays a huge role in end times for some reason.

I believe that if your talking to god, you're praying. If gods talking to you, your hallucinating~

[bengalherder]

154. Watch one of the videos

(availible on dailykos, in dogemperor's diaries IIRC) where she gets anointed and blessed to carry on the 'fight'.

No way does she not believe in this or her 'speshul' role in it all.

[Enthusiast]

170. She's a believer, a true believer.

And that makes her double dangerous.

[Fire Walk With Me]

23. Christ appears to have discussed things such as love, forgiveness, compassion...

...perhaps Palin and her end-of-days clan missed those possibly important messages.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. All those things are reserved for the People of Israel in

the eschatology... read those inside the Church... HER church.

And this end of days did not start with her... it is alive and well and has been alive as well since before the US became the US... it is part of the fundamentalist streak in US religion.

But since Israel was funded it's become particularly noxious.

[Fire Walk With Me]

34. Perhaps one day we will reach the point where belonging to a REALLY exclusive club

isn't so very important, in terms of feeling worthy/better than/only us....

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. If tribalism is in the DNA no, not really

and I hope it is not.

[kctim]

25. So how many of "these people" are there?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I'd say a million at most

that are core and active.

Given the sales from LaHaye's series, you can go for about 30 million who are not as active but believe in it.

[kctim]

59. And you believe

that they believe Palin has been annointed? Am I understanding that correctly?

Do you believe Palin believes she has been annointed? Is there proof she is into all of this kind of stuff?

Just asking questions. Not a religious person in the very least, but I find this theory very interesting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Here

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/1/13/14015/8393

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/1/13/41430/3459/Front_Page/Dog_Whistle_for_Prayer_Warriors_Palin_as_Victim_of_Blood_Libel_Part_Two

But yes, they believe it.

[Rage for Order]

94. I don't believe in it but I read LaHaye's book series

Well, okay, my then-girlfriend (now wife) got the books on tape when we went on long, driving vacation. But still, neither of us believe in the end of days as it is described in that series, so you can't say the series sold 30 million books so 30 million people must believe in this type of EOD scenario.

These people are a very, very small minority of any Christian sect...less than .01%. In my lifetime I've only met 2 people - a married couple - who believe in a literal end of days, with the rapture, 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. But I am sure you can surely see

at least 20 million... and for the record the sales were higher than 30 million copies.

Realize we are talking of 308 million people i the country.. so 30 million is HARDLY a majority... or even a strong minority.

I must admit I read the first three chapters in the bookstore, before putting that crap back on the shelf.

[Enthusiast]

171. I think it is much higher than .01%. nt

[Autumn]

26. The next thing they will drag out is Revelations 13:3

I knew I had heard some preacher spout off about the antichrist on TV.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Thanks MilesColtrane.

[Pathwalker]

30. Bill Clinton WAS the anti-Christ, then Al Gore, now President Obama.

Followed by whichever Democrat is elected after that. See how it works?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Yeah but sooner or later, in the eschatology,

they will be right.

[Pathwalker]

40. I grew up with these people, was forced to learn this shit.

I started running away at 14, and made it by age 16. The believers are in thrall to their leaders who use this belief system to keep their followers so frightened that they will not make a move without their leader's consent. SOME of the leaders are true believers, SOME use it to take their follower's money and maintain their power over them. The price I paid for refusing to buy into this shit is "being dead to them". It is a price I am still willing to pay. The believers of this crap believe it with all their hearts and souls, more's the pity.
Thank you for keeping us aware of the danger they represent, Nadin. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Funny thing as a young medic

one of my friends was a Jesuit Seminarian...

Him and I had all kinds of weird talks. This is the time Fundies were entering Mexico, and he is the one who alerted me to them. As a Catholic he saw them for what they are, and said... on the bright side they will put both of us in the same hell.

So that was my intro to this... and my ears really got attuned after a local Pentecostal Church was caught in blood libel and some people did get hurt, for real.

[Pathwalker]

43. Oh, I take them very seriously. They are extremely dangerous.

Heavily armed guano eaters, they believe that heaven is some exclusive gated community just for them and only them. everyone else, you and me included will burn in hell forever. It's like they think they get to take their guns to heaven and they get to spend eternity playing war games. I ran 2000 miles to get away from them - they are that scary dangerous.

[Autumn]

36. That's always the way it works.

Go figure. Most democrats do GOOD things and the right wackos paint them as evil.

[Dappleganger]

70. I remember my father spewing about Jimmy Carter being the anti-christ.

And yes, he changed it to fit each democratic leader.

[Pathwalker]

71. I totally freaked out my fundy cousin by saying George Bush was

the anti-Christ. She went nuts on me and hung up, but called me up the next day after speaking to her preacher. Believe it or not, she said "If that's true, it's only because he loves Jesus Christ so much". She hung again because I started laughing hysterically. I laughed for days about that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yep, after all she opened her eyes

when the ONE was near. And Obama is seen as the antichrist.

Absolutely.

[boppers]

161. Pelosi is the One?

If you're referring to Giffords, Obama wasn't there.

[fascisthunter]

27. People Don't Take the Right Wing serious Enough

Especially their media propagandists.

[Mike 03]

29. So, and this is important, it has nothing to do with Palin, but everything to do

with people who like her?

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Yep. she is the current Billy Graham

[DCKit]

35. If these are the end of days, what do they win for being in charge when Jesus drops in?

Just a bunch of opportunists, using the ignorant to gain power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Eternal salvation

which is not a minor thing in the eschatology.

[montanto]

73. And perhaps a position in the power structure.

This all reminds me of the Jorge Luis Borges book on "Imaginary Animals" in which he also talks about angels as they are conceived by Emanuel Swedenborg. He paraphrases, and I re-paraphrase here: "Those who are wealthy and powerful on earth will be so in heaven as well, because they are accustomed to it."

Yikes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. That is classic dispensantionism and Calvinism

but yes, it is part of it. Though the eternal reward is what they are after.

[martymar64]

95. Max Weber really described that Calvinist/Capitalist mindset well.

It all makes perfect sense once you swallow the concept of predestination.

That's a huge pill to swallow, though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Oh absolutely

I first read him at 17... back at readying him. I could go into all the damn criticism form an econ and social perspective... but on a theological level... he NAILED IT!

[Lint Head]

44. I have studied this for years ever since theology

classes in college. The blind acceptance of this teaching is extremely dangerous. It makes one wonder if there is an element of operations to cause "the signs " to happen. The dead birds would be an easy thing to manipulate.
Global warming is ignored because it is somehow a sign from God. Consuming all animals and plants for food and housing is a command from God.

Jim Jones proved people can be controlled. There are elements of this belief in all of society including the military.
The non believers can be easily convinced they are fighting for freedom as opposed to carrying out end times prophecy. Just Google proselytizing in the military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. What is going on in the military currently

is also quite dangerous and part of this. We have a very dangerous MINORITY that is taking over institutions, indeed.

[SaveAmerica]

142. I've always felt this is true, it's the MIHOP of end times

When I've made calls to older Democrats here in NC I've heard many of them say we have to keep giving money, aid, etc to Israel because it is written in the bible. What I don't understand is that it's also written in the bible that you shouldn't worry about problems, etc because if it's in the bible it will be done. You know? On the one hand Christians are to turn over worries to God, but the way that anxiety about Israel is being ramped up by the right and received by fundamentalist Christians has always made me feel it's a 'got to make it happen now' kind of thing.

[thereismore]

46. I heard her say "pundants", not pundits. Just saying. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Don't worry her followers got it

[ipfilter]

48. I grew up around this stuff in both Pentecostal and A of G churches.

Thankfully I got away at a young age and didn't go back. I believe most of them will quiet down after 2012. By 2020 we probably wont hear much from them any longer. Most of their interpretations of prophecy could have worked out in the 2000 - 2012 timeframe (in their mind, not mine). Once that period of time passes they will have to regroup and figure something else out.

They support the current state of Israel but only because they believe it furthers their own cause...the end of time. They couldn't care less about Jews and, as stated above, put them in the same category as Catholics. Most of them are Calvinist too even though most probably don't know it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. 2033

mark your calendar.

[ipfilter]

54. I haven't kept up with them in a while. What does 2033 mean to them now?

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. The death and resurrection

no they have not gone there, but Christ died on the year 33... so 2033 makes sense when the rest don't come true. It will be taken as the NEXT date.

[immoderate]

62. there's an end of the world prophesy for every year. Some have two.

There is never a shortage of "signs" of the end of the world. When predictions fail, it merely confirms the viability of new ones.

Every day could be the last day! :toast:

--imm

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Oh absolutely but that will be the next biggie

[BobbyBoring]

Better catch up!

It's right around the corner!! JC comes in May and come October, the rest of us heathens are out of here!


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/01/BA8V1AV589.DTL&feed=rss.news

[Zoeisright]

49. Shouldn't that be "pundints" (sic)?

Another Palinism, straight from her ignorant brain through her ugly, mean, twisted mouth.

[immoderate]

63. That's something that hangs from your neck, I think.

--imm

[malaise]

50. Yep I think you got this right

She is speaking to her loony End of Times crowd.

[cynatnite]

51. Many of them truly believe that Obama is either the antichrist...

or he precedes the antichrist. Obama is a huge sign for people like my RW mother. He's not one of us...he's different and too many people like him. My family calls him "the one". They act like it's a joke, but it's not.

The antichrist is said in the bible to get the loyalty and love of the entire world except for the "true believers". When they say "the one" it's with a wink and a nod.

It's code just like bush and palin both used code to pander to these types.

on edit: This is why there is such an escalation of threats of violence against Obama.

[BobbyBoring]

87. They also believe

That Noah had T Rexs and Brontosauruses on his ark and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Translation: Bat shit crazy~

[coalition_unwilling]

106. And radio-carbon dating is just a trick Satan uses to deceive us. In other words,

they have no use for the scientific method. But they sure do like their refrigerators and automoblies (both products of the practical application of the scientific method).

Grew up around these yahoos and can predict what they will say before they even say it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Sad, I did not grow up around them

but have done enough research that I too can predict it.

We have a local one that used to bible thump until I out bible thumped him...

I did worst... one day, LOUDLY, I started readying from the Song of Songs... soft porn... biblical soft porn... he gave me the evil eye. So I pointed out that it was THE BIBLE... the OLD TESTAMENT... was he a cafeteria believer?

For the record I do love me some Song of Songs... lyrical and all. For some crazee reason he stopped hanging out where we secularists, who knew the bible, hang out.

[coalition_unwilling]

116. Don't want to hijack your thread but I have always found what David

had to say about Jonathan (Saul's son) pretty homo-erotic. At one point, David says that Jonathan is more beautiful to him than any woman :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. What section do you think I chose?

:evilgrin:

[Ezlivin]

52. 144,000 Jews will be converted

According to the typical pre-millennial, pretribulation Rapture eschatology espoused by most mainline fundamentalist churches, the end times will see the conversion of 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel).

¹ After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. ² Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: ³ "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." ⁴ Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
⁵ From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

⁶ from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

⁷ from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

⁸ from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Revelation 7:1

It is very important to note that these Xians are not simply interested in seeing the so-called prophecy fulfilled, but are actively engaged in fulfilling it. The idea is that through their actions they can actually provoke Jesus into action, as he is bound by prophetic statements he made while here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. A few talk of 50K

but yes, that is what this is about... the rest, will not be perfected... and need to die... in the great battle at a certain major (really minor) valley in the holy land...

[Ezlivin]

58. First time I've heard of 50K

I went to and graduated from Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary, majoring in apologetics and philosophy.

The 144,000 figure was pretty solid (in their minds) as it was the only number mentioned in the text.

But I'm curious as to where others get the figure of 50K you mentioned.

As a fun-loving atheist, I'm long past arguing over theological issues, but I do retain a bit of morbid curiosity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. The closest I can find for that morbidity is this

http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/eschatology.php

Oh and remember to take a shower after that.

[coalition_unwilling]

118. Ah, but they don't just 'die'. They die deaths of horrible suffering and

pain.

It's why I accuse Palin and her ilk of practicing a covert anti-semitism while overtly proclaiming support of Israel. Deep down, they view Jews as vermin to be exterminated along with all who are not part of the Elect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Trying to keep this very basic

I could write a few books on this...

[SaveAmerica]

143. Maybe you should, in a way that can be digested easily and spread rapidly

[Odin2005]

61. These people scare the shit out of me.

[Politicub]

66. The church I was taken to through my childhood in the 80's taught this kind of thing

It's been going on for a while, and people believe the end of days stuff with all their heart. It acts as mental cover for them as they destroy the earth without regard for what they're leaving for future generations.

They honestly think that there won't be any future generations. It's a sick, sad and dangerous system of beliefs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. It is earlier than your childhood

it goes back, in this form, to at least before the US became a country. It is part of the periodic revivals we get.

But it has become really toxic in the last few decades.

(I am betting historians will call this the Third Great Revival)

[Politicub]

72. Fox pours gasoline on the fire

Which is really just about leveraging naive followers to improve ratings.

The links in this thread don't surprise me, since I grew up around this crap and most of my family believes this stuff. But it's still scary to realize the number of people who follow these teachings. They are closed to all manner of reason.

And thanks to everyone who is posting info and links. I find it interesting and informative to look into the asylum.

[coalition_unwilling]

120. I actually think this End Times stuff probably originated from the

second Great Awakening (1820s) and not from the first Great Awakening (1740s). But definitely agree that it has become more toxic and pronounced since days of Reagan.

[lunasun]

79. Yeah who was that EPA guy who said global warming

didnt matter becuz the end of days would come soon so he used that for lax laws?? was a few admins ago but typical of their misuse of nature as OK sickos

[FiveGoodMen]

89. Sounds like James Watt (Reagan admin)

[Mariana]

110. James Watt, Secretary of the Interior

for a few years in Reagan's first term. He believed that there was no need for any kind of conservation of anything because, as he said, "I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns."

[RagAss]

74. The Age of the American Cretin..... welcome folks.

[Marnie]

76. Abour that last sentence. I think you are exactly right.

Sarah by claiming she is the victim of religious persecution (Incidentally does this mean she planned the shooting in Arizona? Where her lawyer and daughter just moved?) that may take her life, has just thrown chum in the water for her sharks to go into a frenzy over.

I also think there will be more shootings and and they will be happening soon.

I sincerely hope that HLS understands that the biggest threat to this country is not bin Ladin but a million or so religious fanatics who will gladly slaughter their fellow Americans in the name of their religious beliefs. And I hope to God there are enough police who are not members of this gang of nut bags to be willing and able to stand up to them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Chum in the water, that is indeed one way to put it

Welcome to DU by the way.

:hi:

[Politicub]

81. Or course she didn't plan the shooting in AZ

That's bizarre to think.

I do believe she's riding the wave of emotion, though.

[kestrel91316]

98. I suspect more than a few higher ups in DHS are also Dominionists

(perhaps secretly) and so WISH for increasing terror and turmoil because that = the end of days and biblical fulfilment. So they refuse to take action against domestic terrorism (unless they can link it to those brown people).

[KamaAina]

80. "These people NEED to encourage all Jews to go back to the Ancient land of Israel,"

Which, conveniently enough for some, would mean no Jews anywhere else. Sounds like a pogrom to me. :scared:

[Shallah Kali]

136. What Sarah Palin's "Jewish people will be flocking to Israel" prediction really means

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/144111/what_sarah_palin%27s_

"Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks." - Jeremiah 16:16, KJV



Hagee and other Christian Zionists interpret that Biblical passage from the Book of Jeremiah as a prophecy which applies to current-day Jews worldwide.

Christian Zionists, broadly speaking, are Christians who think God wills it that all Jews live in Israel - and who go to elaborate lengths to bring that about. Regardless of whatever differences there might be between John Hagee's and Sarah Palin's respective brands of Christianity, the two seem to share a narrative common to Christian Zionist theology, that a terrible upwelling of anti-Jewish hatred will in the end-times cause Jewish citizens of every nation on Earth to make aliyah and move to Israel.

"Fishers" are, in that expected scenario, evangelists who try to convert Jews to Christianity and coax them to move to Israel. "Hunters" are overt anti-Semites who will come to hunt and kill those Jews who have not listened to the "fishers" and moved to Israel.

John Hagee's controversial late 2005 "God sent Hitler" sermon, which in May 2008 caused then-presidential candidate John McCain to renounce a long-sought political endorsement from Hagee, was more gratuitously offensive, even, than the general public was aware. During the internationally televised sermon, as Hagee asserted Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were hunters sent by God to chase Europe's Jews towards Palestine, pastor Hagee pantomimed holding a rifle aimed at, presumably, those hunted Jews.


(video fo hagee's sermon) http://vimeo.com/1447986

[ElsewheresDaughter]

83. what you said here is the absolute truth about these Fundie Repubs and what they intend

[ElsewheresDaughter]

84. seldf delete

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. And it is just the cliff's notes

We could write books on this.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

85. Oh Rapture hurry hurry and suck these crazy fuckers off the planet

[FiveGoodMen]

90. If only it was that easy!

[anAustralianobserver]

91. Do they think Huckabee is anointed as well? DeMint?

I guess they'd only accept Romney if his VP was 'anointed'.

I think most of the people who believe this kind of thing go through an intense phase of maybe 5 to 10 years where they immerse themselves in it. They eventually get significantly disillusioned when the prophecies of a few of their favourite prophets or visionaries don't come true/get postponed, or they feel foolish idolising their pastor and letting him manipulate them etc.

George Bush was probably the closest they'll get to an end-times fundamentalist evangelical president and he wasn't able to keep up the act very well when they saw him operating on a daily basis.

If they really see Palin as a chosen one, a good way to keep them on board would be to have her in a VP position so fantasies could be spun about her having the president's ear and being one step away etc - but that didn't work out in 2008 - so maybe she'll symbolically pass her anointing to Huckabee (?) and Bachmann can take over the sexy red-meat throwing thing. Palin can then go to fox news and make appearances on the end-times Christian tele-shaman shows hehe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Romeny follows a false religion, so no

Huckabee... he could... right fundy origins.

[anAustralianobserver]

93. I don't think the Republicans let end-timers (except fake ones) get to top leadership

positions though? Even in the military where there's a lot of fundamentalism - I assume they are excluded from top positions. It's more about business and the status quo - and security or perceived security (to not be too cynical).

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. And... you'd be wrong

Lt. General Boykin now retired, is a big name in the end of timers movement. At one time Secretary Watt (interior) under the Reagan Administration wasn't into all this protection of banbi since the world was coming to an end, soon. I am paraphrasing James Watt, but I am pretty close.

We have more than a few in the Air Force at pretty senior levels, including a former Commandant of the AF Academy at Colorado Springs and the Military Religious Freedom Fondation has been fighting them.

[Mariana]

113. You'd think it would negatively affect security clearances.

Believing that the United States will soon cease to exist (and that it will be a good thing when it does) would seem to be in conflict with the whole idea of national security. Still, as far as I know such believers get clearances just fine.

[Kip Humphrey]

100. Its Sargent Sarah, Eli's Army, the Family - all exist to force Armageddon in their lifetime

and rule the US in its aftermath to prepare the way for the return of Jesus.


:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[oysterpoint]

101. If her followers think...

...that the end of days is at hand, then what, is Palin the Whore of Babylon?

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. No, a prophet, an anointed prophet by god

It is part of the symbols as the lord will provide symbols of the end of times and leaders...

[The Blue Flower]

103. Overt anti-semitism waiting in the wings

It's the "zionist, liberal media" that has criticized her for the "blood libel" thing. Next step is to spin it as "the Jews hate her -- and her followers."

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Catch O'Donnel on the repeat

interview with a "mainstream" Jew, who told us... blood libel was correctly used. (Jews for Sarah)... while being corrected by a Gentile Professor of History... yes my jaw is still on the ground.

That spin has begun. And the kindest thing I have to say about this man is... Kapo.

Yes as a daughter of a holocaust survivor I went YOU FUGGIN MORAN! You are Messhugeneh... and other choice worlds.

I should add this dangerous eschatology is part of extreme Judaism as well.

[Oilwellian]

107. I did a video on Sarah Palin: Stealth Dominionist

If it doesn't give you chills, you weren't paying attention. Watch it again. Bruce Wilson of Talk2Action.org has been studying her religious connections and it's bad news for this country should it ever gain power over us. "Blood Libel" was indeed a codeword for her cult. And there are thousands and thousands of members across the country. Do you suppose they're armed as well?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sixDDLSN46s

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Very well done

and yes, she is.

[The Night Owl]

146. Nice! Please, check out my videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_tNeJxgJM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZD1_fVBuLQ

[Enthusiast]

175. Excellent.

That should put everyone on notice.

[Kurovski]

108. Kick. (nt)

[Timbuk3]

109. K&R

Thanks for the insight. "Blood libel" was no mistake. It was "I'm a christian martyr".

[Lucian]

111. Anyone who believes in the Biblical "end of days" is an idiot.

Seriously. Get rational and think. It's all crap. The world is going to end in 4.5 billion years (give or take a few million years) when our Sun expands into a supergiant. Until then, it'll continue to go around the Sun and it'll continue to rotate on its axis.

You're appealing to the lowest common denominator in your OP. Please don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. So you are willing to discout people who are

really dangerous and do not share your world view.

Not only that, but unlike you, who I am sure will not force kids to learn this evolution \ science \ crap... they will torture you if they have a way. They will force you to convert, to perfect you, or kill you.

Yes, they believe that.

So yes, they are best case... 1 million active and 30 million followers. They are quite fringe. That is one quarter where terrorism may very well come from.

Under estimate at your peril.

Sarah is dangerous. And so are her followers who did understand what she said... which by the way she knows what she said.

Wake up and smell the dominionism... because IT IS A REAL threat.

[Lucian]

119. If they are willing to kill...

then they are already hypocrites. Killing someone because they don't share your beliefs goes against the teachings of Jesus and the ten commandments. They themselves will go to hell.

How can I take anyone seriously if they're all about contradictions?

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. I highly suggest you read on the subject

if anything they are internally consistent in a sick way.

The OP gave you the tiny tiny tip of the mt everest sized iceberg. But yes in their world view, another tiny slice, they do believe that the end will bring a battle between the forces of good and evil (guess which side you are on?). In this battle the forces of good will kill, yes kill, those followers of evil, In preparation for this, we need to take the US back to the laws of the bible (old testament shtick) and educate the children to be illuminated by the power of Jesus.

Americans better pretty quickly realize that this is not a fringe, and mostly innocent movement. They are fringe, but dangerous.

[coalition_unwilling]

122. You might have been tempted then to not take Hitler seriously, as

his core ideology equated Jews (capitalists) with Bolsheviks (communists), as contradictory as that sounds. A lot of people died because no one took Hitler seriously until it was too late.

Just b/c Palin and her followers are idiots doesn't mean they are not very dangerous.

[FiveGoodMen]

152. "How can I take anyone seriously if they're all about contradictions?"

They have guns.

They may have (or get) control of the armed forces.

Crazy, hypocritical people can be very dangerous.

[anAustralianobserver]

126. I know it's a real phenomenon just by watching Benny Hinn and all those shows

which are all on Australian TV as well (though it's a lot smaller a thing here). I guess a majority of the Tea Party are inclined towards those beliefs but a large amount of them don't go for it and are more just tribalist and xenophobic.

But I would argue end-times Christianity is mainly just used to manipulate that fringe group for their votes and contributions, and occasionally to help intimidate Dems/progressives - the worst thing being the summer of 2009.

But I think the Tea Party is fragmenting now and the establishment Republican party has to marginalise it. It's still dangerous but I think and hope it has peaked as the face of the Republican party.

So I'd argue more that the Republican PTB use these groups but always keep them out of the inner circle; and I can't see a scenario where they'd take over the party; though there is a danger of them getting rogue control of WMD, ironically.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. The end of times

is not limited to the US. It is quite international actually.

[cliffordu]

133. She's talking about people who believe that shit.

I think if you read the fucking OP you'd know that....

[SaveAmerica]

144. I'm thankful for the education, I had no idea of the extreme thoughts and beliefs they have

If you sweep them under the rug and pretend they're not doing what they're doing then you're part of the problem (not you, specifically)

[kimi]

123. I happen to be a Christian

for my own reasons. Not ashamed of it, either, it's who I am.

But I have a very deep, hard view of people - like Sarah Palin - who call on God or Christ to "save" this country. It rubs me raw, and I hate it that they put these things out there. It is inappropriate, it is wrong.

Separation of church and state. Honestly, I cannot for the life of me understand why this is an alien concept to people who claim to be patriotic Americans.

Makes me think they are not such patriotic Americans if they can't "get" that fact. It's pretty frickin simple.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. And in the world view of these guys

you are not a christian. Not until you accept their views and all that.

They do not believe in the Establishment clause either... not even when it is shown to them.

I am not a witch in her debate showed us a perfect example of that mind set.

They are really fringe in all kinds of ways. Problem is when secular anything confuse mainstream Christians and these guys.

I had a thread on that a couple weeks ago... and why people should stop attacking main stream Christians because of the idiocy of these very dangerous fringe folks.

Hell, we saw a fringe Jew today on the TV machine defending St. Sarah... and that took my breath away. (Yes I knew they existed but I am still picking my jaw from the ground)

[Joe Fields]

128. Step back from the computer and get hold of yourself, for crying out loud.

Listen to yourself. Just listen.

She is nothing but a media whore, no less. No more.

She is playing to the base instincts of the most derelict of minds, but a conspiracy, the type that you profess?

Get a fucking grip.

Get a fucking clue.

Is she dangerous? In a word, yes.

Is she what you profess her to be?

You really need to re-assess.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. I should sugest you watch The Serpent and the Egg

Oh never mind...

They are boy scouts... and not dangerous...

Paraphrasing a Time Article on the Nazis in 1928...

By the way, the only way for history not to repeat itself, is for people to be AWARE and fight back BEFORE we ask again what came first, the serpent or the egg?

But denial ain't gonna help.

[Joe Fields]

141. You reference a Bergman film and tout it as fact?

As far as Palin goes, what you need to understand is that it is all about her. She is not interested in leading a movement, and she is not the central figure in some kind of grand conspiracy.

She (I should say her handlers and advisors, who, by the way are batshit crazy) knows how to tap into the fears and prejudices of the potentially dangerous neanderthals of this country. They are the only people who take her seriously and she knows it and is running with it.I don't for a second think that she honestly believes she can become the next president, but she will run for the office, because by doing so it will keep her name in the national spotlight. In the end, it's all about the money and notoriety.

To make her out to be some type of stealth Identity Christian is, to me, absurd, and gives that idiot way too much credit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. SHE IS... go research her church in Wasilla

please.

And the question in the Bergman film is apropo... what came first, the serpent or the egg?

Ignore at your peril.

De NIle is not just a river in Egypt.

[Turborama]

131. At 1st glance I thought the title said "scatology". Which this kind of is, actually.

It's a shame posts like yours still need to be written, but they do until what you have written about becomes common knowledge.

I have been researching and posting about all this since 2008 until http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x453718">April last year. Your post and the recent goings on have made me look into it all again. I'm going to compose another post about it soon with links as a waker upper/refresher for everyone.

It seems like something that has been hiding under the "common knowledge radar" since she came into prominence and it's time to pull the curtain on it some more.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Agreed...

I was like... blood libel... really Sarah... then after the anger subsided... it is insulting... I went back into this is what is going on.

I wish it was so damn common knowledge it wasn't the three of us here. I think we are now at a 100.

[cliffordu]

134. If you have to take up arms to defend yourself against other

Americans, those motherfuckers are the ones that you will be defending yourself from.

I have known a couple - they are terrifying, and they are for real.

[quaker bill]

137. If so, then there is no need for her to run in 2012

as I have it on Dominionist authority that Judgement Day is May 21, 2011, well before the primaries begin. Of course, if she and Beck were to somehow disappear on May 21, the rest of us probably won't find all that much "tribulation" in it.

I still haven't heard whether the judgement is before or after lunch, I need to know as I would like to clear the rest of my calendar, just in case.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Some in the movement set dates every so often

and when they don't come to pass... they revise the entrails readying.

By the way there are people now going on that caravan who have sold all. I mean the end of the world is coming. That includes a friend of a DU'er.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

138. I think we may be giving them too much credit.

It's the folks who are, to put it frankly, bat-shit insane (to qualify: clinically disturbed, like the shooter) who take up guns and carry out their marching orders.

Every other right-winger is going to talk a bunch of tough shit but never really follow through with any assassination plans. They'll never shut up, will rarely put up. The likely excuse will be "this is part of God's plan and we shouldn't interfere." I know these people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Look up Stochastic Terrorism

Here to start you on this

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/01/are-sarah-palin-glenn-beck-michael-savage-and-rest-gang-guilty-stochastic-terrorism

[deutsey]

139. I remember when I was a kid hearing about "The Late Great Planet Earth"

by Hal Lindsey (sp?). I also got hold of a copy and read it. I remember it scared me in the same way that old "In Search Of..." TV episodes about UFOs and Bigfoot used to scare me (e.g., it was entertaining).

The book applied the Book of Revelations to what was then the contemporary world (the '70s) and made the case that we're living in the End Times.

The shooting in AZ has reminded me of one of the things I remember from the book: the "Beast" would be a political leader who receives what appears to be a mortal wound to the head but then makes a full recovery, a miracle that ushers in the Antichrist's rise to world power.

Of course, the Beast/Antichrist is referred to as a man, but I've been wondering if any End Timers out there have been running around claiming the shooting is a sign.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. I should go check the usual sites

I suspect some are.

[The Night Owl]

140. The church Sarah Palin attended for decades believes that...

...the return of Jesus is imminent.

From a 2002 archived page of the Wasilla Assembly of God website:

We believe in the imminent return of Jesus for all Christians

http://web.archive.org/web/20020510013756/http://www.wasillaag.org/index.html

The imminent return. Not just the return but the imminent return.

Whether or not Palin believes mankind is living in End Times is an open question but surprisingly (or perhaps not surprisingly) not one which has been asked by the media.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. It shoudl be asked but most of the media stays

away from those questions. We are a very secular country and like to ignore that we are the most religious of OECD economies.

[quarbis]

156. do some research into

Christian Re-constructionism and Dominionism if it doesn't scare you nothing will.
I'm a deist/gnostic and I believe they are "Clear and Present Danger".

[Shallah Kali]

159. Don't forget the New Apostolic Reformation

Resource Directory for the New Apostolic Reformation
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/1/20/131544/037

Talk2Action is a great resource as is Theocracy Watch www.theocracywatch.org

[jmowreader]

160. What the Republican end-timers do not realize...

is Jesus is NOT going to return to Earth just because they created the conditions the Bible specifies for His Coming. In fact, He'd probably be inclined to stay away.

The other problem they've got is, if I was Jesus and I came back to Earth tomorrow, I'd be out there smiting Republicans as fast as possible. Those fuckers are evil in ways you've only read about, and do not deserve to inherit the Kingdom of Israel.

[Shallah Kali]

162. Waiting for Armageddon - doc trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcPX9KbwSY

In Theaters: January 8, 2010 -

Americas 50-million strong Evangelical community is convinced that the worlds future is foretold in Biblical prophecy - from the Rapture to the Battle of Armageddon. This astonishing documentary explores their world - in their homes, at conferences, and on a wide-ranging tour of Israel. By interweaving Christian, Zionist, Jewish and critical perspectives along with telling archival materials, the filmmakers probe the politically powerful - and potentially explosive - alliance between Evangelical Christians and Israelan alliance that may set the stage for what one prominent Evangelical leader calls World War III.

Copyright © 2009 First Run Features

via http://atheistmedia.com

[Obamanaut]

163. Why do people get themselves worked up over mythological stories

such as "end times", "end days", "rapture", "clashes of Titans", etc?

[Joanne98]

164. Dog whistles and code words are all around us!

You're right! The American Taliban has got to go!

[Enthusiast]

165. K&R You are so right.

A friend of mine is also caught up in the Mayan 2012 thing. He believes Christian scripture validates the Mayan thing. I do not try to discourage him as he loves this stuff so much. But the Christian end of days thing is huge now.

[Harry Monroe]

172. If these people want to rapture, I'll lend them the car, length of hose and the enclosed garage

Just leave the rest of us out of their warped fantasies about hastening the "end times".