Yes, I support the protesters at Wall Street, but unless they amp things up it will do no good.

[white_wolf]

I'm just going to come out and say it. If the people at Wall Street really want to threaten the system, they have to be willing to face jail time. They have to truly occupy it so that the bankers can't get in on Monday, or any other day. Until they do that, the bankers will just laugh at the protesters, as they enjoy a nice steak dinner on on the taxpayers money. Perhaps I need to clarify something. To all of the people there, good job, I really do support them and I wish them the best. I'm not trying to mock them or anything, I'm just very cynical about what it will take to change this country, but if I came across as unsupportive or anything I sincerely apologize.

[Arctic Dave]

1. As it is now, it's just another "free speech zone".

They are not doing anything the TPTB aren't allowing.

[villager]

2. Pretty much it. It has to be a "sitting at the lunch counter" moment

...to do any good, with all the difficulties (and potential ramifications) that implies...

[Blue Meany]

3. It is impossible to predict what the catalyst will be that spawns

a mass movement. This could grow and develop into something big or not. But I do think we have the social conditions now that provide the necessary preconditions for a populist backlash against the ruling elite in this country. I hope that something emerges quickly, though, because the alternative is for the all the discontent to be channeled into a neo-fascist movement like the Tea Party.

[white_wolf]

8. The conditions are ripe for a massive change in the current system.

People are out of work, desperate, and the mainstream parties offer nothing. Capitalism is facing it's largest crisis since the Great Depression and this time there may be no FDR type reformer to save the system. That means one of two things could happen if no FDR type figure emerges: 1. The rise of a Fascist movement, as you mentioned. 2. The rise of a revolutionary socialist or communist movement. If things aren't reformed and no strong left movement emerges, then a real fascist movement will arise. When writing about the rise of Nazism in Germany, Trotsky said the following about the rise of Fascism:

"The last election revealed – and this is its principal symptomatic significances – a shift in the opposite direction. Under the impact of the crisis, the petty bourgeoisie swung, not in the direction of the proletarian revolution, but in the direction of the most extreme imperialist reaction, pulling behind it considerable sections of the proletariat. The gigantic growth of National Socialism is an expression of two factors: a deep social crisis, throwing the petty-bourgeois masses off balance, and the lack of a revolutionary party that would today be regarded by the popular masses as the acknowledged revolutionary leader. If the Communist Party is the party of revolutionary hope, then fascism, as a mass movement, is the party of counter-revolutionary despair. When revolutionary hope embraces the whole proletarian mass, it inevitably pulls behind it on the road of revolution considerable and growing sections of the petty bourgeoisie. Precisely in this sphere, the election revealed the opposite picture: counterrevolutionary despair embraced the petty-bourgeois mass with such force that it drew behind it many sections of the proletariat."

[sabrina 1]

28. The media stayed away from Wall St, but covered a Teaparty

debate. The Teaparty is an astro-turf, faux grassroots, corporate creation, but if a dozen of them show up somewhere, the media is right there.

It is up to us to get support for the people who trying to do this. We will not get help from the media.

Complaining that is isn't big enough or whatever, won't do much good. We can call friends, organizations, like Unions eg, Unemployed groups, and ask them if they can organize people to get there.

They are getting support from the rest of the world also:

@LarryHarris3
Lawrence Harris

“@anonops: $2800 of pizza was ordered from all over world. #OccupyWallStreet & #TakeWallStreet Thanks for the Support!”

The world wants us to succeed, many of them have been doing this for more than a year, in Greece, Spain, Britain, but here there was nothing, until now. They do need support though. It won't be easy.

But someone is taking them seriously:

[white_wolf]

36. I agree. As to the media, maybe we should send emails to Countdown or Rachel's show.

I could see them covering it, but as for the the nightly anchors of the broadcast media, I'd say there is 0 chance of them saying a word.

[dkf]

4. After seeing the rioters in Britain needing to forge gang ties to survive in jail why would they do

That?

[treestar]

5. Nice to sit at keyboard and demand that of someone else

[joshcryer]

9. Yeah, I used to be involved in protest direct action.

We'd have sit downs where we talk about how to avoid a felony (a lot easier for white people, btw). These sorts of discussions were going on at the WI protests, lawyer advice, when being arrested don't make quick movements, etc. Follow orders, etc.

It's one thing that made me disillusioned in the whole process. If we're ceding full control then why oh why are we even doing anything?

edit: I know this seems OT to your response, but yes, it's interesting to see someone advocate people put their lives at risk when a bus ticket could send them straight to the front lines...

[white_wolf]

11. I'm not demanding anying. I'm merely saying that if they really want to change the system they have

force it. I'm not demanding anything, I'm merely pointing out the fact that they are not going to change anything this way. All movements for change have faced repression. The early labor union organizers were sent to jail, hell some were executed on made up charges, aiding slaves was made illegal the years before the civil war, I could go on, but I think you get the point. "Power concedes nothing without a demand, it never has, it never will"

[dionysus]

12. you could at least show up and hand out marxist pamphlets.

:shrug:

[treestar]

29. Why not go and do it yourself?

And who says peacefully protesting never changes anything? It has! There is no need to violate the law.

[joshcryer]

6. They have to face a felony, several counts.

Many of them will wind up in jail for spurious reasons (not following police orders usually gets you). Few if any will get a felony nor do they intend to try.

[Exilednight]

7. It's not only that, but you have to look at who is protesting. It's the

Ron Paul libertarians and Lyndon LaRouche supporters that are taking to the streets. I'd find it hard for anyone to take these guys serious.

[Puregonzo1188]

18. I was there on Saturday. There was the Lyndon LaRouche choir, but they at no point

ever joined the demonstration, instead just singing songs outside of Chase Manhattan.

There two groups of Ron Paul supporters both numbering at 2--so a whopping 4 Ron Paulers. Two of them carried a sign and were part of the protest and respectful. The other two spent their time arguing with and heckling other demonstrators, and hogged the open mic to yell crazy things about fluoride and start arguments. Most people decided to ignore them, but one elderly woman started arguing with them over their claims that Fidel Castro had a policy of setting children on fire. They weren't well received or very well liked.

Nice try though, next time though say something about hippies or anarchist or communists and you might be more successful in smearing those of us who got out from behind our keyboard this weekend.

[joshcryer]

24. The ironic part is when anarchists actually do it, guess what happens? It's called PSYOPS.

It's "infiltrators" etc, etc. So basically there's no real way to achieve any sort of change politically (I personally think it'll come technologically).

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Puregonzo1188]

40. There were plenty of anarchist there.

[joshcryer]

52. Yes, I know. And some anarchists use the methods advocated by the OP.

But if they did they'd be shit on as psyops infiltrators.

[white_wolf]

31. I have to ask. Did the Paulites give a reason for being there?

I can't see what they have to protest. Isn't this what they want? Sometimes, I wonder if his supporters really know much about his stances beyond the wars and legalization of drugs.

[Puregonzo1188]

39. The two with sign didn't say much, the two obnoxious guys at open mic

I mentioned earlier did not in fact mentioned Ron Paul, but someone later told me they were Ron Paul supporters. They were just hogging the open mic and talking all kinds of really bizarre conspiracy theories (fluoride invented by Hitler), but they did get into with the other protestors who were mostly left (and I mean left) and they would yell "it's the banks we should be fighting not each other."

They talked a lot about fractional reserves in banks and silver coins. Not gold coins or the gold standard (like they usually do), but silver and silver coins. Apparently silver is the world's best conductor of electricity and thus the only solid basis for a monetary system. They started burning their paper money, but only ended up burning themselves.

They were really, really goofy.

[white_wolf]

41. Damn they sound "interesting." I don't think I want to ask what

Lyndon Rouche's followers did to top that, but they seem to insist on being the craziest people of any gathering so I'm sure they did something.

[Puregonzo1188]

43. They just had their choir singing songs down the street, never came over

and bothered us.

The fluoride/silver conducts electricity/possible Ron Paul were the most batshit crazy people there.

Though it is New York City. Those kinds of rants are standard for just about any subway ride.

[annm4peace]

45. Puregonzo, do you get to go back ?

I hope you and others can go back to occupy but make sure to take a small water bottle for 1/2 malox and 1/2 water, and a bandana soaked in apple cider held in a plastic bag.. just incase they use tear gas and pepper spray.

[Exilednight]

47. There were more than two Ron Paul supporters there. I saw a at least ten or so carrying signs that

read "end the Fed", "Bring back Gold", and other such nonsense. It's not that I am against the protest, I just can't stand most of the people who are protesting. I'm not for ending the Fed, or going back to the gold standard. People are protesting against something, not for something. This is why this protest will never gain traction.

The other part that makes this protest weak is that there are so many different groups, but only about 1,000 people. In a city of 8 million, 1000 is a drop in the bucket. Hundreds of thousands work in the financial district. The WTC alone employed over 50,000 people.

If this protest lasts more than a week, grows more than tenfold in size and draws more moderate people with legitimate gripes, then this will be a success. Anything less and it's a complete failure.

[sudopod]

23. Lot of trash talk for a guy who hasn't updated his "extremist" website in two years. nt

[Exilednight]

46. Not my website. n/t

[sabrina 1]

48. Excuse me?? Were you there?

I love these proclamations from people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Get back to us when you know something about the subject. Or go there yourself so that you can approve of the kine of protesters who are there. Uless of course you have no problem with the Wall St. criminals.

[white_wolf]

50. From what I've heard there was only a handful of Paul's people there.

Granted, I have clue why they would be there. They should love Wall Street.

[dionysus]

10. i'm sure you'll be on the front lines with em, tossing nerds in suits to and fro...

:rofl:

[white_wolf]

13. Nice of you to completely miss the point of this post.

I'm not forcing them to do anything, I'm merely pointing out that we are getting excited over what may be just another feel good moment.

[joshcryer]

16. Getting cynical, eh?

Welcome to the club. Yeah, I've had this realization years ago, and I get flamed for it whenever I point out that nothing is going to significantly change. I remember London strikes being touted as some sort of massive shift, the Greece riots (which have been going on regularly for almost a decade) being a conduit for revolution, etc, etc.

Could be. Won't be.

[white_wolf]

20. I really am cynical at this point.

Honestly, I don't think things will change for the better until they get much worse. People have to be willing to face jail time and possibly worse before things will change, and things aren't that bad right now. I've heard this was partly inspired by the Arab Spring, but people don't seem to realize how bad those countries were or how far the people were willing to go to change the system.

[joshcryer]

25. I do not believe there is potental whatsoever with political change, it cannot happen.

The system is too entrenched and has been since the death of active labor almost a century ago (yes, labor was highly neutered by FDR and those who followed). The best you can do is get yours and do the best you can within the confines of the system (using whatever remnants are left to benefit yourself).

I think ultimately technology, the free software and open source and open hardware movements are going to change things, and it will be apolitical.

[treestar]

32. I wouldn't wish things getting worse on anybody

And this vague protest is not going to do anything because there is nothing to do. What are they asking for?

[white_wolf]

33. I don't wish it either. I'm just scared that things will get worse before they get better.

Maybe, I'm wrong though, I hope I'm wrong.

[dionysus]

22. i'm not excited about it. it's not enough people to accomplish anything. but...

i give kudos to the people there doing it, they're good, dedicated folks.

[Puregonzo1188]

14. So I was there on Saturday. When were you there?

[white_wolf]

17. I don't live in NY or anywhere near there.

As I said in the topic, I fully support you and everyone else there, but the fact remains I truly don't think it will do any good in its current form. Maybe, I'm wrong and I hope I am.

[StarsInHerHair]

26. solar cell phone chargers-tell them

[H2O Man]

15. Three things:

Jail, the ER, and the cemetery. Until people are willing to face these, nothing will change for the better.

Recommended.

[xchrom]

19. Unrec - shit has to start some place. Get your ass there & get arrested if you're so 'concerned'

About how to do it right.

[SidDithers]

21. +1...nt

Sid

[Lionessa]

27. THEY?!? It's going to take WE, including you and me. So if WE want it to work

we all need to make a beeline to the nearest related protest or better yet to Wallstreet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Hmm does a tree fall in the woods if you don't hear it?

For all you know arrests have happened... just saying...

Media ain't covering it... so it ain't happening.

Like oh Wisconsin..

[white_wolf]

37. Good point. I don't expect the media to cover this unless they have to.

I knew about WI for a couple of weeks before the rest of my family did because I knew about it from DU, but the media didn't start covering those protests for a while.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. And they started very small...

[Odin2005]

34. Folks need to occupy the NYSE building on a trading day.

[hootinholler]

35. Give it time, let it simmer

Like a good stew, the chosen tactic takes a bit of time and I think those that brought tents understand that. I for one am gaining faith in my children's generation, not that I had questioned it before.

Realize that every major city has a financial district more or less. At some point things will be clogged up enough that authority will do something, which will be defied. They are very aware of the possibility of agents provocateur and are on the lookout for it.

If we can DU anything for the protest it is to feed them.

-Hoot

[white_wolf]

38. I actually am looking into seeing if there are any satellite protests in my area.

[KoKo]

49. +!

[Lint Head]

44. Even MLK's followers occupied lunch counters and went into the areas they

were forbidden to enter. They got results. This is another struggle that will change nothing until there is sacrifice from protesters. Too many Wall Street pigs need to be thrown into the pen where they can wallow in the slop with other like minded pigs.

[mmonk]

51. Alot will depend on how long they are there and if the numbers grow

and authorities feel the urge to remove them.

[Shagbark Hickory]

53. We'll see. I predict they'll be cleared out of there by 8am but hope I'm wrong about that.

[SlipperySlope]

54. What's the frequency Kenneth?

Kick!