Jesus.... I Believe That The Execution Of Troy Davis Is A Political Act, And NOT An Act Of Justice

[WillyT]

And yeah I'm against the Death Penalty, but this case is beyond the pale...

Troy Davis' request to take polygraph test is denied
By Bill Rankin - The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
9:45 a.m. Wednesday, September 21, 2011

<snip>

Troy Anthony Davis' lawyers this morning were turned away by prison officials, who rejected their attempt to allow Davis to take a polygraph test to try and show he is not a cop killer.

Davis had requested to take a polygraph test before he is scheduled to be executed Wednesday night to show he is not a cop killer, his lawyer said late Tuesday evening.

"Mr. Davis believes he is innocent and he wants to show it," Stephen Marsh, one of Davis' lawyers, said. "We hope he'll be allowed this opportunity."

Davis, who has always maintained his innocence, sits on death row for the 1989 murder of off-duty Savannah Police Officer Mark Allen MacPhail. The state Board of Pardons and Paroles denied him clemency early Tuesday. He is set to be put to death by lethal injection at 7 p.m.

<snip>

Link: http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/troy-davis-request-to-1185439.html

:argh:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. that is because you don't know the facts of the case... n/t

[Parker CA]

2. And what exactly are the facts? Why would a request for a polygraph be denied?

I agree with the OP that those in leadership of this decision seem dead set on murdering this man regardless of all information providing reasonable doubt.

Truly sickening to watch this unfold.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

7. you can look up the facts for yourself...

google is your friend. and polygraphs can be defeated and just plain wrong. just try to insert polygraph evidence into a trial in some jurisdictions.

what is truly sickening is that people will take the partial story being presented in the media and think it tells them all they need to know...

sP

[WillyT]

14. And You Would Put Davis To Death When There Is So Much Doubt ???

The execution of Troy Davis, a Georgia death row inmate scheduled to die in less than a week, should be halted because of "pervasive, persistent doubts" about his guilt, said William S. Sessions, a former federal district judge in Texas and FBI director under Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, in a sharply-worded editorial on Thursday.

"Serious questions about Mr. Davis' guilt, highlighted by witness recantations, allegations of police coercion, and a lack of relevant physical evidence, continue to plague his conviction," Sessions wrote. He urged a state pardons board to commute the sentence to life in prison.

The unusual plea from Sessions, which appears in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, is the latest high-profile call for clemency for Davis, whose looming execution has become a lightning rod for national and international criticism. Among those who have called for a halt to the execution, scheduled for Sept. 21 at 7 p.m., are Pope Benedict XVI, former President Jimmy Carter and the leadership of the NAACP and Amnesty International.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/15/troy-davis-execution-william-sessions_n_963366.html

:wtf:

[msanthrope]

72. I am gving the link to the Moore ruling--I don't think there's much doubt.

1) There is more than enough evidence that jurors can and did reasonably find Troy Davis guilty BRD.

2) The 'recantations' cited by the defense were not properly pursued and documented.


http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf


I think Davis suffered from poor legal representation in the 2010 hearing, but I don't like to judge other lawyers.

[WillyT]

86. So... We're Gonna Kill A Guy Because He Didn't Follow Proper Protocol ???

Really ???

Well... if this comes to pass, then maybe we can use it to end Capital Punishment once and for all.

:shrug:

[EOTE]

88. And she seems to have no problem with that.

These defenders are making me absolutely sick to my stomach. It's one thing to be horribly ignorant. It's a whole other story to be so proudly ignorant and cavalier regarding another man's life. It's absolutely psychopathic behavior.

[msanthrope]

144. Actually, I and the other lawyer on the thread are anti-DP. But Troy Davis

is guilty of murder.

[EOTE]

145. Sickening.

It's because of people like you and their complete lack of independent thought that Troy Davis will be murdered tonight. And I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that anyone with such a loose grasp of the English language could be a lawyer. But then I see the fucked up lawyers responsible for the deaths of so many innocents and I have an easier time with that.

[msanthrope]

150. It's easy defending the innocent. Tougher to stand with the guilty

and be anti-DP. Davis is guilty. Doesn't mean his death is right.

[EOTE]

152. Can you point to any evidence that he's guilty?

Other than "the judge said so!" Of course. I look forward to your next deflection.

[msanthrope]

155. I can lead you to rulings, but I can't make you read them. His guilt doesn't change your stance

does it?

[EOTE]

156. once more slowly just for you I read it

There's no evidence. Is English not your native tongue?

[msanthrope]

103. do you want courts to accept unsworn, uncrossed evidence?

due process doesn't allow that.

[EOTE]

108. No. But I also don't want them to accept testimony that has been contradicted

by the one doing the testifying. All of those testimonies should have been thrown out.

[WillyT]

143. This Case Makes A Mockery Of "Due Process", Capital Punishment, And OUR ENTIRE JUSTICE SYSTEM !!!

It is now more evident than ever, that this is the American "Just Us" System!

:mad:

[msanthrope]

154. Sadly, Davis had bites at the apple few did. His 2010 hearing was

badly handled but amazimg that he got that.

[Hippo_Tron]

157. You said "not much doubt"

I think that's a crappy standard to be applying the death penalty. Don't you think it ought to be more like "no conceivable way that this person could possibly be innocent". Death can't be reversed...

[Capitalocracy]

170. "Not much doubt"

is supposedly too much doubt to convict for any crime, much less take someone's life.

But those are just words in the real world, apparently.

[pipi_k]

22. A polygraph on its own

would probably be suspect.

But a polygraph along with the recanted stories of a majority of the nine witnesses would surely make me have some reasonable doubt.

[EOTE]

26. So you're fine with a person being sent to death with ZERO physical evidence against them.

And with 7 out of 9 witnesses retracting their stories and saying they were coerced by police. One of those remaining 2 is most likely the real murderer. Do you really feel comfortable sending someone to their death with such flimsy (or nonexistent) evidence against them?

[WillyT]

27. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

EXACTLY !!!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. yep...ZERO evidence...that's what they had...

[EOTE]

30. Please provide any physical evidence that you are aware of.

And before you say it, yes, I already googled it. I've found nothing. If you have such serious evidence, please provide it. If you're incapable of providing it, your argument is as flimsy as the prosecution's.

[WillyT]

33. ALL They Had Was Eye-Witness Accounts

Who have mostly recanted their stories.

And possible police coercion... no no... that never happens.

Feh...

:puke:

[Pithlet]

35. Well, they aren't very credible witnesses. We can't trust that they're telling the truth

when they say they changed their minds. So, clearly, that's an iron clad case! How can you argue with facts like that? Clearly, we're the stupid liberals believing the liberal media spin. :crazy:

[WillyT]

38. LOL !!!

:D

:hi:

[msanthrope]

77. No. They had ballistics, which the basis for the current emergency appeal.

Davis's attorney's are in court right now, challenging the ballistics.....

Ballistics are physical evidence, my friend.

[EOTE]

80. Ballistics means NOTHING if they can't prove he touched that gun.

The only physical evidence retrieved from the scene were bullets and shell casings. So how the hell are you considering ballistics information to be evidence against him?

[jberryhill]

100. Because they match those of the other guy he killed

You do know about the other homicide of which he stands convicted and nobody questions, right?

[EOTE]

105. Troy Davis? You're saying he's been convicted of another homicide?

I was aware he was charged (which obviously means very little), but had heard nothing of him being convicted. Please provide a link.

[jberryhill]

111. Excuse me, "shot", not killed

Michael Cooper.

Who shot him?

[EOTE]

113. Not Troy Davis.

There's zero physical evidence against him in either case. Can you provide any? Or is it just enough that someone's gonna die? Doesn't really matter who, does it?

[EOTE]

119. Nobody questions it my ass. This is part of the same damned case.

So we're supposed to think that his murder is OK because he's also been accused of another crime with zero evidence presented against him? It's really hard to refute evil, incomprehensible logic like that. Do you take your inspiration from the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland?

[EOTE]

94. Crickets again?

Just wanted to stay long enough to get in your calls for blood? Providing a cogent argument would just take too much work, huh? The least you two could do is provide an apology for caring more about your pound of flesh than having a just legal system. I can only hope you'll learn from such sick behavior.

[EOTE]

45. Crickets?

You were rather insistent a few minutes ago on getting your pound of flesh. Then when numerous people requested to see the evidence that apparently only you were privy to, now you're strangely silent. Still looking for that evidence? Bloodthirsty is not a quality most people aspire to.

[The Doctor.]

61. So, you're not even going to bother to make shit up?

Just 'it's out there somewhere, go look for it'?

Sorry cupcake, I don't fall for that anymore.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

136. ahhh...your victory is now complete

[EOTE]

137. You seem to be the one who's concerned with winning.

The rest of us are just shocked at your lack of conscience. You can at least admit you were wrong and attempt to regain some humanity.

[The Doctor.]

164. 'Humani-wutnow?'

I've noticed you on DU since before dirt was a sonogram.

Are you really surprised at all?

[EOTE]

168. I suppose I shouldn't be.

I'm just sad for all of humanity now. I feel so incredibly dirty and ashamed. I want to say that this wasn't done in my name, but it was. And there's nothing I can do about it. I feel sick all over.

[The Doctor.]

163. It's not about 'victory'.

It's about 'cutting through bullshit'.

I know it when I see it, I cut through it, and I'm good at it. Sue me for the Oxford comma if you'd like.

[EOTE]

65. Have you changed your mind on this?

Are you not sickened in the least that a man who is most likely innocent will be murdered by the state tonight? It may be too late to save Troy Davis as of now, but it's not too late to be utterly and completely repulsed by the legal system which killed him. We need to make certain that this never happens again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. You mean that seven out of nine witnesses

have recanted their testimony? That is for starters.

Yes google is your friend indeed.

[msanthrope]

67. google is yours. Can you produce those recantations? His attorneys couldn't.

I mean, I hate to crap on the "Troy Davis had 7 of 9 witnesses recant" parade, but Troy Davis' attorneys failed to produce those recantations in a court of law when it mattered--in 2010.

Recantation is a specific legal process. A single witness, Kevin McQueen, was produced by the defense, and passed that process.

[EOTE]

70. Yes. I can produce a number of them.

http://clatl.com/atlanta/seven-of-nine-witnesses-against-troy-davis-have-recanted-their-testimony/Content?oid=1275776

If they weren't able to pass legal muster, then that's an additional problem with the legal system. They all said that they were coerced into saying Davis was guilty by police. They had no issue taking their coerced confessions in the first place, but wouldn't listen to them when they recanted their stories. Do you not think it's abhorrent that Troy Davis is going to be killed with zero physical evidence against him?

[msanthrope]

74. Those aren't recantations. You know why?

To recant, you have to show up, be sworn and crossed in a court of law. Just like testifying--you show up, in a court of law, swear and be crossed.

You can't write up a piece of paper, call it an 'affidavit' and then expect a court to accept it. In 2010, the defense didn't call any of these people to testify.

FYI--there isn't zero physical evidence against him. Today, his defense attorneys are challenging the ballistics. Ergo, there's some physical evidence presented against him.

[EOTE]

76. But why the hell is he being put to death if that's the SOLE reason he was found guilty?

So Troy Davis has nothing but eyewitnesses (most of whom have taken back their testimony, whether in a legal sense or not) as evidence against him. Do you believe that should be sufficient to send a man to his death? Really? And no, there is ZERO physical evidence against him. I don't care what ballistics are being challenged, they never proved that Troy Davis ever touched the gun that killed the cop. For ballistics evidence to be worth a damn, you'd have to prove that first.

[msanthrope]

79. The eyewitness testimony and the ballistics evidence remain legally intact..

Moore's ruling on this is pretty thorough. Given the evidence presented, I am not surprised Davis was found guilty.

http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf

[EOTE]

81. And ONCE AGAIN, you provide nothing in terms of evidence.

THERE IS NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AGAINST TROY DAVIS. Neither you, nor your buddy have been able to come up with one iota. You keep linking to the judge's ruling, yet you provide absolutely no specific reference to evidence. Are you so bloodthirsty that you don't need actual evidence to send someone to their death? There have been dozens of requests for actual physical evidence against Troy Davis and you haven't provided a damned thing. Leave your bloodlust to yourself. There are people here who actually have consciences.

[msanthrope]

120. I have repeatedly provided the Moore ruling, which states the evidence on which

the conviction rests. If you dispute Judge Moore's findings, cite them.

[EOTE]

121. Are you freaking kidding me?

I've read the ruling. Once again, there is ZERO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE against him. The judge was an asshole and an idiot. You haven't mentioned one specific portion of his ruling. Either you are intensely intellectually lazy, are completely indifferent to an innocent being murdered, or both. Either way, it's sick. Providing a ruling means absolutely nothing. If a ruling hadn't come down against him, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Your logic seems to be that if anyone is found guilty by a judge, they are actually guilty, so we don't need to concern ourselves any further. That's beyond idiotic, it's disgusting and has no place in a modern legal system.

[msanthrope]

129. I am not kidding you. You have the ruling. Tell us what you disagree with.

Have you considered that the two lawyers you are arguing with might know a bit more law than you do?

[EOTE]

133. THERE'S NOTHING TO DISAGREE WITH!

What don't you understand here? It doesn't matter how much they know about the law, we're talking about right and wrong here. Because you're obviously very slow and have problems thinking, I'll ask you once again. What is the evidence? I already know the judge's reasoning. If you're capable of independent thought, surely you should be able to provide at least a shred of physical evidence, right? Silly me assuming again.

[msanthrope]

146. Then you agree with Judge Moore that Troy Davis is guilty of murder.

So do I.

[EOTE]

149. Wow You are the opposite of clever

And far from funny. I was obviously referring to there being nothing to refute in terms of evidence, because none was presented.

[EOTE]

139. Let me provide your logic here:

The judge provided a ruling, so he's obviously guilty.

You have the logical ability of every fundy that I've hard a conversation with.

Me: So how do you know that the bible only contains the truth?

Fundy: Because it was written by god.

Me: But how do you know that it was written by god?

Fundy: Because the bible says so and the bible is the truth.

Me: (bangs head against wall).



No, there's just no arguing against your type of logic.

[EOTE]

122. There's nothing to dispute because the judge cites absolutely nothing of substance.

You have been able to provide absolutely nothing in terms of substance either. Providing a link to a 100+ ruling does absolutely nothing but demonstrate your intellectual laziness.

[msanthrope]

138. The judge said nothing of substance? Dear me. I thought his analysis of Herrera

spot on. had davis provided adequate witnesses I think he would have had a shot.

[EOTE]

140. So once again you pass up on the opportunity to provide even a shred of evidence.

Don't feel bad, I'd have been shocked as hell if you provided anything of even moderate intelligence.

[msanthrope]

158. I can lead you to rulings, but I can't make you read them.

[EOTE]

159. I read the ruling, you haven't.

If you had, you'd either be able to provide the evidence or you'd realize that you're full of shit.

[EOTE]

82. OK. So the ballistics evidence shows that the cop was killed with a .38.

That's the important part, right? Who gives a fuck who actually FIRED that .38? Dear god, do you not realize how incredibly sick this kind of thinking is?

[jberryhill]

101. How do you explain his other conviction?

[EOTE]

106. What other conviction? NT

[jberryhill]

109. For shooting Michael Cooper

[EOTE]

114. This is part of the same damned case.

There's zero physical evidence against Davis for either of those. Does physical evidence not matter to you?

[jberryhill]

132. A lot of things matter to me

One of those things is my lifelong opposition to the death penalty.

Any system of human judgment is fallible, and will certainly result in the execution of innocent people. It is a statistical certainty, and is IMHO the primary reason why the death penalty should not be used in the first place.

By the time you are down to picking over the facts of the case, it is really a tremendous exercise in missing the point.

There have been threads on DU suggesting we should or should not execute people on the basis of polygraph results, which is f-ing ridiculous.

The recantations have been gone over in excruciating detail by three courts, and they don't meet the trial testimony, and don't include all of the witnesses.

The shell casings from the Cooper shooting match those of the McPhail shooting.

All of that is entirely beside the point that NOBODY should be executed in the first place.

This whole business of saying THIS person shouldn't be executed, seems to assume that some people should be executed and some other people shouldn't be executed, depending on whether X, Y or Z happened at the trial or was later found to be true. That line of argument buys into the legitimacy of the death penalty in the first place.

To put it simply, the death penalty is an obscene barbarity whether Troy Davis is innocent or whether he is guilty.

He should not be executed. Nobody should be executed. You are not going to persuade me that any one execution is more acceptable than another.

[EOTE]

135. I, too have consistently opposed the death penalty.

But I wonder why it is that you bring up the other shooting when there's once again zero evidence that links Troy Davis to that one either. Why would you even mention that?

[jberryhill]

153. Because the discussion of Troy Davis' guilt is irrelevant

Some people think that if they can point to an example of an innocent person being executed, that it somehow helps persuade others that the death penalty is wrong.

It doesn't.

What it has done is to interpose various levels of mandatory post-conviction review and dual appeal tracks, because the perceived criticism is that wha is needed are some kind of "additional safeguard" or ad-hoc rules like "not in cases with no physical evidence", and so on.

That kind of tinkering simply prolongs the torture of a death sentence hanging over someone's head.

It is perfectly fine to convict someone of murder on the unrecanted testimony in this case to the effect that he shot Cooper and that the casings from both shootings match. The recantations themselves are further suspect in that they do not meet the initial testimony, one is unsworn, and none of the witnesses was produced to testify about the recantations.

The conviction is not the issue. The death penalty is the issue. All these cases do is to persuade that some other ad-hoc process would "fix the problem".

[EOTE]

161. I agree that the death penalty is extremely flawed and can't be fixed.

However, I don't think it's anywhere near fine to convict someone of murder solely based upon one's testimony especially when it's extremely likely that police coercion was involved. I find nothing in Davis' trial that gives me any hope for our justice system.

[Pithlet]

9. There will be no facts forthcoming. There never are.

Every story on this with a comments section gets this from those supporting his execution. But those "facts" somehow never materialize.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

12. bullshit...

go read something from the judge in the case...it's not my fault you deniers aren't doing any research.

sP

[Pithlet]

16. Oh, would that be the judge who says the witnesses aren't credible?

Hmmm.... Now, why would we put a man to death based on their testimony, then? Smoke and mirrors indeed.

[socialist_n_TN]

37. Hmmm. I wonder when the witnesses weren't credible

Was that before or after they recanted their testimony.

It's sad that I'm getting used to this kind of travesty of justice in some states in this country.

[msanthrope]

68. Judge Moore said the recantations weren't credible because the defense attorneys didn't call the

witnesses to be examined.

And they didn't. Recantation is generally not accepted by a court unless the witness can be produced and crossed. Then the judge can give weight to the testimony.

[Pithlet]

102. That still isn't evidence. The poster claims there were things about the trial we didn't know.

If there is a new trial, these witnesses could be produced and testify. If he doesn't get a new trial, and is instead executed, this couldn't happen now, could it? None of the things you say change the fact that this man will be executed based on witnesses that have since said they've changed their minds. The claims that we don't know what we're talking about and dont' know the whole story are baseless.

[msanthrope]

123. The first 60 pages of the ruling outline the evidence against him.Rr

A new trial? If he cant get witnesses to a hearing he wont be granted a new trial.

[EOTE]

125. And for some damned reason, you can't even specify what that evidence is.

Listen, I've told you many times before that the evidence is completely absent minus extremely unreliable witness testimony. You are apparently unable to think for yourself to the extent that you can't explain why you think the ruling is just but can only provide a link to it. The link is absolutely worthless unless you can explain why you think there is additional evidence against him. Or you can continue to imply that judges are completely incapable of making bad, egregious rulings. Thinking people simply don't think like you do.

[Pithlet]

128. If it outlines the evidence, then why is it so hard for anyone to explain what that evidence is?

It seems to me that if the case against him is so cut and dry with all this evidence, then why is it gaining this huge international attention? Wow, that really is amazing. Also amazing how some have such a hard time getting a new trial. That seems to happen a lot.

[EOTE]

131. Surely providing a link is enough, right?

Here, I'll provide another link. wikipedia.org . All the evidence is contained within. Can't find it? Then you're just not looking hard enough.

It's the disgusting, contorted logic displayed above that has led to Troy Davis being murdered by the state. I'm not surprised we see such disgusting thinking in the U.S., but I am sure as hell surprised and disturbed to see it on DU. I'd probably be banned if I said what I really thought about certain posters on this thread. So I'll just call them sickening cowards instead.

[ceile]

18. And judges are never wrong...

mindless cogs, indeed.

[Pithlet]

19. Yep. That would be those "facts". n/t

[WillyT]

21. Wow... Were You At The Reagan Library Recently ???

:shrug:

[The Doctor.]

34. Your position is not rational.

I would say that your willingness to ignore the vast doubts while simultaneously being unwilling to bring whatever evidence or facts that compels you to assert the necessity of this man's death indicates something besides knowledge or understanding and more likened to an ideological impetus to impose a draconian characteristic upon society as a whole.

It could more easily be summed up as 'bloodthirsty'.

I'll be happy to revise my observation if you have links to whatever it is that has you convinced of this man's guilt.

[Zax2me]

96. Why would it be denied? Please.

You are ripe.

[EOTE]

142. Because they'd look even fucking worse when he passes it. NT

[bananas]

6. The facts are irrelevant, an innocent person may be executed as long as due process was followed

We are just mindless cogs in a mindless machine pretending to do justice.
Facts are irrelevant, the pretense is all that matters.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

13. and let's also have mindless 'cogs'

who will fall for whatever the fucking media tells them...

sP

[ceile]

17. Yep. We're all a bunch of idiots..

[The Doctor.]

60. That's right. The information is 'out there somewhere'. If we can't find it, that's our problem.

:eyes:

[WillyT]

8. Yes... Please Fill Us In On "The Facts"

Troy Anthony Davis (born October 9, 1968) was convicted of the August 19, 1989, murder of Savannah, Georgia, police officer Mark MacPhail. In 2009, the U.S. Supreme Court ordered that an evidentiary hearing be conducted to examine alleged recantations by trial witnesses and determine if clear and convincing evidence existed to prove Davis' innocence. On August 24, 2010, the conviction was upheld, with the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Georgia declaring, "Davis is not innocent."<1>

Davis has been on death row in Georgia since 1991. Throughout the original trial and subsequent appeals, Davis maintained his innocence, saying he was wrongfully convicted of the crime as a result of false identification. Between the trial and first set of appeals, seven of the nine prosecution eyewitnesses who had linked Davis to the killing have recanted their trial testimony, with many stating that they were coerced by police.<2> The witness who first implicated Davis and has remained consistent, Sylvester "Redd" Coles, was initially a suspect in the crime. Coles was seen acting suspiciously the night of MacPhail's murder. One person has said that Coles boasted at a party that he killed an off-duty police officer.<3> One witness did not recant his testimony and is not himself a suspect in the murder; he made an in-court identification of Davis at the original trial.

<And...>

Amnesty International, a human rights organization, has taken up Davis' cause, although Amnesty International is officially neutral as to whether Davis is guilty or innocent.<7> The advocacy group strongly condemned U.S. courts that refused to examine Davis' evidence and organized rallies and letter-writing campaigns to persuade the Georgia and federal courts to grant Davis a new trial or an evidentiary hearing.<3> Many prominent politicians and leaders, including former President Jimmy Carter,<8> Al Sharpton,<9> Pope Benedict XVI,<9> Nobel laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu,<9> Presidential candidate Bob Barr,<9> and former FBI Director and judge William S. Sessions<10> have called upon the courts to grant Davis a new trial or evidentiary hearing.<11>

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis_case

:shrug:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

11. ahhh...the wiki-source...

i recommend you do a simple Google search of Judge William Moore's federal court decision a couple of years ago after the US Supreme Court gave Davis the rare opportunity to essentially have a second trial and make his case. Read how the judge systematically discredits this defense as "smoke and mirrors" and explains why these witnesses are now either not credible or did not actually changetheir testimony as Davis' lawyers now contend. The media does not tell you now how Davis fled Savannah shortly after the murder or how he somehow lost the clothes he was wearing that night or how he took the witness stand during his trial and was completely exposed on cross examination.

sP

[ceile]

15. Be as condescending as you want.

Reasonable doubt is reasonable doubt.

[COLGATE4]

24. K&R. People should look at the actual record rather than using

this as an opportunity to breast-beat about capital punishment. Davis had not one but two bites at the apple and was convicted in both of them. The fact that now some witnesses claim to have changed their stories does not make them more credible now than when they were on the stand on open court.

[Pithlet]

29. That makes absolutely no sense.

If you're claiming they aren't credible, then why in the hell are you claiming it's okay to allow their testimony? The very fact they changed their testimony is a damn good reason not to execute someone. That's the whole point. It's also a damn good reason not to hang a capitol case solely or heavily on testimony to begin with The fact that he got "Two bites" at it is irrelevant. They were two bites at a flimsey case.

[pipi_k]

39. And actually...

what I understand is that the "two bites" he got were based on procedure...not evidence, or lack of it.

So this is a whole 'nother issue here. Totally different and worthy of consideration.

Oh, and to make it all worse...the request for polygraph has been denied.

Wow. Talk about determination to follow through on something that could end up being so morally wrong.

[Pithlet]

44. Exaclty. It doesn't give any weight to the claim that there was evidence.

Even though I don't put any stock in polygraphs, I also agree that denying him that was just petty. Give the man his last request. It has no legal weight, so it wouldn't have cost anyone anything.

[msanthrope]

69. It does make sense. when you have sworn and crossed testimony, and then a recant

that is unsworn, or uncrossed, then you always go with the former, not the latter.

The fact is, Davis suffered from bad representation in 2010--those witnesses needed to becalled, sworn, and crossed, for the judge to accept their recantations.

[Pithlet]

112. Oh, well. Of course, you go with the former and ignore the latter

And ignore the fact that the defendant had bad representation. Yes, of course THEN it makes sense. If you want to not give a shit and just execute people without giving a shit regarding due process. Otherwise, no. It doesn't make sense.

[msanthrope]

126. I'm not disagreeing with your frustration. Merely explaining how courts work.

[EOTE]

127. No, that's not what you were doing.

You suggested many times that there is physical evidence against Troy Davis and you believe he's guilty. Yet you haven't been able to provide a single shred of that evidence. You seem to know extremely little about how the legal system works as well.

[Pithlet]

130. Well, yeah. How our courts work is a darn good reason to ditch the death penalty.

That's the whole argument. They don't. Or rather, they don't when it comes to the death penalty.

[msanthrope]

151. I don't disagree that the DP should be done away with. But I don't think Davis is

innocent.

[WillyT]

31. It's Called Reasonable Doubt... And There Is Plenty Of It In This Case...

Plus... NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE

Interesting... how casual you are with a person's life.

And BTW... it is cases like this that may end up bringing Capital Punishment to an end.

Which would be totally fine with me.

[loyalsister]

49. Low standards of proof and participation should be an embarrassment

In MO, two guys sat on death row. One convicted of shooting and killing a man the other for not stopping him. The accomplice heard but did not see the killer shoot the victim.
The accomplice was executed in 2009 based on the assertion that he would have assumed the killer would shoot the victim.

The shooter admitted full responsibility (excluded from the accomplice's trial) and is still alive.
Given that standard, how many of us should be in jail for being accomplices to child abuse, vehicular homicide because we knew a driver was drunk? Are we expected to be aware of any and all potential criminality?

Of course this case shows how are we all vulnerable to what people might say about any one of us under pressure.

This is a law we all live under. And most of us do not have access to a stellar legal team. If we want the DP to be carried out with integrity, we should demand the highest possible standards of proof.

[The Doctor.]

40. Yet the facts prove you are clueless.

What physical evidence linked him to the crime?

That will change my mind.

With no physical evidence, YOU can be executed for a crime you didn't commit. That's ok with you? If it is, then at least you're not a hypocrite.

[pipi_k]

47. Actually it looks like a lack of evidence is what's driving

this thing forward.

They never did find the clothing he was wearing that night, so that made him guilty.

I believe they did not find a weapon.

No DNA, no blood...nothing.


Just nine people who said it was him. AND...one of the "witnesses" who did not recant is said to have told someone else that HE was the real shooter.

I just read that in an article I found.


Looks like they had preconceived ideas on the killer's ID, and then made sure their "evidence" (eyewitnesses) backed it up.

[The Doctor.]

54. Then post the goods. You're not looking too credible right now.

[The Doctor.]

62. Hey! I have a 'yes/no' question for you to run away from!

"How is the 'wiki-source' inaccurate"?

Some people have foolishly trusted you enough to 'google' it, and you tell them they can't trust what they've found. So please, we'd love to know just what we're missing here.

I'm just glad to have a bookmark to refer to if ever the issue of your credibility comes up.

Thanks for that!

[Bluerthanblue]

110. so are you saying that Jimmy Carter and the former head of the FBI

are just mindless ditto-heads as you'd like to paint those who disagree with you to be?

If there is ANY doubt that this man is innocent, killing him is pre-meditated murder. None of us had any say in the death of the policeman which has led us to this day- but we sure as hell should do everything we can to stop another murder.

Call it what you will- the act of knowingly and willingly taking the life of another, when it is a CHOICE- is cold blooded murder.

[spanone]

56. the facts don't point to mr davis as the killer

[Puregonzo1188]

107. I've been following this case for over four years. I know there is no physical evidence, just

eyewitnesses. I know that in my home state of Maryland someone was sentenced to die based on the eyewitness testimony of six people. He later became one of the first people exonerated by DNA evidence.

I know that in Troy Davis's case 7 of the 9 witnesses have recanted. Of the two who haven't, one is implicated as the shooter by 10 witnesses. Three jurors have stated that wouldn't convict now based on this information.

Seriously--what are the facts of the case I need to know and don't give me some shit about "google" is my friend.

[realFedUp]

3. Can Obama stop this execution?

We live in very unjust times.

[sellitman]

10. My thought exactly

Presidential pardon time if there ever was time.

[polmaven]

50. The president

does not have the authority to pardon him. This is a state case. The president can only use his pardon authority in federal cases.

Unfortunately, in Georgia, that Governor does not have pardon authority either. The only avenue now is for the prosecutor to withdraw the application for death.

:cry:

[sellitman]

172. Did he approach the Prosecutor then?

I would hope he would of reached out.

[taught_me_patience]

148. This would be political suicide to even entertain this idea

It really is best for the president to stay out of this, no matter what he personally thinks about the matter.

[my2sense]

4. +1

The fact that several of the witnesses changed previous statements is enough to shed doubt. It seems SOMEBODY has to pay and Troy Davis is it. It's disgusting.

[LAGC]

5. We should have learned our lesson after Texas (under Rick Perry's watch) executed an innocent man...

...back in 2004.

In such a case where there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE tying him to the crime, only circumstantial witness testimony (with many who have since recanted) I don't know what more "reasonable doubt" people need any more.

I'm sure many will sit home and cheer as he's executed tonight. What a sick fucking country we have become.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iggo]

23. .

:toast:
:fistbump:
:applause:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. yes, because I read something from the judge that convinces me he's guilty

I am obviously wrong...none of you people could be...no, certainly not...you read something about it in USAToday magazine and now you're convinced.

sP

[EOTE]

36. In the death penalty, there's a HUGE burden put on the prosecution.

Unless, and ONLY unless they've proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt, the death penalty does not apply. I'll admit that there's a very small chance that Davis is guilty (I severely doubt it), but there's no way that a man should be put to death in a case that's so incredibly full of holes. Now you've said that you're aware of physical evidence against Troy Davis. Please provide that evidence. If you can't, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

[The Doctor.]

41. Let's see it then.

I'm willing to be convinced.

[EOTE]

42. Evidence is so passe.

I don't see how anyone's bloodlust can be satiated if we insist upon evidence every time we want the state to kill someone.

[pipi_k]

43. Last I knew...

Judges weren't God.

They're fallible human beings, just like the rest of us.

Even they can be wrong on occasion.


But...whatever.

It's an interesting attitude, though. It makes me sick to think that there are individuals out there who would probably agree with what that judge said even if Troy Davis were their own family member.

:(

[EOTE]

46. What was that something that you read?

Numerous people have asked you for it and you've replied with nothing more than a dismissive "google it". I've followed this case extensively for many years. I'm guessing I'd be aware of it if any actual evidence against Troy Davis existed. Being a decent person, I'm sure you'll provide that evidence, right?

[EOTE]

32. That was Cameron Todd Willingham.

And I'm quite certain that Texas alone has murdered many more innocents. Sick country indeed.

[aikoaiko]

48. Esp the Parole Board: They are appointees and they had discretion to commute the sentence

The first trial (police work and prosecution) was typical (albeit flawed) of the late 80s early 90s gang-drug war years. A cop was dead and there was political pressure to convict the killer.

However, his lawyers' attempt to prove his innocent were flawed as well. They didn't meet the burden at last year's hearing. I don't think that results was political.

I'm very bothered that the parole board didn't do its job because of what can only by attributed to political pressure. They are the once who could avoid the issue of guilt and innocence and commute the sentence.

[madrchsod]

51. i think jesus would agree with you...look what they did to him.

[newspeak]

53. thinking alike

jesus was crucified under roman law, if he existed. You really think that pontius pilate, who put many to death, actually had a conscience about Jesus? I think the romans did some editing to make them blameless and blame Jesus' own people. If jesus was seen as a rabble rouser, a political radical, the romans wouldn't have blinked an eye to put him to death.

We are an uncivilized nation among the industrialized nations, especially, when we have the cheerleaders who cheer death in general. This isn't the old west.

[EOTE]

52. Kick.

In hopes of hearing some of this mysterious evidence that some have alluded to.

[shireen]

57. ProdigalJunkMail assertions regarding this case are not credible.

Seriously, what are the facts?

[EOTE]

58. Oh yes, I know this.

I just wonder if he'll be embarrassed enough about his bloodthirstiness to offer some sort of explanation or apology. It just sickens me that someone could be so incredibly cavalier about the life of an innocent.

[The Doctor.]

63. That won't ever happen.

This is not a person with that kind of ethical sophistication.

[The Doctor.]

59. It's a time-dishonored tactic of disinformationists.

Claim that 'the information is out there somewhere', then tell them to go look for it. If they can't find it, then they aren't looking hard enough.

Transparent tactic. No one should fall for it.

[msanthrope]

71. here's the ruling--PJM's assertions are indeed correct.

http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf

[EOTE]

73. In no way are they correct.

He asserted that there was physical evidence against Troy Davis. He was pressed to provide that evidence and did no such thing. PJM actually believes that Troy Davis IS guilty, yet he's been able to provide not even an inkling as to why he feels that way. You seem to believe that Troy Davis did not receive adequate legal protection. That very well might be the case, but do you think he deserves to die because of that? This is a travesty all around. I don't see what good nit-picking at his defense is going to do.

[msanthrope]

75. Of course there's physical evidence--his attorney's are challenging it, right now, for a stay.

Seriously, if there's 'no physical evidence' then what ballistics are his attorneys challenging?

Evidence in another murder?

[EOTE]

78. Wouldn't you need to prove that Troy Davis actually, you know, used the gun first?

For that ballistics evidence to be worth anything? They never came close to proving that Troy Davis even touched that gun. So yes, ZERO physical evidence.

[msanthrope]

84. You don't need ballistics to prove someone handled a gun. nt

[EOTE]

85. Stop being so damned obtuse.

No shit, that's not what ballistics evidence is. But ballistics is WORTHLESS if you can't prove who handled the gun in the first place. There is NO EVIDENCE that Davis even touched the gun used to kill the cop. There have been dozens of requests for you and your buddy to produce any of that evidence and you haven't even tried. Sick, sick, sick.

[msanthrope]

116. the prosecution proved he used the murder weapon on the cop.

Thus the conviction for murder. tje jury can find for murder based on eyewitness or circumstantial evidence. you don't need physical evidence.

[EOTE]

117. No they didn't. And if you truly believe that, SHOW US.

They had NOTHING other than extremely unreliable witness testimony. If you disagree, SHOW US THE DAMNED EVIDENCE. And then you say "you don't need physical evidence."

So first you say they had physical evidence. Now you say you don't need physical evidence. Which one is it? And might I ask how it is that you sleep at night?

[EOTE]

87. Zero physical evidence. You are horribly wrong.

It's not evidence against Troy Davis to say that a cop was killed with a particular kind of bullet. It seems like you have zero clue as to what evidence actually is.

[EFerrari]

89. No murder weapon nor any DNA were recovered from the scene.

The poster is correct. The ballistics compare the death wound to another shooting, that's all.

[EOTE]

91. Well, ballistics evidence points to the cop most likely being shot by a man.

And it's looking like a man will be killed tonight. That's close enough, right? We don't need to be getting all nit-picky about this now, do we?

[msanthrope]

98. what you describe is physical evidence.

you may dispute what it means, but his attorney has conceded its very existence.

[EOTE]

99. Did you even read what you had responded to?

The only things found at the scene were bullets and casings. There is ZERO physical evidence against Troy Davis, you haven't even ATTEMPTED to provide any. Either provide a link to some of this evidence you claim to be privy to or stop acting so damned cavalierly about the upcoming murder of an innocent man. Do you realize how disgusting this behavior is?

[EFerrari]

141. You are in 'way over your head as usual. n/t

[kctim]

104. Who was the shooter in that other shooting?

[EOTE]

115. Most likely one of the 2 remaining witnesses who didn't recant their story. NT

[kctim]

167. Then why was Davis also convicted of that crime?

[EOTE]

169. He was railroaded for that crime so they could pin the other crime on him.

If they couldn't convict him on the first shooting, they sure as hell wouldn't be able to pin the second fatal shooting on him considering the same gun was used. It was a two for one deal, they pinned two crimes on an innocent man because they couldn't pin one on him alone. Isn't too difficult to figure out, is it?

[kctim]

171. Wow, I hadn't read that he was "railroaded" for the first crime

How did they pin that one on him?

[EOTE]

174. Same way they pinned the other one on him.

Eyewitness testimony and zero physical evidence.

[EOTE]

92. Never mind.

Apparently apostrophes are too difficult for you, I shouldn't expect you to know anything about legal standards. I'm just glad as hell you can't inflict your horrific logic upon any innocents.

[shireen]

175. thank you.

I'll take a look at it this weekend when work isn't driving me nuts.

[WCGreen]

64. Totally agree....

It's a long delayed lynching.

[EFerrari]

66. It's murder. n/t

[Skidmore]

83. How is this a political act when the case has made it to the

Supreme Court more than once? CYA maybe but CYA isn't necessarily political.

[EFerrari]

90. Because the Supreme Court is never political, right?

What?

[WillyT]

93. LOL !!! - MOST Of Politics Is Cover Your Ass...

See Watergate, Iran-Contra, 9-11...

:shrug:

[Zax2me]

95. His DEFENSE is political. Execution justice. Or, justice as our system sees it.

This is nothing more than a ploy by anti-death penalty people.
All at the cost of a widow and her husband, the man Davis murdered. I feel for these two.
Him?
Could not possibly care less.

[EOTE]

97. NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE!!!

You have no problem with someone being put to their death with zero physical evidence against them. That is absolutely disgusting. We're not fit to call ourselves a third world country if that's the kind of standard we use to put someone to their death.

[Bluerthanblue]

118. killing a person will NEVER restore the life of anyone.

your statement that you "could not possibly care less" is a pretty damning picture of who you are as a person.

You "feel" for "a widow and her (dead) husband"- but couldn't care less about another mans life being pre-meditated-ly, coldly, and calculatedly taken by "the state"????

I hope you never are judged in the manner you judging those you choose to hate.

The never ending spiral MLK spoke of continues. For a while longer. But it will end. Someday it will.

[countryjake]

134. The whole damn system is guilty!

The murder of Troy Davis is nothing more than a legal lynching by the Jim-Crow hold-outs stomping their tiny feet in Georgia!

Racism most certainly is political, and the utter arrogance of those demanding the execution of a man whose conviction overflows with "reasonable doubt" absolutely reeks of it!

[Arugula Latte]

162. "Could not possibly care less" -- You don't care that there is a possibility a man will be murdered

for a crime he didn't commit?

That says a lot about your (lack of) humanity.

[The Doctor.]

165. So it would be ok with you for the state to put you to death,

Even if you were innocent with no physical evidence linking you to the crime.

That you would accept the verdict of a jury of your peers regardless of whether you committed that crime or not, that you would accept your fate and die for the state, and that you would do so knowing that your death would further the message that 'crime doesn't pay' is very, very noble of you.

I find that admirable.

[Atman]

124. Totally. Just finished reading John Grisham's "The Confession."

Summer pulp reading, but like all Grisham books, they're interesting and a quick read. But "The Confession" was full of twists and turns, and was actually quite interesting -- about the subject of executions in Texas. Grisham always writes from fact-based stories, and the politics of executions is pretty incredible. It was a sickening story, but unfortunately not all that surprising given that the state in question was Texas. Probably not much different in Georgia.

[taught_me_patience]

147. We're probably not getting all the facts of the case.

Rushing to judgement on this one could backfire.

[EOTE]

160. The facts are that he was convicted with zero physical evidence.

And that 7 of the 9 witnesses who testified against him have recanted their stories and many have said that they were coerced by the police to identify against Davis. That alone tells me that he shouldn't have been convicted. If he's killed due to this travesty of a trial, it's murder plain and simple.

[flvegan]

166. How many times do I have to say this? Execution is NOT justice.

It's revenge. It's human emotion.

[Lex]

173. ...and it doesn't prevent crime either.