Look---You're either 100 percent for the Death Penalty or 100 percent against it.

[trumad]

I really can't see how you can pick and choose. :shrug:

[gateley]

1. I'm 100% against, except if the last name is Bush, Rumsfeld or Cheney. nt

[teddy51]

4. +1 n/t

[truebrit71]

2. I'm for it for the Byrd killers...and against it for Troy Davis

I can pick and choose becaseu one guy not only said he did it, but woould do it again if he had the chance, the other one has said he is innocent from day one...

[trumad]

6. So in some case---no problem

in other---no way?

You do know that some think Davis is guilty including the family. They obviously think he should die.

See the problem here... ???

[truebrit71]

38. Actually I don't...

You said "You're" either for it or against it. I am both for it and against it, what the victim's family thinks or doesn't think, is neither here nor there for me...

[H2O Man]

45. That, of course,

is "pro-death penalty." Relatively few people are in favor of executing someone they consider innocent.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pintobean]

22. I'm not sensitive or little

[trumad]

24. Please note you're the only one who bitched about the word 'look"...

thus making you ---overly sensitive.

[WCGreen]

5. 100% against....

Talk about the state having too much power over individuals...

[Cool Logic]

7. My opposition to the death penalty is not philosophical...

rather, I oppose the death penalty due to racist and sexist nature of its application.

[trumad]

10. Mine is simple.

It's not full proof.

[LuckyLib]

34. You mean "fool proof" -- those fools in Georgia are on the road to one more mistake

within a two-tiered justice system.

[aikoaiko]

9. You can be for it in some cases and not in others. No?

[trumad]

11. no---because it makes it arbitrary.

[aikoaiko]

21. The application of the DP can still follow rules rather than being capricious.

[Pithlet]

27. It's human beings applying those rules.

So you'll still get Troy Davis cases. The GA pardon board didn't follow the rules.

[Shagbark Hickory]

12. I'm still trying to make up my mind. Maybe someone here can help me.

I'm largely against the dealth penalty but not for the usual reasons.
I'm against it because it isn't that severe of a penalty when you think about it. It's supposed to be the worst penalty but if you ask me, it's an easy way out. The convict doesn't serve their time because they're off roasting in flying spaghetti hell.

[City Lights]

13. I agree, and I am 100% against it.

Rec'd.

[kctim]

14. You are right

I am 100% for it and I don't make excuses to justify to myself when I am not.

[trumad]

Is it full proof?

Have innocent people been executed?

[polmaven]

26. It is not..

and I would be against it even if it WAS 100% fool proof.

[trumad]

29. Me too

but it not being full proof slam dunks the moral argument.

[kctim]

61. Nothing is full proof

but you stated that you are either 100% for or against it, and I agree with that statement.

[Arugula Latte]

28. So you're okay with the fact that many innocent people have been put to death in our names.

That is well documented. It's not just one or two -- there have been many, many -- many of them poor and/or uneducated and/or non-white. And you're okay with the fact that people lie on the stand and are pressured into testifying falsities and also that prosecutors have been known to plant or tamper with evidence. So murdering innocent people in our justice system is fine with you. That's what you're essentially saying if you're "100 percent" for it.

[kctim]

62. I am saying that I agree with trumad

and that one is either for or against it.

The extremes do not define the norm.
And believing in it 100% does not mean one does not support a change of status if proven innocent.

[Arugula Latte]

67. But in the real world, innocent people are killed.

Troy Davis will be killed today, and he is innocent. The system doesn't work; there are too many corrupt people working in it. Therefore, if you support the death penalty, you are supporting the reality that innocent people will be murdered by the state.

[kctim]

74. But in this trumad OP, he made a statement and I agreed with it

In regards to your opinion, yes, I support the death penalty and accept the reality that it is possible an innocent person may be executed. I also accept the reality that it is just as possible that a convicted murderer may murder more innocent people.

As far as Davis, you think he is innocent and those who convicted him on the evidence found him guilty, twice. Not to sound rude, but I am going with those who actually know about the case, not those who were just told about the case.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. I'm against murder by individuals or the state. No matter what the "justification" or legality.

See Auschwitz for "legal" for an example of "legal" murder.

[Parker CA]

100% against it. No exception.

[ellenfl]

16. i disagree. some bad guys are irredeemable, imo.

i think hitler, pol pot, charles manson, john wayne gacy and jeffrey daumer deserved the death penalty, just to name five. however, the person's guilt would have to be indisputable, as was the guilt of the aforementioned 5.

ellen fl

[Arugula Latte]

17. Yes. The possibility of one innocent person dying should render the whole concept moot.

[trumad]

19. Exactly

[LynneSin]

18. I was for it until I heard what Matthew Shepard's father did at the trial for the man that....

murdered his son. Mr. Shepard spoke at the death penalty sentencing for the one convicted of felony murder. Mr. Shepard could have easily demanded the death penalty for what this person did to his son but instead asked that his son's murder be given a life sentence.

I think it was Gandhi who said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

[Fuzz]

20. Though it wasn't a death penalty case exactly, I was for killing bin Laden.

Anti-death penalty though.

[Nye Bevan]

23. Disagree, although I happen to be 100% against.

I can see how someone *might* support it *only* in cases where guilt is absolutely, unequivocally certain. Which is obviously not the case with Troy Davis.

[trumad]

25. Again--- some people think that Davis is 100 percent guilty...

Obviously the Governor of Georgia does.

[polmaven]

32. To be absolutely fair..

The Governor of Georgia, unlike many other states, does not have the power to grant clemency or to stop the execution.

[JohnnyRingo]

33. There is however, a "shadow of doubt".

I believe that's the legal standard the state finds itself responsible for. Even those who feel 100% sure he's guilty have to admit new evidence has been presented since the judgment was handed down. Some ghouls are just eager to pull the switch on someone. Anyone.

If there is "no shadow of doubt", as in Gacy, Dahmer, or McVeigh, screw 'em. The world's a better place without them.

On edit: I should add that there is never an excuse to be in a hurry as they seem to be in this case.

[Pithlet]

30. Then they'd still be for the death penalty. n/t

[EFerrari]

55. But that isn't the way the law is applied. n/t

[JohnnyRingo]

31. I'm not opposed if there's not a shadow of doubt..

That is to say that I'm not going to shed a tear for anyone who heartlessly murdered to a level that meets the capital punishment standard if they can assure me absolutely that they aren't about to kill an innocent person.

That certainly is a high bar for the state to hurdle, but even one wrongful execution is one too many. I've yet to feel a single pang of remorse for what I feel are the justifiable ends of such notables as Dahmer and Gacy. Though I don't think the state should have killed McVeigh before they learned who else was involved, I'm certain he earned the punishment and there's no chance he or his spawn will ever darken the lives of Americans again.

On edit: I should add that there is never an excuse to hurry an execution to meet an arbitrary date as the state of Georgia is doing here. I know he's been on death row for decades, but execution is permanent.

[MicaelS]

35. Fertilizer...I don't belief for one second every crime

Should be punishable by execution.

Do I think SOME crimes should be ABLE to be punishable by execution? Yes.

Do I think ALL crimes of a certain type should be punishable ONLY by execution? No.

Execution should be something the people of each state should decide on an individual basis. If the people of a certain state don't want to have execution as a valid and legal form of punishment for any or all crimes that should be up to the people of that state.

If you want a ban on Federal Executions than contact your legislators to repeal the Federal Death Penalty.

I would even support a nationwide ban on state and federal execution, as long as certain criminals were incarcerated for Life in Solitary Confinement with no possibility of Parole, EVER. I don't want certain criminals, murderers for instance, in the general population where they could murder a guard or another inmate who might be in prison for a non-violent drug crime, or an economic crime like writing bad checks. And I think attempting rehabilitation of certain criminals is waste of time and money.

You want to end all executions in this country, then get a Constitutional Amendment passed, or persuade SCOTUS to declare in Unconstitutional.

A better alternative to putting and end to it might be to REQUIRE the President to sign EVERY death warrant.

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. So being "for" the death penalty means being "for" every death sentence handed down?

Horrible, horrible logic. I have been told repeatedly at DU that being for the death penalty in even one case makes one pro-death penalty. And, fair enough. However, to extend that to being for EVERY death sentence - regardless how dubious, doubtful, or potentially racist the trial and sentencing - is spurious at best and baldly disingenuous at worst.

To put it bluntly, yes, I think the bastards who raped, tortured, and burned alive the mother and two daughters in Connecticut, whose guilt was never in doubt due to an abundance of eyewitness and physical evidence, should be executed. I do NOT think that Troy Davis, whose "guilt" has been cast into severe doubt because of dubious and recanted eyewitness testimony and an utter lack of physical evidence, should be executed.

[trumad]

53. That is fine---that's what you think...

but---the family of the victim wants to see Davis executed and feels strongly that he's guilty.

That's what they think.

[WildEyedLiberal]

69. It's not about what I think or what they think

It's about the objective evidence. The objective evidence of Davis's "guilt" is flimsy as all hell. No society operating under the rule of law should EXECUTE a man on the basis on such weak evidence.

I've got no problem executing criminals who A)committed an especially heinous, brutal, or unconscionable crime AND B)whose guilt is incontrovertible - not just beyond a reasonable doubt. NO doubt. Davis certainly doesn't meet criteria B, not by a long shot, and not even under the US's weaker standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. There's plenty of reasonable doubt here, and when 7 of the 9 eyewitnesses who convicted him recant, it's a miscarriage of justice that he didn't get a brand new trial.

[Solly Mack]

37. 100% against.

No exceptions. No "what ifs". No "but they're bad". No "but they admit it".

Against. Period.

[pennylane100]

39. Actualy, I am ambivalent about it..

[Warpy]

40. I read somewhere that the Talmud actually did find a middle ground

that the DP was occasionally necessary, but if it was used more than once every seven (some translations say 70) years, it was tyranny.

I've only seen one possible DP case in my life, Ted Bundy, who escaped from jail more than once to continue killing. Still, I think he could have been locked away securely.

[hifiguy]

41. I am against it with one, and only one exception

and that would be war crimes/crimes against humanity. There's never any lingering doubt about who is guilty of those offenses.

[WinkyDink]

42. Really? I think "mistaken conviction" might qualify one's response here.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

43. Correct. I think it's OK as long as the evidence is irrefutable.

The case of Troy Davis is not what I would consider irrefutable.
Certainly there is some, if not considerable, doubt about the conviction.

[BlueJazz]

44. I've been guilty of purple rage when I hear about some person doing horrible..

...things to others...but...my cooler head prevails and I STILL know that I could never vote for the taking of one's
life.

In my weakness, for the moment, I may say "I'd kill that M.F." but in reality...I know I couldn't.

[Bonhomme Richard]

46. I am 100% against the death penalty in guilty cases and 100% for the

family to get a few moments in a room alone with the person.

[Speck Tater]

47. It's comforting to believe that everything is black and white, ...

and that your declaring a thing makes it true.

But, alas, it's not that simple.

[EFerrari]

57. The OP didn't claim everything was black and white.

He claimed this issue is black and white and 2/3s of the planet agrees with him.

[Speck Tater]

59. Among that 2/3s are the people who stone adulterers. nt

[EFerrari]

60. No, that's also capital punishment. nt

[Speck Tater]

65. OOPS! I got that backwards. My bad. Still doesn't make it a black and white issue. nt

[SidDithers]

48. Yup. If you're for the death penalty in certain cases...

then you're for the death penalty.

The old joke comes to mind: "We have established what you are, madam. We are now merely haggling over the price."

Sid

[DevonRex]

49. I'm against it. But there are some I don't lose any sleep over. McVeigh, for one. Nt

[Javaman]

50. +1

You mean we can't have them a mostly dead?

Miracle Max: See, there's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead. Now, mostly dead: he's slightly alive. All dead: well, with all dead, there's usually only one thing that you can do.

Inigo: What's that?

Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

[dtexdem]

51. Nope, not true: I'm 110% against it.

;-)

[alsame]

52. 100% against. Murder is murder, no matter who does it or how it's done. nt

[Blue_In_AK]

54. Count me in the 100% against,

and thank goodness I live in a no death penalty state.

[Quantess]

56. No.

[RZM]

58. Many people have no opinion on the matter

They are neither for it nor against it. I would agree that saying you are 'for it in certain circumstances' is essentially saying you are 'for it,' because it is only used in 'certain circumstances.' But plenty of people just don't care either way.

[Throd]

63. That is not true in my case.

There is apparently enough doubt in Troy Davis' case to warrant a stay of execution.

I don't have any problem with frying some crazy bastard who says "Yeah, I killed them, and I'd do it again if I could".

[marmar]

64. 100 percent against, without equivocations.

nt

[Zax2me]

66. 100 percent for, without equivocations.

n/t

[Logical]

70. Really. Then not a real liberal.

[marmar]

76. selfdelete

[Puregonzo1188]

68. Thank you! The people with exception don't seem to realize they can't pick and chose between their

fantasy and a world in which innocent men like Troy Davis are murdered, along with a whole host of other people who probably are guilty of a crime, but they would not be considered one of the "the worst of the worst" which capital punishment is supposedly for.

People need to stop talking about Ted Bundy, or Eichman, or some stupid shit they saw on CSI and look at who is on death row, who dies, and realize that their deranged fantasies causes people to be murdered.

I've been following the Troy Davis case for so many years now, and so many other cases of people on death row who just don't belong there (not that anyone does, but I think my point is clear nonetheless) and I've just had it with the people who are still trying to enter in stories or what-ifs about warlocks who eat children into the discourse about Davis. Seriously, you'd think they'd have learned a real hard lesson by what's about to take place and what just shut the fuck up before they could cause any damage. Then again arrogance tends to be a trait of people who believe they have should have the right to decide who lives and who dies.

[RebelOne]

71. I an 100% for the death penalty, but only if the defendant

is found 100% guilty. For example, the heinous crime, such as the two sickos who killed the doctor's family and burned his house down. Those two guys should be drawn and quartered.

[IcyPeas]

72. 99.9 against

when you see stories of infants or children being raped, gang raped, tortured, buried alive, etc. that's when I sway toward death. I know it is not a deterrent or anything but I don't think these monsters deserve to live.

And quick too, none of these never ending appeals.

Troy Davis 100% shouldn't be put to death - this is an abomination.

[nadine_mn]

73. Maybe its the lawyer in me - but I am never 100% for or against anything

If someone killed someone I loved I would be hard pressed to not want to pull the switch.

As a policy I think its wrong, it should unconstitutional.

But personally - I don't know - if someone killed my husband or a family member, I would be in the front row.

[Capitalocracy]

75. Well, you are either 100% alive or 100% dead

so that kind of makes sense

[pipi_k]

77. It's not that easy....

I don't like the DP.

But there's a part of me that wants revenge...and yes, I realize that's all it is...if the crime is heinous enough.

Killers and abusers of the weak and powerless, including animals. I don't like to admit it, but I often feel like I could kill someone with my own hands who willfully hurts or kills an animal.

People who burn little children with lit cigarettes. People who lock kids up and torture and starve them to death. Child rapists. Child killers.

For these people I have a really hard time thinking "Oh, but the death penalty is SO wrong!!"

I don't like having mixed feelings, and I never asked for the curse of having them in the first place.

:(

[CRK7376]

78. I disagree.

For the most part I don't like/support the death penalty. Other cases I strongly support it. I don't think GA was correct in executing T Davis. I do think TX was correct in killing the racist punk that drug a man to his death due to skin color. I think the home invasion murderers of the Doc family in NH(?) deserve to die. Tough call to make on death penalty. It obviously is not a deterent. People don't stop and think, the state or govn will execute me if i commit this crime...Life in prison, no parole, no soft cushy life in jail...Lots of questions for me still remain.