Jesus Christ was ...

[aggiesal]

1) A peaceful radical
2) Non-violent revolutionary
3) Hung out with lepers, hookers and crooks
4) Never spoke English
5) Wasn't American
6) Anti-Capitalism
7) Anti-Death penalty
8) Anti-Public prayer (from Matthew 6:5)
9) Never anti-gay
10) Never mentioned abortion
11) Long haired
12) Brown skinned
13) Homeless
14) and a Middle Eastern Jew.

Funny yet accurate stuff from John Fugelsang!

[Rabblevox]

1. Nice! Very nice. But do you have a link to the original? /nt

[aggiesal]

8. Transcribed from the Randi Rhodes Show ...

You may be able to get it from a podcast, or
if the show is transcribed in full.

[truebrit71]

2. That's awesome...

...

[masmdu]

3. fictitious

[handmade34]

7. unh uh

only his story is fictitious

[dawg]

12. Was Mohammed fictitious?

Buddha?
Confucius?

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Mohammed probably not. Buddha maybe.

Confucious, unknown, Lao Tzu almost definitely.

(But, then, Lao Tzu would warn you against putting too much stock in the notion of literal "existence" in the first place)

Hate to break it to you, but "Jesus" almost certainly was a made-up entity with no objective historical existence. There is ZERO corroborating evidence for his existence outside of the Bible, his myth is a pretty obvious mishmash cobbled together from previous "mystery cult" personal divinities such as Mithras. Evidence points to early Christianity dealing almost entirely with a savior in the spiritual realm, who only later was given an actual, objective, historical existence- retroactively.

[dawg]

26. I disagree.

No historical figure from that far back has an overwhelming amount of documentary evidence remaining to attest to their existence. But people did, in fact, exist.

Disregarding my personal faith for the moment, I nonetheless think it's highly likely that an indivudual known as Yeshua ben Yosef did exist, did serve as a spiritual leader in Palestine, and was likely put to death for his teachings.

Why would anyone invent a religion out of whole cloth when they could base it instead on an actual historical figure? It doesn't make sense.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. No historical figure? How about Julius Caesar? Cleopatra? Herod? Not to mention

a horde of minor non-leader figures. The Romans were meticulous record keepers, and the Jews of Judea kept records, too.

None of them independently recorded the alleged rabble-rousing rabbi from Galilee, or his death sentence.


"Why would anyone invent a religion out of whole cloth when they could base it instead on an actual historical figure? It doesn't make sense."

Because I don't think religions are so much "invented" (barring, perhaps, L. Ron Hubbard and maybe Joseph Smith) as they tend to develop organically. I think what we now consider "Christianity" started as one or two movements that morphed into something else, with "Jesus" being given an objective historical existence somewhere around 100-200 CE.

These guys make a pretty solid case:

http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

[dawg]

35. There are lots of historical figures we have surprisingly little evidence for.

But that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

I think it's incredibly likely that Jesus existed, divine or not.

But things like this are fun to speculate about.


From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_christ#Existence_of_Jesus

"Separate non-Christian sources used to establish the historical existence of Jesus include the works of first century Roman historians Flavius Josephus and Tacitus.<338><339> Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman has stated that few have doubted the genuineness of Josephus' reference...

Karl Rahner has observed that "in antiquity, even the most bitter enemies of Christianity never expressed doubts about the existence of Jesus."<107> The Cambridge companion to Jesus states that the "farfetched theories that Jesus' existence was a Christian invention are highly implausible."<343>"

[Warren DeMontague]

44. it doesn't mean they DID exist, either.

I mean, yes, Bible scholars are sort of unanimous that "Jesus" was real, because after all, "Jesus" is about half of their material.

[hifiguy]

27. AFAIK all were real people

as is pretty well attested to in the historical records. I also think it is highly likely that Jesus, or someone very much like Jesus, was a historical human being. Can't buy in to the divinity stuff, though.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. "pretty well attested to in the historical records."

Please cite historical records attesting to the existence of Jesus outside the Bible.

[hifiguy]

34. There was a historian,

Josephus I believe, who mentioned the execution of a "Jesus" and there were a couple of other historical accounts. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus (quoting original sources)

These are not definitely not conclusive proof, but as far more contemporaneous accounts than anything contained in the bible, they are not to be tossed aside without some consideration.

Not that it makes a lot of difference to this atheist, but I am reasonably certain that, as a matter of history, there was a living person who was if not Jesus, was the basis for the stories. Anyway, I don't have a dog in this fight so the ultimate answer doesn't much matter to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. The Josephus "evidence" is all there is, and is widely considered a forgery.

I used to think as you do; assuming "Jesus" was based on an actual guy, who was a rabbi and religious leader, etc.

This book makes a solid case otherwise:

http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

When it's looked at closely, a lot of the story- the story that includes "Jesus" having an objective historical existence- falls apart. It's worth remembering that early Christianity came about at a time when these mystery cults (like that of Mithras) were popular and had been around for a while... and much of the objective story of Jesus "the person" seems to have been borrowed from those.

[hifiguy]

46. Interesting.

I will have to check that out. Thanks! :hi:

That elements of all of the Abrahamic religions were pried up and frankly stolen from the monotheism of the Pharoah Akhnaten is unquestionable. There are parts of the old testament that overlap virtually word-for-word with Akhenaten's known writings as preserved in tombs, particularly his "Hymn to the Aten." The universality of flood myths is well known, and it is clear that the old testament is nothing more than a cobbled-together collection of early Iron Age middle-eastern myths (Mithras, Osiris, Baal, et al). Given its patchwork history, the dates at which the "gospels" were written and the inclusion of something as psychedelically inspired as the "Revelation" there is good reason to think that the new testament is just as much of a hodgepodge selected to provide the best stories for use as propaganda.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. It's fascinating stuff.

And I think it's important for people to remember, we're talking -at best- about events 2000 years ago or more. To say "he definitely did exist" or "he definitely didn't exist" is way beyond the scope of a reasonably educated hypothesis. We just don't know, and barring unimpeachable corroborating evidence we haven't seen yet, we won't know.

[Mimosa]

47. Do you think Muhammed didn't exist either?

Christians AND Muslims would disagree with your allegations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

[Warren DeMontague]

49. No, I think the historical evidence for Mohammed is stronger.

Doesn't mean he levitated out of Jerusalem, but I think he was a real guy.

And I'm sorry if people get all freaked out and flappy-armed when their special magic ideas get challenged, but putting aside the inevitable special pleading, it's like anything else. Show me the evidence.

Just because an idea is upsetting to some people, or angers them even, doesn't mean it isn't true.

[hifiguy]

52. The evidence for an actual Mohammed is definitely stronger

than that for an actual Jesus. There are contemporaneous accounts of his being a military leader quite apart from the Qu'ran and some reasonably solid evidence that he married several times and fathered a number of children. Mind you, I read that in Richard Dawkins. ;)

I also think it is far more likely than not that the Buddha was an actual human being.

[AnOhioan]

41. +1

[SidDithers]

43. Absolutely!...

Well said :thumbsup:

Sid

[donheld]

55. Jesus is not fictitious

I've met several

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. "Will the real Jesus please ascend."

[dtexdem]

5. a man, an honest working man, a carpenter true and brave.

He told all the rich to give their money to the poor, so they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

Good on you, Woody.

[eridani]

6. "Lepers" not "leapers" sez your friendly neighborhood grammar Nazi

K&R

Oh, and not "anti-capitalism." No such thing until the 17th century. Anti-imperialist? For sure!.

[aggiesal]

10. oops typo. Good catch. I'll see if I can correct it. n/t

[dawg]

11. No.

He hung out with people who leaped, too. Ever heard of "Jumpin" Jehosophat?

[Gregorian]

14. Spang!

I'm not sure if spang is universally understood. Please ask for a definition, if needed.

:)

[dawg]

9. I've heard some white people take offense at paintings that show Jesus as black.

They seem utterly blind to the fact that their idealized version of him distorts his likely appearance just as much.

Personally, I think it's great that people want Jesus to look like them. Now, if only they could all try to make *themselves* more like Jesus.

[Scuba]

15. He had blue eyes, and long blond hair and beard....

...I know 'cause his picture was hung in our church.


BTW, my community was made up largely of Scandanavians.

[aggiesal]

22. They sell autographed

high school graduation pictures of Jesus at the Vatican.

At least that's what Father Guido Sarducci said.

[Scuba]

28. Ha!

[Bandit]

13. Didn't he also keep a coral filled with dinosaurs for his transportation?

If he is God he could look any damn way he pleased, wouldn't you think?

[Warren DeMontague]

17. pretend.

Sorry to burst any bubbles.

[demmiblue]

18. A mechanic... he built my hot rod.

[dawg]

29. A karma mechanic,

with overall charms.

[Fumesucker]

19. Not at all fond of hypocrites..

However he was fond of pointing out that the most openly devout are the biggest hypocrites..

[Rex]

20. JC was the worlds first well known liberal.

He loved people, just the oppostite of what his supposed RWing followers are like - they HATE people and would cheer on the death of a poor person.

[alfredo]

21. You might like this post on "Christian" Capitalist

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/post/its-not-class-warfare-its-christianity/2011/09/19/gIQAkoMxfK_blog.html


Let me be clear as I can be. We need to understand the so-called “Christian” underpinnings of the anti-tax, anti-government, anti-the-poor, “let him die” approach to economics and public policy today as completely un-Christian, as well as un-American. What we need to do is re-establish our national values of fairness, equality and opportunity for all, values that I believe are actually the core of the Christian faith, (as well as of other religious traditions and of humanist values).

[no_hypocrisy]

23. Jesus Christ was a humanist.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. 15) A Figment

[tblue]

25. He was also a victim of Capital Punishment!!!

Do those clods in those debate audiences not realize, in another time and another place, they'd want His blood, too?

[Blue_Tires]

30. He was also railroaded in a kangaroo court and sentenced to death

sound familiar??

[JuniperLea]

33. The Ecclesiastical Mook!

I would love to pick his brain! He's just brilliant.

[RebelOne]

39. Mook? Never heard of a Mook.

[JuniperLea]

53. That's what Stephanie Miller calls her sidekicks...

Fridays with Fugelsang is a must! Hal Sparks rocks too. Her original Mooks are the best... "Voice Deity" Jim Ward and producer Chris Lavoie. Love them lots!

[LeftinOH]

36. Jesus sold me a used car, cheap! See this:

[dawg]

48. Jesus also tried to sell me a car.

Probably a different Jesus, though. This one worked at a Honda dealership.

[AngryOldDem]

37. That sound you hear is the heads of fundies exploding.

I've always said that if Christ were to return today, he'd be crucified again by those who claim to love Him the most.

[William769]

38. K&R.

[Nye Bevan]

40. And when the booze ran out at a wedding, He used His almighty powers to turn water into wine.

Now *that's* cool.

[SidDithers]

45. the one and only true resident of Graceland...

Sid

[JuniperLea]

54. I'd like to slip that into a deck of Tarot cards!

Hilarious...

[Wait Wut]

51. YOU LIE!!!

The pamphlet I got last week clearly shows Jesus in the loving embrace of John the Baptist, and both had BLUE eyes and sandy hair!!! They also had obviously European...er...American features!


Why do you hate baby Jesus?

[PurityOfEssence]

56. A backwoods cult leader who would have lived to a ripe old age if he hadn't confronted Religion Inc.

Once he fucked with the money-changers, he was dead in two days.

It's okay to have a "way" and have followers, and this can be done in a truly honorable way, but when one messes with the hustle of BIG RELIGION, the hammer comes down.

Very simple.

[PurityOfEssence]

57. What about divorce?

Just askin'...

[Fire Walk With Me]

58. This is not the symbol Republicans are searching for. Move along...

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. Stopping at Olive Garden for lunch on his way to Walmart in his Hummer.

[guitar man]

60. Jesus Christ was...

My brother, I was goddammit. Dad named us. It was always "Jesus Christ , can't you put the fucking tools away when you're done with them?!!" and "Goddamit, did you break this fucking thing?!!"

We never did figure out who "son of a beeetch!!" was. Seems it was either one or both of us, it was interchangeable . :spray:

[Zax2me]

61. He is also the son of God, prayed to by millions each Sunday.

Millions of Christians...

[upi402]

62. If he came back

there'd be some torn-ass teabagers floating in the bay.