The Davis execution raises questions about the death penalty for some. Not for me.

[Jackpine Radical]

I long ago decided that the question is not whether or not a given offender "deserves" to be put to death, but how much harm is done to society by providing this example of responding to horrendous violence with more violence. In the last analysis, society is really just a large group of people who have assented to playing out their lives within a set of mutually agreed-upon rules. While any society thus construed has a right to protect itself from outlaws, and perhaps to punish its transgressive members, I don't think that the common mass has any more right to kill someone than any individual member does. Just as a person has the right to kill in self-defense, so does a society--BUT--it is not necessary for a modern society to kill an already incarcerated individual in order to protect itself. Societies that perpetrate violence also model violence, just as a parent who spanks a child to punish aggressive behavior models aggression for the child.

[mike_c]

1. first rec-- excellent post!

eom

[EFerrari]

2. 2nd rec.

Once killing is on the table as an option, our whole society is brutalized, and it's a short trip from there to killing someone like Davis whose guilt is in question. There is no "equitable" application of a death penalty because that's not how human societies work.

[qb]

5. K&R I am opposed to the death penalty, but your "equitable" application statement

suggests a thought experiment:
What if the death penalty could only be used on those convicted of 1st degree murder
and... it is the mandatory sentence for 1st degree murder?
That would make it somewhat more equitable, but I suspect affluent and white defendants would find their crimes bumped down to 2nd or 3rd degree murder a lot more often than anyone else.
Not to mention, misconduct & errors would still result in the murder of innocents.

[EFerrari]

7. Precisely. n/t

[shireen]

3. nicely said.

:applause:

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Moral and ethical cost to...society.

[MineralMan]

6. Not for me, either.

There has never been any question for me. There is no benefit from capital punishment. There is only the debasement of our society.

[SlimJimmy]

15. I concur. This is nothing gained in the act. Life imprisonment without parole

is enough of a deterrent.

[truckin]

8. Agree 100%. Well said. nt

[RockaFowler]

9. I agree whole-heartedly

:hug:

[FiveGoodMen]

10. Agreed.

:fistbump:

[Leopolds Ghost]

11. It's the Anglo-Saxon common law tradition. Blood for blood... no wait.

Actually, the Anglo-Saxon tradition is wrongful death suit, aka weregild. Straight outta the 9th century. So much for capital punishment.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Yes. Weregeld and maybe outlawing--i.e. putting them beyond the pale

of the law. An outlawed person could be legally killed by anyone who wanted to. Not only the northern Germanic tribes, but many others, including American Indian tribes, has a system like this.

As a side note, the reason Erik the Red went to Iceland was because h had been outlawed in Norway for murder.

[louslobbs]

12. 26th rec. and Kicked

Lou

[sabrina 1]

13. Excellent post, well said.

:kick:

[Hosnon]

14. To me, the strongest argument is the lack of certainty + finality issue.

Truth is not the only goal of the judicial system. Resolution of conflicts and judicial economy are also major goals. But even if truth were the only goal, there are limits to our knowledge, i.e, undeniable a posteriori knowledge is not possible.

For those reasons and because death is not something that can be taken back, I do not support the death penalty. Put them in a room for 23 hours a day for the rest of their natural lives.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. Why subject anyone to that kind of isolation?

It only makes them crazier, makes us a little more unnecessarily brutal, and does nothing to enhance the safety of society. Certainly the likelihood of someone committing a crime like murder is quite unrelated to the barbarity of the punishment.

[Hosnon]

17. Because I think punishment is a valid goal of the criminal justice system.

Along with specific and general deterrence. The efficacy of specific deterrence via incarceration is undeniable. As for general deterrence, I question it with regard to crimes of passion, but believe there is a general deterrent effect with regard to premeditated murders.

And spending your days in isolation is a small price to pay for willfully taking the life of another human being.

ETA: It doesn't bother me that it wouldn't rehabilitate the prisoner. S/he is in there for life (actual life).

[EFerrari]

28. Long term solitary confinement has zero benefit to our society

and it is a human rights violation.

When you have someone in custody, they are already deterred from a repeat offense. Punishment above that is basically sadism, not anything else.

[Hosnon]

31. Source?

For your claim it is a human rights violation.

In my opinion it is not. And you may call it sadism, but I think it is more than fair to the murderer in lieu of execution.

[EFerrari]

36. Here you go:

Solitary Confinement and Mental Illness in U.S. Prisons: A Challenge for Medical Ethics
Volume 38, Number 1, 2010
by

Jeffrey L. Metzner, MD, and Jamie Fellner, Esq
Published in:
The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law
March 1, 2010


International treaty bodies and human rights experts, including the Human Rights Committee,<23> the Committee against Torture,<24>,<25> and the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture,<26> have concluded that solitary confinement may amount to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment in violation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights<27> and the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment or Punishment.<28> They have specifically criticized supermax confinement in the United States because of the mental suffering it inflicts.<29>,<30> Whatever one's views on supermax confinement in general, human rights experts agree that its use for inmates with serious mental illness violates their human rights.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/03/22/solitary-confinement-and-mental-illness-us-prisons

There are a number of studies that show solitary confinement turns your brain into mush. There is nothing "fair" about it.


Annals of Human Rights
Hellhole
The United States holds tens of thousands of inmates in long-term solitary confinement. Is this torture?
by Atul Gawande March 30, 2009

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande#ixzz1YtUBsU00

[Hosnon]

37. Thanks for the info. However, that expresses opinion as well, albeit professional ones.

There doesn't appear to be any specific treaty or judicial determination that it is a human rights violation.

[EFerrari]

38. The Geneva Convention against torture, also the UN convention we signed onto.

On p. 2 of this pdf, there is a notation that says the Committee against torture has recommended that solitary be abolished because of its potential to harm prisoners mentally and physically.

http://solitarywatch.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/fact-sheet-solitary-confinement-and-the-law1.pdf

I started reading about this when Brad Manning was being held in solitary. Solitary confinement can give you permanent brain damage, something I didn't know before my reading.

[Hosnon]

41. It seems that whether it is a human rights violation is still in dispute.

And while the Committee Against Torture has recommended its abolition, the U.N. (or any other binding international authority) has not answered the question definitely.

So, as a legal matter, it is presently not a human rights violation. And, personally, I don't think it is; it is more than fair to someone who has taken the life of another human being.

[immoderate]

19. Uh-huh! It's wrong to kill! Ritualizing it only makes it worse.

--imm

[Jackpine Radical]

20. There's no more cold-blooded type of killing than an execution.

[immoderate]

24. Maximum Pre-meditation. And the there are "citizens" who will be "inspired"...

--imm

[femmedem]

21. I always love your posts

and this is one of your best.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Exactly...when it comes to the core value, you nail it here

The difficulty is in seeing the society as a group NOT ONLY with agreed upon rules, but with agreed upon rules that can and must be amended. The struggle, as always, is between the constituted rule and the constituting power of the multitude.

[Uncle Joe]

23. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Jackpine Radical.

[joeybee12]

25. Agree...knr

[Mnemosyne]

26. Hear, hear! And congrats, JackPine,

not one deleted message in your thread! :)

[LatteLibertine]

27. Generally speaking

I don't believe the state should have the power to execute citizens.

Sometimes the system is inept and/or >corrupt<. In addition, it often has a bias against poor people and minorities.

I'm not willing to accept sometimes the innocent will be executed in order to get the guilty.

[spanone]

29. k&r

[Chorophyll]

30. Rec. nt

[flvegan]

32. It's revenge.

That's it, that's all. Human emotion trumps life.

[Gregorian]

33. I'd like to pose a thought.

I don't know how to put it without sounding foolish. Because most people are bound by a self restriction to never go beyond or our outside of certain boundaries.

People are not stationary objects. They are dynamic. A murderer can become good. I think the difference between a murderer and someone who we call normal can be so small it's almost imperceptible. Perhaps the difference is environmental. So many things happen during pregnancy that could have an effect on a person.


I do believe that part of the punitive process is for the benefit of the defendant's family.

Is Mumia a danger? Was Troy a danger? Even if they did murder, it's pretty clear.

I can't do this subject justice. I'm sorry. It's like my tongue/brain is tied. It is so clear to me. Yet I cannot express it in a way that won't provoke misunderstanding. Even if I could explain, it ultimately begs the question of what to do with these people. There is no place for punishment. That is just as damaging as the crime. The only thing that will help is love. But I suppose I'm wasting my time typing this since that is about as far off the radar screen as one can be on this planet. It is the rare exception that the victim forgives. Or that people can be helped to recover from their problems.

As a side note, I'm personally faced with a situation right now where a murderer is running around in my "backyard" with a high powered rifle. I heard there were something like 50 cop cars on a part of my property this week. This man is insane. He sees and hears things. He's been pursued for four weeks by teams of dogs and police. This man is one person who may not ever be a normal functioning human. And even in this case, why would we punish?

[KG]

35. like you, i've come to believe there must be a better way than brutal incarcerations or CP

i've not come up with an answer, but it seems to be it time for civilizations to try to do and be better...

[G_j]

34. K&R

:applause:

[LWolf]

39. Exactly. nt

[malaise]

40. Excellent thread

Don't know how I missed it.