I am not "middle class".

[Beam Me Up]

I see people on this board lamenting the threat to "the middle class".

Well, what about the working class?

I'm not middle class, I'm working class. I WORK for a living. I have all my life and will for the rest of my life. And at the rate things are going I'll be working even after my so called "retirement" because so called "social security" won't provide enough money for me to live on without continuing to work and earn.

I know I'm FAR from unique.

The war of the classes is NOT between the "wealthy" and the genuine "middle" class (who look wealthy from my pov)...

It is between the wealthy elite and the working class. Always has been, always will be.

EOM

[valerief]

1. Yep. The Haves vs. Have Nots. The Independently Wealthy vs. Potentially/Currently Homeless.

Those are the two sides.

[fasttense]

64. I like to contrast the "working" and the "idle" classes.

This is the way I usually put it. Austerity for the working class and luxury for the idle rich.

[seabeyond]

2. i was middle class... rapidly changing. i see no reason why middle and working class

should not battle together. if you think the middle class is not under attack, too, you are just wrong. the middle class become the working class, and the working class become the poor. yea....

doesnt work for me.

[Beam Me Up]

4. what I'm saying is...

I think there is confusion on this board about what constitutes "the middle class". A lot of working class people identify as "middle class" when, in fact, they're not. I *wish* I were "middle class".

Can't give and exact figure but I'd say to be "middle class" in this day and age, the personal/family income would have to be over six figures at this point.

If one is unemployed, underemployed or employed and living paycheck to paycheck, have no or insufficient health insurance, so on and so forth, one is NOT "middle class".

[seabeyond]

15. i agree, totally. and it wasnt so long ago npr adn other media... not msm... was addressing this

very thing. saying a lot of people see themselves as middle class and they are not.

i dont shun reality and truth. i dont see it as hurtful. and i dont see it an insult to be working class. nor do i see it an insult or compliment to be middle class. just a cold, hard, dry fact of reality to give us a definition, description of what is happening in groups.

[Ship of Fools]

45. I'm in the same boat as you ...

Working class moving toward working poor. Personally, I think this whole clusterfuck of an argument would be much clearer and easier to make if the Idiocrats (teabaggers) understood that they are no longer the *working class* -- they are fast becoming the working poor and will be left out of the argument all together.

Thanks for making it clearer.

[sad sally]

47. Like when the President claims to take up "their" battle?

“You know what? If asking a billionaire to pay the same rate as a plumber or a teacher makes me a warrior for the middle class, I wear that charge as a badge of honor,” he continued. “I wear it as a badge of honor, because the only class warfare I’ve seen is the battle that’s been waged against middle-class folks in this country for a decade now.”

[Angry Dragon]

80. Some say that middle class is the 30-70% of households

in 2009 that would be over $35,000-$95,000

[brewens]

8. Exactly but you have to convince a lot of the middle class that.

They are being manipulated by fear to side with their enemies. If they bust the working class down far enough, why do they have to be good to their lackeys? Are they going to come through with their nice retirement plans as promised? I think the wealthy would rather have that money than pay it out to older people that have been replaced.

[seabeyond]

17. it goes much deeper with the middle class and so many different directions.

i do not get why people dont get it. being awfully fiscal and observing the now and effect of the future in my own life... it is pretty damn clear. i have 5, 6, 7 different directions that has allowed my income to be reduced by 40%. i may have not have been living beyond my means for a very long period of time, but with all these factors, it can be said today. and i have made no changes.

[OHdem10]

11. This is why it is important to always include the word "WORKING"

Those making 75K to 250 K are considered Middle Class.

The Republicans look out for this group with a passion
Especially white males.

Now, did you see the GOP Debate. Romney was extremely
obvious in saying he was going to be pushing Middle Class
Issues. Brett Bair asked him specifically what income
does he consider Middle Class? Romney evaded it skillfully.

For eons Republicans have touted their protection of Middle
Class. Expertly they make it sound as if they are looking
out for good old Lunch Bucket Joe. Working Class including
Working Poor up to around high 60K annually.

The sad truth is both Parties often are concerned the Middle
Class described as about 75K to 250,000K annually.

Including WORKING CLASS is important.

[seabeyond]

18. i do not believe that they are at all looking out for the middle class.

everything i see them promoting hurts the middle class. hence, my comment we are in it together. be it middle class or working class.

[OHdem10]

22. What have they done to hurt the 75K to 250K Earners. Middle Class

[seabeyond]

23. pay is stagnant. or lowered. interest on cd so very low a nothing. cost on all goods have risen

especially. college increase to absurd levels. sending the corps out of country effects everyone. no taxes on the rich effects everyone. education, infrastructure, public services effect everyone. increases in medical and insurance effects all of us. letting go of retirement packages. the banking/wallstreet crisis effecting retirement.

there is more, i am not totally informed and articulate but i am sure others can help you out.

[NutmegYankee]

25. Quite a bit.

Crashes of markets destroying retirements, low interest rates that destroy the growth of savings accounts, stagnant pay along with high inflation that is choking out the ability to maintain the same lifestyle.

They get nickle and dimed like the rest of us.

[seabeyond]

26. another is i use to have money that i could buy more, or hire people. i no longer do that

so less money going into stimulating the economy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. The working class are 1 paycheck away from living on the street.

The middle class are 3 paychecks away from living on the street.

The difference is negligible.

[Beam Me Up]

5. I agree with part one but not part two of what your'e saying.

The "middle class" is more economically secure than three paychecks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

[JVS]

61. I make less than the $25K mentioned as the lower bound but I've always saved...

and could go a year without work.

I'm not middle class.

[ElboRuum]

29. +1000 n/t

[MADem]

35. I was going to say six paychecks, but the sentiment is the same. NT

[NutmegYankee]

6. Middle class is also working class.

It's just working class folks who have a slight amount of financial security, I.E. Not paycheck to paycheck. That said, one major illness or the loss of a job for an extended time would take them right out of it.

[asjr]

7. We all get mired in "class." It is human class.

Middle and working class are the same thing. We have worked for our money. I do not call those who are impoverished "low" class. If we are wealthy I suppose it is called "high" class. I live on social security after a long haul working. It is only enough to keep me going but no one can call me "low" class. Class is a word that I am going to jettison because it superficially divides people.

[Beam Me Up]

12. yeah, language sux because it differentiates one thing from another

i'm not white. i'm not male. i'm not gay or bald. i'm not poor or wealthy or middle class or atheist or democrat or progressive.

:eyes:

[wurzel]

9. The "Middle Class" label was a total trap!

The "Middle Class" in most countries is anti-union and votes conservative. It identifies with the rich and powerful. We never were "Middle Class". What we were was the most affluent Working Class the world had ever seen. And in accepting both the label and attitudes of a Middle Class we lost everything. And we won't recognize and act in our true economic interest until we accept your attitude.

[Beam Me Up]

10. ^ ^ ^ What you said. +1,000 :) n/t

[leftstreet]

30. +1

[TBF]

37. Yup. There are owners and there are workers.

The rest is just advertising slogans.

[SOS]

73. Exactly

Capital and labor.
The only two classes.
As you said, all the other divisions are artificial.

[jannyk]

48. +1

[bread_and_roses]

72. + many (n/t)

[FarCenter]

13. Anyone who works for an hourly wage, fills out a time sheet, uses a time clock is not middle class

Middle class people are small business owners, professionals like doctors/dentists with a practice, salaried managers and professionals working in organizations, etc.

[NutmegYankee]

14. Is an Engineer middle class?

[FarCenter]

21. It would depend on the situation

Generally not if they are working for a business owner or manager in a non-supervisory capacity.

Yes if they are a consulting engineer working on a professional contract, i.e. not just the generic, I'll do what you say contract. Yes if they own an engineering firm or other business, or work as a salaried manager in such a firm and have a say in their work, hours, conditions of employment.

[NutmegYankee]

24. Interesting definition.

My supervisor makes only about $10K more and basically lives a similar lifestyle as me. Neither him nor myself have any illusions that the rich are not fucking us over and committing a class genocide against the middle class/working class. I do consider myself middle class (as a subset of working class), though I'm also frugal and tend to not live as lavish a lifestyle as many.

I think we are debating definitions that are useless. Middle Class is a concept and a feeling of economic security. No matter what, we are all getting hosed by the elite.

[FarCenter]

27. First level supervisors are not really middle-class jobs in many cases

They are more like foremen in a factory. They have some resposibilites for managing in detail the work of their subordinates, many times a heavy load of peer relationships with other groups on the same project, and the need to keep their bosses happy. It's a pretty shitty job for $10 K more.

Living the life style of the next level down is a very practical thing to do. Too many people get into trouble living the "aspriational" life style of the next level up.

[NutmegYankee]

43. I still think your are off on this debate.

Middle Class is a feeling of slight economic security. It really doesn't matter either way, but I do think of myself as middle class. I think a better use of our efforts would be on channeling those who think of themselves as middle class to realize they are under attack by the elite rather than trying to convince them that they aren't middle class. At the end of the day, the people smashing down the poor are punching me in the face as well.

[kestrel91316]

31. I guess that makes me middle class........

:rofl:

:cry:

Middle class, with a near-poverty level income.........

[blindpig]

65. What many in the true middle class cannot seem to understand....

is that their position is so precarious. Capital, searching for new profits, takes one after the other profession and converts it to just another wage slave gig, though at a better wage than the worst. Small businesses and practices are objects of acquisition or to be steam rolled.

From the Communist Manifesto:

The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honoured and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage labourers.

[Abin Sur]

33. Disagree. I use a time clock, make an hourly wage, and I'm middle class.

I make about 55k a year, have a couple hundred thousand in assets and no debts. I take one or two international vacations every year, live in a nice home in the mountains west of Denver, drive nice cars, and plan to retire in 7 to 10 years.

How is that not middle class?

[pipi_k]

16. I see people refer to the "haves" and the "have nots" a lot and...

can't help but wonder what the parameters are for being either a "have" or a "have not"...

[Golden Raisin]

19. Unless you are wealthy

in the U.S.A. today the drop to really scary and tenuous economic circumstances can be sudden and precipitous: only a major illness or loss of job in this terribly weak economy away. "Middle" and "working" class alike can all too easily get rapidly sucked down that whirlpool, and we have Republicans working 24/7 to weaken, emasculate and abolish any and all social safety programs (i.e. Social Security).

[Tsiyu]

20. It's been fun

over the years watching DU face reality. At one time, there were many on this site who couldn't imagine losing their homes, jobs, retirement funds. If you told them this was coming, because as a poor person you could see the writing on the wall, they scoffed at you, told you you were crazy.

You may be working class. It's dawning on many of you now. It dawned on the disabled, the sick, the very young and the very old a LONG time ago that this society was kicking them in the teeth so the rich could get richer. Nobody listened. The middle class was viewed - and viewed themselves - as this monolithic mass of successful, intelligent, secure peeps who did not associate with the poor unless they had to, and the middle class swallowed whole the notion that poor people deserved what they got and didn't need any special political attention.

But what's crazy is, the number of poor in this nation continues to grow. Yet no politician courts the poor. None. Nada.

Recently, in my state and others, they have passed laws making it harder and harder for the poor to vote. Sure, I realize Johnny Got-A-Job cannot fathom why in fucking hell a person wouldn't have an extra $29.95 to order a birth certificate or pay for the transportation to get said BC, but there are actually people out there who have not even a quarter left after they eat and try to pay their bills.

NOTE TO THE IGNORANT: There actually are millions of people who don't have a red cent. They have zilch. Zippo. Some live paycheck to paycheck, often going hungry in between. Many have no paycheck. They are in a black hole, forgotten.

This reality escapes many.

"We don't need the poor vote. Who cares about the poor?"

I've become convinced everyone must become destitute in this nation before people start waking up and giving a damn about one another. Sad because this mess might have been avoided if more people had spoken out much sooner.

It's the 400 wealthy against EVERY GODDAMNED BODY.

[Beam Me Up]

34. ^ ^ ^ Thank you! n/t

[Tsiyu]

58. You're welcome

this post didn't appear in my "MyDU" so I just saw your response. Sorry so late...

:hug:

[juajen]

40. You are so very right. I applaud you. NT

[Tsiyu]

59. Thanks for the Kind words, juajen n/t

[loyalsister]

52. Not only - not courted

Actually legislated against. There are many ideas and laws with a goal of making sure poor people don't "take advantage of the system?"

[Tsiyu]

60. The poor pay more for many things in life while being viewed

as less valuable, less trustworthy, less hardworking. It's bullshit. But the "middle class" buys the spin so they can turn their heads away.

As more and more people drop into poverty, they are waking up, I hope...

[Starry Messenger]

77. This.

[ElboRuum]

28. So the middle class does not work?

Isn't it likely that the working class is, in the context of DU, the middle class as understood? No matter how much more a person may make and 'look wealthy' from your point of view, won't one of these people, even if their unemployment is more protracted than someone who makes less, one who will shortly find themselves in financial ruin without a steady job? As far as the middle class goes, working for a living is certainly necessary.

[FarCenter]

32. Not in the sense of having to go to a job

For example, someone who inheirits $10,000,000 and lives off of the investment income would be middle class and not work.

On the other hand, if they buy a business and manage it, they would still be middle class, since they are still their own boss.

A judge, appointed for life, with a salary of $150,000 / year would be middle class, because a judge is an independent professional and with a life appointment, his income is only loosely dependent on his performance of any specific task.

A division manager in a corporation is effectively lent an amount of capital and operating budget, and is fairly free to manage it provided that his profit and loss accounting gives good results to the company. His P&L results also determine his bonus, stock options, and other compensations.

[ElboRuum]

38. Well, that's the question I'm asking...

I don't see these people as middle class.

Note, the following represent only my definitions of what constitutes the classes you refer to. YMMV.

The first one, the inheritor, invests as a means of income, would definitely qualify this person as upper class, not middle class.

The second one would not likely qualify as middle class because they are their own boss, and thus are unaccountable (at least immediately) for their job to any other employee. If your destiny is your own, you aren't middle class, you are upper class.

A judge with no chance of being fired, and making 150,000 dollars a year cannot be considered middle class. Without culpability, upper class.

And the division manager, depending on his compensations, COULD be construed as middle class IF his job is contingent upon his performance. But the compensations are probably going to break that deal. Upper class.

People have called themselves middle class for years (and I think rightly so) whose continuing presence within that class requires an uninterrupted source of income. Being middle class by definition may mean that you can afford some luxury or put away some savings, but if that job ever quits on you for whatever reason, your ability to weather protracted financial strain is minimal. You, with saving, frugality, even austerity, might make it 6 months, maybe even a year, at the outside limits, but not much farther. It also likely means that you have a boss, and must perform daily, to continue to draw that paycheck. It also means that you live with the near constant low-level stress that anyone else feels when jobs become scarce.

Now, by my definition, the only distinction between my middle class and your working class is a relatively negligible time difference insofar as the funds drying up. That's my understanding if it. It is also, what I believe, most people mean when they say middle class. It's certainly what I identify with when the words are spoken/written, which is why your post drew my attention.

[NutmegYankee]

39. None of those examples are middle class. nt

[Beam Me Up]

36. I agree with what wurzel said up thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2001115&mesg_id=2001253

The point is, many who IDENTIFY as "middle class" are in fact the well paid working class. The genuine "middle class" is quite wealthy by working class standards. And yet, even they are not the "elite" wealthy.

Obviously there is a lot of confusion about the meaning of "middle class" in America: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

The wealthy WANT the working class to identify as "middle class" -- this class confusion is an important part of THEIR class warfare agenda.

[LWolf]

41. I was born part of the working poor.

I'm the only child of a single working parent. She graduated from high school, got a job, and is still working at 72. My father was an 8th grade dropout. He didn't raise me, and I didn't really know him, but he supported his other family as a truck driver until his death at the age of 40.

I am the first person on either side of my family to get a college degree. My mom went back to community college and got her AA when I graduated from high school and moved out. I worked, raised kids, and put myself through school. One of my sons completed his BA and is currently pursuing an MA.

While my income went up when I got my degree and teaching license, I don't really consider myself middle class. Teachers don't make that much. Considering that I cashed in my retirement set aside at that point to pay the bills when I had to quit my job to do student teaching; that it took me until age 45 to finish paying off student loans; considering that I have NEVER had any safety net of family who could step in and help out behind me, and still don't; considering that I invested every resource I had in saving my grandson's life, and find myself, at age 51, barely scraping by, with no savings, with little hope that SS and state retirement will be there for me when I need it...

I still don't consider myself "middle class."

[saras]

42. You got it. The middle class are the ones who RUN things for the UPPER class's benefit.

If you're working, and not just manipulating others, and if the product of your work is, well, product, rather than control - you're working class, and your interests are not those of the managing and controlling classes.

[seabeyond]

44. mmmm. so when hubby hired a non degreed, unexperienced divorced mom

as a secretary and gave her pay at 30k for a living wage, he is your enemy? and when he continued to pay for increases in health insurance because he thought he owed the employees, he is your enemy. and when that same woman had 5 perscriptions and surgeries and she continued to get a wage he is the enemy. and when she was married and her hubby unemployeed, yet she had to take off work for sick kids, he is the enemy.

when he works 80 hour weeks and doesnt take pay so he can make payroll, he is the enemy?

good to know who your enemy is.

he should have just said.... fuck you, to employees, per your post.

[Beam Me Up]

53. No, no, no. You misunderstand.

You husband is himself working class. He may identify as "middle class," as, indeed, may you. I don't know. The point is, truly "middle class" are people like the Cheneys and the Bushes, who SERVE THE INTERESTS of the wealthy elite. As wealthy as the Cheney and Bush types are in our (working class) eyes, THEY are still the SERVANTS of truly elite interests. DuPonts, Morgans, etc.

[seabeyond]

56. you are making up your own definition of middle class. there is nothing about bush and cheney

that meets middle class. they may not be the riches of the rich and they certainly serve them, but you are making up an argument with made up definitions. tht doesnt work.

and the poster specifically calls out everyone that is not on their pay scale or life situation. that... is bullshit. and serves none of us.

[Beam Me Up]

67. As you can see from other responses in this thread

the phrase "middle class" has different meanings to different people. How it is commonly used, you are right. But that is precisely the problem. How it is commonly used is a deceptive tactic in class warfare. I admit to not being schooled in "class consciousness" or "class analysis" so am open to more input but so far as I understand it from that perspective, "middle class" isn't working class and it isn't the class that owns "the means of production." Several others on this thread have indicated that the phrase is deceptive, that it was applied to America's working class because they were the highest paid working class in the world with the highest standard of living. They readily accepted this concept of "being" middle class when, in fact, they weren't.

Our situation now is waking up to the reality that the "highest paid working class with the highest standard of living in history" is now under attack by the TRULY wealthy 1%. THEIR standard of living is being sustained at OUR expense... Thus this thread.

Unless we're in that top 1% (or close to) we are all working class now whether we like it or not.

[seabeyond]

68. in all my decades, no one has ever held that middle class did not work, ergo, was not a part of the

working class.

you are trying to make middle class not of the working class. not i.

the only use in these terms is the working that live paycheck to paycheck. and those that can go a period of time without a paycheck

[seabeyond]

69. dupe

[Beam Me Up]

51. ^ ^ ^ Ys, this is how I see it too.

[_ed_]

46. The term middle class is propaganda

There are people that have to worry about money; and there are people who don't. It's that simple. The term "middle class" was intended to make American workers feel superior to the "lower class." Have you noticed that everyone in America thinks they are "middle class:" when a person who earns $25K per year and a person who makes $500k per year both think they are "middle class," that's all you need to know about that term.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Here is the trick

Traditional definitions of class have zero to do with income, well except in the us.

They are based on what you do for a living. Why a doctor, regardless of how much they make, are middle class, same for teachers and lawyers...while a plumber is working class

Easier distinction in the us...blue collar vs white collar.

And this has been mostly forgotten, through skillful propaganda, in the us. We are working class...period.

[white_wolf]

50. There is no "middle class."

It is a myth. There is only the working class and the capitalist class. You either work or you own the means of production. Hell, even some doctors and lawyers are working class, because they work for large corporations. There is great inequality in the working class itself, but they are still working class.

The real middle-class, the petite bourgeoisie, the small business owners, the self-employed lawyers are a dying breed and are at risk of being drawn into the working class, because they can't compete with the real bourgeois

[loyalsister]

54. Self identification

I have had conversations with people who identify themselves as middle class who have raised concerns about the working poor getting more love from the gov't.
Others who self identify based on the fact that they own a house and drive a new car. But, still bust their butts at "professional" jobs to pay for them. Professional meaning they have to look nice at work.
I think in some cases people self identify as middle class as if it is a club.

The lines are not clear at all. Ignoring the blurring lines could prevent infighting.

[pipi_k]

70. And something I have noticed...

You wrote:

"I think in some cases people self identify as middle class as if it is a club."


I think in some cases people self-identify as "working poor" as if that were a club, also.

Like it's somehow...more honorable...to be "poor" than rich. Or even middle class. Like being middle class is akin to being scum-sucking Capitalist Pig wannabees/enablers.

I read somewhere, and I believe it's true, that even the poorest of the poor in this country are still way "richer" than some of the "richer" people in a few other countries.


I self-identify as Middle Class. I don't have millions (or even hundreds of thousands of dollars) to spend on a whim. But I'm not destitute, either. I have a home. It's not big. It's not fancy. But to someone living on the streets of a major city it would be a palace. To someone living in Rwanda, for example, it would be Paradise. To Bill Gates, it would no doubt be a hovel.

I am Middle Class, and I'm not ashamed to say it...

:shrug:

[loyalsister]

75. Everything is relative

"I read somewhere, and I believe it's true, that even the poorest of the poor in this country are still way "richer" than some of the "richer" people in a few other countries."

Several years ago, John Stossel did a story designed to elicit outrage about how not poor poor people really are. He found it offensive that a poor person could own a VCR. Apparently neglecting or not knowing that you can pick one up for a couple of bucks at a garage sale or thrift store.
Poverty vs wealth is relative. It is offensive to say because someone isn't living on the street, they are not poor. We live in a materialistic, sensation seeking, elitist country.
Poor people can sometimes get in on it to some extent while they carefully juggle which bill they can pay late or not pay at all.

[Yo_Mama]

55. Historically, in the US, almost all the middle-class have worked for a living

Here's Wikipedia on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

Almost by definition, if you have a household income near or above your area's median household income, you are in either the lower or the upper middle class.

But it is true that it is very difficult today for many middle class families today probably to reach and maintain the degree of economic security that has been associated with the middle-class over the past three decades. If SS and Medicare are eroded much further, it is probable that the "middle-class" designation won't mean that much any more.

In particular, when ObamaCare takes full effect in 2014 most older "middle-class" households that don't obtain insurance through work (and that number will drop) may fall out of the middle-class entirely. Using Kaiser's calculator:
http://healthreform.kff.org/subsidycalculator.aspx

Suppose in 2014 you are a 62 year old divorced male who has an income of 55K:
You are required to buy health insurance,
Kaiser estimates the premium at $10,172 (> 18% of before-tax income), which pays 70% of costs while the insured pays 30%.
Your maximum out-of-pocket costs are $6,250.
The best coverage you can probably buy will have 80/20 share, meaning you will have to pay 20%, and that will cost significantly more than 10K. However if you are stretched, you will be able to buy a plan that covers 60% of costs, and you have to pay 40%.

A lot of older households won't even be able to stay in their homes. It will be interesting.

So after tax:
$55,000
- 4,207.50 (FICA, employee half only, double if self employed or contractor)
- 7,500.00 (estimated federal tax liability, standard deduction)
- 3,000.00 (estimated state tax liability)
----------
$40,292.50
-10,172.00 (health insurance premium)
----------
$30,120.50

Out of that you have retirement savings, living costs, and 30% of medical costs to cover up to a maximum of $6,250.

Now compare the same guy making 30K a year.

After tax:
$30,000.00
- 2,295.00 (FICA, employee half only, double if self-employed or contractor)
- 2,650.00 (estimated federal tax liability, standard deduction)
- 1,650.00 (estimated state tax liability)
----------
$23,405.00
- 2,509.00 (health insurance premium, subsidized)
----------
$20,896

Forget about the retirement savings, but you have to pay living costs and 30% of your medical costs up to a maximum of $3,125.

If the Medicare eligibility age really ever does get raised to 67, I figure a lot of retirees will have their savings wiped out before they ever qualify for SS and Medicare.

This is the reason I am telling people to be careful about buying homes. When this reform takes effect, there will be a sharp cap on spendable income inserted into many areas and it is going to cause another round of economic trouble. Right now a lot of people are getting by with only catastrophic coverage, but that option is hardly ideal and ends soon.

[barbtries]

57. as i told my son the other day,

if the republicans get their way it'll just be the filthy rich or the dirt poor. and i know where i'll be.

[blindpig]

62. 'Working class' is commie talk......

That's why it was dropped from the national lexicon during the Red Scare.

The delusion of 'the American Dream' is done, we are back to reality, the momentary triumph of Capital will give way to it's antithesis.

Big fat k&r.

[Little Star]

63. There are many more working class than middle class in this country, imho. n/t

[Odin2005]

66. There is objectively no such thing as the "middle class", Just Capitalists and Workers.

[SoCalDem]

71. "Middle class" was a blip on the radar

SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-10-11 12:11 PM
Original message

Anyone waiting for a return to "middle class", may be waiting forever


Middle Class status was a blip...an aberration, a cultural iconic status that was well-hyped, and actually achieved by very few.

A look at American life in the rear view mirror is helpful in understanding it.

Prior to our entry into WWII, MOST people lived in a rich-poor USA. People in big cities lived crammed into small apartments (often over Mom& Pop) businesses that barely covered expenses, or in run-down tenement buildings.

Rural/small-town people lived a hand-to-mouth existence, and worked dawn to dusk...usually in very small ramshackle places.

The country was mired in depression/post depression angst, with men roaming the country looking for work, and families loading up what little they had into anything they could move, just to try their luck somewhere else. Jobs were scarce, and when found, paid little. The only "un-rich" who had credit were the ones who "owed their soul to the company-store".


WWII swooped up most of the men and sent them abroad, which immediately created millions of "job openings".

It's no surprise that an eager female workforce snapped up those jobs, and gave us pretty much "full employment".

Post-WWII (only a 6 yr span from start to finish), brought back the men (and displaced most of the women) and with those men, an eagerness to make up for lost time. It's also important to remember that most of the rest of the world's production capacity was thrashed, so we were poised to shoot right to the top of the heap, and we did.

The timeline from 1950 (when most of the ones in the GI Bill had finished college) to the mid-60's, created millions of new families who truly needed everything. The generation born after the war would be living AWAY from the "family homes". Until after the war , it was not unusual for families to be in multi-generational living arrangements.

A look at old census records showed me that at one time in the late 20's, my grandparents lived at an address that also housed 2 brothers, their wives and children and 3 elderly parents. As a kid I rode bikes & roller-skated past that old house many times, never even knowing the history of that place, or that once upon a time, my ancestors jammed so many people into that 4 bedroom house.

Post WWII vets had earned the right to have their own place, and took advantage of the opportunity.

Movies, magazines & later TV, showed us all what "middle class" was supposed to be, and Madison Avenue was happy to oblige.

As the only exporter of "stuff", and a country with tremendous pent-up demand for all the goods & services that people had been denied by first the Depression and later the war, it's no surprise that we boomed.

Even in the midst of "middle class", it never really was what we had all been sold, because the seeds of destruction had already been planted. There were many children, who would soon be fighting each other for jobs that would start disappearing as they aged.

People who had never dreamed that they would own a home, were able to buy that house & have a car and take a vacation now and then, and even save some money, but behind the scenes, business was already trying to find ways to eliminate expenses, and with them , jobs.

As a child of the 50's, it was rare to find ANYTHING in stores that was not "made in the USA". Occasionally we would run across something that said "Made in occupied Japan", and a little later, just "Made in Japan", but that stuff did not sell well to people who had recently been at war with Japan.

Business is all about profit, and every penny saved on wages & benefits, is a penny in the pockets of the ones in charge.

The children of WWII vets & their wives never experienced the Depression, and had only ever known plenty, so it should come as no surprise, that this generation would not be as frugal as their parents' & grandparents' generations had been...especially after a young-lifetime of being indulged by parents who felt lucky to have survived the war and who had so much more than many of them had ever expected to have.

This era also ushered in (in a big way) cheap throw-away stuff. It was suddenly possible (even preferred) to buy single use "stuff". Where people used to hang onto things and repair them over and over, and then dismantle them for parts for the "next one", now those items were just tossed out and a new one bought to replace it. Repair shops faded away...and with them, a family income went as well.

For 169 years (1776-1945), America was rich v poor, with very little in the middle, and in a 6 year period, we "created" Middle Class". By the time the 1970's rolled around, "Middle Class" was getting a little ragged around the edges, and starting to be less achievable by more and more people.

Credit cards replaced wage-increases necessary to maintain the standard of living that most people now felt entitled to, and as the rest of the world needed less of what we "made", it was no surprise that jobs and the benefits that came with those jobs, would start to decline in number. The technology boom also made whole swaths of "the economy" outdated and non-existent. The problem though, is that there were people....real people...still attached to those segments of vanished job markets. Those people had/have families, and expenses.

The union movement (earned at great cost decades earlier) was becoming "unnecessary" because there were just so many Boomers to fill a shrinking number of jobs, and mechanization was marching along to eliminate more jobs.

Decades of bad legislation and sweetheart deals made in back rooms, have sold us all out, and the need to rely on credit for so many, have undone millions of families.

Recession after recession , with an aggravating regularity, coupled with recurring bouts of massive fraud and the following taxpayer bail-outs , has dealt the Middle Class a pretty shitty hand, and there are no more Aces in the deck.

We may be soon returning to the way of life we had for most of our nation's "life"....a hand-to-mouth, unsure way of living...We had a blip of about 30 years of what most would call "Middle Class" (mostly for the people born in the early-1930's) , and now it's ending, and we're headed back to what we always were..rich v poor, with most of us scrambling for the scraps. We may have better quality scraps these days, but they are still scraps..

[blindpig]

78. Good, but a little context......

gotta take into account the Cold War and the Red Scare.

The New Deal headed off the pre-revolutionary sentiment which had been building and was certainly not forgotten by the ruling class. That sentiment had to be buried, it is no surprise that middle class replaced working class in the national lexicon. "Workers of the World, Unite!", Er, what workers, we're all middle class around here. How Orwellian.

The Soviet Union stood as an example of another way of doing things, and that example was picking up strength post war. And so every sort of slander was invented, contorted or devised against it. But that was not enough, Capital need be made to look good and as business was so damn good before the Japanese and Germans really got back in the game, there was some to fob to the worker and good purpose to do so.

But get back in the game they did, the competition depressed profits, various bubbles and scams got the juice moving for a little which then popped like roadkill in the sun. And then the Soviet Union was finally defeated, new horizons were open, no need to play around with a working class too big for it's britches, who owned this society anyways? It might be said that Soviet tanks defended the American 'middle class', and now they were gone. And here we are.

[Romulox]

74. That's not what "working class" means.

Please, let's not revise the $250k/yr is "working class" argument. It just reeks of historical ignorance. :sigh:

[Gormy Cuss]

76. "Middle class" is a state of mind. Income, on the other hand is tangible and measurable.

A lot of people who think of themselves as "middle class" aren't earning near the median income level, for example. It's why using the term "middle class" is wrong when discussing incomes.

[Angry Dragon]

79. I need a definition from you on what is middle-class

Not trying to be snarky, have asked hundreds in government and no two answers are the same, if I get an answer at all

[Beam Me Up]

81. The point is, I'm working class. I don't identify as "middle class" -- whatever that may be.