What the hell is going on with the circus side show on Wall St?

[rapturedbyrobots]

After watching videos of ritual arrest going on, I'm embarrassed to say I was actually entertaining the idea of joining these clowns. Its so annoying and disheartening to see people turn this into a hackneyed script of war against the cops...a script that all the more easier to write off...than a celebration of the real possibilities that might be emerging from the cracks in global financial capital. why do the people attempting to pass for the vanguard of the resistance...or whatever they imagine themselves as...attempt to turn a completely irrelevant argument about a tarp into a full blown altercation complete with the ritual sacrifice of a few useful idiots. they goad the cops into an inevitable conflict, then scream bloody murder when someone gets handcuffed. oh my god! his cuffs are to tight. oh my god! he's having an asthma attack. asthma! oh my god. he's bleeding from a scrape on his finger! his finger! i guess i'm just frustrated that what i was hoping would be an inspiring moment is just devolving into more protester v. cop spectacle. how is this supposed to inspire anyone to join the wall st. occupation?

for the record. i'm not justifying the cops actions. a.c.a.b. but seriously. this is just stupid:

http://youtu.be/pwgUUbgwKBU

[polly7]

1. At least they're out there trying. I admire them.

Saw nothing about any war against the cops, actually it seems to be the reverse. Btw .... did you know asthma attacks are sometimes fatal?

[rapturedbyrobots]

6. re: trying

out there trying what? to get arrested? if they were out there actually trying to imagine and build real alternatives to this shithole we're in, then i'd love to be out there. all i've seen in any of the media (maybe this is just crappy coverage by the media) is this kind of side show. the point of civil disobedience should not be TO GET ARRESTED. it should be to do whatever you can to avoid getting arrested so you can actually accomplish something. and police tactics are laughably predictable. so if you're going to put yourself in a situation that will predictably get you nabbed. then at least grow a pair and take it like a G. i know what police brutality looks like. many of my friends & family have been beaten silly by the cops. luckily i was always to fast for them to catch up to me. one of my best friends growing up is now serving 10 years for having the audacity to fight back while getting beaten for making a cop chase him. what was in that video is not police brutality. its just a couple douchebags with badges acting like douchebags and arresting other douchebags without badges.

[polly7]

7. To get the attention of the people who seem to believe the only people

entitled to a decent life, a job, health-care ..... are the top 1%? What do you think they're out there risking everything for?

I stopped reading at about 'to fast to catch up to me', your post is just too hard to read.

[rapturedbyrobots]

9. they have attention

the question is what do you do with it? apparently get yourself arrested and broadcast it on youtube for kicks & a protester martyrdom badge.

no thanks.

its sad when you can't inspire a person who hates millionaires and cops as much as anybody.

[polly7]

10. No, the only attention they've gotten so far is the brutal arrests and

a bit of biased reporting, from what I've seen. I hope they keep it up!, and good wishes to all of them.

[Cal33]

128. I'll bet half of America doesn't even know that the real enemies of Americans are the Corporatists,

who have been ripping off the American people for the past dozen years. These
young protesters are trying to capture the ATTENTION of more Americans and
point out to them this fact -- just as their parents and grandparents
protested against the futility and stupidity of the Vietnam War. They
started small and it took years, but finally they did win.

The confrontations between protesters and cops were and are something that
couldn't and can't be helped. Protesters were and are doing what they thought
and think was the best for the nation. And cops had and have to do their
job -- as ordered.

I hope the present-day youngsters will win their point, too.

[EstimatedProphet]

11. "the point of civil disobedience should not be TO GET ARRESTED."

That's exactly what the point of civil disobedience is. Doing whatever you can to avoid getting arrested is called civil obedience.

[jberryhill]

113. Depressing, isn't it?

[louslobbs]

132. Yes, it really is.

Lou

[pipi_k]

13. I don't think you are far off the mark...

as I read in another thread that one of the goals/points of "peaceful" protest IS to get arrested.

Like you haven't really "succeeded" unless/until you've been arrested.

It's almost like little kids trying, trying, trying so hard to push their parents' buttons just to get a response. Even negative attention is better than no attention at all. So the kid escalates his behavior until he gets a swat on the ass. After which he cries and declares that Mommy or Daddy is a beast for swatting him, and he gets to feel like a victim at the same time he's secretly sort of happy for pushing Mom or Dad to that point.

In general, the MSM haven't given much coverage to the protests. And that pisses off a lot of people. What the hell is the point of protesting if nobody sees it... How do you get attention? By causing a big ruckus.

I think protesting can be a useful tool most of the time. But when it descends into stupidity, it hurts the cause.

[Threedifferentones]

29. And so that is your take on Civil Rights as well...

All those folks in the 1960s should just have accepted that mommy and daddy know best. If only MLK Jr. hadn't been arrested, he'd be greatly admired and respected today.

What a fucking joke. The point of the protests is to remind those fuckers on WS that their greedy actions are hurting millions of their countrymen. But, they can't really be reminded of this, because cops won't let any of us regular people near our rich rulers. And this is okay with you? Attempting to cross the barrier of a "free speech zone" is stupid?

I like scanning these forums. But, when the discussions descend into stupidity, it really just hurts the cause.

[pipi_k]

35. I didn't say that

Civil rights was for everyone. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc.
Everyone. It was a moral issue.


This protest on Wall Street is being conducted by people who seem to hate capitalism and appear to want it abolished.

Well, that's not a universal cause, is it?

And it's not exactly an either/or moral issue, whereas Civil Rights was. There was no middle ground on Civil Rights. No gray areas. No slippery slope.

You get into protesting Wall Street and Capitalism, and you do run into quite a few gray areas. Big business sucks, but what are you going to do? Not everyone wants to be a farmer. Not everyone is cut out to run a small business.

Big difference between Civil Rights and this protest on Wall Street.

[tama]

52. Capitalistic globalization

is exactly an universal cause. It affects every being on this planet - and not in a good way. It is a moral issue, if we want to preserve for our children a livable planet.

Evolution does not ask what everybody wants, it's not a democracy in that way. Evolution means simply adaptation to sustainable way of life.

[pipi_k]

58. I don't see anything wrong with

global capitalization as long as it's kept within bounds.

Capitalism and ecology can co-exist with proper guidelines.

[tama]

87. How do you keep in bounds

a system that is based on continuous growth - which is capitalism as we know it.

What kind of idealized capitalism would not be dependent from continuous growth?

[newspeak]

108. it's not just the continuous growth

it is the "too big to fail" huge global corporations that skirt regulation in most countries-that can do damage to populations and environment, while getting a sometimes small monetary hand slap while destroying livelihoods and health. It is global corporations that have no fealty to any country, only fealty to power and profit, that may have more influence in governments than the people.

And we have been warned about giving too much power to corporations from thomas jefferson, lincoln, gen. smedley butler, FDR, eisenhower.

[Threedifferentones]

53. Almost responded to your point in my original post, since I knew it was coming.

Yes yes, since Civil Rights mostly succeeded it is now obvious the protestors were right, and that the cause was undeniable. Does that mean there were not a lot of people, black and white, who sympathized with those protestors in the '60s, but told them to wait more peacefully for change? There was never debate about just how radical protests should be in the fight against racism?

Civil Rights protests were needed because back then it was not obvious that the cause was just and "for everyone." If it was for everyone, why were cops so vicious in trying to stop it?

And what about the gray areas that existed then? Are you ignorant of our own history? Malcom and Martin agreed on everything because there were no gray areas? There were not any black men who believed their female counterparts should remain subordinate? Black people and Latinos generally get a long real easy in the inner city these days...according to your imagination!

In the future, if humans don't wipe this planet clean with warfare and greed, it will be obvious that these protests against the way we distribute wealth are for everyone, and that our system needs deep, systemic change for society to progress. It may indeed turn out so many changes are needed we must start again with another revolution! That is the real American spirit, and I thank anyone who angers a cop in the name of social progress.

[rapturedbyrobots]

59. by all means anger the cops

you want to get radical? get radical. but when the shit gets deep don't bitch about your cuffs being too tight or having an asthma attack & post it on youtube.

[Threedifferentones]

65. Lol. That response invalidates your OP and (I think) everything else you have written here.

At first it's pointless to get arrested, and the people who do so are like kids clamoring for punishment so they can pout for attention. Now, we need to get radical, and the only problem is that the radicals are too whiny. Well hell, let's just break out the guns on Wall Street! That way at least we can complain about deaths instead of handcuffs.

At least I've proved what I wanted to. Just delete your thread pls, it has no substance.

[rapturedbyrobots]

69. invalidates what exactly?

if you're going to engage in civil disobedience, then you are pretty much assuming the risk of arrest. that doesn't mean you should try to get arrested or allow yourself to be put into situations that will predictably lead to your arrest. it is pointless, and certainly don't expect it to make other people want to join your spectacle. and certainly don't be a drama queen about it when it happens.

please see post #46

[MedicalAdmin]

86. Way to miss the point Mr. Wayne.

The idea of getting arrest or provoking a response is to shine a light on the injustice of what you are protesting and to get others to notice.

Your philosophy of just being quiet and going to jail "like a man" without complaint is from another era. I don't suppose ST. Ron of Reagan is one of your heroes is he?

There is some mighty strange fruit hanging from that philosophy.

[MedicalAdmin]

82. Thank you for that deep and insightful analysis...

Using John Wayne reductionist philosophy.

Truly inspiring pilgrim.

[pipi_k]

64. Whatever people back then thought or didn't think...

whether black men believed their women should remain subordinate, etc.

The fact of the matter is that Civil Rights...in and of itself...is a moral issue that should not have gray areas. No unintended bad consequences for anyone. It was, and always will be, something worth fighting and protesting for.


Whereas killing off Capitalism has a lot of gray areas and unintended bad consequences for a lot of people.

Just like when people say we should boycott this business or kill off that bank, and nobody stops to think that it's not the corporate pigs at the top who will suffer...it's the little people with families to support and one paycheck away from being homeless.

Yeah, all fine and dandy to "stick it to" the banks, but the ones who will suffer won't be the ones who should suffer.

So here's the deal...anybody who doesn't want to be affected by Capitalism can get a tent and live in the desert someplace. Or in the mountains. No car. No computer. No credit cards or silly bank accounts. No washers, dryers, microwaves, telephones. Don't sit here and rage against our Capitalist society while taking advantage of everything that's a part of our Capitalist society.

[MedicalAdmin]

88. Red herring alert........ Typical.

This movement isn't asking for the abOlishment of capitalism, just a reining in of corporatism.

Feel free to pick up your broad brush and smear some more bs.

[newspeak]

105. how about holding some accountable for the mess we're in?

how about opening eyes to the fact that some on wall street who created the mess, bet on our misery? How about applying the rule of law on those who need to be in front of a grand jury?

So, everyone who is protesting is against capitalism? Maybe some are against predatory capitalism-unregulated capitalism.

How about protesting powerful corporate interest in our government, especially wall street, against labor and main street?

It looked like a peaceful protest until law enforcement through their weight around. I wonder if some have the same thoughts about the lunch counter sit ins by african americans or when the police hosed or beat up civil rights protesters. Or how about the women's suffragettes who were imprisoned and had to be force fed?

Oh wait, that was then and this is now. Everyone knows protests don't work anymore. We should just shut up and take it.

[DrunkenBoat]

112. It was a political, legal & economic issue. As this is. And this is also a moral issue.

And there are plenty of people *already* living in tents without washers & dryers.

Your "critique" could easily have been written back in civil rights days. and was.

[bvar22]

74. Don'y try to tell our neighbors in Latin America it is NOT a Universal Issue.

"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a neoliberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

FDR said much the same thing in 1944 with his Economic Bill of Rights.
Unfortunately, FDR & THAT "Democratic Party" are long dead.

You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[pipi_k]

75. Just like many other things...

It's not capitalism itself that is wrong.

It's the way it's often used.

[MedicalAdmin]

90. Gee. That is exactly what most of the protracted are saying too. Good to know you agree.

Cue: single example used to conflate entire movement with one nuts opinion.

[MedicalAdmin]

79. Do you ever see the forest for the trees?

[themadstork]

158. This is an incredibly ignorant post.

The workings of the global financial sector is pretty much as universal as it can be. It determines who gets food to eat and who doesn't. It directly determines the material quality of life for VAST amounts of people. You can only wave this off as a niche issue because you are in fact a member of the country that calls the shots, and thus your position in the food chain is less precarious. To continue the comparison with civil rights, in this case you ARE the white man, and you're reacting exactly as they did back then. "Civil rights? Psh, that's only for women and the colored! Enough of these niche issues, these minority rights, give us something that affects us all!"

[JVS]

37. Weird. Both that post and the OP were just over 200 words.

[themadstork]

157. Getting arrested is pretty much the point.

You -disobey- and gladly accept the punishment to make a principled stand. You say it's not inspiring, but I at least find it to be. Peaceful resistance shows restraint, makes you "the better person." Fighting back fosters anger and depression, and unless you've got the numbers to actually win a battle, it's also kind of pointless.

[mod mom]

73. I admire them also!

[pintobean]

2. Unrec - I think this protest is counterproductive

but I respect the people down there who think they can make a difference. I find your post disgusting.

[BeHereNow]

104. +1000

bhn

[ellenfl]

3. seems to me it's turning into over-reaction by cop. eom

[formercia]

92. ...or is it an attempt by the NYPD to get the protesters to react violently

Even if it is the slightest attempt at deflecting a blow, we have seen protesters charged with assaulting a Police Officer. From what I have read already, the Police have been told by their superiors, that the protesters have been violent (not true) and this would predispose them to react harshly at any sign of a confrontation.

[ellenfl]

137. that, too. eom

[rpannier]

4. Unrec

I've followed the protest through various news media around the globe
I find your analysis to be way off

[butterfly77]

5. Maybe,they need...

another clown like you to join the circus...

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. heh

:evilgrin:

[fasttense]

8. Oh come on, cops attacking protesters? Where have we seen this before?

Vietnam War protests, civil rights, Union busting, Gandhi in India, the French revolution, the ousting of the monarchies from Russia and Egypt.

As if protesters have never ever been attacked by police and then gone on to change the world.

You obviously think this is merely a circus for your entertainment. But this is real life and the Wall Street banksters have sent out their minions to do their bidding and they include the NYPD.

I'm very proud of the protesters, they are true Americans because they remained peaceful while the powerful are brutal and violent.

[digitaln3rd]

21. Get a grip.

Just because the police are there to keep order doesn't mean every false accusation by anarchists and idiots that already hate the police are true.

People will overdue the cries of "brutality" just to fit their agenda every time.

And, for the record, it is an embarrassment to watch them make fools out of themselves.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raksha]

144. LOL!

[EstimatedProphet]

100. Really? You sure about that?

http://youtu.be/TZ05rWx1pig

[Matariki]

141. Hey "digitaln3rd" - what do you believe in?

Every post I see from you is critical of people pushing progressive ideals. What sort of political activities do you engage in? What party or candidates do you work for? What is your interest in DU?

[Remember Me]

153. +1 - Let's see if you get any sort of response at all.

I'm betting not.

[MineralMan]

12. Unrec.

I truly doubt that you really intended to go there. I don't find this particular action in NYC to be that worthwhile, but I have to give props to those who are participating. Your belittling their efforts is pretty lame, really.

Getting arrested is part of any civil disobedience. It helps to bring the message to the public and can provide a platform in the court system to discuss the issues.

If you aren't there, you can't really speak about the participants' motivations or issues.

If find your post to be...well...borderline offensive, really.

[WilliamPitt]

14. Hm.

Maybe these are citizens with no experience in organizing large-scale protests trying to do something, anything, to bring attention to the crimes of Wall Street that affect each of us, even you.

Maybe if some other people - notably Democratic Party organizations - with actual experience in these kinds of actions dropped their corporate sponsorship and got involved, it wouldn't be so disorganized.

Maybe I'm pretty sick of seeing posts on DU attacking people who are trying to help you.

Maybe.

[Javaman]

16. +1 nt

[marmar]

28. The fact that there are so many posts attacking the protesters tells me.....

..... that their efforts are beginning to have an effect. Rock on, Occupy Wall Street !!!

[EFerrari]

33. Agreed.

[peacetalksforall]

47. Congratulations to you, W Pitt, for including a suggestion with merit.

"Maybe if some other people - notably Democratic Party organizations - with actual experience in these kinds of actions dropped their corporate sponsorship and got involved, it wouldn't be so disorganized."

I will repeat for the reality of what you say -
"dropped their corporate sponsorship"

with the suggestion -
"and got involved".

I would like also like to see if something could be done to figure out how protester watches could be conducted to spot the infiltrators who spark the violence when this happens (sometimes the cops start it by making up rules on the spot).

If there could be some way that those who don't want the violence can break away en masse and leave the infiltrators to the cops. Those who participate in peacefully intended protests are so vulnerable, and maybe gullible.

If there is space maybe they should move en masse and never to a cul-de-sac. I believe that some protesters are unaware of the manipulations that go on to make the protesters look rogue, hippie like, 'un-American (what a laugh).

Then press takes it from there. They paint each group of protesters en masse with whatever they have been directed to say - they have their internal red, orange, yellow lights independent from what actually happened because they are more interested in protecting the corpocracy.

There has to be some form of watch and signals.

of protestors that will cover the a and avoit cul de sacsap eacefully don't seem to be aware that infiltrating to cause violence to allow the press to place everything in a negative light ey may

[steve2470]

15. At least they are trying

Perhaps one day the real "professionals" will join them. Unrec.

[Javaman]

17. Fail. nt

[formercia]

18. I suspect some in the crowd are provocateurs

You can be assured that plain-clothes officers are among the protesters. At what point do they get orders to cause trouble as a justification to clear the area by the NYPD?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Yes, I have SEEN provocateurs in action when participating in anti-war protests

in Portland.

Fortunately, in the instances I witnessed, the crowd, mostly members of the much-maligned baby boomer generation, was savvy enough to resist the incitements to set cars on fire or charge the police barricades.

[piratefish08]

19. ..

delete

[OHdem10]

20. I am lost on this one. Why are there DUers criticizing Protestors.

I have to chuckle --if this were the 60s, some of you
would have been the Righties screaming Law and Order
against those dirty old hippies and flower children.

Just making an observation, not a meanspirted comment.

The 60s gave us great changes including Civil Rights
were not a collection of peaceful marches. Peaceful
Marches alone and nothing would have changed.

[Skidmore]

40. I firmly believe that there are lonely bridges out there

missing their trolls.

[OHdem10]

49. Hi Skidmore, Are you insinurating that I am a troll . Sorry to

disappoint.

Kill the Messenger was perfected by the GOP and is
that what you are doing.

[Skidmore]

63. No, I'm stating outright that there are people who come to these

boards as part of an organized effort to insinuate themselves into the community and to sow discord. It does happen and I believe that quite a few of these types of posts come from trolls.

[rapturedbyrobots]

42. attending a protest

does place you beyond the realm of critique by DUers or anyone else.

[OHdem10]

55. My oh my, how personal can we get.

I stand by my comment. Over the last week I have
read post after post making comments against the
Wall ST Protesters. I have merely expressed surprise.
I had thought Duers would protect their right to
protest.

I gave my opinion,

I learned along time ago people will believe what
they want to believe. This does not mean I
consider my opinion any more or less than anyone
else.

[LanternWaste]

98. No less than and no more than watching a news broadcast of that same protest...

"does place you beyond the realm of critique by DUers or anyone else..."

No less than and no more than watching a news broadcast of that same protest presents one wuith an unbiased and objective perspective of what's happening... :shrug:

[Zorra]

80. "...Righties screaming Law and Order against those dirty old hippies and flower children."

:thumbsup:

Same shit, different day.

[devilgrrl]

22. What flame baiting bullshit.

You're not interested in what's going on....

Clown.

[EFerrari]

23. Who could have possibly imagined a protest would involve conflict.

lmao

[backscatter712]

24. Your concern is noted.

:eyes:

[ohheckyeah]

25. Instead of hoping

it would be an inspiring moment and criticizing people who are actually doing something maybe you should try to do something yourself.

And for fuck's sake, learn how to write a coherent sentence.

[rapturedbyrobots]

72. See post #46 n/t

[Lucian]

26. This is one of the most idiotic OPs I've ever seen on this website.

And the sad thing is, you're sitting on your computer bitching, while those protestors are actually out there doing something.

If you can think you can do better, go ahead.

[rapturedbyrobots]

36. when i'm not sitting on my computer bitching

i'm busy co-running a non-profit community center. for no pay. what do you do with your spare time? besides sit around on your computer and bitch at me?

i'm not arguing that people shouldn't be out there. the question is what do you do while you're there. and doing 'something' means nothing. notice that this kind of nonsense wasn't the focus of the egyptian occupation that this is supposedly inspired by. they did something too. but it wan't this.

disagreeing with the methods of the occupation doesn't equate to disagreeing with the need for occupation. we all agree on the crappy situation & the need to dismantle global finance capital. but the critique is not the solution. neither is getting arrested over dumb shit.

[polly7]

45. 'Dumb shit' happens, especially when you're rocking the boat in a sea

of sharks. What exactly are you saying, that because these bogus arrests happen, these people are wasting their time? If critique isn't the solution, and protests like this leave you feeling embarrassed, what's your solution?

[Dogtown]

110. Link, pls?

Anyone can claim to co-run anything on the internets.

I co-run the Justice League of America in *my* spare time.

Keeps me too busy to post flame-bait about people who are *actually* doing something.

[Lucian]

119. I can also say I co-run something.

I co-run a place for physically-challenged Siberian tigers.

It's easy to lie on the internet.

[Dogtown]

161. Indeed, Lucien.

Liars abound.

[Lucian]

118. That's exactly what you're doing.

You've offered no viable alternative.

I can't believe I've wasted 30 seconds responding to you.

[quinnox]

27. Unrec'cd with pleasure

I have made a bit of fun of this protest, but this is just nasty.

[Oilwellian]

30. Somehow, I doubt you were thinking of joining the protesters

Instead, may I suggest you get a dictionary and learn the meaning of the words to, too, and two? It's not that hard. I know you can do it.

[pipi_k]

43. I don't see anyone else here going off to join them...

And, if asked why not, I'll bet there would be a ton of excuses.

Nahhh...let someone else get beaten up or maced or arrested.


Cheer from the sidelines...yay!!! Oh, so sorry they're getting the shit kicked out of them, but hey...better them than us... :eyes:

[rapturedbyrobots]

71. See post #46

p.s. i dont care about you're grammar policing.

[tkmorris]

111. Clearly

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. maybe they are sentinel beings

still capable of emotional reactions to the apathy of Wall Street :shrug:


and are warring against our robotic overlords, trying to speak against the possibility of a future materialistic, consumerism.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polly7]

34. whoot! +1000 nt,

[Tuesday Afternoon]

57. damn. hate I missed it --

had to be total awesomeness.

[polly7]

61. err..........

it was sweet:hide:

[Broderick]

38. I think some are just teabaggers trying like hell

to make the honest protesters look bad.

[blindpig]

85. Ah, so the cops wouldn't beat 'honest protesters?

Really, on what planet?

They do as they are ordered, and they are here to preserve 'order', as prescribed by the capitalist class.

[Broderick]

95. The mace incident was way over the line

out of control, trying to get a riot starting in my humble opinion

[MadHound]

41. Don't see you out there putting your happy ass on the line anywhere for anything

What have you done to help make this world a better place, stood on the sidelines and kvetched about those who take action.

[rapturedbyrobots]

70. See post #46 n/t

[MadHound]

103. Again, don't see you out there putting your happy ass on the line

". . .quit questioning the bona fides of someone just because they criticized a few idiots for willingly victimizing themselves on youtube."

Of course you don't want people questioning your bona fides, because despite your vague promise of doing something on the local/regional level, my guess is that all you've got up your sleeve is hot air and maybe a ponzi scheme or two.

Furthermore, you have no idea what the protesters on Wall St. do when they are not out on the street, nor do you have room to scold those of us who post on this board, because, again, you don't know what we're doing in real life.

You simply want to demonize those who are taking action on the street, and put yourself above it all. Sorry, but I am directly involved with creating change in my community, I will not be contacting you. Why should I work for somebody who is so mean spirited, full of him/herself, and could very well be running a scam of some sort. No thanks.

[uncle ray]

44. i'd be much more embarrased to be a cop arresting people for using a tarp in the rain.

[rapturedbyrobots]

46. doing something

if you're really interested in doing something besides shouting at cops, personal message me, let's talk about building local/regional alternatives to the finance economy, and if you're up for it i'll meet you in new york to get things started. otherwise, quit questioning the bona fides of someone just because they criticized a few idiots for willingly victimizing themselves on youtube.

[rapturedbyrobots]

50. hmmm

no takers. why am i not surprised?

[Zorra]

107. I'll be your huckleberry.

2011 Egyptian revolution


The 2011 Egyptian revolution (Arabic: ثورة ٢٥ يناير‎ thawret 25 yanāyir, Revolution of 25 January) took place following a popular uprising that began on Tuesday, 25 January 2011 and is still continuing as of September 2011. The uprising was mainly a campaign of non-violent civil resistance, which featured a series of demonstrations, marches, acts of civil disobedience, and labour strikes. Millions of protesters from a variety of socio-economic and religious backgrounds demanded the overthrow of the regime of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. Despite being predominantly peaceful in nature, the revolution was not without violent clashes between security forces and protesters, with at least 846 people killed and 6,000 injured.<22><23> The uprising took place in Cairo, Alexandria, and in other cities in Egypt, following the Tunisian Revolution that saw the overthrow of the long-time Tunisian president. On 11 February, following weeks of determined popular protest and pressure, Mubarak resigned from office.

Grievances of Egyptian protesters were focused on legal and political issues<24> including police brutality,<1> state of emergency laws,<1> lack of free elections and freedom of speech,<2> uncontrollable corruption,<2> and economic issues including high unemployment,<3> food price inflation,<3> and low minimum wages.<1><3> The primary demands from protest organizers were the end of the Hosni Mubarak regime and the end of emergency law; freedom, justice, a responsive non-military government, and a say in the management of Egypt's resources.<25> Strikes by labour unions added to the pressure on government officials.<26>

During the uprising the capital city of Cairo was described as "a war zone,"<27> and the port city of Suez was the scene of frequent violent clashes. The government imposed a curfew that protesters defied and that the police and military did not enforce. The presence of Egypt's Central Security Forces police, loyal to Mubarak, was gradually replaced by largely restrained military troops. In the absence of police, there was looting by gangs that opposition sources said were instigated by plainclothes police officers. In response, watch groups were organised by civilians to protect neighbourhoods.<28><29><30><31><32>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Egyptian_revolution

Should be self-explanatory. People get "trickled down" on for too long, they start to fight back. They see injustice going on for too long, they react.

Most of us here, myself included, don't really agree with your ridicule of the protesters. We see them as our representatives, and applaud them and encourage them and many of us wish we were in a position to be there, and would be there if we could.

I was in Seattle. Our primary intent was to make the world aware of the WTO.

We marched through the streets chanting "The Whole World Is Watching" as police pepper sprayed us, beat us with billy clubs, and hauled many of us off to jail.

But we obviously got the point across, as is the Wall St. Occupation.

The problem is, you are dissing heroes, and seem to be inferring that they are whiny criminals. People that are taking baby steps for necessary change, change that can no longer come about through the political process because the political process is owned by Wall St.

The time for talking is over. Nobody is going to PM you and chit chat on alternative systems that some of us have been promoting for 40 yrs. now.

The protesters are waving our flag in front of the halls of dictatorship, risking their freedom and their health. Bless their beautiful hearts.

These circumstances naturally call into question the motivation for your OP on a democratically oriented message board.

We are Anonymous, and we are legion.

Get up. Stand up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7iXcKKpdx0

[Marrah_G]

159. I wish I could rec your post !

:yourock:

[tama]

60. Let me guess

you are young male, tough guy pumped with male hormones and know-better attitude? :)

I'm all for local alternatives, been living in ecovillages. All local alternatives are about local communities and learning to live communally. When building a community and learning to live as member of a community, language and attitude like "few idiots for willingly victimizing themselves" does not help at all.

There can be time and place for tough love, if we keep on feeding our traumas and cannot let go of them and continue living. But the time and place is not when the victims of physical violence are still in state of schock.

[devilgrrl]

101. +1

eom

[tpsbmam]

78. If you have something of value to say, say it here. The whole PM thing is a coward's way out

on this thread.

[hedgehog]

116. HI Agent Mike! Long time, no see!

:hi:

[Marrah_G]

160. ~snort~

:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

[raouldukelives]

51. If only they were protesting in favor of Wall St

Then they'd have the cooperation of the police, banks, 401k investors and the tea party.

[peacetalksforall]

62. Excellent!

"If only they were protesting in favor of Wall St

Then they'd have the cooperation of the police, banks, 401k investors and the tea party."

It's worth repeating. Thanks.

[TheKentuckian]

54. boo. I'm sorry they aren't rolling over enough for your tastes.

You ought to be inspired by the devastation of the economy and the absurd wealth disparity.

[rapturedbyrobots]

66. See post #46 n/t

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rapturedbyrobots]

67. See post #46 n/t

[Desertrose]

68. TPTB have to make this look bad...by whatever means.

Its this simple...the media is controlled and tells us what to believe.

I hope these brave & courageous protestors can hang in. I hope the media finally does the right thing and reports the truth....but I doubt they'd know it if it bit them in the ass.

[Patriot 76]

76. Who are you to shit on the protests of others?

People exercising their 1st Amendment rights deserve praise, not your petty scorn.

[Skip Intro]

77. You know, I agree with you. nt

[adigal]

81. I'm inspired to join them, so you are wrong.

I think they need some middle-aged blood down there, women in skirts and men in suits, also. I may join them this week.

[patrick t. cakes]

135. awsome!

[loyalsister]

83. Getting arrested is part of demonstrating

BUT, other groups that protest hold training sessions and tell people how they should handle being arrested to avoid problems. USUALLY, getting arrested offers another platform from which to state their goals. No such organized goals here. An organized action by a group with clear goals would have more credibility. Just showing up and hanging out trivializes the use of direct action to further an agenda.

[tama]

94. What makes you think

that people in NYC are not having training sessions and spreading information how they should handle being arrested? From what I've seen people on the ground are showing great discipline of non-violent tactics and great creativity.

IMHO staying there and just by being "hanging out" there declaring by presence that "this land is your land, this land is my land" and getting and staying organized are worthy goals as such. Making demands to TPTB and then getting frustrated and disappointed when demands are not can be very counterproductive - anti-war protests did not stop the wars that still continue, they were not about taking initiative and getting the root of the matter, they were purely reactionary failures that only strengthened the self-defeating narrative of left-wing loserism.

Seattle was different. Tahrir was different. What is happening now in NYC and elsewhere is different. They make a difference. Can you smell the change?

[loyalsister]

96. Not in the least

Not having goals as to what specifically needs to change makes it appear random. If they got arrested with leaflets to give the press they might get coverage. As it stands, it appears quite frivolous and incoherent.
If they were trained, they need new leadership.

I understand that it is over economic concerns, and I consider myself a target audience. But nothing I have heard about objectives or demands inspires me to get on the train. I appreciate commitment, but I need to see objectives and proposed solutions to get behind it.

[tama]

102. Understood

It seems you have experience mainly of movements with leadership and central organisation, and you criticize this movement from that background and expectations. But this is a leaderless movement (so they cannot change the leadership as you suggest :)), as was the inspiration of Tahrir square.

Leaderless (or in Greek anarchic) movements are not centrally organized from top down, they self-organize. Self-organizing movements can appear frivolous and incoherent on occations, but they can also act organically, as one body and mind - in very unpredictable and intelligent ways, which is why they can't be controlled which is why TPTB fear them most.

And they are getting coveradge, allthough I don't think getting covaradge from corporate media is the main point of any movement except movement of publicity whores.

[loyalsister]

115. I just think it's a shame

ADAPT went to DC a couple of weeks ago and actually accomplished something. ADAPT has to work within the system because the people with disabilities they represent rely on it.

Longest sit- in in a federal building to date....

< Another crucial turning point was the nationwide sit-in in 1977 of government buildings operated by HEW (the U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare), conceived by Frank Bowe and organized by the American Coalition of Citizens with Disabilities,<6> that led to the release of regulations pursuant to Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. On April 5, 1977, activists began to demonstrate and some sat-in in the offices found in ten of the federal regions including New York City, Los Angeles, Boston, Denver, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Atlanta. The two most noteworthy protests occurred in San Francisco and Washington, D.C. The protesters demanded the signing of regulations for Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.<3><5> There were about 300 people in Washington, D.C. who marched to and then demonstrated inside the HEW building where Secretary Joseph Califano’s office was. He was the person who was to sign the regulations, but was delaying the process. Although he met with a few protest representatives, including Frank Bowe, he still did not sign. This action led many protesters to continue their sit-in overnight, but they then left after 28 hours.<3> The more successful sit-in occurred in San Francisco, led by Judith Heumann.<11> The first day of protests marked the first of a 25-day sit-in. Close to 120 disability activists and protesters occupied the HEW building. Califano finally signed on April 28, 1977. This protest was significant not only because its goal was achieved, but also because it was the foremost concerted effort between people of different disabilities coming together in support of legislation that affected the overall disability population, rather than only specific groups.<3><5> Prior to the 1990 enactment of the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Rehabilitation Act was the most important disability rights legislation in the United States.<4> >

Yes getting coverage is important, because it is an opportunity to get the public on their side.
What good is a movement when it does not motivate\recruit potential allies who are lukewarm? Isn't part of the point to have a lot of people involved?
During the Civil Rights movement this was accomplished by "dressing up" for actions. They sat at the lunch counters in oxfords and khakis as well as dresses. They rode the freedom rides dressed well because they knew that when the much of public saw nicely dressed serious people in contrast to angry people dressed for combat in their oldest torn up jeans it would influence how the people watching the news interpreted the events. And, they were taken seriously. The number of supporters grew and of course eventually legislation was passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_rights_movement

There is n comparison to Egypt. They did have a specific goal.

What is TPTB? I don't think anyone is afraid. For the most part it is a big yawn because complaining without an alternate solution is just tiresome. If there is nothing specifically demanded why would anything change?

[tama]

117. Change is happening

People getting organized is change and happening. People are getting informed. The pressure is building and there is a change of mood. Also on DU.

There is no single alternate solution, there are many voices discussing many alternate solutions, your voice included, if you have something to say. And getting together and talking together and getting self-organized as leaderless movement is a solution by itself. Revolution is not about fixing future with this or that "solution", it is about opening possibilities and creating our future together.

[loyalsister]

120. What should I expect?

What will this "revolution" mean for my life? Given that my tomorrow depends on the available medical treatment I can expect.
What does it mean for the single woman next door who is relying on her next check from her job at McDonalds to feed her kids?

I would love an encouraging answer.

[tama]

122. Something better

Nice surprises. :)

It's been said that we often get what we wish for, so it's important to be carefull of what one wishes. IMHO nice surprise is not a bad wish. And listen to your heart, there is courage.

[loyalsister]

123. Sigh

Reminds me of conversations where positive thinking and prayer would be likely to cure me. I'm personally not inclined to invest in either with expectations. I do wish best of luck to all involved.

[tama]

124. What is your medical problem

if you don't mind me asking and want to tell?

[loyalsister]

126. I have uncontrolled Epilepsy

There is a long history of demonization or faulting the individual who has seizures. Pray and be happy has been recommended more than once.
In reality, medication makes some seizures less severe, so I need to take it without interruption.

[tama]

129. I'm glad that medication helps

at least some. Epilepsy has been also called the sacred disease, at least better than demonization, I guess. But I have no advice to give you concerning your medical condition and don't feel it's my place or what you need from me. Just that I feel for you and it's been good talking with you, loyalsister. I trust that you have lot to give to those near you. :)

[loyalsister]

134. Yes, Hypocrates

His assessment of seizures led him to his ideas about the mind- body connection. I am comfortable with my situation given access to med attention and drugs as needed.
Thanks for a good civil conversation.

[jberryhill]

133. I need new glasses

I saw that as "uncontrolled ecstacy" and I was thinking, "Damn, that sounds pretty good."

[G_j]

84. we're glad you decided to stay home! nt

[Quantess]

89. Oh, come on. You never seriously entertained the idea of joining them.

[backscatter712]

93. You're snickering at the way cops use torture on protesters...

Sorry, I'm calling out your framing.

Because what else is deliberate over-tightening of zip-tie cuffs (which acts as a tourniquet, cuts off circulation, can cause tissue and nerve damage, not to mention intense pain that increases over time - a very effective form of torture)

Or how about the routine use of pepper-spray on non-resisting, non-law-violating protesters (got that one on video.) Oh yeah, what is police pepper spray designed to do? CAUSE PAIN! That's torture.

If you want to snicker at the use of torture by police officers on civilians, Free Republic and Red State are that way... --->

[rapturedbyrobots]

138. I'm not snickering at the abuse

I've seen police abuse. Real beatings resulting in broken bones and collapsed lungs. My brother was tazed repeatedly while in handcuffs. I have no love whatsoever for cops.

But if you're gonna fight the cops. then fight them and make it explicitly about fighting back against police abuse. Don't say you're protesting economic injustice, then half-assedly provoke someone who's itching to kick your ass, and then whine about it.

[rapturedbyrobots]

140. much more effective than complaining to the world

about a scraped finger

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5007092

[LanternWaste]

97. I imagine one of the greatest human capabilities

I imagine one of the greatest human capabilities is to see a thing through any forced perspective which better validates our own opinions of that thing. You see a circus, whilst others see something completely different. Sans objective evidence, I'll go with convention on this one...

I did however, enjoy the fictional melodrama you edited into what's been happening.

[snooper2]

99. This is not a structure! THIS IS NOT A STRUCTURE!!!

Everybody gather in the middle..

It's going down lol

[kctim]

106. I don't care what's going on with the side show

they are not representing me or the majority of Americans.

[sabrina 1]

109. You got it backward, the cops launched a war on the protesters.

And you're right, it was a disgrace. Hopefully some of those cops will be in trouble for their brutality towards innocent citizens excerising their rights. Don't worry about going, this only increased support for the protesters as did the cop attack on Wednesday making their numbers grow even more.

Chief of police claims he can shoot down airplanes. Wonder why he felt the need to say that?

NYPD, defending the Wall St. criminals! NY's not-so-finest as the world got to see this weekend.

[xiamiam]

114. yes, dont leave your desk and put yourself at risk and be with these 'clowns'

much more effective to stay put and criticize
:shrug:

[lunatica]

121. Why don't you join them and help out instead of criticizing them from your computer

And by the way, they're still there and still passionate. Do they have to be perfect to get your help? They wouldn't need you around then would they.

[Avalux]

125. "what i was hoping would be an inspiring moment"

Can you describe what this moment you were hoping for would look like? What I see is a group of very brave people standing up to the status quo; to a system which is no longer working and is hurting the people of this country.

What have you done, or are you happy with the way things are?

[rapturedbyrobots]

139. how about a public forum

in the realest sense. in public, open to the public. where anyone is free to come discuss alternatives to the current economic system and/or strategies for dismantling and limiting the damage inflicted by the current one. that sounds much better than just sitting around waiting to get harassed by the cops.

[Fire Walk With Me]

127. 127 posts, no Recommendations. Things that make you go "Hmmmm..."

[babydollhead]

130. maybe because the OP makes it sound like a mockery

[trumad]

131. Well---nobody likes douchebag threads.

[Ignis]

136. Amy Goodman: "Why 'Occupy Wall Street' Makes Sense"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/21/occupy-wall-street-amy-goodman

[Matariki]

142. What a GREAT idea! #OccupyWallStreet should pose as Tea Baggers!

Claim to be teabaggers, call the media, occupy Wall Street. The media will swarm!

:rofl:

[rapturedbyrobots]

143. Actually

They should dress up like bankers. Then the media would be forced into showing pics of the police abusing 'respectable' people in fancy suits. This is an idea i've had for a long time, but no one ever takes it seriously. One of the biggest failures of the left in general - image & message control.

[Matariki]

148. That is a great idea too.

Photos like that would freak people out.

[rapturedbyrobots]

154. heard something really good on MSNBC

during their coverage of the police brutality.

'every day in america police cross the line and abuse citizens. every day in america police get away with that. white america was shocked at what they saw police doing to rodney king. black america would have LOVED to have beed shocked by what they saw police do to rodney king. but black america could only have been shocked if what the police did to rodney king was something completely alien to their community experience.'

it's actually a position of privilege to be shocked by what's happening to the protesters. this is every day bullshit for people like me. so, no... i don't have a sympathy reflex for a scraped finger, or cuffs that are too tight. like i said...if you're going to willingly put yourself through the shit that other people go through every day of their lives to make a point. power to you. just don't bitch about the experience and try to make yourself some kind of martyr. there are ways to get your message out effectively without making the protest ABOUT the useful diversion (for the bankers) of police brutality, which is to be expected. watch & learn:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x619516

[rapturedbyrobots]

155. the way to shock

white america.

police going rodney king on a business man.

[Jamastiene]

156. Plus, the police won't attack if they think it is teabaggers.

Bonus!

[seabeyond]

145. you ought to seriously educate yourself. i am sure when other countries started wth the few,

there were people on the sideline embarrassed adn entertained. and it grew. as it grows, hopefully it will be more defined. serious issues in our word today. i think it is more embarrassing not being aware of that fact.

[H2O Man]

146. oh

[Modern_Matthew]

147. The only side show here is the halfwit police that were incapable of doing anything else in life...

Solving every problem with the instincts of a Neanderthal and manhandling nonviolent protesters over some petty old law rotting on the books.

[Drew Richards]

149. I have never read such an UGLY ANTI-Democratic thread such as this in 4 years

Your point is worthless, invalid and insulting to many of us here on DU...for good reason.

If we subscribe to your tripe, minorities and women would still be second class citizens and unable to vote...

Children would still be considered slave labor and allowed to work 60 hours a week instead of be educated.

Citizens would not have a minimum wage.

Citizens would not have weekends off.

Citizens would not have 40 hour work weeks...

Shall I go on? Or are my examples too obtuse for your razor brilliance?

Dude I wouldn't want you out there, you would be the first to run crying to momma instead of standing your ground.

While you brag of things i'm sure you have never done I can say I was gassed on the Elipse in 1970 fighting for change and even THEN things were not CUT and DRY like a contract or a military plan which seems to be the only way you would get your dainty feet involved.

Please, don't bother supporting any protest, only the worthy should attend.

[rapturedbyrobots]

151. only the worthy

that's REALLY democratic of you.

[rapturedbyrobots]

152. my point isn't anti-democratic

my point is that this is paint-by-number politics. there's nothing new or original about ANY of this.

[DireStrike]

150. I think they are actually winning the message war

I agree with your thought process but that "same old hackneyed script" seems to be working this time...

I imagine people are getting so pissed off at the establishment that they will accept any excuse to condemn it. Maybe not everyone, but certainly more people than would have in the past. I've personally noted people sympathizing with the protesters who I would have assumed were callous to the bone.