Rampage in Barber Shop. "Geepers, we're sorry. Muffy would never hurt a fly."

[valerief]

Pit Bull Goes on a Rampage in a Barber Shop
http://www.cynical-c.com/2011/09/25/pit-bull-goes-on-a-rampage-in-a-barber-shop/

At another forum I visit, someone posted today:

I once went to a friends house to fix his computer. He had a pitbull, and so I told him there was no way I was stepping through the front door until he tied it up out back. I don't trust pitbulls, period.

He swore up and down that it was the greatest dog he ever had, wouldn't hurt a fly, friendly as anything. "Oh, the kids play with him all the time!" He had a two year old and a 4 year old at the time.

So he tied it up out back, I fixed his computer, life went on.

Two weeks later, I read an article on the front page of our local newspaper. "2 year old mauled by pitbull"... His two year old daughter required hundreds of stitches and years of cosmetic surgery to put her face back together after his pitbull freaked out and latched onto her head.

I was never so glad that I told him to tie it up out back. I just wish he had listened to me about the dog, it would have spared his daughter a lifetime of restorative surgeries.

And someone else posted today:

Down the block from me, this couple owned a pair of pitbulls. The couple were antgonistic to a woman in the building and one day the pitbulls mauled her to death. One owner was a lawyer and he went to jail. It became at least a national news story.

And someone else posted today:

I've heard too many stories from experienced dog handlers who say they just can't read a pit bull. That the dog will be happy and relaxed one minute and then in attack mode with no warning. It used to be the local dog shelters were filled with lab mixes, but now our local shelters are filled with pit bulls and their mixes. It gives you some idea of how big the dogfighting problem is in the country. I'd never even seen or heard of a pit bull thirty years ago and now you see them all over the place. Some areas have banned the breed and I'm not sure that isn't a smart move. I know some people swear their dogs are sweet and perfectly stable, but there have been enough stories of pit bulls that go wild to scare me away from the breed and/or any mutt containing the breed.

[HopeHoops]

1. Border collies and shelties are cute and sweet.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. I have border collies - they are not all sweet.

Some of them have plain nasty temperments - but I don't think one has ever killed anyone.

[Major Nikon]

12. My border collie growled at a child once

He also will go absolutely ape shit over other dogs, and I haven't had much luck training that out of him. Other than that, he has a great temperament and is normally pretty happy go lucky, but given the right set of circumstances he might hurt someone.

[Sheepshank]

80. My nephew 6 at the time was mauled by a collie. Head/facial scars 30 years later.

[anarch]

2. any dog can go crazy and murder you at any time

this is why I firmly believe we should kill all the dogs on the planet.

Hell, let's just make it all animals, period.

[piratefish08]

5. 'cept this one.

[johnaries]

10. Oh, yeah? Did you see what he did to that poor cattle rancher? nt

[Throckmorton]

53. My pug has just about finished her personal a-bomb

She made it out of the plutonium she scraped off of my shoes.

When its do she is gonna nuke the cats from orbit, once my cow finishes the single stage to orbit booster she is building in the neighbors garage.

Damn Straight all Dogs will kill you in a second.

[truebrit71]

102. ..I swear I catch my dog sometimes looking at me kinda funny....

..sort of like....'one day buddy, and you'll get yours...but until then can I get a treat and a belly rub?'

[MadHound]

3. Well, it goes to show you that dog ignorance is common in this country

Your second snippet mistakenly attributes the death to pitbulls, but the dogs were actually Presa Canarios. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Whipple> Such misidentification is common, and pitbulls get blamed for a lot of other dogs' attacks.

And for every OMG PITBULLS ATE MY BABY stories, there are a dozen loving, caring, playful pitbulls who are valued members of their families. The are gentle with kids, and wonderful family dogs. In fact, the AKC ranked pitbulls as the top dog for families for decades, up until the big pitbull scare swept over the country.

Pits have been done a disservice. First by those who raise them to fight. Second, by the media sensationalizing these "bad boy dogs". I long for the day when another breed takes their place as the "bad boy dog" and pits can go back to what they were originally, goofy, funny, loving family pets.

[adhd_what_huh]

7. Think about what you wrote.

"And for every OMG PITBULLS ATE MY BABY stories, there are a dozen loving, caring, playful pitbulls who are valued members of their families"

[MadHound]

8. Think about it yourself. n/t

[tkmorris]

20. I think his point is your math

According to your statement it could read that 1 Pit Bull in 13 will eat the family baby. Them's not good odds.

Of course I also realize that's not what you meant.

[FourScore]

89. I got bit int the face as a child by a wiener dog.

The physical scar is gone but the psychological one still remains.

BAN THE WIENERS!!!

[adhd_what_huh]

103. it's funny until you child has their face bitten off.

[FourScore]

124. Actually, I'm not laughing.

I really did get bit in the face when I was a little girl. I was scarred (and scared)for years. I am still very afraid of dogs, even little weiner dogs. My 82-year old mother, while out for a walk, got attacked and viciously bitten by her neighbor's Shiatsu. It got a huge chunk out of my Mom's leg, causing her to need constant care for a few weeks and tons of reconstructive surgery. I am not laughing at all.

[SteveM]

9. MSM is good at doing this. Another example:

"All AK-47 All the Time."

[rustydog]

13. The breed you mentioned is also known as a "killer" breed so your point is moot

defending the indefensible is a tad bit lame.
I am a bit prejudiced myself as I was bit in the face whhen I was a child. Nicest fucking dog in the neighborhood until that day....

[MadHound]

15. I would put my trust in two things,

First, the experts at the AKC, and the experiences I have had myself with the breed.

I've had two bites in my life. One was my grandmother's pug, when I was a kid and getting into his face and space too much(he bit my face ironically, right below my eye, I still carry that scar). The other was the dachsund who latched onto my little finger when I was working at a vet's office. If I had judged both breeds by singular instances, then I wouldn't have have fostered either breed. But then again, I don't judge entire groups by the acts of individuals.

The AKC did recommend pits as the best family dog for decades. The only reason they still aren't is because of the public uproar and media circus.

I've lived with pits all my adult life, and frankly I've never had any problems. I've watched in amusement as the small kids of friends have played, pushed, pulled and wrestled with these lovable dogs, and frankly there are few, if any dogs I would trust more with a small child than a pit.

Perhaps you are letting your self admitted prejudices get in the way of reality:shrug:

[Erose999]

78. My grandma has a toy poodle that was viscious if you got close to her chew toys. And a pomeranian

that bit me at least once a week between 1985 and 1989.

Its not the dogs, its the owners who let their dogs behave that way.

[MadHound]

79. Did you bite the dog back, or discipline the dog in anyway?

I had a pit mix that literally showed up on my doorstep, that I took in. She was a sweet, gentle dog, but was very guarded about her food, probably traumatized from feeding experiences with her previous owner/situation.

Anyway, one night about a week after taking her in, she was on the bed chewing on her rawhide bone. My wife went in to go to sleep, and went to move the bone. My dog considered that bone to be food, and being protective of her food, bit my wife, drawing blood.

I immediately wrestled my dog to the ground, nipped her ear, grabbed her by the scruff of her neck with my teeth and growled deep, low and threatening. I then banished her to the kitchen for the rest of the night. She got the message because I was talking in her language, saying that her action was not acceptable, that I was the dominant dog, and there is a price she pays for being bad. Dogs, being social creatures, hate being banished.

From then on out, she never growled, snarled or any such thing when we messed with her rawhide bone or food. She was a wonderful, sweet dog whom I still miss to this day.

You're right, it is the owners who need to be held responsible. If you're going to have a dog, you've got to learn how to communicate with it, and dog's language, while having a lot in common with humans, is still vastly different and we've got to learn it.

[Erose999]

86. I was really little at the time so I couldn't dicipline granny's dogs. She would just say "bad dog"

and scold them. Nothing that would have asserted her authority in terms the dog would understand.

[KurtNYC]

92. you never had any problems? but the guy who wrote post 79 did n/t

[MadHound]

95. I don't consider a nip a week into a new dog relationship a "problem"

You're just reaching, aren't you.

[KurtNYC]

96. I don't consider an aggressive bite that draws blood to be a nip

Just pointing out that your posts contradict each other. You know the difference between a nip and a hard bite so who is reaching?

If one of my dogs draws blood from someone I'm getting sued. And I will lose so I'm far from the only one who thinks aggressive bites are a problem.

[MadHound]

97. No, my posts don't contradict each other,

But nice try. The only problem I see with my posts is your failure in correctly judging the situation. Of course that's natural, you weren't there, but I was. Of course the other problem my be your refusal to accept the judgment of the person who was there, namely me.

[NeedleCast]

113. DU should give you plenty of experience that expert opinions are easily ignored in the face of

OMG PITBULL ATTACKS!!

[valerief]

16. For every Pitbull Ate My Baby, there are ten pitbulls who have yet to eat babies. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

28. +1. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

29. ,

[cigsandcoffee]

41. I don't like those odds at all. n/t

[EmeraldCityGrl]

90. I've had Frenchies since the 80's. Lately I've noticed...

they've become the new "it" dog. I see them in commercials and movies all the time.

This breed has very specific needs and is not the ideal pet for every home. Most people
just don't research the breed before bringing one home which can be disastrous for the
dog and the family.

[KurtNYC]

91. the problem isn't so much that some 'raise them to fight' it is that some bred them to fight

Vick for example bred aggressive, high stamina dogs with other aggressive high stamina dogs.

Selective breeding works.

[XemaSab]

125. They've all been bred to fight

It's what the breed was created to do.

[Coyote_Bandit]

4. It's the owners and handlers

that generally are the problem not the dogs. The dogs become a problem when the owners do not or cannot adequately train, exercise, socialize, house ot otherwise care for the dog.

[Pisces]

14. Its the same gun argument, not the gun but the person. Sorry, but this is an aggressive breed and

an animal. We have no way to control or predict animals, you can go by statistics. Statistically speaking you are more likely to be attacked or mauled by a pit bull than a golden retriever. Why do people get outraged when someone posts the facts or the truth about this breed.

If you have a great pit bull good for you, but don't try to convince people not to believe their lying eyes, when reading stories and statistics about these aggressive dogs.

[Coyote_Bandit]

18. You might be surprised to learn that research

has shown the beloved and popular little dachshund has been rated the most aggressive dog breed.
http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/the-most-aggressive-dog-breeds-dachshund-1

I know a professional trainer that has had multiple champion pits for the last decade - at least one of which is a working therapy dog.

My dogs? A small little Japanese chin and a wirehaired dachshund mix (that is training to be a therapy dog).

[Pisces]

24. Thank you for the link. My mother has a dashund and a cocker spaniel. Both can be nippy to strangers

The big difference is you can kick these dogs across the room, unlike a charging pit bull or rottweiller.

[valerief]

22. Thanks. Someday I hope they'll be banned and I can take a walk down the street again. nt

[Coyote_Bandit]

37. 21 out of 100 dachshunds and 7 out of 100 pit bulls

have attempted to bite strangers.

Pits are more dangerous because they are physically larger.

But they are not more aggressive.

Most dog aggression is fear based - and is an indicator that the owner has not appropriately trained and socialized their dog with strangers and other dogs.

[Major Nikon]

136. I think you're right on this

I was raised around pit bulls and you don't have to look hard to find a more aggressive breed, however there's more to the story than just aggressiveness. The pit bull I was raised with was a great dog around kids. I used to ride him like a horse all over the place. I saw him kill another dog that wandered into his yard. Within seconds he locked onto the dog's neck and didn't release until the other dog was dead, even after 4 grown men tried to pull and pry him off. I've seen lots of dog fights. I've never seen one like that. I was probably around 10 at the time and I'll remember it to the end of my days. I shudder to think about a human being on the receiving end of the wrath of a dog like that.

[MadHound]

76. YOU many have no way to control or predict animals,

But that is YOUR problem. I can easily predict and control what animals do, at least with dogs, cats, horses and cows. You simply have to know what indicators to look for, interpret what the animal is saying. Just because an animal doesn't speak doesn't mean that they don't communicate.

I've dealt with vicious animals, and haven't been hurt. I also insure, by talking with my animals, in terms they truly understand, good behavior and no viciousness.

So please, don't make generalizations, speak for yourself.

[valerief]

17. No. It's the breed. nt

[Coyote_Bandit]

19. Ummmm......No

Research has shown that dachshunds are the most aggressive breed.
http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/the-most-aggressive-dog-breeds-dachshund-1

[valerief]

23. No, pitbulls kill far, far more people each year than hotdogs. nt

[Coyote_Bandit]

27. Did you even bother to look at the research

done by the University of Pensylvania on this very topic?

Most dogs - including pits and doxies - can be trained. Their owners unfortunately are all too often too lazy or ignorant to make the effort. An aggressive or poorly behaved dog is generally a symptom of an irresponsible owner.

[valerief]

30. I've seen statistics on breeds that kill humans. When I post it, people say it's a lie.

Are you saying your link says dachshunds kill more humans than pitbulls kill humans?

[Coyote_Bandit]

42. 21 out of 100 dachshunds and 7 out of 100 pit bulls

have attempted to bite strangers.

Pits are more dangerous because they are physically larger.

But they are not more aggressive.

Most dog aggression is fear based - and is an indicator that the owner has not appropriately trained and socialized their dog with strangers and other dogs.

Just because pits have the ability to inflict more severe injuries does not mean that they are more aggressive. You are confusing the nature of the injuries that are inflicted with the frequency of bite attacks.

You are also blaming the dogs when their owners may not have trained or socialized them appropriately - or when the owner put the dog in a situation where it was likely to become aggressive.

[valerief]

46. You don't seem to understand the difference between bite and kill, do you? nt

[Coyote_Bandit]

54. Ummmm......

Hating all members of a particular breed - without any consideration of their individual breeding, training, socialization, environment - or their temperment and history is very much like judging people for no other reason than the color of thier skin.


Six out of 100 great danes bite strangers. That's not a statistically significant difference compared to the 7 out of 100 pits who do likewise. The danes and pits have comparable levels of aggressive behavior and the danes have greater capacity to kill based on their size. Hate and bigotry don't have to be rational - and that is why folks demonize pits rather than danes.

[XemaSab]

69. What's the point of having a dog of a particular breed if you're going to deny that breeds

have personalities?

Hating all members of a particular breed - without any consideration of their individual breeding, training, socialization, environment - or their temperment and history is very much like judging people for no other reason than the color of thier skin.

Jack Russells are hyper, border collies are smart, yorkies can be yappy... I don't see how any of this is controversial.

[DirkGently]

110. For one thing, no real breed has "vicious killer" as part of its personality.

As far as breed temperment goes, viciousness is not part of the pit bull profile. They're terriers, which are energetic, devoted to their people, and stubborn. Great qualities that become horrible when COMBINED with viciousness. But backyard breeders can make any powerful dog into a dangerous animal.

AKC apparently does sampled temperment tests, and several different breeds collectively called "pit bulls" typically fare as well or better as other breeds in terms of human compatibility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Staffordshire_Terrier

If you were to attempt something so ghoulish, ignorant and cruel as to try to destroy all "pit bulls," the only animals you could really identify would be carefully bred animals with records identifying them as such.

So you execute the RCA Victor dog, and the Our Gang dog. Show dogs. Mascots. Carefully socialized family pets. Meanwhile, the crazed 190-lb chow/akita/poodle mongrel down the street chained to a tree remains, waiting for the moment it can avenge its painful life on whoever gets close enough.

So next comes the call to eliminate "pit bull type" dogs, which now just means, "scary-looking dog" to most people, including owners who seek out dangerous dogs.

Also interesting to note the American Veterinary Medical Association favors state-by-state legislation regarding dangerous animals, as long as they are NOT breed-specific.

No one's fear justifies destroying everything that looks or sounds scary to them, which is apparently what the OP is proposing.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

56. Let's see some stats of other dogs killing healthy adults. There's nothing that compares ...

.... to any other breed.

Nothing.

Let's talk about serious maulings, loss of limb and killing of healthy adults. Save the vicious Dachshund canard.

[Coyote_Bandit]

59. Again

a failure to distinguish between frequency of attacks (i.e., aggressiveness) and extent of injuries which is a result of the size differential between dachshunds and pits. Dachshunds are three times more likely than a pit bull to bite a stranger. Pits are more likely to attack another dog than to bite a stranger.

Did you know that the aggressiveness of great danes and pits is comparable? Six of 100 great danes bite strangers while 7 of 100 pits do likewise. Statistically, 93 of 100 pits do not bite people. And I bet that dane could do far more damage than that pit. But for whatever reason (or lack thereof) the great danes are socially acceptable.

Sorry. Judging an entire breed of dogs - as opposed to the individual dogs within the group seems an awfully lot like saying that people of color are somehow inferior.

There are good and bad in every breed. And there are far, far, far more pits that don't bite than those who do.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

60. If it's only about size, where are all the killings of healthy adults by Great Danes?

Presumably, according to your size hypothesis, there should be a rash of news stories and 911 calls available regarding GDs killing healthy adults.

Let's see them.

[LeftyMom]

63. What's the population of great danes versus dogs pit bulls/mixes/dogs that sort of look like pits?

I could probably find more stories about people in the US being killed by domestic dogs than by tigers. It doesn't mean dogs are more dangerous, it just means we're a lot more likely to run into dogs than tigers.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

65. You'll have to take that up with the other poster. They brought up GDs.

Why are Pits so over represented, in the killing of healthy adults, than any other dog breed?

[LeftyMom]

67. They're enormously common.

I know a dozen people or more people who have pit bulls, and one who has a gd (who also has many pit bulls.) Easily half of the dogs at my local municipal shelter are pits and mixes. They're very common dogs.

[Coyote_Bandit]

64. Here's a link that breaks down dog bite fatalities for 2009

You wil note that one of the deaths was from a great dane attack.

http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/01/2009-dog-bite-fatalities-final-report.html

The findings:
"In total, there were 33 dog-bite related fatalities (32 events) in 2009.

-- 16 different dog breeds, or mixes thereof, were involved (counting 'mixed breed' as it's own category).

-- 9 cases involved chained dogs

-- 8 cases were in areas that were affected with high poverty rates

-- 4 cases involved packs of feral or near feral dogs

-- 3 involved newborns

-- of the 5 incidents that were covered by 150 media sources or more, 2 involved 'pit bulls', 1 involved a Rottweiler, 1 involved a pit bull/akita mix (that was widely reported as a 'pit bull mix') and 1 involved a Weimaraner.

-- There were 7 incidents that were covered by fewer than 6 media outlets, the breeds involved were Husky, Chow Chow, Husky, Boxers, Australian Shepherd/Blue Heeler mixes and a Great Dane."



Each incident is detailed and each victim named. Be sure and read to the end.

And, yes, as in political matters, not all dog attacks are created equally. Some get more coverage than others. And some go without mention.

[Coyote_Bandit]

66. Here's a link that breaks down dog bite fatalities for 2010

http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/dog-bite-fatalities-2010/

The findings:
"There were 34 different dog bite fatalities in 2010.

--- 9 different breeds of dogs, or mixes thereof (counting all "mixed breeds" as a separate breed).

--- 4 cases involved chained dogs

-- 12 cases were in areas impacted by high poverty rates

-- 6 cases involved pack of roaming dogs - another 4 involved a pack of dogs that were owned by the victim.

-- 5 involved newborns

-- at least 8 involved dogs with a noted history of aggression"




Again we see infants and toddlers being left alone with the dog, children wandering outside unattended and up to a chained dog, attacks by groups of dogs (including roaming dogs). Again we see multiple breeds, chained dogs, dogs with a history of aggression and a higher incidence in high povert areas.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

68. That blog, as scientific as it is NOT, helps make my argument ...

... as to the over representation of Pits in deaths of adults.

I will note his use of scare quotes whenever he mentions a Pit related fatality. Apparently, the identification is only suspect where it is applied to Pits.

Anyway, the blog isn't much use. Several of his links went to dead-ends.

[Coyote_Bandit]

70. Which proves the point of several folks in this thread

Dogs that attack are identified as pits almost by default. Other breeds - and mixed breeds physically resemble pits.

Dead end links to news reports that are at over a year old. Yeah, that's a big fucking surprise. Not.

You've got victim names, ages and locations. You could do your own damned research.






And, BTW, don't expect an invitation to my next dinner party.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

77. Which proves what point? That the author of that blog believes ...

... it is impossible to identify a Pit? SO any Pit related death is a case of mistaken identity? All others IDs are a sure thing and do not require scare quotes when writing about them?

Does he place quotes around any mention of his own pets? The guy is a clown.

[valerief]

84. A lot of pit bulls in that list. nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

87. Oh but they are "pit bulls" and not pit bulls.

When ever a pit bull kills a healthy adult, they become "pit bulls."

Even if the victim's son is screaming in to the 911 call about how their two full blooded pit bulls are killing his mother in the yard.

[DirkGently]

112. "Pit bull" is a bigger canard. Covers at least three breeds & endless unnamed mixes.

The "breed" involved in a dog attack all becomes a lot of murky nonsense when it's reported in the paper. The term refers to several different breeds for starters. Which "one" is this "dangerous breed." And most street dogs, particularly the ones roaming loose biting people are mixes.

What "pit bull" really means these days is a big, scary dog of indeterminate origins ... that attacked someone.

So all that can be said is that larger vicious dogs pose a greater threat than smaller vicious dogs. Pomeranians would maul some people too ... if they could only reach high enough.

So we restrict what? Big dogs? Big scary-looking dogs? Big scary dogs that the neighbors think is a "pit bull?"

Focusing on what the big, scary, crazy dog is supposedly called is just inescapably idiotic. The problem with vicious dogs roaming the neighborhood is that they're a) vicious and b) roaming the neighborhood.

All the rest of the postulating about "dangerous breeds" is a lot of fearful, judgmental nonsense.

[uppityperson]

121. What "pit bull" really means these days is a big, scary dog of indeterminate origins ... that attack

"What "pit bull" really means these days is a big, scary dog of indeterminate origins ... that attacked someone."

Thank you. And indeed, focusing on one type of dog ignores the larger issue of roaming dogs and bad owners.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

133. It's not mistaken identity when the son in screaming on the 911 call....

...that his two red nosed full blooded pits are killing his mother in the yard.

Fast forward to 6:30

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=42a_1191356168

"We have two full-blooded red-nosed pits and they just attacked our mom," a second son is heard saying on one of the 911 calls. "We can't get to my mom and my brother just went out there and they attacked him too. They don't need to get out of the ambulance or the dogs will try to get them, too."

Or maybe these "pit bull fans" whose dogs "never hurt anyone" - until they killed their adult daughter - don't know what a pit bull actually is??

http://www.youtube.com/user/zupf#p/u/0/FihXa-S2kkM

[DirkGently]

134. Which of the 3 breeds of dogs called "pit bulls" was meant? Which one did you want to ban?

This sort of anecdotal "proof" trying to condemn an entire breed of dog (or in this case, three breeds, plus mixes and minomers) is a particularly ugly kind of fallacy. It's the same thing you hear from racial and religious bigots.

"Here's another hand-picked, detail-free anecdote that supposedly proves the 'badness' of some entire group." Here's another bombing that proves Muslims are all terrorists. Here's another riot in a minority neighborhood to prove "those" people are uncivilized.

How many "pit bulls" or dogs called that are out there? How many are well behaved and how many vicious? How many attacks are due to people breeding and keeping vicious dogs deliberately, which can be accomplished with dozens of breeds and mixes?

It's baloney. Any dog can bite and many other dogs besides "pit bulls" bite and hurt people. Half a dozen people here have provided anecdotes about serious trauma caused by other breeds. The only person I know with dog bite trauma bears the scars of a family friend's Labrador that bit his face as a child.

So we already know there's nothing special about the "danger" of pit bulls. What's special is this strange human impulse to turn their fear into irrational group hatred and a corresponding desire to wipe ALL of something off the face of the Earth "just in case."

You can line up all the bad dog stories you want -- none of it adds up to a case for banning a breed of dog.

Edit: By the way, there's no such thing as a "full-blooded red-nosed pit." Nose color is just that -- a color -- and people who think it has something to do with the type of dog are wrong. So, no, the owners don't know what their own dog is. Not that surprising really.

http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html

[Hassin Bin Sober]

135. First of all, I'm not for breed bans. I just think people are stupid to keep them.

And even stupid(er) to deny what they are dealing with and treat the dog like a cuddly fur toy that could never hurt anyone. Or treat it with the same caution as a min-pin.


To say they aren't any more dangerous than, say, the proverbial dachshund or chihuahua, is bullshit. Any dog can kill a 3 month old baby.

The links I posted relate to killings of full grown adults. THAT'S the particularly troubling behavior of that breed. A 40 or 50 pound dog killing an otherwise healthy adult.

WTF? Here. From your own friggin link. I swear, discussing this topic can be like talking to a wall. Now a "red nosed" pit doesn't exist? So you latch on to one small part of the OWNER'S description of their FULL BLOODED PIT and content yourself with the knowledge that this couldn't be a pit - or something. Whatever helps you get by.

There are, of course, very ethical breeders that produce blue and red
nosed dogs. There are many fine, healthy, stable examples of these
color varieties out there.

"serious trauma caused by other breeds"

Where are the anecdotes by DUers who know adults KILLED by other breeds.

[Chan790]

127. Actually...

per-capita both Irish Wolfhounds and the various Russian Steppe Dogs (ie. Ovcharkas) are far far more lethal. I wonder why?

No, wait. I don't. It's because they're fucking massive animals bred to hunt and kill other large canid-related species...specifically, wolves and bears. It's nigh impossible to defend oneself against a 4' tall at the shoulder dog weighing 220lbs+. People give them respect and a wide-berth & they're some of the most gentle and calm dogs ever...usually. Good with kids. Both have reputations of being fiercely protective of their owners though. Training takes most aggression out of them. (Sounds like another dog breed I'm familiar with. :shrug:)

Yet, we don't hear even 10s of stories a year about attacks by these dogs. I wonder why?

No, wait. I don't. It's because there aren't enough of them for sensationalistic journalism to latch onto.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

132. Links to support those claims??

[Drahthaardogs]

52. No it is not.

It is the breeders who put genetically inferior dogs together to make genetically inferior pups. A good bulldog is a mentally sound creature.

[mike_c]

6. your middle reference is mistaken....

The victim cited was Diane Whipple, and the dogs who killed her were not pit bulls, but rather Presa Canario dogs named Bane (male) and Hera (female). I won't comment on the general substance of your OP because I don't have much experience with dogs generally (although my 80+ year old mother owns a female pitbull who's now about seven years old and has always been an exemplary pet).

[valerief]

21. That's correct. They were vicious and bred for dog fighting.

http://www.sanderskennels.com/Presa_Canario_Breed_Standard.html

I think it's a matter of odds. The odds of a pitbull mauling/killing you is incredibly higher (per statistics) than most other breeds. If there weren't those bad aggressive genes in them, they'd be normal dogs. Many, if not all, aren't normal dogs but a nightmare waiting to happen.

[Gormy Cuss]

57. Presa Canarios aren't pit bulls.

They're a lot bigger too.


eta: FYI, the Diane Whipple anecdote says that a male lawyer went to jail because of it, but it was the woman lawyer in the couple who was convicted of murder and sent to prison. That detail is not obscure to people in Northern CA, never mind to people who live a few blocks away.

[XemaSab]

72. So you think people shouldn't own dogs that were bred for fighting?

:shrug:

[Honeycombe8]

107. Those dogs were bred for attacking, not fighting other dogs.

Like Dobermans and Rotties used to be trained to attack people, these dogs were likewise trained. Not like pit bulls, who are trained to fight other dogs. Not that one is safe and the other is not. Just making a distinction that a dog trained to attack human beings should probably not be allowed to live in an apartment building and city, where it is surrounded by people.

[uppityperson]

120. You admit you are using a non-pitbull to prove pitbulls are dangerous. huh

[Honeycombe8]

26. Yeah, I thought he was referring to that story I saw on TV...they weren't pit bulls.

I saw part of the trial on TV. It was a national story, big news. The dogs were actually trained attack dogs, too, and had been violent toward that lady neighbor before. The owners are absolute scumbags...seriously...who didn't care much about anything in the world but themselves. Those dogs killed the neighbor lady. Those are HUGE dogs, and there were two of them. She didn't have a chance.

The couple ended up in prison, I think. They had been repeatedly warned and had ample notice that their dogs were dangerous (they bought them from a guy who trains attack dogs). They also showed no remorse afterwards. They were just sickos who didn't care.

[LeftyMom]

35. They didn't buy them, they were their white supremacist adopted son's dogs. He was in Pelican Bay.

Real winners.

[Gormy Cuss]

58. An FYI for those not from CA: Pelican Bay is where the most dangerous prisoners are housed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelican_Bay_State_Prison

Real winners is putting in mildly.

[Honeycombe8]

106. I see. But I remember they identified the person that the dogs were b ought from...

the person trained that breed (mastiffs) to be attack dogs. Not guard dogs or watch dogs, but dogs that attack (presumably humans and not just other dogs).

I also have a vague recollection that those weren't the only ones of that breed that they had had...something happened to one of their dogs, and they had to get a replacement dog.

Truly awful people.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I especially like it when they try to blame the 2 year old who got mauled.

"It's the kid's fault for egging my sweet little poochums on!!!"

[valerief]

32. My neighbor (now gone) who was breeding pit bulls for fighting actually told me

when his pit bulls wandered on my driveway, "They wouldn't hurt a fly." Really. He was breeding them for fighting and told me that. They all say that crap. Some even believe it.

[LeftyMom]

31. I'm totally convinced by your unattributed quotes from cranks on the internet,

telling stories about their mother's sister's cousin's neighbor's mailman's dog going nuts. Really, that's some epic evidence right there.

PS The quote in the middle? It's a well known semi-local story and I recognize it. The dogs weren't pit bulls, they were presa canarios. Details matter.

[valerief]

34. Pit bulls kill humans. Too often. More than other dogs. Period. nt

[LeftyMom]

36. Do you have a link to back that up? Maybe one with German Shepherds or Viszlas this time?

The only verifiable story you posted didn't even involve pit bulls. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. So stop. First rule of holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging.

[valerief]

44. Nope. Not again. Someone always says the govt statistics are wrong. I won't give it again. nt

[LeftyMom]

49. Statistics the CDC quit compiling because the methodology was so flawed that they were worthless?

Feel free to cite those. Really.

[Gormy Cuss]

62. The "govt statistics" on this is the CDC 20 year study.

The one where the CDC cautioned against using their counts as evidence of which breeds are more dangerous.

[Honeycombe8]

39. Pits are actually more anti-dog than anti-human. I think it may be true...

that a pit bite may kill more often than other dog bites, but pits are not the dogs that bite the most often. I think it's the Chow, then German Shepherd, then Rottweiler, or something like that.

And let's not forget that the stats include pits trained to be aggressive and violent...not ordinary neighborhood dogs.

It used to be the Doberman that people wanted extinct, I think, because they were trained by the bad men to fight or something. But then their attentions changed to pit bulls. Or maybe it was the Rottie. It was one of those other breeds.

My vet tells me that Dobermans make one of the best family dogs.

[valerief]

45. I'm talking about the breed that kills humans most. For every 100 pitbulls and mixed pits

that kill humans, 50 Rottweillers kill humans, 10 German Shepherds kill humans, and something like 3 of every other breed kills humans.

[Gormy Cuss]

61. Assuming that you didn't pull those numbers out of a hat, here are two problems with them.

First, I've never seen a calibration of "pitbulls and mixed pits." It's generally a category called "pitbull types" because identification is based on how the dog looks, not its pedigree. There are just too many different breeds that are informally called "pit bulls" to have a reliable count on actual pitbulls.

Second, the raw number of fatalities by breed is as useful as a rate. If there are 100 DBRFs caused by breed X, and 10 by breed Y, it would appear to the casual observer that breed X is more dangerous. However, if there are 20 million dogs of breed X and only 100,000 dogs of breed Y, breed Y is far more likely to be involved in DBRFs.

The CDC twenty year retrospective study attempted to determine which breeds were more dangerous and cautioned about the above two limitations in available data. Of course, that didn't prevent people from using the charts alone and ignoring the text.

[hlthe2b]

40. thank you... I was going to take the time to write just that...

but decided it probably would make no difference whatsoever to those who are seemingly obsessed with pitbull paranoia. And yes, I acknowledge how easy that is for those with little experience around dogs, given all the media hype. I've never lived in a city yet, where the local media didn't drool over some tragic dog story. Despite pitbulls being America's dog dating back to Spanky and Our Gang in the Little Rascals comedies, they have now become our national model for Cujo.


What is so sad and actually ironic is that those who are so scared of dogs tend to pass it along to their kids--never giving them the opportunity to learn how to safely approach a strange dog, to read body language and to know how to act/react around dogs. This actually does put them at risk around those dogs that are not totally trained, as children flapping around, screaming in totally unprovoked hysterics can be viewed by a dog as aggressive behavior. I always spend time with parents that are trying to teach their young children these lessons and am effusive in praising them for doing so. My girlie dog is quite a good (and very very patient) teacher. :loveya:

[Honeycombe8]

33. The Barber Shop dog doesn't look like a pit bull to me. It looks to be a puppy...

maybe six months to eight months old? And some sort of terrier mix...note his long body and short legs, and pointed muzzle. A pit has a very boxy/square body...the length of the body is about equal to its height. And they have somewhat short muzzles, with very wide mouths.

That Barber Shop dog looks a bit like one of my dogs (who is NOT a pit pull..but SOME people mistake her for one...people who don't know what a pit bull looks like). My dog is a Jack Russell Terrier/water dog mix. But she's mainly white with big tan spots on her huge ears...it's the short white coat & her musculature in the chest area that makes people think she's a pit. But that's the Jack Russell in her. Her hair on her back is coarse and water resistant (pits have a smooth coat), her legs are short with paws that turn outward like a dachsund, her muzzle is very long like a JRT, her ears are huge like a rat terrier, and her tail is very long (pits have short skinny hairless-looking tails). Still, even though she has all these features that say what she is, some people think she's a pit because of her white color and muscular athletic chest (JRTs are very athletic and compete in agility tests quite well...they are very musculur for their size).

Anyway, that puppy looks like he went into the shop after one guy in particular...maybe someone who'd been taunting him? He didn't seriously try to bite anyone, that I saw. But I bet it was scary. I hate stray dogs to run up to me and my dogs on the street. I never know what they're going to do.

[XemaSab]

71. Pit bulls are in the terrier group

http://www.akc.org/breeds/terrier_group.cfm

[Honeycombe8]

105. Yes, I know. They are a mix of terrier and something else, way back when.

But a "pit bull" now thought of...is a pure breed. As I said, that dog/puppy looked to me to be a terrier mix along the lines of a Jack Russell Terrier and not a "pit bull" in the true sense of the word.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. My simple solution: If your pet commits a crime, you are criminally responsible for that crime.

Your pet mauls someone, you should be charged with assault, battery, mayhem, whatever.

Your pet attacks a kid? You attacked a kid.

Your pet kills someone? You're a murderer.



This seems like a simple, fair solution that would in no way affect the vast majority of these 'dick substitute' dogs who are all friendly and totally, completely, utterly harmless.

[LeftyMom]

43. Google can't find where your delicious copypasta comes from. It's all the same writing style,

and no offense, but it looks suspiciously like your writing style.

[valerief]

47. You don't google well. nt

[LeftyMom]

50. Copy and pasting long direct quotes from your OP into google only finds this thread.

You don't cite sources well. Cough it up or you're full of it.

[valerief]

82. Please learn to google better before you carelessly insult people. nt

[LeftyMom]

104. You still haven't come up with a link.

:shrug: Guess you made it up.

[uppityperson]

122. No link. Your proof of "pitbulls are dangerous" is using non-pitbulls. You are something

[RebelOne]

48. I can't stand these pit bull bashing posts.

I have owned two pit bulls and 2 Rottweilers and they were the sweetest dogs ever. I don't care what any one says, but it is the owners and not the dogs at fault.

[Drahthaardogs]

51. As a whole, the breed is an absolute mess.

This coming from a person who strictly runs and trains FCI registered dogs who MUST pass ability tests, conformation tests, and temperament tests prior to being bred. We have breed wardens and immaculate records. Our incidence of hip dysplasia is low, less than 2%, debilitating cases less than 0.4%. In my registry, if the dog do not pass the tests, the dog is not allowed to breed in the registry. The pit suffers from back yard breeders who do not care and fighting people who breed dogs for serious battle. As a breed, they are a disaster. Sure, there are individual dogs that are stable, but far too many are not. AKC (and to a lesser degree UKC) breedings that only require a dog to be registered and have no mandatory quality control. Owners cite "free American" nonsense.

I have nothing against the breed in principle, but in its current condition, I would never ever own one, especially when there are similar breeds out there that still have tight breeding requirements.

[Doremus]

55. I once knew a pit bull that saved the life of its owner.

It attacked a bear elephant great white shark that was charging his owner.

I swear. I read it on another board.

[Starry Messenger]

73. The only dog that has ever bitten me was an offleash Yellow Lab. Unrec.

Get help, seriously.

[KurtNYC]

93. Your personal data pool is too small

The insurance industry rolls up all the claims and guess which breeds they won't insure any more?

[Starry Messenger]

117. My personal data pool is backed up with the same authority as the OP.

Which is nothing, which is all this OP deserves.

[KurtNYC]

119. well here is the list

http://www.insurelane.com/homeowner/aggressive-dogs.html

Akita
Alaskan Malamute
Chow Chow
Doberman Pinscher
German Shepherd
Pit Bull
Presa Canario
Rottweiler
Siberian Husky
Staffordshire Bull Terrier

The average dog bite/attack claim is $24,000+ The insurance industry pools data and set rates accordingly. They are very thorough and methodical. This isn't hysteria; it is pure mathematics. That list is the breeds who do the most physical damage year in and year out.

[Starry Messenger]

123. That's an ad for homeowners insurance.

I don't see a data pool, I see a pitch to sell insurance. Maybe you meant to post a different link? :shrug:

[Whats_Happening]

74. Ban the breed!

Just ban it. A few points --

1) Someone above said, for every pitbull who killed a baby, there are a "dozen" who haven't. Doesn't sound like good odds to me. :shrug:

2) There's a class issue here too -- the middle to upper-middle class here don't understand what it's like to live on the wrong side of the tracks in today's America, where you end up taking your life into your hands just by walking down the street in our poorer neighborhoods, with all the gangbangers and pseudo-gangbangers and their pitbulls. If the latte liberals had to live like the rest of us, they would understand what neighborhood menaces these breeds are.

3) The gun analogy -- "guns don't kill people, people kill people" which translates to "it's not the breed, it's the owners." Both statements contain a certain amount of truth. Irresponsible gun owners might leave their guns loaded, and unlocked, and so occasional tragedies happen when some kid gets a hold of their parents' gun -- but pitbulls are so much worse -- no gun, no matter how bad an owner it has, no gun will ever rise up on its own and shoot someone on its own. Guns can't come to life on their own. But pitbulls can, and do.

4) Small dogs bite too? Sure they do. But they won't kill you.

5) So perhaps one of these stories refers to a "Presa Canario"? (Another powerful, vicious dog.) Let me just say this about that; I'm all in favor of banning "Presa Canarios" as well as pitbulls.

6) Some people just hate people. Some people are dyed-in-the-wool misanthropes. The sort of people who tell us that a human being getting killed means nothing to them, but God forbid an animal is abused. I'm sorry these mental fuck-ups ended up so bitter and angry, everyone has a history, but we should not make laws (or decline to make laws) on the basis of their misanthropy. I'd rather see a whole breed banned than see one more human being killed by that breed. I am a humanist. If the misanthropes weren't so fucked up (usually by their parents, or ex-spouses) they would feel the same way too.

[DirkGently]

115. How do you test a dog for being a "pit bull?"

Unless you're willing to ban dogs altogether, the whole argument is fallacy.

"Pit bull" has just become a meaningless street term for a scary dog with a big head. It's not like the idiots letting killer dogs roam around are insisting on purebreds.

You can't test for "pit bull" and you can't ban every conceivable big, powerful dog that could be a menace. Mastiffs are taller and heavier than true pit bulls, and just as capable of violence. Rottweilers bite harder, and have a similar scary rep.

As for misanthropes, I think people's attitudes toward dogs speaks volumes. I don't trust dog haters any further than I could throw a St. Bernard.

[FloridaJudy]

75. I was bitten viciously twice as a child

Once by a neighbor's cocker spaniel, and once by my uncle's border collie. Both of these dogs were male, un-neutered and had a history of aggressive behavior (yeah, my uncle's a asshole). Neither should have been allowed near any human being without strict supervision, let alone left alone with a child.

As an adult, I was once attacked by two dogs that actually made me fear for my life. I dropped my groceries and ran inside, but I have no doubt these dogs would have seriously hurt me had I not done so. They were dalmatians.

I now live in an apartment complex with several dozen pits. Not one of them has shown any aggression toward any human, ever. That's because we have strict rules about neutering and leashing. Seriously - the management comes around periodically to ask us if any dogs have been misbehaving. The dogs are registered at the office, and any that aren't perfect canine citizens are out. I would much rather live next door to a pit bull that is neutered and properly trained than an un-neutered dog of any other breed. In fact, I do. It's the bloody chihuahua that is the nuisance.

For another thing, the dog in that video is pretty obviously not a pit. PB's are compact, blocky dogs. That dog's body and head are way too narrow. Ask the woman who lives next door to one.

[DirkGently]

116. Childhood friend was mauled by a yellow Lab. Anecdotes don't prove much, do they?

[Aerows]

81. That dog tore up the barber shop

I don't buy for one second that the owners didn't know the dog was vicious. It was literally going after that guy even as he was getting pulled away from him, then you see him grab the other guy by the leg. Then we read that he bit 3 children.

I realize other dog breeds can go nuts - all dogs can. The problem is when it's one particular breed over and over again. A vicious Chihuahua or Dachshund isn't a problem. The problem is the owners that are not capable or inclined to train their pit bulls. There really should be some regulation of them. It's undeniable that there is a problem. The debate is how to best solve it. Personally, I think ALL fighting dogs should be regulated - if you are going to own something like a pit bull, you should be required to take it through obedience school to help socialize the dog and prove you are a responsible owner.

[Liberal_in_LA]

94. it kinda looked like the dog was trying to play....

[jberryhill]

126. It does

[rms013]

83. There is no such thing as bad dogs just bad owners.

[DirkGently]

85. Anecdote #2 in the OP seems to be a well-known story about a pair of Presa Canarios, not pitbulls.

Two attorneys, breeding "dogs of war" with their friends in prison. Unfriendly to a woman in the building, perhaps because she was a lesbian. Dogs killed her in the hall. The couple were truly bizarre people and didn't even seem sorry about it. The man went to prison. Became a national news story.

The dogs were Presa Canarios, a type of bullmastiff. Specifically trained in this case to be vicious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Whipple

This kind of random, carelessly false anecdote in support of an irrational, fear-based group hatred sounds a lot like the kind of thing racial or religious bigots offer to support their insanity.

There is no supportable, all-encompassing statement of ANY kind that can be made about the pit bull terrier, period. Some are large, powerful dogs, and some of those are encouraged or allowed to be vicious, and in recent years, people inclined to keep vicious dogs have preferred pit bulls. They could do the same with any Mastiff, Rottweiler, Husky, Akita, or any of a dozen other breeds large and strong enough to hurt someone. Likewise, many breeds were "bred for aggression" in one way or another. Guard dogs. Sheep dogs. Cattle dogs.

Breeding and keeping vicious dogs is a social issue. Discussing breeds should be "permitted" is nonsensical.

To purport that's there's some universally evil tendency in a general type of dog is no more logically supportable than claiming Californians are all geniuses or all blonde people steal. There's not even enough genetic consistency among the dogs people commonly call "pit bulls" or "pit bull mixes" to claim every animal so called is reliably the same in some way.

To call for banning or "making extinct" all pit bulls is ludicrous and bizarre, and speaks of a near pathological fear and hatred that ought perhaps to be addressed professionally.

[ljm2002]

88. Regarding one of the stories that you cite...

...namely: "Down the block from me, this couple owned a pair of pitbulls. The couple were antgonistic to a woman in the building and one day the pitbulls mauled her to death. One owner was a lawyer and he went to jail. It became at least a national news story."

I'm pretty sure this refers to the mauling that happened in San Francisco in 2001 that killed Diane Whipple. If so, the breed was not pit bull, it was Presa Canario. Both defendants were lawyers and both went to jail, and rightly so. The dogs had been involved in other incidents and the owners made little effort to control them properly, even before this horrific event occurred.

This story had nothing to do with pit bulls.

[ceile]

98. You again.

Pure flame bait.

[alfredo]

99. Cocker Spaniels are fuckin nuts. I had to hit one over the

head with a tricycle to stop his attack. I wasn't in his yard. I was in a yard across the street and down two houses. It was too cold for the dog spray, so I had to improvise. (I was a mail man.) I did have to shove my fist (inside my mail satchel) down the throat of a pit bull. My aggressive act may have confused the dog enough that she broke off her attack. It could also be she was just trying to warn me to stay away.

On the same street was another pit bull that could not be more friendly. It was so sweet. It would try to sit in my lap when I got into my jeep. He would not let any other dog come between him and me. The pit bull that came at me was the mother of the friendly one. There was also a Rott on the block. The three dogs would accompany me on that section of the route. The aggressive pit bull would not act aggressive if the other dogs were with me.

Pit Pulls have very expressive faces, and that might be part of the appeal.

If one approaches you, watch its body movements. If there is any sideway movement (head and tail), you should be OK. If it comes straight on, no hint of sideway movement, be ready to defend yourself. Ears back is a good sign of ill intent.

[Honeycombe8]

109. I've had two cocker spaniels. They were not nuts. Spaniels are not normally

aggressive, although a male CAN be territorial in his house/yard. But let's face it, a spaniel isn't that much of a threat, really, to a grown man. They have a weak jaw grip, and have soft mouths since they were bred to hold birds softly in their mouths w/o damage.

Of course you can make any dog aggressive, if you try hard enough to be abusive to it.

[alfredo]

118. This one was aggressive, and would go nuts when I delivered

mail to his house.

[Honeycombe8]

130. He was loose outside, just running around? There aren't leash laws there?

A male cocker I had once was house/yard territorial. He'd carry on like crazy...bark bark bark...until the stranger left. But he was inside, and the mailman was outside, so no problem.

Once, he really didn't like a neighbor lady, and grabbed at her foot/ankle. It shocked me. He'd never done anything like that before. I later realized it was because she was the owner of the Rottweiler I had found and put in my backyard, and she was there to pick up her dog. My cocker was very upset that another dog was in HIS yard, and he no doubt smelled the Rottie on the lady. But he didn't do any damage. They really don't have the kind of jaw/mouth for that, I think. They were, really, bred to have what's called a "soft mouth." They were bred to flush woodcock birds out of brush, and carry them back sometimes. Like a retriever.

But I believe you. If I were a mailman, I'd be scared mostly of dogs, more than people.

[alfredo]

131. There are leash laws, but they only had one part time

animal control worker. I had a way of making people control their dog. If I got attacked, I'd cut off delivery until something is done with the dog. When people call in about their mail, we'd tell them exactly why, and whose dog is the problem. It is called peer pressure.

I cut off a whole section of town when someone took a pot shot at my relief carrier. He was a racist Republican goldbrick, but he didn't deserve to be shot at. Within two day I had the name of the perp and he went to jail.

[WilliamPitt]

100. Some of the axes that are ground around here just crack me up.

[msanthrope]

101. Indeed. Breastfeeding while at the Olive Garden, anyone???? nt

[WilliamPitt]

108. Nader smoking meat at the Olive Garden while breeding pit bulls.

That's an OP likely to start a riot around here.

:rofl:

[smokey nj]

111. Only if the pit bulls are circumcised.

[NeedleCast]

114. I'm Far More Dangerous Than My Pitbull

especially when it comes to jackwagon breed banners.

[tblue37]

128. The dog in the case the second post mentions was a Presa Canario, not a pit bull! nt

Image of the breed:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS61-UoM5m0k8mQTCnryJ919K0JmRrr5o9aLTJGFv1tPhWRO7z41A

[tblue37]

129. Here's the thing: I adore animals. I have 3 cats, and if my life were set

up for it, I would probably have a couple of dogs, too. I love, love, love dogs.

But even a medium sized dog could kill you if something went wacka-wacka in his brain. A dog is serious power per pound!

Therefore, although I love dogs and hang out with them as much as I can, whenever I can, I am always aware of how powerful they are and therefore always alert while playing with them and cuddling them.

I used to have an adorable Afghan Hound. They are good sized dogs. Jason was a sweetie, and he never did anything even slightly "iffy." But while playing with him and petting him, I was always alert in some sense, the same way I am always alert when handling machinery (a car, a blender, a mixer, a stove) to the fact that there was sufficient power there to harm me if something went wrong.

Nowadays purebreds are so overbred that you can't be sure some little glitch has not been introduced into their bloodline. I remember reading an article once about a man whose 2-year-old St. Bernard, which he had raised from puppyhood, went nuts. One day they were just chillin'. The man gazed lovingly into his dog's eyes. The dog gazed back--and then suddenly chomped the man's face!

My neighbor had a darling, playful English bulldog who developed a brain infection that caused her (the dog) to go strange. One day the dog went for my neighbor's face. The poor precious beastie had to be put down the week before her 4th birthday. We still grieve over that sweet dog.

Any living being can have something go wrong in their "circuitry." And if that living being has the power to seriously injure or even kill you, then you should have at least some level of alertness at all times. I don't sit around fretting over such things while playing with dogs, but I am aware that they have strong jaws.

I think of my friend who used to have horses. Those, too, are powerful creatures, and if they want to they can do serious or even fatal harm to a mere human. My friend was always aware that the horses were powerful and if they had any reason--or any unexpected glitch-that made them want to do him harm, they could do him harm. He was always respectful of their size and power, but that didn't prevent him from loving his horses and delighting in them.

I feel the same way about dogs. I would never leave a dog alone with a child. Children are themselves pretty erratic sometimes, and they can be unpredictable. They could easily do something to trigger a defensive or a predatory response in a dog.

Even if I am in the same room, I won't allow a small child anywhere near a dog unless I am within what I call "yank-back" reach.

Oh, and BTW cats have sharp edges. I am respectful of their teeth and claws, too, just as I am respectful of a dog's jaws. My cats are sweeties, but if one is on my lap and something startles her, I could easily get scratched as she scrambles and leaps off my lap.

[flvegan]

137. (facepalm)

I'm not even going to bother. You've already been told in this thread a couple times.

:rofl: