NATO and Libyan troops seem to be indiscrimately bombing and shelling Sirte.

[Prometheus Bound]

Sirte civilians accuse NATO of genocide
The Times
September 27, 2011 1:27PM

CIVILIANS pouring out of the besieged city of Sirte accused NATO of committing genocide yesterday as revolutionary forces reinforced their numbers and prepared for a new attack on Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's home town.

.....Civilians, many looking scared or sullen, said that conditions inside Sirte were "disastrous". They made claims which, if verified, offer a conundrum for Nato, which operates with a UN mandate on the need to protect civilian life.

"It has been worse than awful," said Riab Safran, 28, as his car was searched by revolutionary fighters. His family had been sleeping on the beach, he said.

"They have hit all kinds of buildings: schools, hospitals," he said, referring to NATO airstrikes.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sirte-civilians-accuse-nato-of-genocide/story-e6frg6so-1226147923376

Sirte Remains Unbeatable, Frustration Grows Among Rebels
Prensa Latina
Monday, Sep 26, 2011

.....Military forces of the National Transitional Council (NTC) returned to the attack backed by NATO air force, which bombed Sirte´s downtown areas despite many civilians remained there.

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_63799.shtml

Civilians flee Muammar Gaddafi's home town Sirte
AP - Sept 26, 2011
.....Eman Mohammed, a 30-year-old doctor at the city's central Ibn Sina Hospital, said the facility was short on most medicines and had no oxygen in the operating rooms. She said most days, patients who reach the hospital find no one to treat them because fuel shortages and fear keep staff from coming to work.

She said many recent injuries appear to be caused by revolutionary forces. “Most of the people killed or injured recently are from the shelling,” she said.

Forces on the city's outskirts fire tank shells, Grad rockets and mortar rounds toward the city daily with little more than a general idea of what they are targeting. NATO, meanwhile, is operating in Libya under a mandate to protect civilians.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/civilians-flee-gadhafi-stronghold-amid-food-medicine-shortages/article2180512/

Video showing the new government troops seemingly firing at random into the city.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/gaddafi-a-growing-terrorist-threat-20110927-1ku2w.html

[xchrom]

1. Recommend

[mazzarro]

2. Well Ghadaffi's supporters, relatives, and towns-people do not count

Civilians - by NATO and UN definitions have to be people non related to Ghadaffi in any way at all. So Ghadaffi's hometown qualifies for obliteration along with all the people therein -- :sarcasm:

[tabatha]

3. NATO does not bomb civilians. Period.

They take enormous precautions not to do so and that is why in six months there has been minimal collateral damage. The number of civilians killed by deliberate targeting by Gaddafi is in the tens of thousands. NATO has probably killed less than 30.

Gaddafi forces in Sirte

--- have been preventing citizens from leaving
--- have been taking food for themselves
--- have been making false claims on TV
--- have assassinated people they suspect of being TNC supporters
--- there are apparently large numbers of refrigerated containers on the docks at Sirte containing bodies of people detained by Gaddafi from all over Libya in the last six months
--- the TNC fighters are shelling known Gaddafi positions. They are not shelling civilians.
--- Gaddafi forces have bombed civilian areas in Sirte.

The TNC fighters have tried again and again to negotiate because they do NOT want to kill civilians. 80% of the civilains in Sirte are from Misrata, because they fled the constant bombardment by Gaddafi for months and months and months --- with grad missiles and cluster bombs.

NATO is not committing genocide. Period. They have been preventing genocide. Period.

BTW, all operations are recorded on tape and provided to ICC. Thus there can be no false claims by anyone.

[DrunkenBoat]

4. yes, they do bomb civilians, and they kill them too. what are you smoking?

[tabatha]

6. Not in Libya. No way, no how.

Please google Charles Bouchard and educate yourself.

I don't smoke and I don't drink and I don't insult.

[DrunkenBoat]

8. "not in libya" -- that's rich. no, you don't insult, you just tell people to "educate yourself".

i've been here long enough to notice the regular propaganda feed.

[tabatha]

10. Propaganda?

I supported the South African revolution. I support the Libyan revolution.
I read multiple articles on the latter every day.

It amazes me that you do not seem to have understood the points I was making, but just respond with the blind "NATO BAD" "NATO BAD".

When Libya is free, possibly you should visit the country and speak to as many people as possible and ask them what they think of NATO. Then, if they catch Gaddafi, I hope you enjoy the ICC trial. And if anyone tries to sue NATO, I hope you enjoy those trials, too.

If there are mistakes being made in Sirte it would not be NATO. It would more likely be the TNC, but they have been far more careful about civilians, than the Gaddafi forces in Sirte, who have

--- shot at fleeing civilians
--- assassinated TNC civilian supporters
--- lobbed grads deliberately at civilian areas

The TNC have not. Sorry.

[Distant Observer]

45. You keep repeating propaganda points that have proven false. Psyops forces

and the army of PR folks hired to support the "rebels" must just be sitting on their hands, you seem to believe.

This has been an internal power struggle and then a Western instigated bloody civil war. There is inevitably propaganda on both sides, but you seem to believe that only supporters of "crazy Gaddafi" know how to use propaganda.

[Distant Observer]

32. The Blood of many are on the hands of the "humaitarians," but they will feign innocence to the end

[DrunkenBoat]

50. Sunday: "killed nine civilians, including two children. Hours later, NATO confirmed "

TRIPOLI, Libya — Libya's government said NATO warplanes struck a residential neighborhood in the capital Sunday and killed nine civilians, including two children. Hours later, NATO confirmed one of its airstrikes went astray...

In a statement issued late Sunday at Brussels headquarters, the trans-Atlantic alliance said airstrikes were launched against a military missile site in Tripoli, but "it appears that one weapon did not strike the intended target and that there may have been a weapons system failure which may have caused a number of civilian casualties."

"NATO regrets the loss of innocent civilian lives and takes great care in conducting strikes against a regime determined to use violence against its own citizens," said Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard, commander of the anti-Libya operation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/19/libya-nato-bombing-civilian-casualties_n_879903.html

[PurityOfEssence]

52. You may not smoke or drink, but you insult constantly

The very thrust of your posts is that those who disagree with you are somehow defective.

On and on, you deeply insult, and use hysterical language to try to marginalize those who disagree with you.

[court jester]

12. you are absolutely correct and here is evidence from the past

and to suggest that all of a sudden a carbon copy of that "intervention" is not at all like this "intervention" might be a bit naive

"...The Cluster bombing of Nis was an event that occurred on May 7, 1999 during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. It was the most serious incident involving civilian deaths and the use of cluster bombs.<1> The cluster bombs had been dropped by Dutch F-16s.<2> After the incident the Dutch stopped using cluster bombs in the campaign, whereas the other NATO members kept using them.<3>..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bombing_of_Nis

Here's a victim, just trying to go home with a bag of carrots



Then there was the bombing of a train:



"The Grdelica train bombing occurred on 12 April 1999 (it was the second day of Serbian Orthodox Easter holidays that year), when two missiles fired by NATO aircraft hit a passenger train while it was passing across a railway bridge over the Južna Morava river at Grdelica gorge, some 300 kilometres (180 miles) south of Belgrade in Serbia. As a result, 14 civilians including children and a pregnant woman were killed and another 16 passengers wounded.

The bombing occurred during Operation Allied Force, a NATO operation against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) aimed at forcing the FRY government to remove its security forces from the disputed Serbian province of Kosovo. The campaign had begun by attacking mainly military targets, but by mid-April the emphasis had changed to strategic and economic targets such as transport links, particularly major bridges. Yet many civilian casualties were reported in the solely residential areas far beyond such targets, as well as in destroyed media homes, public transportation vehicles, hotels and clerical offices...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing


Of course, many Americans ARE naive. Many of those cheering this assault never even heard of these atrocities. But that doesn't make them immune to criticism.

Too bad there is not a modern day Paul Watson, who remained behind the "enemy" lines in Pristina and managed to file a report every 2 or 3 days about the "conflict" which was ignored by every single mass media outlet in the country, except for the LA Times, which published his reports.

There is this, however, preserved for posterity, proving without a shadow of a doubt that NATO not only targets civilians, but doesn't count them, because to do so would humanize the enemy:

"...Civilian casualties as a result of Operation Allied Force were significant. Many of the people killed in the NATO airstrikes were widely reported to be civilians, both Serbs and Albanians. Human Rights Watch confirmed ninety incidents in which civilians died as a result of NATO bombing. It reported that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the ninety separate incidents in Operation Allied Force.<1> According to Yugoslav Committee for Cooperation with UNICEF, the Yugoslav civilian victims are more than 1,200.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force#April_12.2C_1999:_Grdelica_train_bombing

"NATO doesn't target civilians" is a proven lie. Repeated endlessly by anonymous tweets!

"Human Rights Watch documented and evaluated the impact and effects of the NATO military operation. Human Rights Watch confirmed ninety incidents in which civilians died as a result of NATO bombing. These included attacks where cluster bombs were dropped.<11>"

[CJvR]

28. You shouldn't...

...go boating when you have been drinking, and judging from your post you obviously have.

[Romulox]

29. It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, gone explosive! If NATO bombs them, they must not be civilians

QED!

:rofl:

[CJvR]

36. Collateral damage.

Actually the distinction between Civilian and Military is a bit blurred when one side, Mad Dog & co, so obviously uses the conventions to whipe their arses with. Bottom line though is that if you park a tank next to a civilian house, and the tank gets bombed - then the responsibility for the collateral damage rests primarily on the one who placed a military target so close to a civilian structure. Any use of protected buildings or people for military purposes effectively voids that protection. You are even allowed to fire at hospitals, legaly, under some conditions!

[Distant Observer]

48. Got it!

[Puregonzo1188]

55. Ever? Not in Afghanistan? Not in the Balkans?

That's some pretty strong historical revisionism.

[tabatha]

5. Libya conflict: Smoke and explosions mark Sirte battle

Their faces told a story of fear - they had been short of food, water and electricity they told us - scared of what might happen if they stayed, or if they left.

Many residents of Sirte have been fleeing as the fighting moves into the city.

A woman looked out at the soldiers from the back seat of a saloon car, clearly terrified.

They said they were told the rebels would kill them, slit their throats; but instead they were welcomed with water and fuel for their cars.

Hundreds have made it out over the past few days as the NTC troops advanced.

One had a lucky escape - his car had a twisted metal scar after being hit by a bullet.

"People in Sirte are waiting for you, they have been waiting since February 17th," he said.

"Sirte will welcome you. It's open, take it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15069662

[DrunkenBoat]

13. gosh, why are they leaving, since nato & the noble rebels don't bomb civilians?

why don't they just stay & wait for the magic bombs to kill all the bad people?

However, some Sirte residents fleeing the town Monday told a reporter for British daily The Times that NATO's bombing of the besieged city amounted to a genocide of those within its boundaries.

"Nato bombing is killing civilians," a man who identified himself as Mohammed Ali Alum Sekily told The Times. "Where is the United Nations? Where is the Muslim world to stop this genocide of the people of Sirte?"

Eman Mohammed, a 30-year-old doctor at the city's central Ibn Sina Hospital, said the facility was short on most medicines and had no oxygen in the operating rooms. She said most days, patients who reach the hospital find no one to treat them because fuel shortages and fear keep staff from coming to work.

She said many recent injuries appear to be caused by revolutionary forces. "Most of the people killed or injured recently are from the shelling," she said.

"We got scared for our children," said Amir Ali, 40, who ran a metal workshop in the city for years. He fled with his five children when the explosions got too close to their home.

"It comes from both sides," he said. "I have no idea what kind of weapons they are, but it's all heavy stuff."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/27/501364/main20112001.shtml


Sirte civilians accuse NATO of genocide

CIVILIANS pouring out of the besieged city of Sirte accused NATO of committing genocide yesterday as revolutionary forces reinforced their numbers and prepared for a new attack on Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's home town.

Long lines of civilian vehicles were seen leaving after a night punctuated by NATO air attacks. Forces fighting for the National Transitional Council (NTC) added their own artillery and mortar rounds at regular intervals.

Civilians, many looking scared or sullen, said that conditions inside Sirte were "disastrous". They made claims which, if verified, offer a conundrum for Nato, which operates with a UN mandate on the need to protect civilian life.

"It has been worse than awful," said Riab Safran, 28, as his car was searched by revolutionary fighters. His family had been sleeping on the beach, he said.

"They have hit all kinds of buildings: schools, hospitals," he said, referring to NATO airstrikes.

He said he could not distinguish between NATO and NTC attacks but believed it was a NATO bomb that destroyed part of his home on Saturday. NATO said it hit a number of military targets including a rocket launcher, artillery, and three ammunition stores.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sirte-civilians-accuse-nato-of-genocide/story-e6frg6so-1226147923376

[CJvR]

16. Dumb question.

You think it is pleasant to live on a battlefield? Where one side might accidentaly kill you and the other deliberatly kill you, slowly, for not supporting Mad Dog enthusiasticly enough...

[Distant Observer]

43. I thought Nato was just protecting the peacefull protestors -- who are now the ones running things

[CJvR]

47. Then...

...you must have switched off your TV and not visited any news sites since March.

[tabatha]

7. We are the rats

sharon lynch

With the help of FF from Misrata, an old lady in Sirte was let out of the house where she and other civilians were held. Not knowing anything about what has been happening, she looked at them and said " God help you win against those rats." One of the ff looked at her smiled and said "we are the rats." From @4evrLonghorn 's nephew's FB page.

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/sharon_lynch/~8P8M7

[CJvR]

20. LOL!

Good one.

[Distant Observer]

35. If you followed both sides of the issue -- in rebel rhetoric Gaddafi supporters are rats, and ...

visa-versa.

This was an internal power struggle that the West turned into a bloody civil war to serve its ends.

[tabatha]

9. Sirte tweets

ZeinakhodrAljaz Zeina Khodr
#libya Hundreds of cars streaming out of west #Sirte, families fleeing ... Many say they drove through farmlands to avoid gaddafi's forces

RaynerSkyNews Tom Rayner
NATO on worsening conditions in Sirte caused by Gaddafi forces: "the brutal nature of their acts signify a defunct regime in its final days"

avierespinosa2 JAVIER ESPINOSA
photographer coming back from #Sirte Gaddafi troops fire against convoy of civilians trying to scape from the city hundreds leaving #Libya

Incredible number of new members from ppl who fled #Sirte are now joining us on FB with news and pics. It's like they've been buried alive!

Eye witness who left #Sirte said NATO dropped fliers over Wagadugo Hall in Sirte warning G forces they'll be bombing the area. #SirteCrisis

[Distant Observer]

37. Someone still believes the Twitter campaign -- despite all the lies and missinformation proven

[Prometheus Bound]

11. Fleeing Sirte residents speak of mass killings from NATO bombings; others say Libyan forces.

Civilians flee besieged Qaddafi loyalist town
September 27, 2011 3:13 AM

....However, some Sirte residents fleeing the town Monday told a reporter for British daily The Times that NATO's bombing of the besieged city amounted to a genocide of those within its boundaries.

"Nato bombing is killing civilians," a man who identified himself as Mohammed Ali Alum Sekily told The Times. "Where is the United Nations? Where is the Muslim world to stop this genocide of the people of Sirte?"

Sekily said six members of his family had been killed, but he declined to give details on their deaths.

Others fleeing Sirte painted a more confused picture of who was behind the worst of the destruction, saying it was difficult to tell whether an explosion was the result of shelling from Libyan forces encircling the city, or NATO jets overhead.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/27/501364/main20112001.shtml

[CJvR]

15. Yeah.

Suddenly after all this time NATO have run out of competence and guided munition. Very belivable.

[polly7]

21. Just a quick google search disproves your 'not even accidentally' claim.

http://www.france24.com/en/20110619-nato-acknowledges-killing-civilians-air-strike-arada-tripoli

[CJvR]

24. I was hoping...

...you would find that one. It really is all you got.

One bomb out of all the thousands that have been dropped so far, and still you are so eager to ride to the defence of the moronic claims in this thread.

[polly7]

27. You claimed:

"Despite a 6 month bombing campaign the Gaddafi propaganda machine have failed to present even one credible instance of civilians getting hit even by accident."

But now you say you knew of it. I SEE where the propaganda's coming from.

[CJvR]

30. Naturally...

...I knew of it, it was accompanied by loud howls of fake outrage when it happened. (IIRC there was one or two other questionable incidents you could have picked.) Good bait to draw an outraged response though - "see here is the evidence of NATO's evil". Ultimately though that is basicly it, the entire list of proven NATO atrocities in Libya - one stray bomb.

WOW! That must be the least effective genocide in human history! Yet despite half a year of being proven wrong on every claim ever made you are still eager to belive in Mad Dog's infantile propaganda.

[polly7]

33. You know what ........ you lied, about innocent people dying. You admitted it. Nothing you say

means a thing from now on. That's just how it goes.

[CJvR]

38. Nothing you have said...

...have ever mattered, any more than the crap Gaddafi's parrot (Moussa Ibrahim) like to spread around. Despite half a year of consistent failiure to back up the regime's claims you still belive in him, remarkable.

Have a cracker polly, share it with Gaddafi's parrot if you want to.

[DrunkenBoat]

51. Sunday: "Killed 9 civilians including children Nato confirmed"

In a statement issued late Sunday at Brussels headquarters, the trans-Atlantic alliance said airstrikes were launched against a military missile site in Tripoli, but "it appears that one weapon did not strike the intended target and that there may have been a weapons system failure which may have caused a number of civilian casualties."

"NATO regrets the loss of innocent civilian lives and takes great care in conducting strikes against a regime determined to use violence against its own citizens," said Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard, commander of the anti-Libya operation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/19/libya-nato-bombing-civilian-casualties_n_879903.html

[CJvR]

14. Groan!

Not this sad pathetic crap again.

If NATO was serious about genociding Sirte there would be nothing left by now but a burnt out craterfield. Yeah Sirte is hardly the most pleasant of places right now - because Gaddafi & co have elected to make their last effort to dodge justice in that city. Despite a 6 month bombing campaign the Gaddafi propaganda machine have failed to present even one credible instance of civilians getting hit even by accident.

Is it to much to ask that posters are at least a little bit critical before vomiting out Mad Dog's propaganda all over the web?

[polly7]

17. FAIL.

Citizens are saying they are being killed by NATO shelling. Unless those shells are made of foam-rubber, I think we can safely assume any place Nato is bombing that has civilians anywhere near, is getting casualties.

[CJvR]

19. Epic Fail!

NATO are not shelling Sirte, they don't have any artillery or any heavy ground presence in Libya.

It has been Mad Dog's tactic to park heavy weapons as close to civilians as he can since the air campaign started and NATO have still avoided causing collateral damage so why should they have forgotten that skill now?

[polly7]

23. Collateral damage. God I hate that term. nt.

[CJvR]

25. You could try...

...inventing something better.

[polly7]

44. I already did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1962590&mesg_id=1963934

[CJvR]

46. "humaniterrorism"?

An odd term, and hardly very useful since it doesn't describe the situation very well. If the point isn't to terrorise you cant really label it terrorism.

[Harmony Blue]

34. The civilians are probably confused but that doesn't dismiss their account of the events

Hard to tell if a projectile has a lengthened parabolic path or nor originating from land or from the air. That is the last thing that would be on my mind as I would try to seek cover A.S.A.P.

[blindpig]

26. They are not attempting 'genocide'

They are practicing terrorism.

[CJvR]

31. Oh...

...NATO could terrorise a whole lot better than this if that was what they tried. They could terrorize Sirte until there wasn't stone left on stone. As a terror campaign it is a pathetic failiure.

[Distant Observer]

49. What wonderfully bloody sentiment

[CJvR]

53. True though.

If NATO was serious in pursuing the "terror" tactic many scream about, but provide little evidence for, then NATO could have done a much, much better job than it has done so far.

[Prometheus Bound]

54. What a bizarre post.

Every sentence a jaw-dropper.

[blindpig]

18. State terrorism.....

it must be ok....

k&r

[Harmony Blue]

22. This is disgusting

But not surprising.:-(

[Distant Observer]

39. Beautiful: the SPLEDID BLOND BEAST of Euro Dominance on display

In the 19th Century the pattern of Euro domination - in which murder and pillage was fine when it was committed or ordered by European elites - resulted in the designation "Splendid Blond Beast."

Not much has changed.

[CJvR]

40. Huh?

To be replaced by the "Splendid darkish beast" where murder and pillage is fine as long as the perp isn't blond.
EDIT: Or Jewish - very important exception.

[Distant Observer]

41. This was a European observation of European elite

[Distant Observer]

42. The lies of NTC that civilians were being used has been completed exposed for vile propagada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/09/26/libya-sirte-nato-gadhafi.html

There is a bloody aspect to it," she said, standing at a rebel checkpoint outside the city. "Many people died in the battlefield as martyrs, so their relatives are angry. It doesn't have to do with Gadhafi anymore. It's more about revenge than about anything else."

She said she didn't expect the fighters to surrender easily.

'There are many people inside who don't have cars to leave or can't get gas.'—Amir Ali, resident of Sirte

"It is just simple resistance, just those who lost relatives or who are defending their homes," she said. Others said they also felt endangered by the fighting.

[Prometheus Bound]

56. "They are bombing us and women and children are dying," said an elderly woman

Libya: exodus from Sirte as thousands flee rebel offensive
By Ruth Sherlock in Sirte

5:45PM BST 28 Sep 2011

Plumes of smoke rose over the city from the barrages of heavy Grad rocket fire. As the tanks rolled forward, civilian cars streamed in the opposite direction.

"They are bombing us and women and children are dying," said an elderly woman, wrapping her shroud to hide her face.

Over three thousand men, women and children have fled the besieged city in the last three days. Risking their lives to cross the front lines in search of refuge, they described grim and bloody conditions inside the town.

"There is no medicine, no food, no electricity. It is a disaster," said Mohammed Omar Farjan, 37, his two young boys sitting wide-eyed on the laps of their mother and aunts crammed in the back of the car.

....Rebel fighters manning rows of rocket launchers said they knew they were fighting civilians, but that Sirte's residents had "chosen to die".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8794617/Libya-exodus-from-Sirte-as-thousands-flee-rebel-offensive.html

[Prometheus Bound]

57. NATO and Libyan forces causing a humanitarian catastrophe in Sirte

Libyans flee dire conditions in Sirte-agencies
By Stephanie Nebehay

GENEVA | Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:29pm IST

(Reuters) - Thousands of civilians are streaming out of Muammar Gaddafi's besieged home town of Sirte, where a humanitarian disaster looms amid rising casualties and shrinking supplies of water, electricity and food, major aid agencies said on Wednesday.

....Doctors in the encircled city, one of the last two bastions of support for the deposed leader, report many war-wounded have been brought for treatment, but the hospital lacks anesthetics and basic medicines, Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) said.

"If the situation continues for a few more days or weeks, it will be catastrophic. Already the doctors in the hospital can't do their work properly, and if it persists, the situation will become dramatic," Dr. Mego Terzian, head of emergency programmes for MSF-France, told Reuters.

...."They told us of huge difficulties, a lack of electricity, water and basic medicines to run the emergency room, including anesthetics, antibiotics, analgesics, and blood bags," he said.

The water and electricity shortages were also affecting the general population, he added.

Forces of the interim National Transitional Council (NTC) had "discouraged, even forbidden" MSF from sending its aid workers into Sirte citing insecurity, according to Terzian.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/09/28/idINIndia-59599320110928