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On greed: "The outlook of people can be changed by changing their material conditions"

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 06:59 PM
Original message
On greed: "The outlook of people can be changed by changing their material conditions"
"Human beings have no fixed characteristics and outlook, eternally permanent...In capitalist society there is the most extreme disintegration of social responsibility: the system makes “every man for himself” the main principle of life. The outlook of people can be changed by changing their material conditions, the way in which they get their living." (Emile Burns, "Introduction to Marxism", 1957, International Publishers)

"The fact is that the individualistic every-man-for himself-and-the-devil-take-the-hindmost behavior of most human beings in capitalist countries is not part of our biological heritage. It is the result of our conditioning in a society dominated by the motive for private profit. Eliminate this driving motive, and a different kind of behavior develops, one that seeks the personal good in the common good." ( A.B. Magil's "Socialism: What's In It For You", 1946, New Century Publishers)


"Does it require deep intuition to comprehend that man’s ideas, views, and conception, in one word, man’s consciousness, changes with every change in the conditions of his material existence, in his social relations and in his social life?" (Marx & Engels, "Communist Manifesto")




Greed is not an inborn human trait, it is a learned reaction to the system of society that is imposed on us. Change the system, change the behavior. NOTE: no one is saying that this change would happen overnight, or even in one or two generations. But the reaction of humans to protect each other and their society under great duress shows that we are a communal species, our instinct is for cooperation and for sharing. Only one sector of society preys on our misery, profits from our misfortunes, makes a religion of profit and greed. They are called capitalists and there isn't any rule that we have to keep them.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Providing a service"="profiting from misfortune"...
Taking money, as a cab driver, from some poor fucker who just spent the night in jail and needs to get back to his car... is providing a service, and profiting off that poor fucker's misfortune.

I'd've liked to give the guy a break and a ride for free... but the company wasn't gonna cut me any slack if I got robbed, let alone if I decide to do some charity work... so I heartlessly took his money.

I won't even talk about the money I took from the poor hooker whose pimp left her standing out in the rain when I dropped her off, who I left there in the rain because she didn't have the money to pay for a ride anywhere else.

The idealization of heartlessness is reason enough to develop a drinking problem...

(Yaaay classical liberalism!!)
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, the owner of the company pretty much made that kind of "service" mandatory.
I doubt she would have let your slide on the lease if you told her that you were driving people who needed it around for free.
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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Not only that LooseWilly, but all of your profit is reviled.
Edited on Tue Sep-27-11 09:30 PM by Zanzoobar
You are the thief and they are the victims of your greed. Shame on you.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Yes, shame on me...
I was the thief... and they were the victims of my greed. My greed was required to feed the greed of the company owner who leased me the taxi...

Yes, shame on me. I did awful things... and heartless things.

Seriously. I did awful things. I also did heartless things. I threw people out of the cab in neighborhoods where they were liable to be mistaken for rival dealers and literally liable to be killed. I did it more than once.

Put me back in that position, and I'm liable to do it again.

Hell, I had a stash of cash ready so I could flee the country in the event that I killed someone. It may sound like some sort of crazy exaggeration on a message board... but go out and work the streets for 6 months, a year, 5 years... and you'll know what I mean... the sheer unregulated capitalism of the job meant... violence was inevitable. I know drivers that went to jail for hitting people that assaulted them. I kept innocuous weapons handy all over the place... and enough money to flee the country handy just in case.

You think Travis Bickle is a fictional character?... No— there're Travis Bickle's in every metropolitan area... I was one... The only thing that kept me from killing anyone was that I never became fixated enough on any of the hookers or politicians I came in contact with (though it was sometimes hard to tell the difference).
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. Virtually all of us are in that boat.

In capitalist society it is participation or marginalization. Workers make profits for the owner, small business make a profit or goes under. We survive or we starve, there is no social contract. One may survive by working in an exploitative job, as Willie points out it is not conducive to sweet dreams, but survive we must. The important thing is that we strive to change the society which makes these sort of necessities.

k&r
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. Ironically... the heartlessness I learned on that job is very easily turned on the Powers That Be...
And at this point I think I could knife a CEO and peacefully, after a few drinks, sleep like a contented puppy.



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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Part of the 'rope they sell us'...

They create the conditions of their own demise.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Heh... aye— I could lynch a CEO too.
That would be kind of fun actually...

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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Could it be that the Reagan Gop Capitalism--Conservative
Economic Fundamentalism also called Free Market Principles
creates the Individualism and Greed.

Capitalism saved by FDR which operated successfully in
this country from around 1945 to the Seventies and
produced a Vibrant Middle Class, SS, Medicare, Safety Netfor Poor
Civll Rights and the successes go on. All of this
happened under a Capitalist system.

Capitalism is an economic system which is a tool that
can be used for good or for not so good. Unfettered Capitalism
is the danger. Regulated Capitalism works.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It keeps getting unregulated though.
That's because our state is in the service of the capitalists. What makes more sense? Taking the fruits of capitalism and making a basis for a new society? Or keep rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic over and over and over and over...when do we admit that the definition of "working" is starting to get stretched pretty thin? And in the meantime, horrible things are happening. People are croaking in the thousands in steerage, OHdem10.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Your 'regulated' capitalism, as you state, lasted at best 30 years
and still relies on millions of workers laboring for the few owners. As Rick Perry would say, that's a Ponzi Scheme at best.

I think we can do better.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Want a return to the post WWII boom? Okay, here are the materail conditions you need:
1. A war that devastates the industry in the most of the world, but leaves the U.S. untouched.
2. A highly educated population, as the GI bill allowed many people to go to college.
3. A rival superpower that promotes revolution and a rival system in order to keep the U.S. capitalists in check. Notice what happend when the USSR fell? Things here got really bad, because there was no competing system left to threaten the capitalists.

None of those conditions are going to be easy to meet especially number 1 and 2.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Nice post white_wolf.
:thumbsup:
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
31. Often symbolic and mostly temporary 'successes'
Because such things don't last under capitalism, not for most people..

Where are we now with the advances of the New Deal?

Civil rights - sure they look good on paper but how are material conditions looking today for black people and other minorities?

I'm not saying those questions have easy answers but given where we are today I think it is vital to take a critical look and as far as I can see, in a capitalist economy, under a government (party aside) whose greatest priority is to protect the assets of the ruling class, conditions are on a trajectory toward the worse, not the better.

Wealth disparity is obscene, higher than before. Our prison population is unbelievable for a supposedly 'civilized' country, and disproportionately black...

'Regulated' capitalism does not 'work', not for most of us on the planet. For one thing, regulations are rarely enforced when they do exist and for another, getting them in place and keeping them in place is a Sisyphean battle. The regulations may benefit the working class of one nation over another but most people are going to be losers in that game (see: so-called 'American middle class').

There is no doubt that capitalism rewards greed. It's no accident either, it's sort of the whole point. Why we cling to an economic system that cannot and will not work for the benefit of the majority of people (in the world or in the nation) I will never understand.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. You're just quoting somebody's opinion with no empirical data to back it up. n/t
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You aren't even quoting an opinion... let alone providing data.
How about at least responding to the substance of one of the quotes... rather than engaging in a dishonest attempt to argue about data in a thread dealing with opinion?

I dare you. :+
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. "Ancient Society"--Lewis Henry Morgan
http://books.google.com/books?id=UrmLQ_taPD4C&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's only 560 pages, you should get through it tonight in a jiff. We all know what an intellectual you are.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Now, if you are ready for the next book:
I direct your attention to the chapter entitled "The Pairing Family", which brings us to the process by which man moved out of communal life and drifted by degrees to ownership of property.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch02c.htm

Frederick Engels
Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State


3. The Pairing Family

A certain amount of pairing, for a longer or shorter period, already occurred in group marriage or even earlier; the man had a chief wife among his many wives (one can hardly yet speak of a favorite wife), and for her he was the most important among her husbands. This fact has contributed considerably to the confusion of the missionaries, who have regarded group marriage sometimes as promiscuous community of wives, sometimes as unbridled adultery. But these customary pairings were bound to grow more stable as the gens developed and the classes of “brothers“ and “sisters” between whom marriage was impossible became more numerous. The impulse given by the gens to the prevention of marriage between blood relatives extended still further. Thus among the Iroquois and most of the other Indians at the lower stage of barbarism we find that marriage is prohibited between all relatives enumerated in their system – which includes several hundred degrees of kinship. The increasing complication of these prohibitions made group marriages more and more impossible; they were displaced by the pairing family. In this stage, one man lives with one woman, but the relationship is such that polygamy and occasional infidelity remain the right of the men, even though for economic reasons polygamy is rare, while from the woman the strictest fidelity is generally demanded throughout the time she lives with the man, and adultery on her part is cruelly punished. The marriage tie can, however, be easily dissolved by either partner; after separation, the children still belong, as before, to the mother alone.

In this ever extending exclusion of blood relatives from the bond of marriage, natural selection continues its work. In Morgan’s words:

The influence of the new practice, which brought unrelated persons into the marriage relation, tended to create a more vigorous stock physically and mentally.... When two advancing tribes, with strong mental and physical characters, are brought together and blended into one people by the accidents of barbarous life, the new skull and brain would widen and lengthen to the sum of the capabilities of both.



Tribes with gentile constitution were thus bound to gain supremacy over more backward tribes, or else to carry them along by their example.

Thus the history of the family in primitive times consists in the progressive narrowing of the circle, originally embracing the whole tribe, within which the two sexes have a common conjugal relation. The continuous exclusion, first of nearer, then of more and more remote relatives, and at last even of relatives by marriage, ends by making any kind of group marriage practically impossible. Finally, there remains only the single, still loosely linked pair, the molecule with whose dissolution marriage itself ceases. This in itself shows what a small part individual sex-love, in the modern sense of the word, played in the rise of monogamy. Yet stronger proof is afforded by the practice of all peoples at this stage of development. Whereas in the earlier forms of the family men never lacked women, but, on the contrary, had too many rather than too few, women had now become scarce and highly sought after. Hence it is with the pairing marriage that there begins the capture and purchase of women – widespread symptoms, but no more than symptoms, of the much deeper change that had occurred. These symptoms, mere methods of procuring wives, the pedantic Scot, McLennan, has transmogrified into special classes of families under the names of “marriage by capture” and “marriage by purchase.” In general, whether among the American Indians or other peoples (at the same stage), the conclusion of a marriage is the affair, not of the two parties concerned, who are often not consulted at all, but of their mothers. Two persons entirely unknown to each other are often thus affianced; they only learn that the bargain has been struck when the time for marrying approaches. Before the wedding the bridegroom gives presents to the bride's gentile relatives (to those on the mother's side, therefore, not to the father and his relations), which are regarded as gift payments in return for the girl. The marriage is still terminable at the desire of either partner, but among many tribes, the Iroquois, for example, public opinion has gradually developed against such separations; when differences arise between husband and wife, the gens relatives of both partners act as mediators, and only if these efforts prove fruitless does a separation take place, the wife then keeping the children and each partner being free to marry again.

The pairing family, itself too weak and unstable to make an independent household necessary or even desirable, in no wise destroys the communistic household inherited from earlier times. Communistic housekeeping, however, means the supremacy of women in the house; just as the exclusive recognition of the female parent, owing to the impossibility of recognizing the male parent with certainty, means that the women – the mothers – are held in high respect. One of the most absurd notions taken over from eighteenth-century enlightenment is that in the beginning of society woman was the slave of man. Among all savages and all barbarians of the lower and middle stages, and to a certain extent of the upper stage also, the position of women is not only free, but honorable. As to what it still is in the pairing marriage, let us hear the evidence of Ashur Wright, for many years missionary among the Iroquois Senecas:

As to their family system, when occupying the old long-houses , it is probable that some one clan predominated, the women taking in husbands, however, from the other clans .... Usually, the female portion ruled the house.... The stores were in common; but woe to the luckless husband or lover who was too shiftless to do his share of the providing. No matter how many children, or whatever goods he might have in the house, he might at any time be ordered to pick up his blanket and budge; and after such orders it would not be healthful for him to attempt to disobey. The house would be too hot for him; and ... he must retreat to his own clan ; or, as was often done, go and start a new matrimonial alliance in some other. The women were the great power among the clans , as everywhere else. They did not hesitate, when occasion required, “to knock off the horns,” as it was technically called, from the head of a chief, and send him back to the ranks of the warriors.



The communistic household, in which most or all of the women belong to one and the same gens, while the men come from various gentes, is the material foundation of that supremacy of the women which was general in primitive times, and which it is Bachofen’s third great merit to have discovered. The reports of travelers and missionaries, I may add, to the effect that women among savages and barbarians are overburdened with work in no way contradict what has been said. The division of labor between the two sexes is determined by quite other causes than by the position of woman in society. Among peoples where the women have to work far harder than we think suitable, there is often much more real respect for women than among our Europeans. The lady of civilization, surrounded by false homage and estranged from all real work, has an infinitely lower social position than the hard-working woman of barbarism, who was regarded among her people as a real lady (lady, frowa, Frau – mistress) and who was also a lady in character.

Whether pairing marriage has completely supplanted group marriage in America today is a question to be decided by closer investigation among the peoples still at the upper stage of savagery in the northwest, and particularly in South America. Among the latter, so many instances of sexual license are related that one can hardly assume the old group marriage to have been completely overcome here. At any rate, all traces of it have not yet disappeared. In at least forty North American tribes the man who marries an eldest sister has the right to take all her other sisters as his wives as soon as they are old enough – a relic of the time when a whole line of sisters had husbands in common. And Bancroft reports of the Indians of the California peninsula (upper stage of savagery) that they have certain festivals when several “tribes” come together for the purpose of promiscuous sexual intercourse. These “tribes” are clearly gentes, who preserve in these feasts a dim memory of the time when the women of one gens had all the men of the other as their common husbands, and conversely. The same custom still prevails in Australia. We find among some peoples that the older men, the chieftains and the magician-priests, exploit the community of wives and monopolize most of the women for themselves; at certain festivals and great assemblies of the people, however, they have to restore the old community of women and allow their wives to enjoy themselves with the young men. Westermarck (History of Human Marriage, 1891, pp. 28, 29) quotes a whole series of instances of such periodic Saturnalian feasts, when for a short time the old freedom of sexual intercourse is again restored: examples are given among the Hos, the Santals, the Punjas and Kotars in India, among some African peoples, and so forth. Curiously enough, Westermarck draws the conclusion that these are survivals, not of the group marriage, which he totally rejects, but of the mating season which primitive man had in common with the other animals.

Here we come to Bachofen’s fourth great discovery – the widespread transitional form between group marriage and pairing. What Bachofen represents as a penance for the transgression of the old divine laws – the penance by which the woman purchases the right of chastity – is in fact only a mystical expression of the penance by which the woman buys herself out of the old community of husbands and acquires the right to give herself to one man only. This penance consists in a limited surrender: the Babylonian women had to give themselves once a year in the temple of Mylitta; other peoples of Asia Minor sent their girls for years to the temple of Anaitis, where they had to practice free love with favorites of their own choosing before they were allowed to marry. Similar customs in religious disguise are common to almost all Asiatic peoples between the Mediterranean and the Ganges. The sacrifice of atonement by which the woman purchases her freedom becomes increasingly lighter in course of time, as Bachofen already noted:

Instead of being repeated annually, the offering is made once only; the hetaerism of the matrons is succeeded by the hetaerism of the maidens; hetaerism during marriage by hetaerism before marriage; surrender to all without choice by surrender to some.

(Mutterrecht, p. xix.)

Among other peoples the religious disguise is absent. In some cases – among the Thracians, Celts, and others, in classical times, many of the original inhabitants of India, and to this day among the Malayan peoples, the South Sea Islanders and many American Indians – the girls enjoy the greatest sexual freedom up to the time of their marriage. This is especially the case almost everywhere in South America, as everyone who has gone any distance into the interior can testify. Thus Agassiz (A Journey in Brazil, Boston and New York, 1868, p. 266) tells this story of a rich family of Indian extraction: when he was introduced to the daughter, he asked after her father, presuming him to be her mother's husband, who was fighting as an officer in the war against Paraguay; but the mother answered with a smile: "Nao tem pai, e filha da fortuna" (She has no father. She is a child of chance):

It is the way the Indian or half-breed women here always speak of their illegitimate children . . . without an intonation of sadness or of blame.... So far is this from being an unusual case, that... the opposite seems the exception. Children are frequently quite ignorant of their parentage. They know about their mother, for all the care and responsibility falls upon her, but they have no knowledge of their father; nor does it seem to occur to the woman that she or her children have any claim upon him.

What seems strange here to civilized people is simply the rule according to mother-right and in group marriage.

Among other peoples, again, the friends and relatives of the bridegroom, or the wedding guests, claim their traditional right to the bride at the wedding itself, and the bridegroom's turn only comes last; this was the custom in the Balearic Islands and among the Augilers of Africa in ancient times; it is still observed among the Bareas of Abyssinia. In other cases, an official personage, the head of the tribe or the gens, cacique, shaman, priest, prince or whatever he may be called, represents the community and exercises the right of the first night with the bride. Despite all necromantic whitewashing, this jus prime noctis still persists today as a relic of group marriage among most of the natives of the Alaska region (Bancroft, Native Races, I, p. 8i), the Tahus of North Mexico (Ibid., P. 584) and other peoples; and at any rate in the countries originally Celtic, where it was handed down directly from group marriage, it existed throughout the whole of the middle ages, for example, in Aragon. While in Castile the peasants were never serfs, in Aragon there was serfdom of the most shameful kind right up till the decree of Ferdinand the Catholic in 1486. This document states:

We judge and declare that the aforementioned lords (senors, barons) ... when the peasant takes himself a wife, shall neither sleep with her on the first night; nor shall they during the wedding-night, when the wife has laid herself in her bed, step over it and the aforementioned wife as a sign of lordship; nor shall the aforementioned lords use the daughter or the son of the peasant, with payment or without payment, against their will.

(Quoted in the original Catalan by Sugenheim,
Serfdom, Petersburg, 1861, p. 35)

Bachofen is also perfectly right when he consistently maintains that the transition from what he calls “Hetaerism” or “Sumpfzeugung” to monogamy was brought about primarily through the women. The more the traditional sexual relations lost the native primitive character of forest life, owing to the development of economic conditions with consequent undermining of the old communism and growing density of population, the more oppressive and humiliating must the women have felt them to be, and the greater their longing for the right of chastity, of temporary or permanent marriage with one man only, as a way of release. This advance could not in any case have originated with the men, if only because it has never occurred to them, even to this day, to renounce the pleasures of actual group marriage. Only when the women had brought about the transition to pairing marriage were the men able to introduce strict monogamy – though indeed only for women.

The first beginnings of the pairing family appear on the dividing line between savagery and barbarism; they are generally to be found already at the upper stage of savagery, but occasionally not until the lower stage of barbarism. The pairing family is the form characteristic of barbarism, as group marriage is characteristic of savagery and monogamy of civilization. To develop it further, to strict monogamy, other causes were required than those we have found active hitherto. In the single pair the group was already reduced to its final unit, its two-atom molecule: one man and one woman. Natural selection, with its progressive exclusions from the marriage community, had accomplished its task; there was nothing more for it to do in this direction. Unless new, social forces came into play, there was no reason why a new form of family should arise from the single pair. But these new forces did come into play.

We now leave America, the classic soil of the pairing family. No sign allows us to conclude that a higher form of family developed here, or that there was ever permanent monogamy anywhere in America prior to its discovery and conquest. But not so in the Old World.

Here the domestication of animals and the breeding of herds had developed a hitherto unsuspected source of wealth and created entirely new social relations. Up to the lower stage of barbarism, permanent wealth had consisted almost solely of house, clothing, crude ornaments and the tools for obtaining and preparing food – boat, weapons, and domestic utensils of the simplest kind. Food had to be won afresh day by day. Now, with their herds of horses, camels, asses, cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs, the advancing pastoral peoples – the Semites on the Euphrates and the Tigris, and the Aryans in the Indian country of the Five Streams (Punjab), in the Ganges region, and in the steppes then much more abundantly watered of the Oxus and the Jaxartes – had acquired property which only needed supervision and the rudest care to reproduce itself in steadily increasing quantities and to supply the most abundant food in the form of milk and meat. All former means of procuring food now receded into the background; hunting, formerly a necessity, now became a luxury.

But to whom did this new wealth belong? Originally to the gens, without a doubt. Private property in herds must have already started at an early period, however. It is difficult to say whether the author of the so-called first book of Moses regarded the patriarch Abraham as the owner of his herds in his own right as head of a family community or by right of his position as actual hereditary head of a gens. What is certain is that we must not think of him as a property owner in the modern sense of the word. And it is also certain that at the threshold of authentic history we already find the herds everywhere separately owned by heads of families, as are the artistic products of barbarism – metal implements, luxury articles and, finally, the human cattle – the slaves.

For now slavery had also been invented. To the barbarian of the lower stage, a slave was valueless. Hence the treatment of defeated enemies by the American Indians was quite different from that at a higher stage. The men were killed or adopted as brothers into the tribe of the victors; the women were taken as wives or otherwise adopted with their surviving children. At this stage human labor-power still does not produce any considerable surplus over and above its maintenance costs. That was no longer the case after the introduction of cattle-breeding, metalworking, weaving and, lastly, agriculture. just as the wives whom it had formerly been so easy to obtain had now acquired an exchange value and were bought, so also with the forces of labor, particularly since the herds had definitely become family possessions. The family did not multiply so rapidly as the cattle. More people were needed to look after them; for this purpose use could be made of the enemies captured in war, who could also be bred just as easily as the cattle themselves.

Once it had passed into the private possession of families and there rapidly begun to augment, this wealth dealt a severe blow to the society founded on pairing marriage and the matriarchal gens. Pairing marriage had brought a new element into the family. By the side of the natural mother of the child it placed its natural and attested father, with a better warrant of paternity, probably, than that of many a “father” today. According to the division of labor within the family at that time, it was the man’s part to obtain food and the instruments of labor necessary for the purpose. He therefore also owned the instruments of labor, and in the event of husband and wife separating, he took them with him, just as she retained her household goods. Therefore, according to the social custom of the time, the man was also the owner of the new source of subsistence, the cattle, and later of the new instruments of labor, the slaves. But according to the custom of the same society, his children could not inherit from him. For as regards inheritance, the position was as follows:

At first, according to mother-right – so long, therefore, as descent was reckoned only in the female line – and according to the original custom of inheritance within the gens, the gentile relatives inherited from a deceased fellow member of their gens. His property had to remain within the gens. His effects being insignificant, they probably always passed in practice to his nearest gentile relations – that is, to his blood relations on the mother's side. The children of the dead man, however, did not belong to his gens, but to that of their mother; it was from her that they inherited, at first conjointly with her other blood relations, later perhaps with rights of priority; they could not inherit from their father, because they did not belong to his gens, within which his property had to remain. When the owner of the herds died, therefore, his herds would go first to his brothers and sisters and to his sister’s children, or to the issue of his mother’s sisters. But his own children were disinherited.

Thus, on the one hand, in proportion as wealth increased, it made the man’s position in the family more important than the woman’s, and on the other hand created an impulse to exploit this strengthened position in order to overthrow, in favor of his children, the traditional order of inheritance. This, however, was impossible so long as descent was reckoned according to mother-right. Mother-right, therefore, had to be overthrown, and overthrown it was. This was by no means so difficult as it looks to us today. For this revolution – one of the most decisive ever experienced by humanity – could take place without disturbing a single one of the living members of a gens. All could remain as they were. A simple decree sufficed that in the future the offspring of the male members should remain within the gens, but that of the female should be excluded by being transferred to the gens of their father. The reckoning of descent in the female line and the matriarchal law of inheritance were thereby overthrown, and the male line of descent and the paternal law of inheritance were substituted for them. As to how and when this revolution took place among civilized peoples, we have no knowledge. It falls entirely within prehistoric times. But that it did take place is more than sufficiently proved by the abundant traces of mother-right which have been collected, particularly by Bachofen. How easily it is accomplished can be seen in a whole series of American Indian tribes, where it has only recently taken place and is still taking place under the influence, partly of increasing wealth and a changed mode of life (transference from forest to prairie), and partly of the moral pressure of civilization and missionaries. Of eight Missouri tribes, six observe the male line of descent and inheritance, two still observe the female. Among the Shawnees, Miamis and Delawares the custom has grown up of giving the children a gentile name of their father's gens in order to transfer them into it, thus enabling them to inherit from him.

Man“s innate casuistry! To change things by changing their names! And to find loopholes for violating tradition while maintaining tradition, when direct interest supplied sufficient impulse. (Marx.)

The result was hopeless confusion, which could only be remedied and to a certain extent was remedied by the transition to father-right. “In general, this seems to be the most natural transition.” (Marx.) For the theories proffered by comparative jurisprudence regarding the manner in which this change was effected among the civilized peoples of the Old World – though they are almost pure hypotheses see M. Kovalevsky, Tableau des origines et de l'evolution de la famille et de la propriete. Stockholm, 1890.

The overthrow of mother-right was the world historical defeat of the female sex. The man took command in the home also; the woman was degraded and reduced to servitude, she became the slave of his lust and a mere instrument for the production of children. This degraded position of the woman, especially conspicuous among the Greeks of the heroic and still more of the classical age, has gradually been palliated and glozed over, and sometimes clothed in a milder form; in no sense has it been abolished.

The establishment of the exclusive supremacy of the man shows its effects first in the patriarchal family, which now emerges as an intermediate form. Its essential characteristic is not polygyny, of which more later, but “the organization of a number of persons, bond and free, into a family, under paternal power, for the purpose of holding lands, and for the care of flocks and herds.... (In the Semitic form) the chiefs, at least, lived in polygamy.... Those held to servitude, and those employed as servants, lived in the marriage relation.”



Its essential features are the incorporation of unfree persons, and paternal power; hence the perfect type of this form of family is the Roman. The original meaning of the word “family” (familia) is not that compound of sentimentality and domestic strife which forms the ideal of the present-day philistine; among the Romans it did not at first even refer to the married pair and their children, but only to the slaves. Famulus means domestic slave, and familia is the total number of slaves belonging to one man. As late as the time of Gaius, the familia, id est patrimonium (family, that is, the patrimony, the inheritance) was bequeathed by will. The term was invented by the Romans to denote a new social organism, whose head ruled over wife and children and a number of slaves, and was invested under Roman paternal power with rights of life and death over them all.

This term, therefore, is no older than the iron-clad family system of the Latin tribes, which came in after field agriculture and after legalized servitude, as well as after the separation of Greeks and Latins.



Marx adds:

The modern family contains in germ not only slavery (servitus), but also serfdom, since from the beginning it is related to agricultural services. It contains in miniature all the contradictions which later extend throughout society and its state.

Such a form of family shows the transition of the pairing family to monogamy. In order to make certain of the wife’s fidelity and therefore of the paternity of the children, she is delivered over unconditionally into the power of the husband; if he kills her, he is only exercising his rights.


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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. That's basically the same thing.
A Marxist gives their version of history, with no reference to anything outside the essay, and none of it testable.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Testable on whom?
It's part of the oral history and fossil record. Don't they have museums in Chicago?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Also, there are Amazonian pre-contact tribes
that have been living in the way described in both books for centuries. They are still alive and living communally in secretly observed situations by anthropologists. :shrug: Didn't you have anthro 101 in college? Lewis Morgan is the Charles Darwin of Anthropology...
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. The Native Americans also lived like that.
And they also had much more equality among the sexes. The Iroquois Confederacy was ran by Women's councils, who shared power with the men.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes indeed! Correct.
"The Iroquois Gens"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch03.htm


The great majority of the American Indians did not advance to any higher form of association than the tribe. Living in small tribes, separated from one another by wide tracts between their frontiers, weakened by incessant wars, they occupied an immense territory with few people. Here and there alliances between related tribes came into being in the emergency of the moment and broke up when the emergency had passed. But in certain districts tribes which were originally related and had then been dispersed, joined together again in permanent federations, thus taking the first step towards the formation of nations. In the United States we find the most developed form of such a federation among the Iroquois. Emigrating from their homes west of the Mississippi, where they probably formed a branch of the great Dakota family, they settled after long wanderings in what is now the State of New York. They were divided into five tribes: Senecas, Cayugas, Onondagas, Oneidas and Mohawks. They subsisted on fish, game, and the products of a crude horticulture, and lived in villages, which were generally protected by a stockade. Never more than twenty thousand strong, they had a number of gentes common to all the five tribes, spoke closely related dialects of the same language, and occupied a continuous stretch of territory which was divided up among the five tribes. As they had newly conquered this territory, these tribes were naturally accustomed to stand together against the Inhabitants they had driven out. From this developed, at the beginning of the fifteenth century at latest, a regular “everlasting league,” a sworn confederacy, which in the consciousness of its new strength immediately assumed an aggressive character, and at the height of its power, about 1675, conquered wide stretches of the surrounding country, either expelling the inhabitants or making them pay tribute. The Iroquois confederacy represents the most advanced social organization achieved by any Indians still at the lower stage of barbarism (excluding, therefore, the Mexicans, New Mexicans and Peruvians).

The main provisions of the confederacy were as follows:

1. Perpetual federation of the five consanguineous tribes on the basis of complete equality and independence in all internal matters of the tribe. This bond of kin represented the real basis of the confederacy. Of the five tribes, three were known as father tribes and were brother tribes to one another; the other two were known as son tribes, and were likewise brother tribes to one another. Three gentes, the oldest, still had their living representatives in all five tribes, and another three in three tribes; the members of each of these gentes were all brothers of one another throughout all the five tribes. Their common language, in which there were only variations of dialect, was the expression and the proof of their common descent.

2. The organ of the confederacy was federal council of fifty sachems, all equal in rank and authority; the decisions of this council were final in all matters relating to the confederacy.

3. The fifty sachems were distributed among the tribes and gentes at the foundation of the confederacy to hold the new offices specially created for federal purposes. They were elected by the respective gentes whenever a vacancy occurred and could be deposed by the gentes at any time; but the right of investing them with their office belonged to the federal council.

4. These federal sachems were also sachems in their respective tribes, and had a seat and a vote in the tribal council.

5. All decisions of the federal council had to be unanimous.

6. Voting was by tribes, so that for a decision to be valid every tribe and all members of the council in every tribe had to signify their agreement.

7. Each of the five tribal councils could convene the federal council, but it could not convene itself.

8. The meetings of the council were held in the presence of the assembled people; every Iroquois could speak; the council alone decided.

9. The confederacy had no official head or chief executive officer.

10. On the other hand, the council had two principal war-chiefs, with equal powers and equal authority (the two "kings" of the Spartans, the two consuls in Rome).

That was the whole public constitution under which the Iroquois lived for over four hundred years and are still living today. I have described it fully, following Morgan, because here we have the opportunity of studying the organization of a society which still has no state. The state presupposes a special public power separated from the body of the people, and Maurer, who with a true instinct recognizes that the constitution of the German mark is a purely social institution, differing essentially from the state, though later providing a great part of its basis, consequently investigates in all his writings the gradual growth of the public power out of, and side by side with, the primitive constitutions of marks, villages, homesteads, and towns. Among the North American Indians we see how an originally homogeneous tribe gradually spreads over a huge continent; how through division tribes become nations, entire groups of tribes; how the languages change until they not only become unintelligible to other tribes, but also lose almost every trace of their original identity; how at the same time within the tribes each gens splits up into several gentes, how the old mother gentes are preserved as phratries, while the names of these oldest gentes nevertheless remain the same in widely distant tribes that have long been separated-the Wolf and the Bear are still gentile names among a majority of all Indian tribes. And the constitution described above applies in the main to them all, except that many of them never advanced as far as the confederacy of related tribes.



Of course, Engels was writing about this state still being in existence in his time in the 19th century. I suppose our skeptical friend would account that all mere speculation. People alive then only wrote about their "opinions" when observing established social structures. :crazy:
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Marx has a lot of support for his theories.
I suggest you read the Communist Manifesto or if you feeling very ambitious try Das Kapital.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. 'They are called capitalists and there isn't any rule that we have to keep them'
:thumbsup:

K&R
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thank you leftstreet!
;)
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. That you comrade?
Edited on Tue Sep-27-11 11:40 PM by moondust
Some people would naturally step in here and say that that selflessness of which you speak was essentially the experiment known as Soviet communism, and that it ultimately failed.

Back during the Soviet era there were stories about how the central government eventually allowed peasants and commune workers to have their own garden plots and sell the produce at markets. This little bit of private enterprise was apparently wildly popular and boosted morale as it gave people something of their own to care for and benefit from, however modest, after a long day of working selflessly for the commune/state. I never knew how much of those stories was actually true and how much was capitalist propaganda for people like myself who would never set foot inside the Soviet Union.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Some people would.
Edited on Tue Sep-27-11 11:56 PM by Starry Messenger
I would say that 70 years for a world-wide historical first is not a bad try, and there are socialist states still in existence today. The Communist Party of the Russian Federation is also gaining in strength and popularity in the aftermath of the total ruin that capitalism has brought to their society. I wouldn't count them out yet, though of course things will take a different form. History does not repeat itself exactly.

The Soviet Union allowed different forms of personal commerce. The main thing forbidden was private ownership of industry and the "commanding heights" of the economy. Entrepreneurship as we know it did not really exist. But depending on the needs of the planned economy, several changes were made throughout the years and experiments were tried out.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I'd like to propose a challenge to the critics of the USSR.
You just led a revolution and overthrow a dynasty that had ruled for nearly 300 years. Now, you have to begin building a new society, but there are a few catches. First of all your country is still a semi-feudal nation, so you have to begin the difficult process of modernizing the industry. Also, you are in the middle of a world war, but you manage to get of that.

Awesome right, oh wait, now a civil war has started, and your opponents are being supported by 17 rival nations, most of whom are much wealthier and more advanced than you. After six years you manage to win the war. Oh, more bad news. A year later you die, and then the very person you requested to be removed from power, actually gains more power and undoes all of your work, and exiles one of your strongest allies.

In those conditions could you do as good, let alone better, than Lenin and Trotsky?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "Anti-communism is capitalist ideology"-Gus Hall
(Gus Hall, 'The most basic fact of life: the class struggle', People's Weekly World, April 5, 1997)

It honestly wouldn't matter what the excuse is, what country that the "criticisms" are leveled at. The entire planet of Mars could be Communist and cure cancer and death through central planning and people would still pop-up "worried" that folks couldn't sell their own veggies. How many people really grow and sell their own shit today? I live in an apartment with barely living houseplants and I still manage to participate in society. This idea that everyone "needs" to have this "freedom" to sell crap is basic defense of the status quo.

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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Good question. How many, indeed?
The vast majority of sellers are large muti-national corporations. I know some people will bring up "mom and pop" stores, but honestly how many of them are left? My town doesn't have any, all we have are Wal-Mart and Target. Even if I wanted to start a store(which I don't), I'd never last very long against the giants. Even something niche that I know a lot about, say video games, I can't compete with Best Buy, Gamestop, Wal-Mart, etc. In fact I've seen 3 small game stores open in my town and they never last a year. The vast majority of people don't even have any freedom to sell things now.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. "Freedom" to sell crap is basic defense of the status quo" -
I agree. Further, "freedom" to exploit in many ways to sell crap is what the status quo is really protecting here. Capitalism not only rewards such behavior but demands it. Exploit your workers (lowest wages possible so you can make your profit), exploit your customers (charge as much as possible so you can make your profit), exploit resources (whatever you need to make your product).

Capitalism=Exploitation, and any "regulating" to tone it down is only a band-aid (or in the case of oil companies we deal with here in the heartland - simply a cost of doing business - ie they'll pay the fine rather than toning down the air pollution because in the end it is cheaper).

We gotta do better than this if we are to survive as a species.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. +1
The cutthroat system is now at its most exploitative in human history. Fracking is now literally cracking open the shell of the earth to pull out the last bits of profit and poisoning the groundwater. Is everyone in this country going to have taste chemicals in their tap water, watch their children die, to get how this system is ruining our future?
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. There is no social contract.
That is one of the hallmarks of capitalism. Even the serfs had that, a guarantee of land to provide their sustenance. Workers in capitalist society have none of that, accept the prevailing wage or starve. This is one of the reasons that capitalism superseded feudalism, the exploiters have no obligations.

We shall have a social contract:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. "Even the serfs had that"
Bingo. "Freed" from this compact the only choice they had remaining was to labor for owners or die of exposure. The Soviets removed the exploitation of man by man, a world-wide epic achievement. We will get there again, it is the future.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. We will likely have a better shot at it than the Soviets did.
We won't have to contend with a backwards economy, two world wars, a civil war, and a cold war. The USSR in 1917 was the most free society that has ever existed.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
29. Excellent post! K&R
You have led the horses to water...
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. And you'd think they'd be pretty thirsty right about now..
Edited on Wed Sep-28-11 08:54 AM by Cal Carpenter
K & R.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. And the water is cool and satisfying.
If more folks would just read the material and make their own judgements, rather than rely on the lifetime of propaganda...ah well...
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. I like your avatar Dhalgren.
;)
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
39. it's the old commodity fetish... K&R
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Thank you amborin!
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raouldukelives Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-11 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. K&R
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