The Cost To Women Of "2 Broke Girls"

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

The new CBS television show "2 Broke Girls" about two waitresses struggling to succeed in New York City is an unfortunate choice of titles, for it reinforces the old stereotype that women are less than men. As a friend pointed out, if this was a show about two young African-American men trying to make it in the big city, would they call it "2 Broke Boys?" The CBS show that follows "2 Broke Girls" is "Two And A Half Men," where even the boy counts as half a man.

This is an important issue. According to the latest U.S. Census Bureau figures, women earn just 77 cents for every dollar a man is paid to do the same job. But this may seem fitting for she is comparatively a child in the minds of men. In the movies and television, a woman marries or dates a man, a man marries or dates a "girl," not a woman, and who by definition is a child and treated as less than him as an adult.

In the workplace, a man or woman works for a man, not a boy but he or she may on occasion work for a "girl." So not only are women paid less, but promotions over men are scarce. In giant corporations the senior management are almost always men, the "girls" serve as their "executive assistants." To end this discriminatory process, we must rid ourselves of the stereotype of women being girls and extend to them the respect men receive, and along with it, the promotions and the paychecks.

http://sane-ramblings.blogspot.com/

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. What? Really? Sheesh, some people in real life struggle to make ends meet.

I have no problem with the shows' name or concept.

[tblue37]

3. The insult is not in the description "broke" but in the label "girls." nt

[gateley]

4. Much ado about nothing, IMO.

I don't care if someone refers to me as a girl -- I know who I am and that's what's important. I'm not defined by others' choice of words.

[saras]

58. does that logic work for the n-word? how about the c-word for female genitalia?

Some people, after all, don't mind being called either term.

[gateley]

61. The c word doesn't bother me at all, either.

It's just a word.

The N word was used toward a people who were hated and regarded as nothing more than animals and possessions.

I understand that women were once held in such low regard, but not to the extent that blacks have been.

I don't believe there's the irrational hatred behind "girls" and the c-work that there is behind the N word.

[Bucky]

125. Which c-word?

I know of at least three synonyms for cooter that start with the letter C.

By the way, that would make for an awesome sigfile quote.

[gateley]

128. Any of them. nt

[Bucky]

149. Nice post, Governor Palin

Well, ^Governor/₂

[DrunkenBoat]

86. I think there's a big difference with the n-word. It's nearly always used as a conscious term of

derision except between friends of the same race.

The c-word when used to refer to people is always used as a term of conscious derision as well, except in very rare cases similar to the above (friends).

"Girls" is not generally used consciously as a term of derision, nor does it have the same sting/nasty feel as the words above. Nor has it been generally deemed an inexcusable term by society. The contexts in which its use is inexcusable (clearly malicious or derogatory) are not universal -- it depends more on the situation.

You personally may find it inexcusable when used to refer to anyone older than a 15-year-old, but that's a different thing.

[Gormy Cuss]

65. If you think that you're NOT defined differently when called a girl, you're naive.

Calling adult women girls is little different from calling adult African-American men boys. The sooner women object to this categorization, the sooner the damn thing goes away.

[gateley]

105. Fine. I'm naive. I've been called worse. I don't care how

others define me. They can think what they want. I know me and their views don't diminish me.

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. Oh...well, I just don't get it. I hope the show is good is all I can say on the matter.

[JuniperLea]

17. As a female actor...

I loved being called a girl for years past the time I was one... it keeps the idea of being an ingenue fresh... it's a fleeting time in a female actor's life.

[DrunkenBoat]

94. May I ask why you call yourself an "actor"? I know it's become common,

but I've never understood why being called an "actress" was problematic in the first place. It seems to me to be a functional word in that dramatic roles are differentiated by sex.

IMO, this subsumation of "actress" by "actor" is a case of mistaking the map for the territory.

[JuniperLea]

140. Some languages dictate the masculine or feminine word choice...

In English, I can choose. It's the same principle that changed our word usage when referring to flight attendants instead of stewards or stewardesses. English doesn't require it so I prefer not to make a distinction. It used to be that there were only male actors allowed on stage... I always felt it was a lesser word, this actress of which you speak.

[piratefish08]

39. unless those 'Girls' are 'Golden'!

[Erose999]

119. post delete

[zappaman]

5. wow

over-react much?

[seabeyond]

6. yes, we have to get over it. working on my guys here at home. decided it is because age with WOMEN

is an insult. by ALL of society and the use of girl or lady to replace woman is to avoid the "age" description. i found myself slipping on that and corrected me. i bring it up with hubby when he says girl. how old i ask. 50 he says. GIRL? i say. ok, lady he says. LADY? i ask. do we say gentleman, ever?

my boys do the same thing. so ingrained in culture. i think we feel we are insulting women calling them women which is really STUPID.

[RadiationTherapy]

9. I work at a university and do the work of saying "young men" and "young men".

It is important.

[seabeyond]

14. we really are condition and it really does not hurt us to go against conditioning.

once i got beyond the uncomfortable of saying woman (which i find absurd that i would feel that way) i feel so much better embracing the simple fact of talking about an adult then a little girl... when talking about adult.

now, with the young men and women, like 20. i cant say men and women. i gotta say guys and gals. cause i dont feel the adult and i didnt when i was that age either.

but in your position, i understand.

[DrunkenBoat]

87. I think that age thing is quite right, actually. We say "old lady" too, but not

"old gentleman".

Personally I'm more worried about how people treat me. Unless their language is clearly intended to offend, I try not to be offended.

[seabeyond]

92. that is why i am not hugely bothered, but connected to sensitivity to women aging is harmful

to not only women but society as a whole. we really have to give women a break and allow them to age and still valued. i am never one that feels it is healthy to live in a delusion, rather than truth. to me, truth is not painful. reducing a woman to ageless i think is more harmful for us.

[DrunkenBoat]

98. Old women are *not* generally valued unless they have money, power, or in their role

of grandma or mother.

That's the truth.

But it's the truth for men too, just less obvious because older men tend to have more money/power.

But it has nothing to do with language. That's where people get confused. And it's not a "choice" we make as individuals, to value or not value, as you seem to think. The fact is that our society is organized so that old people have no value as workers or sex partners, and no future "potential" -- unless they happen to have money, property, or power.

People -- and the meaning of language -- reflects that REALITY, not the reverse.

[seabeyond]

101. i dont agree. i think they feed each other, i think there is a lot of evidence of it

people use language in all kinds of manners to control, dominate, condition, ect.

[DrunkenBoat]

102. Who is "they" & "each other" in "they feed each other"?

If you mean language feeds social practice & vice versa, I don't really agree except on the margins, & here's why: our view of the matter comes from the fact that european languages are highly gendered -- one must *necessarily* refer to "he" or "she" in most european languages, & even noun, verb & adjective endings are gendered.

However, many of the world's languages are not -- yet the societies where those languages are spoken have/had sexual discrimination just the same as ours.

Chinese is a notable example; the near-complete absence of any kind of gendered markings or necessity to refer to gender at all didn't prevent Chinese society from being intensely male-dominant for the same portion of its history as Europe's:

The Chinese language or languages/topolects are largely gender-neutral, and possess few linguistic gender markers, even though the Chinese society has historically been shown to have significant degree of male dominance in the social structure as well as education and literature.

Comprehension of written and spoken Chinese is almost wholly dependent on word order, as it has no inflections for gender, tense, or case.

A Chinese word is thus inherently gender-neutral, but any given word can be preceded by an adjective/root indicating masculinity or femininity. For example, the word for "doctor" is 'yisheng' and can only be made gender-specific by adding the root for "male" or "female" to the front of it; thus to specify a male doctor, one would need to prefix 'nán'.....

Under normal circumstances both male and female doctors would simply be referred to as yisheng...

The character for "she", containing the "woman" radical (glyphic element of a character's composition), was invented in the late nineteenth or early twentieth century due to western influence; prior to this, the character indicating "he" today was used for both genders — it contains the "person" radical, which, as noted above, is not gender-specific (likewise there exists a written feminine form for "you", 妳, which is almost never used).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutrality_in_genderless_languages


I'm a marxist on this point: economic & social practice is the root of the various "discriminations," not *language*. Language may encode existing practice *on the margins*, but the european languages didn't become "gendered" because of discriminatory social practice, and "un-gendering" them won't get rid of discriminatory social practice.

[seabeyond]

104. you say old people are not valued by society and doesnt have to do with language.

i am saying that yes, society does not appreciate the old but i think the language we use absolutely does feed our mentality that allows us to not value old. and no, the devaluing our old has not always been.

off to bed.

[DrunkenBoat]

106. I just wrote a lengthy explanation of why I feel different about the role of language.

You ignored it.

I understand your opinion is different, but you offer no support for it.

You can 'feel" whatever you like, of course.

And no, devaluing the old *hasn't* always been. Neither has devaluing women.

This is because under different economic arrangements, old people & women had more social power. Period, end of story.

Who gets "devalued" in society reflects the REAL SOCIOECONOMIC POWER STRUCTURE IN THAT SOCIETY. It's not because of "bad people" or "bad manners". It's because THEY REALLY ARE LESS POWERFUL, LESS WEALTHY, LESS IMPORTANT IN THE PREVAILING ORDER.

[RadiationTherapy]

7. This is a real problem with language.

"Girl" is a patriarchal term in most contexts, including this one.

[Taverner]

8. I disagree. Having said that, I rarely watch corporate propaganda.

Which most television is.

[RadiationTherapy]

11. You disagree that referring to someone as a pre-adolescent dimishes their power?

[Taverner]

12. "Girls" and "Boys" do not implicitly refer to pre-adoslecent

After all, was the show "The Golden Girls" sexist?

[JuniperLea]

19. Bravo!

Brava~!

[DrunkenBoat]

99. Why use gendered endings when you don't use "actress"?

[JuniperLea]

138. Why ask questions when it's clearly a joke?

Seriously... you got the joke, so bravo on you. I would still, out of respect for other cultures, use 'brava' when cheering my favorite Italian soprano. It's their language that dictates the feminine or masculine word, not me.

Someone smart enough to know the difference ought to be clever enough to understand that there are culture and language usages that are firm.

[RadiationTherapy]

20. It most often does, though. And, yes, it was.

And when white men in "those days" called black men boys, it was to diminish them as men. It is the same dynamic.

[Taverner]

24. Context. It is all about context.

If the show was called "Two Broke Chicks" you might have a point, but "Two Broke Girls" is hardly sexist.

[RadiationTherapy]

26. Calling women girls or black men boys diminishes their experiences and all the word "adult" entails.

But, yes, context is everything for language. That point stands alone. Can you explain the context of calling them "girls" on the show?

[Taverner]

27. So by calling the Economists from UoC the "Chicago Boys" diminishing them?

[JanMichael]

35. I hope it does! They had/have juvenile concepts of economic policy.

However it is mostly used to denote a youthful image of quick witted fiery men. Which of course is propaganda.

[Taverner]

38. It's all propaganda

And in the end, it's all irrelevant

The real problem is 'Why are these women broke? Why are we broke?'

[DrunkenBoat]

100. +100. That *is* the real problem, & obsessing over terms of address is the silly distraction

the ruling class places before us to avoid discussion of the real issues.

[seabeyond]

103. you are being contradictive. on the one hand saying language does not effect yet

on the other hand saying words like n))))) and c^^^^ were used in a manner that was effect

[DrunkenBoat]

108. I'm sorry, I find your sentence impossible to understand. If you could rephrase

maybe I could answer you.

I think you mean "language doesn't affect (something) but using n-word & c-word...and I don't get the rest at all.

[DrunkenBoat]

111. so calling the "chicago boys" boys is to connote a youthful, quickwitted image?

but calling black men "boys" is to connote subservience, and calling young women 'girls" is as well?

can't you see that these meanings you're finding aren't *in* the word, but in the socio-cultural context & to some extent your own subjectivity?

the "word" is essentially the same in each example: a gendered term meaning "young".


denotation = literal or surface meaning; the 'definition,' if you will (boy = young male).

connotation = subjective/emotional/cultural/situational/contextual meaning

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

43. Anyone remember "Homeboys In Space"?

It was on UPN, geared toward the AA demographic.

[uppityperson]

32. You seriously don't see the inequality, the sexism in "two broke girls" vs "two and a half men"?

Young men are "men", young women are "girls". Simply because some women refer to themselves as girls, aka "golden girls", 4 older women, you cannot see the inequality here?

[Taverner]

36. There are plenty of shows about men with "boys" in the title

Go after the real problem - that is broke people

A lot of us, boys and girls, men and women, are broke

You can complain about the terminology, or you can do something about the problem

[uppityperson]

46. I am talking sexism, you are talking being broke. 2 different problems, however

the inequality of wages is also based on sexism. Calling women "girls" perpetuates sexism.

[DrunkenBoat]

95. Why is it sexist to say "Two Broke Girls" but not to say "homeboy"?

I think that's what the poster is asking.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

42. Ever watch "2 And A Half Men"?

It's a downright insult to men everywhere, but portraying males as barely functioning morons on television is apparently not worthy of outrage.

[uppityperson]

47. Nope, haven't seen either show. Just don't like females being "girls", males being "men"

find that sexist. That is my only point.

[Riftaxe]

52. Ahh, yes, referring to a guy as half a man

will get you far in life.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

81. Ever heard of the TV show "My Boys"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Boys

And the "half" in Two and a Half Men is implying the boy in the show.

[DrunkenBoat]

93. That's another context in which "boys" is commonly used -- parents talking about their

grown sons, as an alternative to "sons".

If people think about it, they will come to the conclusion that "boys" is sometimes used to refer to young men, or even grown men. Rarer than "girls" is to refer to women, but not unheard of.

[Pool Hall Ace]

136. Sometimes I wonder about that!

The longer the show runs and Jake approaches adulthood, it seems like Charlie is the "half" !! :)

[seabeyond]

25. when my boys were little, 2, 3 and on, people wanted to call them young men. i NEVER

heard anyone want to call a little girl..... young woman. ever.

that says something.

i would tell people, ... no, not man, boy. and roll my eyes to my kids. they got it.

[Riftaxe]

53. Really? young woman was used often

when I was growing up, especially when they had tested a parent's patience.

[seabeyond]

56. i heard/hear young lady often. never... young woman. never as in

not once

[Riftaxe]

59. very well might have been

regional, like those silly people who call soda, pop or tonic :)

or call grinders, hoagies or po'boys or submarine sandwhiches.

[DrunkenBoat]

112. could be.

[DrunkenBoat]

107. i never heard two-year-olds referred to as "young men" either. so i guess we're even.

young man/young lady -- i have heard parents use when they're angry at their children: ("Go to your room immediately, young lady/young man") maybe from about 6 years into teen years.

[DrunkenBoat]

109. how old are "your boys" now?

[DrunkenBoat]

89. Or "The Boys of Summer"? (about baseball players).

The Backstreet Boys

The Boys are Back in Town

Cowboy

"The Boy is Mine"

"The Boy Next Door"

Billionaire Boys' Club

Boyfriend

"Boy Named Sue"

Boy band

"Boyz in the Hood"

Rude Boys

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idiotgardener]

10. I pretty much agree.

The show is better than I expected it to be, but I do find the title a little insulting. I also think the title is very unimaginative, like it was the working title and they never came up with anything better.

[Bonhomme Richard]

15. I got the impression that they would work together to create...

their own business. I don't find that demeaning at all. Just the opposite
I only saw the first episode so maybe I got it wrong.

[hfojvt]

16. and just when women were recovering from

"The Golden Girls"

[Motown_Johnny]

18. So is "New Girl" also demeaning to women?

'cause I like that show too.

[RadiationTherapy]

23. Calling a woman a girl diminishes her age, experience, and power.

That doesn't necessarily speak to the content of either show.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

37. Oh Boo.

You are only offended if you let yourself be.
I call myself a chick most of the time. Get over it. Girl is not an insult. Neither is Lady or woman. It is just how you allow yourself to feel about this crap.
If you would spend less time being offended, you'd probably have way less to worry about.
I mean, when someone calls me fat, I don't get all huffy and offended, I tell them "At least you know who to ask about the good restaurants in the area" and move on with my life.

[DrunkenBoat]

113. difference there is, if someone calls someone "fat" it's typically intended as critical,

as saying "you deviate from the norm/ideal" -- whereas when someone calls someone "girl" it's not typically (in my experience) intended to be critical or derogatory.

I agree with you, though. I much prefer overt criticism or rudeness to veiled. Easier to deal with, engage or dismiss, as you choose.

[Gormy Cuss]

132. So it's okay to call African-American men "boys" too, right?

Think about it.

FWIW, the fact that you aren't offended does not invalidate the offense taken by others.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

135. You are only offended if you allow yourself to be offended.

Calling African American men "boys" is an entirely different thing, in my opinion, something historically laced with disdain and racism. Overanalyzing a sitcom and getting offended at people you don't give a shit about and who don't give a shit about you? Moronic.

[Gormy Cuss]

137. Calling women 'girls' has a similar historical reference.

It's a framing used historically by men to keep women mindful of their place. There is a relatively short history in our own culture of women being treated like equals under laws, and an even shorter period of time where the majority of people think that women are equal to men. I know that some young women have reclaimed the term "girl" as a form of empowerment, but that's not the same as external labeling of women as girls.

The OP link isn't just about the sitcom, Duckie. The sitcom name was used as a jumping off point.

[piratefish08]

40. even That Girl?

Marlo would disagree!

:)

[HappyMe]

64. It only diminishes her if she lets it. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

21. They should just rename it "Laverne and Shirley" (n/m)

[jberryhill]

22. And society was just recovering from "Golden Girls"

Damn you, Bea Arthur!

[Owl]

28. The show is lighthearted fun. I enjoyed it.

[AngryOldDem]

29. Lighten up.

The things people get their pants in a wad about. It's a sitcom, for Christ's sake, not a dissertation on single female poverty in America. A featherweight title for a featherweight show.

I've not seen the show other than commercials, but from what I see "girls" fits these characters just fine, but then I tend not to get fired up over stuff like this.

[uppityperson]

30. "girls" vs "men" is demeaning, sexist and sends the wrong message indeed

haven't seen the show and your complaint doesn't seem to be the show but the title. I agree. k&r for understanding your point

[YellowRubberDuckie]

31. Oh my god you are over analyzing this.

If it were two broke dudes, it would not be nearly as funny. One girl is the business school graduate daughter of a dude that ripped off all of New York ala Bernie Madoff, and the other is an under achieving girl with two jobs just trying to survive. It's HILARIOUS. There was nothing sexist in the idea of it. Let go of reality for five minutes and enjoy a laugh.

[Liberal_in_LA]

34. notice you write "two broke dudes" rather than "two broke boys"

even you can't bring yourself to use 'boys' but 'girls' is ok.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

41. I never use the word boys.

I say dudes. It wasn't intentional. It was just my vernacular.

[white_wolf]

33. I think your over thinking this.

It's just a sitcom, not a social commentary.

[fishwax]

44. most women I know object to being called girls

And certainly would object to being called girls by anyone who wasn't very close to them.

I find the title grating, but haven't seen the actual show.

[calendargirl]

48. Most women I know don't.

But then we enjoy our Girls Nights Out. Women's Night Out sounds akin to a quilting bee. No thanks.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

67. Interesting point about "Girls Night Out"

I hear women use this term ALL the time. Guess it's time for the re-education camp!

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[trackfan]

85. It's just the opposite case with me.

Most women I know would be very upset with me if I did NOT call them girls. I guess it just depends on who you know.

[Shandris]

117. However, I don't think this is a symptom...

...of a general view of women in society, but a symptom of the kind of women you know -- ie, those likely to be offended at a title.

That's not condescending or anything, that's just a statement of observation. If you were referring to a single (not 'not married', but singular, one) woman and said, "Hey you! Girl!" then yes...I believe they would get offended and rightfully so. But if you ask her what she's doing this weekend with her GIRLfriends, I'll bet she'd say she was having a GIRL'S night out, or getting together with the GIRLS, or...

[fishwax]

129. Perhaps, though I would characterize them differently

"... a symptom of the kind of women you know -- ie, those likely to be offended at a title."

I don’t think the women I know are necessarily “likely to be offended by a title.” I do think that they are, among other things, attentive to the use and politics of language and to gender inequity in the workforce and elsewhere. (That’s not to say, of course, that people who don’t object to being called girl can’t also be attentive to such things; I’m just describing people I know.) I think that “object to” and “offended by” mean different things, both denotatively and connotatively. I feel pretty confident in saying most of the women I know would generally object to (i.e., dislike, make an argument against) being called a girl (some contextual specifics, particularly involving people who are close to them, notwithstanding). I can't say with any certainty that they would be offended (being personally angered or having their feelings hurt) by it. Perhaps many would, but I think that would be more of an individual thing and depend more on context.




“But if you ask her what she's doing this weekend with her GIRLfriends, I'll bet she'd say she was having a GIRL'S night out, or getting together with the GIRLS, or...”

Well, girlfriends is different from girls, and a group of women referring to themselves as “the girls” isn’t necessarily the same as being referred to by others as girls/the girls. But, yeah, phrases like that are certainly common. I guess that’s one of those contextual exceptions.

I would even say that it’s also slightly different from addressing women as girls—were a guy to respond “have a fun girls’ night out” he might get a different reaction than if he were to respond “I hope you girls have fun,” depending on such factors as how well he knows the woman/women. I probably wouldn’t say “I hope you girls have fun” to my wife and her friends (not, for the record, because they would be likely to be offended, though depending on the friend it might suggest a familiarity that they would be uncomfortable with). I might be slightly more likely to say it to my wife and her sister/s-in-law. I wouldn’t say it to my colleagues.

[seabeyond]

130. i dont get offended and i dont get angry, but i would probably say something. because i chose to

say something, doesnt mean i am angry or offended.

i love you post. i am simply confirming what you say.

i say womens night out. personally. i like the sound and feel of that better.

if someone calls me a girl i may say... girl? woman. take it for what it is worth. maybe think twice.

women can handle girlfriend. by try saying to a man that he is going out with his boyfriends... lol

ah ha

[Shandris]

154. You touch on the heart of perhaps one difference...

...particularly in your second part, about familiarity. The television producers WANT us to feel 'familiar' with these characters -- nothing spells the doom of a show faster than a bunch of characters no one relates with. And using the 'familiar' in the title, just like you might do to your wife, helps reinforce that image ever so slightly.

I strongly believe in gender equality in the workplace. I think a man directly and attributively speaking to a woman and calling her 'girl' IS a put-down that is based on perceived superiority. But it's not him implying that she's powerless -- it's him implying that he is ABOVE her. Why the subtle distinction? Because one doesn't leave reason for why this same imaginary man calls his black waiter 'boy', and the other does. It's not about who he's targetting, it's about HIM -- as you would expect with anyone who was enough of an asshole to treat others like that.

But conflating that with 'one of the girls', 'the good ole boys', or any of a dozen of Motley Crue's song titles is, imo, a waste of good resources. There are too many words that involve gender to lay down a categorical rule; who the speaker is, their intended target, familiarity, and even the age of the speaker and the person being spoken to that determine when such usage is proper, and when it is determined as an insult. Even my dentist calls the women who work in her office 'the girls up front', and she's still a student herself (University Dental School). I can't believe that she's trying to intentionally degrade them as a matter of course to every patient who walks in the door -- without them, she has no practice!

Of course, I was taught that any woman to her face is called 'Ma'am' or her name, and any man was called 'sir' or his name. Then when discussing in third party, I was taught in chronological order: girl, young woman, lady, woman, older woman and boy, young man, man, and then either elderly gentleman or old man (depending on his attitude). I've never run into anyone that had a problem with Ma'am or Sir. :)

[deaniac21]

45. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. The problem is there's no catchy, informal, and not derogatory word for women

If there's a degree of formality involved in a situation and or if the woman is significantly older than me (somewhere between 10 and 15 years older than me is the line), I refer to them as women. If they're closer to my age or I know them from a less formal situation, I refer to them as girls. I almost never use the terms "man" or "men" to refer to people I know, regardless of how I know them. I always use the term "guys".

The problem is that there isn't a completely non-derogatory female equivalent for "guys". Women is too formal. Ladies is too formal. "Chicks" is even more derogatory than "girls". "Dudettes" just sounds weird.

Thus, I think people have kind of accepted this and decided that referring to grown women as "girls" doesn't have to be demeaning.

[DrunkenBoat]

91. I agree. Though some women do find it so, I'm a woman & I don't think most

women do, depending on the situation/context. Obviously there are situations & contexts where it *is*.

But the meaning of human language isn't entirely contained in its vocabulary items, no matter how much some insist that it is.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pinboy3niner]

57. Or since Geri Halliwell left the Spice...oops! Never mind.

:)

[Liquorice]

54. I agree that it's sexist, but interestingly, many people hate to hear the

truth about sexism, and will argue that it's perfectly acceptable to have a bias against women, or that no bias even exists. Maybe it's because they enjoy being sexists and don't want to change...

[Blasphemer]

55. Language has power...

And language has definitely traditionally been a tool of oppression. "Guys" is used as slang for men but also to address gender-mixed groups in the same way that "men" or "man" can be used to refer to human beings in general. "Girls" or "Gals" is not used in the same way unless it is mocking the masculinity of a particular man or group of men. That said, "guys" is also used for little boys in the same way that "girls" is used for little girls. "Gals" is not popular slang for women in the same way that "guys" is for men. A show about men of the same age range would probably be called "2 Broke Guys" and the popular slang equivalent is "2 Broke Girls" and not "2 Broke Gals". I don't think that "2 Broke Girls" is the best example but since language is something that is continually evolving, it's important to examine how we use language, how it reflects the society that creates it and how language shapes culture.

[flvegan]

60. "2 Broke Chicks" then?

:hide:

j/k

[Jamastiene]

134. ...

:spank: :hi:

[HappyMe]

63. Good grief!

With all of the horrible problems in the world, and in this country - this is what you get upset about?

Neither the title nor the show offends me. I don't care if somebody calls me a girl, because that's what I am. Same with chick, lady, woman. People are so freaking hung up on labels.

I know who I am.

[Nikia]

66. I agree. In college, I made the switch to being referred to as woman

Now I feel insulted when I am called girl. It does connotate subservience and someone who isn't to be taken seriously.

[seabeyond]

68. we really dont have this struggle with boy/men, so i have to wonder about the resistents to consider

maybe grown woman ought to be called women and maybe there is something in calling grown women, .... girls. not like the end of the world like some posters are preceiving, that a woman dare bringing up the issue. but i dont see a reason to refuse to even consider calling women... women.

says a hell of a lot.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

71. It's also not the end of the world that a friggin' sitcom uses the word "girls"

It's obviously a catchier title. That's all. Not everything has some great nefarious evil behind it. Unless you created the show, or star in it, it's not referring to you, so why care? If someone calls you a girl, yell at them if you want. I never hear the term used outside of casual conversation anymore.

[seabeyond]

74. i hear it used often. and it is not only this title. as we see in this thread, it is more common

than not. which is the discussion.

i dont think it is the end of the world. in my post, i stated that i, too, was conditioned by society to use girl or lady, as if woman was an insult. when i recognized that not only did i do it, but everyone around me did it, i started making an effort to use woman instead. at first it was hard to change my language. now i love it.

my point is, i am more curious why we do this to women and acknowledging it and making an effort for change. i figure it is not so much nefarious for most, but just age is so sensitive to women (aging not allowed for women) so as a society we see woman as insulting. we need to get beyond that.

i also dont understand why so many have a tough time acknowledging that we would not and do not call grown men boys. that would be an insult to a man. we all know it. yet in this discussion we like to pretend otherwise.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

77. My mother will still say "Ready, boys?" to this day.....

.....to me and my brother or my father when we are leaving the house to go somewhere. It's a term of endearment, and it doesn't bother me at all. I had a girlfriend who to this day will enter the room with a bunch of guys in it and say "Hoooowwdy, boys". No one cared a bit.....it was her being playful.

This must be regional semantics, because I just don't get whose taking offense to the term "boys", nor would anyone I know care if it was used as a title for a show. To me, the portrayals of men on sitcoms as knuckle dragging cretins are gross enough without worrying about the titles.

[McCamy Taylor]

69. New York women I know object to being called "girls." However in Texas, men are boys and women are

girls, as in cowboys and cowgirls. Causes a bit of culture clash sometimes when folks think that a "girl" reference is being sexist.

[seabeyond]

70. living in texas, i have never known a man to allow his little BOY to be called a boy,

let alone a grown man being called a boy. lol. the men here wouldnt cotton to being called.... boy

disregarding the cowboy/cowgirl label.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

72. So no one ever says "Is that your boy there?" or "Is this your boy here"?

Because I see that on Hollywood TV shows all the time when it comes to the South. Funny.....considering we're talking about a Hollywood show using a term you don't care for, but no one really uses where I come from in the Northeast to refer to women. Food for thought.

[seabeyond]

75. probably, .... little man. young man. especially when one man is talking to another man.

i cannot tell you how often i would tell men... boy, when they addressed my very young boys as .... man.

i didnt and dont buy into this preconditioning our young boys as men before their time.

my boys are fine with it cause they get to define their own manhood, in our family, and it is not a social environment forcing it on them.

and the reality is, they do a much better job of it.

[Odin2005]

73. OFFS, based on that logic it's offensive for women to call us guys "the boys".

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

76. but then look what women are doing and men are accepting when women refer to them as boys

they have regressed them to... boys and anyway from men. that is when they use the term. so you kinda make the point.

[Odin2005]

79. No, it's an affectionate usage, there is no insult intended.

using "diminutive" forms for affectionate or informal usage is extremely common among languages. You are over-analyzing this.

[seabeyond]

80. of course it is an endearment but only when we are regressing the boys... but

when talking about the girl at the front desk (50 yr old woman) then it is not an endearment. it is reducing her in years and experience and not allowing her to be a adult.

it isnt hard. it is not the end of the word. we are conditioned in doing this with women. we say girl or lady. we dont use women. why? because it is seen as saying they are old and what an insult that is. (that is my guess. i have asked people why they think we do it, and people really dont want to explore. i do) but it really is not an insult for a woman to be an adult. without confining her to constructed behaviors by saying... lady. watch yourself. i have heard it from you. when you talk about woman, you use lady.

not a BIG deal. but a deal.

[caraher]

78. I think there's a generational shift at work here

When I went to college in the early '80s, the young women I know were very conscious of not wanting to be referred to as "girls" for many of the reasons articulated in this thread. Now that I'm teaching college, it seems almost the opposite - that there's almost an insistence on being referred to as "girls" among young women, especially the ones aged 22 and under I see in my classes.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

82. I hate when real issues are conflated with meaningless semantics.

Yes, inequality between men and women is a major issue, but to shoehorn that argument onto the title of a sitcom is silly.

"Girls" is the more common descriptor of females of a certain age group, which includes the two main characters referenced in the title. If the show was about two middle-aged women and retained the same title, then I would see the infantilization aspect at play.

And for the record, "boys" is also used. Ever see the show "My Boys"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Boys

Or seen the movies "The Lost Boys" or "Boyz in the Hood"?

[Capitalocracy]

83. I think it's not that they're demeaning women

but that women sounds too formal. If it was about males, it would be called two broke guys. Gals sounds a bit off, though, and given other options (dudettes? chicks? ladies, maybe?) girls doesn't sound so bad to me. I respect your concern but I think you're grasping at straws on this one.

[DrunkenBoat]

84. I think the useage pairs are:

boys & girls for children

guys & girls for teens to college-age or alternatively men & women

men & women for ~30+

I just think that's actual usage.

And I'm not one of those people who think these kind of terms necessarily reflect how people treat each other in practice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. And while we're on the topic, what's up with WIC?

pick one:
a) women are like infants and children
b) everyone deserves to eat, except males over 18.

[Gormy Cuss]

152. You know the answer to that.

Only pregnant and lactating women are eligible under WIC because of the connection to infant and child nutrition. All other women, like males,don't qualify.

[seabeyond]

153. i thought so, ... nt

[WildEyedLiberal]

90. "2 Broke Female-Gendered Human Beings"

Yeah, um... let's not.

[Bucky]

121. Two Female-Gendered Human Beings Who Just Happen to Be Financially Disadvantaged"

I'd watch.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Here's an idea for a show: "Sociological hand-wringing with the people who have nothing

better to do, who also don't know how to change the channel from stuff that bothers them"


It could be endlessly exciting and quite messy, like the front row at a Gallagher show.

[pinboy3niner]

110. The channel will change when you pry the remote from my cold, dead hands!1!!

We members of the Right to Bear Infrared Remotes Koalition--I'm in the Education Division (R2B-IRKED)--have a POV, too! I can watch stuff that bothers me if I wanna!1!!

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

114. You miss the point on this post too. (but you are batting 1000)

The Author adds:

Words can convey important meanings. And as long as adult women are called and seen as “girls,” they will face discrimination in the workplace.

This is shown clearly in their making 77 cents for every dollar a man makes for the same job and in their lack of promotions in giant firms. Women aren’t taken seriously, the recent Wal-Mart mass class action case being a prime example. The U.S. Supreme Court sided with Wal-Mart on the technicality that these thousands of women somehow didn’t qualify as a class action. But the female Supreme Court Justices as a minority sided with the women, who for many years had been denied equal pay and equal promotion opportunities.

If we as a society want to end this discrimination against women, it must start with recognizing that like men, women become adults and are entitled to be termed “women” as men are termed “men”.

[Bucky]

124. It's inherently sexist when people say "Boy howdy! That was a close call" but never "Girl howdy!"

And you're one smart boy for pointing that out to us.

[Warren DeMontague]

131. Perhaps if I can locate where "we as a society" is on a map, I can send "we as a society" a letter

informing "we as a society" that there is absolutely no more pressing matter vis a vis gender pay fairness than the titles of a couple prime time television shows.

While I'm at it, though, I'd like to figure out where "the baby boom generation" is on a map, so I can send "the baby boom generation" instructions on how to change the channel on their tvs, so they can stop with the endless stream of outrage and moral panic over other peoples' entertainment choices.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

142. RE: titles of a couple prime time television shows.

That is only cited as an example. The OP was about gender labels.

And very cleaver the "we as a society" bit. Kudos!

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Supply Side Jesus]

115. Other sexist titles include

Bad Boys
Bad Boys 2
The Sunshine Boys
Boyz In The Hood
Boys Don't Cry
Boy Meets World
Oldboy
Boys and Girls
Boys on the Side
The Boys from Brazil
The Boys are Back
The Boys and Girls Guide to Getting Down
Astro-Boy
Hellboy
Trailer Park Boys
The Lost Boys
Wild Boys
Grandma's Boy
Gossip Girl
The New Girl
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
A Boy
About a Boy
blah blah blah blah

[Shandris]

118. Well to be fair...

...would YOU have gone to watch 'Demolition Boy' with Sylvester Stallone? :silly:

[ceile]

116. Geez.

Someone has way too much time on their hands.
And by the way, the brunette "girl" is a riot.

[Bucky]

120. Shorter version: Because women earn less than men, it's demeaning to have about women who earn less

than men.

[DainBramaged]

122. Another addition to the DU angst list

Olive Garden, AppleBees, Cigarettes, breastfeeding, circumcision, narwhals, pit bulls, smoking bans,

Elliot Spritzer, High school bands, soda pop and food stamps, kids on planes drinking caffeine, bombing the moon, tax fast food, Rapture,


PETA, Vaccinations, orange juice, Jessie James, Ipads, Michael Vicks, Octomom, unicorns and Charlie Sheen,

we didn't hate the Weiner, 2 Broke Girls are the new screaming kids in restaurants, we didn't hate the Weiner.......

[Jamastiene]

133. How the fuck did you manage to miss fried chicken?

:rofl:

[DainBramaged]

155. I missed the fried chicken fight? When was that?????

My life is over I missed the fried chicken fight (if it eats dirt I don't eat it).

[Jamastiene]

156. I can't believe you missed it.

It started here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x961628#961780


Skinner had to finally come in (in the middle of the night at that point) and calm things down.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3499154

[DainBramaged]

157. Ahh that's a skirmish, that's not a Brest-feeding chain smoking narwhal loving Olive Garden fight

:rofl:

[Erose999]

123. At least the title of the show isn't "2 broke girls 1 cup".

[Rebubula]

127. damn...

...you had to go there.

Now I need some mind bleach....

[Romulox]

126. For real guys! This is *SERIES*!

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

139. Wow @ the "2 Broke Boys" analogy.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Abin Sur]

141. Good grief. Of all the things to get upset about, you pick this?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

143. Wait until the author finds out the term "that's the sound of my vagina drying up"....

....was used on the show.

A dry vagina joke. On CBS. Yup.

[Abin Sur]

150. Well, network television is *far* raunchier than it was even 10 years ago.

Heck, even comic strips...

[undeterred]

144. And where women earn as much as men or more,

there are always male co-workers ready to stab them in the back. Speaking from experience on this one.

[Hoosier Daddy]

145. Indeed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2026417

[Exultant Democracy]

146. I think you are wrong, this is a direct response to the man-cession. Women already won the future,

and deep down inside men know or at least the men young enough to be on the writing staff for this show know.

This show 2 broke girls is just like pan am and the playboy club, men fantasizing about a world where men are still ascendant.

The future isn't written by comedy writers, it is written in the high school, college and post grad graduation levels.

Yes of course it is true the right now women still make cents on the dollar to what men make, but that is because people tend to make the most toward the end of their employment curve so wages will be a lagging indicator to the societal change that most definitely happened.

A person concerned with the future of women might want to spend some time pondering the effect that a having a large number of unemployable young men has on the welfare of women. Or just ask a black woman.

[seabeyond]

148. so, women dont make as much money and degraded, objectified, inferior

in the media, should feel sorry for the men? there is that argument, i guess.

wow.

[Exultant Democracy]

151. Only if you twist my words into something totaly unlike what I said. The OP said the show set back

women, I think that the majority of the evidence paints the opposite picture. If you can point out where I said women should feel bad for men? I'm pretty sure I just pointed out that while woman of a certain age most certainly are members of a group who have gotten the shit end of the stick historically that unlike the older women the younger women already won the future.

Do you refute the high school, college and post grad graduation rates?

Do you refute that these graduation rates will have a dramatic effect on the wages of women vs men (clue each college grad makes 1 million more over their lifetime so if you do refute this you are wrong)

If you don't refute those FACTS then you have to accept that wages are a lagging indicator.

Obviously my first post was far to complicate for you to follow so after you have accepted that the college graduation rates are real and that college grad rates will in turn effect the wages of these young women then I can walk you through the second part.

[johnaries]

147. Oh, Puh-leeze! There are so many more important issues to

focus on. This is hurting the cause. Focus!

[distantearlywarning]

158. I am in my late 30s, husband is in his early 40s

We call one another "Girl" and "Boy". We even refer to one another that way in front of other people. We will probably do that when I am in my late 80s and he is in his early 90s. I don't find it demeaning or distressing. It wouldn't bother me if someone else called me "girl" either. I feel like a girl in my heart - a girl trapped in a middle-aged woman's body. Although we are both well-educated, responsible, and have all of the outward trappings of adult success, we have no kids (and no plans for any), and many elements of our DINK lifestyle outside of the workplace are basically "adolescence with money" (and we are both quite happy about that and fully intend to be that way until we die of old age). Calling me "girl" is, in a way, an accurate description of who I really am as a person.

Also, I have noticed MANY more advertisements and shows in the last half-decade which are exactly the opposite of the hypothesis discussed in the OP: a strong, good-looking female lead who has to take care of an overgrown male child who physically appears to be middle-aged but is incapable of completing even the most simple of tasks, such as cleaning up messes with paper towels.

What I would really like to see is less media in general which makes an overly big deal of any kind of difference between men and women and stereotypes it. That's not really an accurate description of how most modern men and women relate to one another, and it just drags sexism along like a dirty old worn-out blanket behind those of us who are in relationships with interesting, complex human beings who each have their own good points and their flaws (not merely "men" or "women").