And once every child in America gets a college education, what then?

[kentuck]

"We have to educate our children if we want to compete in the global economy", we are told.

If everyone had a college education, what would it be worth?

And if education is the key to keeping our economy strong, where will these educated people be working and what will they be doing?

I'm certain education is a good thing but education on how to be a good corporate citizen is not necessarily the solution to our problems. Just my opinion.

[NNN0LHI]

1. Takes two years of college to get the same job I was doing while I was still in high school

I think it is a scam kentuck.

Don

[monmouth]

36. Just saw a sign in the window of our local linen store. Admin. Asst.

four year degree required. Wow...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. See my post below

That could be a subtle form of discrimination.

[monmouth]

64. Just read your great post and think you are right. n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. At least we'll be able to all discuss Baudelier while waiting in the unemployment line n/t

[icymist]

79. Community College is nothing but a job vocation degree.

If you fail at that job you were training for, then you have to start all over. Does that sound like education to you?

[LWolf]

2. Then, after investing those huge sums, and going into debt,

the college education is not worth the paper it's printed on.

[hobbit709]

3. Then your job will involve "You want fries with that?" but you'll have a degree.

[Zoeisright]

4. It teaches you how to THINK.

Something that is sorely needed in this country.

[hobbit709]

5. don't bet on that

There are way too many degrees available today that involve no thinking at all.
You can get a BA with no science, math or language requirements worth talking about.

[david_vincent]

47. You have a good point, but you express it badly

I didn't do any science or math, and took a language for awhile only out of personal interest. It is NOT necessary to know any science or math in order to learn how to think. I did, though, take logic. Also, I had to write and defend a thesis in order to graduate; in my case, this happened to be a 160-page thesis that involved concepts expressed in Attic Greek and represents a genuine contribution to the world's knowledge -- which is what a thesis is supposed to be. The idea that only science, math,languages, etc. involve real thinking is wrong and should be shelved permanently.

There are several problems in higher education. One of the main ones, and the one that's the primary subject of this thread, is grade inflation. I have personally known someone who had a bachelor's degree from Fresno State who was semi-literate and could NOT write coherently. Fresno State bears responsibility for awarding her a degree she didn't deserve. At the same time, thousands of colleges and universities also bear responsibility for continuing to pass students who don't deserve to be passed. There are two main drivers of this problem, as I see it. First, institutions want the tuition dollars to keep rolling in. Flunking students and sending them away means no more money coming in from them. Second, and hugely overlooked, is the fact that many if not most Americans want to get a degree without earning it. They want to get it tomorrow and they want it to cost $100. Their unreasonable demands are very important causal factors in the state of higher education today. At the college where I work, we had a master's level student who turned in 20 pages FOR THE WHOLE SEMESTER and then bitched up a storm when he was told it wasn't sufficient, even going to the Board of Trustees and raising a stink. That's what people are like, and those idiots are the ones driving a lot of the national shame of grade inflation. Not to even mention the rampant cheating. Anyone care to talk about the fact that thousands upon thousands of young people think it's perfectly OK to cheat their way through???
We have a nation of people who are intellectually lazy but expect to reap the benefits of effort that they themselves refuse to extend.

[XemaSab]

54. Well put

A proper humanities degree should involve as much hard work as a science degree. My mom went to Fresno State for English back in the day, and had Phil Levine as a teacher. She said that program kicked her ass. (Like, one time she missed a class, and it turned out that the professor had assigned a paper on the Robert Frost poem "Design" that was due that day. She didn't have the paper, so he assigned her "The Emperor of Ice Cream" for the NEXT class. I don't think this would happen today.)

The problem is how do you get students who have never had an original thought in their lives to suddenly start thinking when they get to college?

I think you don't.

Academic standards need to be ratcheted up from about 5th grade onward. Maybe if this happened to a sufficient degree, high school could be a proper qualification for a job again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. As a veteran of college teaching, I can tell you that as of 1993, the last year I was involved,

most students majored in business, which was really vocational training, not an intellectual endeavor, and they tended to avoid any subjects that required critical thinking beyond business department case studies.

[formercia]

17. Think of which Fraternity to join, the ones with the best cheat sheets

I only survived a Year as a Graduate Teaching Assistant because I came down hard on the frat rats. Even the grammatical errors in their answers were the same. They were obviously copying them verbatim. It turns out, they complained to their Daddies, who were big Money Boosters, so I was thrown under the Bus.

Cacademia is fucked beyond redemption as far as I'm concerned.

[Odin2005]

30. "Cacademia" ROFL, you owe me a new keyboard!

:rofl:

I agree with you though. I doubt there has ever been a rich kid without a college degree, even the stupidest, like Dubya, get the Gentleman's C.

[AngryAmish]

33. YOu can't teach someone with a 90 IQ to THINK

Or at least do it in a meaningful manner. There are limits to everyone's potential. If you can't do college work then college just pisses you off and wastes your money. And time.

A person with a 90 IQ could do some meaningful work. Give them a skill (nursing asst, welding, something). Then we will be doing a good job of educating the populace.

[XemaSab]

55. Hey, I don't want someone with a 90 IQ

handing out meds. :o

Or putting a bridge together, for that matter. :o

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. Better to give the 90 iq individual a job without any tangible risks, like shuffling paper. n/t

[surrealAmerican]

68. A 90 IQ is only slightly less than average.

Just how high do you think a person's IQ needs to be to be capable of thinking? Are you trying to imply that only above-average people are able to think, regardless of education?

[Lyric]

44. Which is great...if you have the privilege of time, aptitude, and money for college.

What about the people who don't have those privileges?

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. The fact that this is a widespread argument, is itself a strong argument for the opposite.

College doesn't tell you how to think, it tells you what to think; e.g. "only college graduates can think".

A really brilliant form of affinity marketing, btw.

You want to learn how to think? Pick up a saw, a wrench or a soldering iron.

[icymist]

80. Right! It made me learn to teach myself!

College these days is nothing but vocational training. Think about it, at least that's what you were taught.

[get the red out]

6. Bait and switch

I agree that education is wonderful and should be MUCH more affordable; but once everyone has a BA will it then take an MA to be the head cashier at the grocery store? It's a bait and switch IMO. So many jobs have gone overseas that I guess it sounds better for politicians and others to say "if you had an education you could get a job" even though it isn't true now. No one will face the truth that we chose slave labor and Walmart over preserving the American middle class. And since fewer and fewer people can even afford to go to college now, they will continue to use that lie "if you had an education......."

[iemitsu]

26. yep, classic american

blame the victim for his/her own victimization, especially if one is poor.
remember, if anything goes wrong it is because you either made bad choices or are lazy.

[gordianot]

7. They become 99% ers and join the Wall Street protest.

Although I am retired own a farm outright and have a garunteed income for life I will join her if need be.

[mainer]

8. I wish more would go into the trades like plumbing

my local plumber and electrician can't hire enough people to keep up with demand. They're overworked, overwhelmed, and looking for workers.

And oh yeah -- they make about $50 an hour.

If I could give advice to an 18-year-old, I'd tell him that for job security, he should go to trade school.

[hobbit709]

10. Donna and I used to joke about that.

All our friends' kids were going to college and we said what we need is someone we know that's a good mechanic, plumber etc.
Funny how some things come true.

[raccoon]

14. I think in the USA there is the idea that learning a skill such as plumbing or becoming an

electrician isn't "as good as" going to college for 4 years, even if you end up at the
end of those 4 years with a McJob.

[get the red out]

48. Exactly, it's some kind of "status" thing

It's the old blue collar vs white collar. There is an assumption that someone who learns a "trade" as opposed to going to a 4 year college did so because he/she was not smart enough or not from a good enough family. I have watched attitudes through the years and as more and more jobs that created things were lost, more of a stigma was placed on people who did those jobs. There was a real respect for people who had trades or made things when I was a kid, at least in the community I grew up in. That vanished over the years.

[Yo_Mama]

16. This is why democracy works

The commenters on this site are picking up an economic gap that all the highly credentialed economists are missing.

I wrote another post explaining what I thought in detail, but I am charmed and reassured by all the comments in response to the OP. The average person in the economy really does know more about what is going on than the people at the top.

[exboyfil]

27. Of course more plumbers would force that wage down

but I still strongly recommend skilled trades over getting a worthless degree. My daughter who is very good in math and science (A student and a year ahead in both subjects) also loves journalism. I have told her to get an engineering or science degree and use your journalism skills/presentation skills in that occupation to craft your own job. You are looking at doubling your income and greatly increasing your likelihood of getting a job coming out of college.

4 year degrees to pursue:

Engineering
Nursing
Accounting
Others?

[woodsprite]

41. My daughter wanted Art (not much earning power there)

We hit on a compromise - she's trying Art/Material Culture Conservation. She'll have 4 yrs of advanced chemistry, she's continuing with math (stats - although it's not required) and history, Russian (and will be adding in Italian), plus she gets some of the art classes she was dying to take at the college level. Internships are required, so she'll actually come out of college with appropriate work experience.

She was honors all through high school and completed 7 AP classes (6 which she tested high enough to count for college credit) and her best subjects were Chemistry and Math. I'm glad she's at least trying a major that should produce something marketable on her resume, or at least give her enough variation to switch if she finds she really doesn't like what she ends up doing.

[spin]

34. You can't outsource a plumber or electrician's job to India. (n/t)

[Bosso 63]

35. Trades are not valued, labor is not valued

People think they NEED a lot of stuff, but when the sewage line backs up, they realize a functioning toilet is real need.


And oh yea, these jobs can't be out sourced to China.

[xmas74]

49. Looking back

I wish I had gone into HVAC. I wouldn't be where I'm at now if I had a skill.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. I strongly recommend the book "shop class as soulcraft". n/t

[Fumesucker]

75. The construction trades where I live are all hurting badly..

The huge slump in residential and commercial construction has led to a great many workers in the skilled trades being without a job, from top to bottom from the roofers to the plumbers.

[mainer]

76. But plumbers and electricians still work, even without construction

Homes need maintenance forever. My plumber seems to be here at our house just about every other week -- when he can find the time to squeeze us in between the dozens of other calls he's running off to.

[Fumesucker]

78. Repairing/renovation is not the same as new construction.

Very often it's not even the same workers doing the two jobs, repairing/renovation is a specialized skill that requires more experience and usually a lot more tools. New construction is relatively straightforward, renovation and repairs are often anything but straightforward.

On new construction plumbers and electricians are among the first of the building trades on the job and are among the last to leave the job.

Just because you are aware of one plumber staying very busy does not imply that all plumbers are equally busy.

[seabeyond]

9. so true, so true, ... as i look toward college tuition in a couple years and the job market

for my kids

[michreject]

11. Maybe they'll finally get your order right at Taco Bell. nt

[HughBeaumont]

12. A can of Pepsi. With 75 cents, of course.

Without a feasible job market or substantial wages, all we're going to have is a glut of over-educated and vastly un/underemployed citizens.

Unfettered capitalism has to die and cooperative Democratic socialism has to take it's place. There's so much work to be done in this country, yet ever-dwindling public wealth to make it happen, since all the public wealth is being wasted on the coffers of the wealthy or pissed away in the Middle East.

[Yo_Mama]

13. It also denigrates other types of education

IMO, our focus on old-fashioned university types of educations is obscuring the very high demand for skilled tech and craft labor. It also has an element of "class" to it - there are stupid prejudices and stereotypes that dominate our education system.

For example, a skilled electrician or plumber or mechanic can do very well, and such types of jobs are very economically important.

Another problem we have is that we have apparently subliminally adopted the idea that only persons with a lot of academic credentials deserve to be paid well, and that is rather idiotic. The reality is that the majority of the jobs in any economy are involved with keeping all the parts and infrastructure of the economy running, the more efficiently the better. A skilled grocery store manager or assistant manager who reduces waste and handles inventory well probably delivers more economic value (calculated in terms of lower grocery costs for consumers) than the average college professor over his or her lifetime.

We have a bunch of college professors trying to run an economy they don't understand, and this is an integral part of our economic woes.

We are going to slowly reindustrialize, and to do that we need the people who keep things running, quite literally.

[barbtries]

15. well, the ideal of course

is that the educated young person will now be equipped to excel at something he or she will love to do and make a good living while at it. just because the PTB have co-opted it is not a reason to diss education imo. in this country we definitely do need more and not less of it.
lots of problems need lots of solutions. we need educated, imaginative, spirited people for our future, their future, their children's and grandchildren's futures, on and on.

looking at dumbed down america as it is, yes "We have to educate our children if we want to compete in the global economy," and also if we want to grow at home.

[H2O Man]

18. That's easy enough .....

then everyone would owe the banks a college loan, and be further in debt. Those in debt are forced to take two or more shit jobs. Competition at its finest.

[Odin2005]

19. A Bachelor's Degree has become what a high school diploma was 60 years ago.

[H2O Man]

21. True.

Good point.

[Fla Dem]

31. But a high school degree didn't leave you or your parents

in debt for the next 20 years.

[Odin2005]

37. True.

[IndyPragmatist]

20. Then a degree will be worth next to nothing

We are already seeing that. A bachelors degree is a requirement for even the most basic jobs. When I graduated, I was amazed at some of the jobs that said they required a college education. These were jobs that I could have easily done in high school and did not require any special education, but because there are so few jobs and so many graduates, they can require a college degree to try to ensure they get a quality employee. However, that's not really that safe of a gamble. I constantly meet people and I am amazed that they have a college education. I remember during my graduation ceremony seeing people that I thought would flunk out there first semester.

Far too many schools, my alma matter included (Indiana), are operating like a business. IU is growing every year and increasing tuition at an even greater rate. They also will do everything they can to keep students in school. This sounds nice on the surface, but it's really just keeping kids paying money to the school when they should have failed out long ago. IU wants to be Ohio State. They want a huge alumni base that will provide the funding for a massive athletic program and the biggest shiniest buildings money can buy. I'm not kidding, IU allows students to stay on academic probation for 4 semesters before failing them out. If you kick a kid out of school, he isn't going to pay tuition. So just keep stringing him along and let him graduate. Maybe he will get lucky and win the lottery and donate a bunch of money to the school. Unlikely, but hey, it's all about being the big school.

Twenty years ago, and Indiana University education was considered extremely valuable. Even 10 years ago, IU was considered "public ivy." That is no longer the case. Far too many uneducated people have IU degrees now. It's really sad.

[exboyfil]

32. I wonder about the smaller midwest state schools

The admission requirements to our three state universities in Iowa are laughably low when compared states like California (UC and even the CSU systems), Virginia (William and Mary, UVa, VaTech), and Georgia (GeoTech and UnGeo). I don't know if it is still the case at Purdue in Engineering. but when I started in 1981 most of my classmates were in the top five in their High School graduating class. I was blown away since I was no where near that high (I think being from a Mississippi High School might have helped and my completely undeserved/miracle 31 on the ACT). I probably had no business being with these high flyers even though I did get my degree in 3 1/2 years with a B average.

University of Iowa recruits heavily into Illinois trying to position itself as an alternative to Un. of Illinois for those who do not make it into that school.

On the flip side getting one of the highest level merit scholarships to the Iowa public universities is virtually impossible. My bosses daughter was a 4.0 with several AP classes, a 35 on the ACT, state level piano, and she got only the second level scholarship going into engineering. When I heard that story, I knew my decision to invest in a 529 for the kids was a wise one. They will not get much in the way of merit money.

[piratefish08]

22. we will be known the world over for our SUPER-INTELLIGENT unemployment lines........

[piratefish08]

23. master's degree's are near worthless today with no fucking jobs............

[TheManInTheMac]

24. That is not possible.

My first time in the dorms at OSU drove this home to me very early: Many, many people simply are not college material. Even to get to the point where everyone with average and above intelligence had access to a free college education, you would have to dumb down the requirements for a bachelor's degree so much it wouldn't mean any more than a high school diploma.

One of the most dangerous associations society makes is that education = intellegence. In fact, there's very little correlation between the two.

[The2ndWheel]

25. Then it will be something else that one needs to get

Progress has no finish line, no destination, so we just keep chasing the phantom.

[Javaman]

28. Look at it this way...

you won't be a corporate citizen, you will be an indebted slave.

[KurtNYC]

29. then we will have doctors, teachers, architects, engineers, public health

administrators, electricians, nurses, lab techs, software engineers, analysts, poets, writers, journalists and mental health professionals for the future.

[malthaussen]

39. We are Seriously Snobbish

It's amazing how in my lifetime attitudes in the US have become so anti-labor. Even when I was in high school 40 years ago, the kids in the "Vocational" school (i.e., those who were actually training to do a JOB) were sneered at and looked down on. You just were not, somehow, a worthy person unless you were in the "college prep" classes.

The flip side of this tendency can be seen in plumbers, carpenters, and other tradesmen calling themselves "professionals" because that sounds so much more high-falutin' than "craftsman."

I'm all for making college available to those who can do the work. But we need to realize that not everyone can do the work. We can lower standards as much as we please -- and have -- but there are still going to be people who can't hack it. In the publicly-funded university with which I was associated, all the undergraduate courses were marked on a curve, and around half of the class would not have been able to pass otherwise. I've always thought marking on a curve made no sense, unless the purpose of the class was not to teach the subject, but to punch the student's ticket. Later on as a teaching assistant I went so far as to fail about one student in six because their work demonstrated NO grasp of the subject, and was told I shouldn't do that. Of course this is anecdotal "evidence," so feel free to disregard it as you will.

But what can you expect from an education system where institutions of higher learning are supposed to be "knowledge factories?"

-- Mal

[KurtNYC]

45. i think vocational schools are looking pretty good these days

because they train for jobs that CAN'T be exported -- auto mechanic, electrician, etc.

[iemitsu]

38. i subscribe to the notion that knowledge is power

and that all individuals ought to collect as much of it as possible but the cost of a university education is clearly designed to limit access to the system.
even when there, the thrust is to limit access. american universities now charge more if one takes anything beyond the minimum requirements for a degree. they promote the idea that one must specialize (compartmentalize) their skills which limits one's ability to process information across disciplines.
i think that kids, and everyone, should spend more time with a book in their hands. everyone needs to educate themselves.

[katsy]

40. Educating kids to be good corporate worker bees will

further strain our natural resources and contribute nothing socially.

Educate our children, teach them to think and unleash their creative energy and we may reach the stars.

But in order to explore space, we need great leaders and common purpose.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with corruption in our government and I see no one thinking about great matters to give us a common purpose.

[treestar]

42. It's part of the good life

Having an appreciation for literature and art, etc.

College is not job training school except for certain degrees, like RN. Go to trade school or directly to work if an education is of no value. Of course, that is more likely to make a good "corporate citizen" than one who has had exposure to ideas in the university.

[Lyric]

43. We need jobs that can support a decent living WITHOUT a college degree.

Otherwise we're just condemning every person who can't go to college (and their innocent kids) to a life of poverty, crime, and suffering.

[LanternWaste]

46. I think one of the strongest programs

I think one of the strongest programs in both the German states and Great Britain as the second half of the 18th century waned, was their governments insistence on investing into the education and training of chemical, physical and theoretical engineers, which eventually resulted in Great Britain and Germany having an overwhelming advantage in this area for almost fifty years. It seems to me that if there is a national will to educate, it can happen-- and result in very positive benefits for both the individual and the collective culture.

However, I certainly do not perceive an advanced education as any form of indoctrination into a corporate culture or reducing a person into the oft-cited demographic we entertain ourselves with by minimizing them into 'citizen-sheep', or some other self-validating label.

[Cal33]

50. In order to get every child in America a college education, the college standards would have to be

lowered considerably -- we'd have to rubber-stamp pass every student for
simply having been physically in class.

Let's take the tougher college courses, like math and all the sciences
based on math: physics, engineering, chemistry... The average student
cannot pass the exams. One has to be considerably above average.
That's the way nature made us. Some are less intelligent, some
average, some above average.

We can improve the quality of our schools without having to send
everyone through college.

Not everybody is intended to be or even wants to be an academic. Germany
has an excellent system. After 7 years of schooling, those who are
not doing too well academically can go to trade schools. Most of the
trade schools are for 3 years: auto-mechanic, hair-dressing, stenography,
... you name it. And when they graduate, these young people really do
know their trade. And their jobs pay adequately.

[XemaSab]

59. I don't agree that the average student can't pass the exams

The problem is that there's a myth in this country that smart people can understand advanced concepts like organic chemistry without effort.

In reality, the "smart" kids are probably putting in an hour or more of work on the topic every night.

The average student could pass the exams if he or she put in that hour of work, but the average student is out partying and isn't putting in the work at all. Hence, the idea that the average student can't pass math or science.

[Cal33]

83. The average student will not be able to graduate college with degrees in the subjects I

mentioned above, no matter how hard they study: Math, physics, chemistry, engineerying.
One has to have far better than average intelligence to earn degrees in these fields.

[hack89]

51. We will have college educated bus drivers and janitors. nt

[FarCenter]

52. A college degree doesn't matter -- the college, major, GPA, faculty recommendations, work record do

The bare fact of having a BA or BS is pretty much meaningless these days. The quality of the school, the quality of the program, they match between the program and the job, and the performance of the student academically and in part-time work or internships matter a lot more.

Also, things like certifications and licenses that validate specific job-related skills and formal government permissions to perform specific occupations.

Whether IT certs from MS or Cisco, passing the bar, medical license, plumbing license, etc.

[Liberal_in_LA]

53. once everyone had a degree, the credential needed for a 'good job' increases to an MA

Then a PHD and so on. unfortunately.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Everyone behaves as if they wish to be an english professor.

So HR raises the required qualifications to the level of individual applicant with the highest education.

Because risk-averse HR professionals don't want to think any harder than any other college graduate. They simply look for the good housekeeping seal of approval.

[Liberal_in_LA]

69. exactly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. College isn't for everyone, and educational requirements can be artificial barriers

Universal college will have one of two (possibly both) results:

1. College will be watered down so much that it will be like high school is today, otherwise probably 1/2 the students would never make it through.

2. The powers-that-be will raise the requirements for high-prestige jobs to an M.A. or Ph.D.

Sometimes it's pretty blatant.

Back in the 1950s, my mother was reading the want-ads just out of idle curiosity, and she saw that the electric company in our mid-sized town was hiring meter readers. The educational requirement was two years of college.

A neighbor of ours worked for the electric company, and he told her frankly that "educational requirement" wasn't real; it was just a way of signalling that this was a whites only job.

Personally, I think FEWER people should go to college. Only people with real academic interests should go to college, no matter what their economic level. Others should get vocational training, and this includes the pampered affluent kids who never read anything but the sports pages if they can help it.

[Taitertots]

65. Maybe an educated population would demand that they receive the productive gains for their labor

There is more than enough productive capacity to significantly increase the living standards of the 99%'ers.

[Romulox]

67. Logic problem: right now, the population has more education than ever before, and yet...

inequality is near an historic all time high. :hi:

[Taitertots]

72. There is also inequality in education....

While many people are more educated than in the past, there remain millions of people who are not.

[Romulox]

66. Then, the Federal Government imports millions of people willing to work cheaper than you.

:shrug:

[lunatica]

71. Many of them would have the tools to create jobs and invent things and

Even be entrepeneurs if they had an education. There is a huge brain drain in poverty. Or do you think poor people aren't as smart as people who can afford an education?

[Dragonbreathp9d]

73. They will work service industry, like me

[eridani]

74. Then we all live in Lake Wobegon--

--where all the children are above average.

[wellst0nev0ter]

77. That's Easy, We'll Just Build Super Colleges

to, you know, separate the wheat from the chaff.

And yes, I know they are called "grad school" but now they seem to becoming redundant as well.

[WinkyDink]

81. More blather.

[quaker bill]

82. Education is not the problem

so "fixing it" will not be the cure. The countries taking our lunch money are not on the large better educated, perhaps marginally so in some cases, but the difference is not as large as you are led to believe. In the few places where folks are somewhat better educated, education is far more affordable or free, and more importantly, the society is structured to largely eliminate child poverty. The other places beating us are countries where the mass of people work cheap and live poor.

Education is important, but will never solve this problem. It is important to remember that the top 10 percent of the most gifted students in India and China is a larger group of people than the entire US population.

[TBF]

84. We are going to have a lot of over-educated Walmart greeters. nt