Could Teabaggers be deliberately leading Occupy WS astray?. Blocking the Bklyn Bridge

[Cal33]

does no good for Occupy WS, but it creates a huge annoyance for New Yorkers
trying to get somewhere. We have to watch out for those GOPers. When you
see a few people doing something that will only make the goals of Occupy
Wall Street look bad -- think twice about following them, or not!
Don't simply follow blindly.

It could be the GOP's way of fighting back.

(Just trying to be of help).

[NNN0LHI]

1. More likely undercover police officers

[Cal33]

4. Yes, that could happen also. The Occupiers could stick closely to the

plans they have already made out earlier, and if there should be any changes made
when they are already at their destination of activity, the changes should be
made only by a few members recognized by the group, and agreed to beforehand.
Specifically, don't follow someone you don't even know!!

[loyalsister]

32. Good advice

Any protest needs to have organized planning that avoids situations that could be dangerous. Assuming part of the idea is to garner public support.

[Puregonzo1188]

40. It's worth noting that I know 19 people who were arrested and many of them had no idea what was

going. They simply followed the march onto the bridge where the NYPD guided it. They weren't even thinking about pedestrian walkway v. blocking traffic. Given that bit of information I think it's highly likely the original protestors to jump into the street could have been cops.

[TheWraith]

33. Every time one of these protests goes awry, there's always someone else to blame.

Undercover police officer, disruptors, the CIA, what have you. :eyes:

[Cal33]

42. And probably every time there is some truth to it.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

44. or just people who when told by the police they could not use the road

was all the more decided to use the road exactly because they had been told not to by the Police.

the 'Take the bridge' chant seems to point toward wanting to defy a sensible order/request by the police

[bighughdiehl]

2. I was wondering....

what the right-wingers had up their sleeve.
I know they will not quietly relinquish
their near total control.

[Cal33]

43. Their MSM saying nothing at all the first week didn't help them. Almost everybody

knows about OWS now, and I suppose this doesn't make the Corporatists
feel too comfortable. They must be preparing for the long pull ahead.
They can't help but realize that this movement isn't going to be
stopped easily. It has spread even to cities in the Deep South like
Atlanta, Miami, Houston...etc...

[PETRUS]

3. Infiltration

is almost certain.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Unless there is one unifying leader whom has made the decisions

throughout the occupation, anything's possible. Notwithstanding the idealistic bent, it's still a mob and herd mentality. The other extreme is anarchy with nobody following anybody.

[Cal33]

7. From what I've read, the Occupy WS is a well-organized and well-disciplined

group. Well, when there is infiltration, that makes the group's work that
much harder. They'll have to come up with various coping methods, depending
upon what comes up. Mistakes will be made, But nothing worthwhile has ever
been accomplished without hard and sustained effort! When you fall, pick
yourself up, and keep on the work with vigilance.

[Cal33]

12. There should be one unifying leader plus several other recognized co-leaders, so

that if one cannot show up, or is arrested, the next, and the next can
take over. And these leaders should be able to communicate with one
another while the action is going on.

[librechik]

36. that would belie their platform of being leaderless--they don't like leaders

and watch the parking meters

"Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. "

https://occupywallst.org/

[Cal33]

38. Not even like having rules for their own protection - like, no violence; don't

return the insults of any cop, no matter what he says, which place do we agree on
to meet tomorrow and at what time, how many people are willing to stay late today,
if somebody gets sick or is hurt, who can take him to a hospital, and which hospital?
...

And who's taking care of the food and money for food that's being donated...etc...
There's got to be some sort of leadership for such an undertaking to be successful.
There are some people with more experience in such things than the others.

There's is no leader in the sense of someone giving orders telling others what to do.
But there has to be some leadership in the sense of those helping the group to agree
how to get things done in an orderly fashion. If not, there would have been nothing
but chaos. And OWS has shown a remarkable amount of self-discipline and restraint
-- in spite of serious provocation. This can't be done without a lot of fore-thought
and agreement. My hat off to them.

[MineralMan]

6. Civil disobedience requires arrests to be effective.

700 arrests accomplishes a lot. It ties up the city's courts. It makes the news. That is how you do it. Non-violent civil disobedience that leads to many arrests.

Bravi! to the protesters. Film at 11.

[Cal33]

8. "Film at 11." At which channel? And thanks!

[MineralMan]

9. Pretty much every channel. It was on the local news here in

Minneapolis/St. Paul this morning, with video. It was in the local paper this morning. Arrests get coverage. That's why they're a plus for any activism. It is not until large numbers of people are arrested that the media takes much notice. When the media notices, everyone hears about it. How many times was Gandhi arrested, do you suppose? Here in the US, old Henry Thoreau got himself arrested, and refused to leave the jail. Someone finally paid his fine, and he was pissed off about it. It is only when the government takes the step of arresting people that the protest is becoming effective. That's one of the fundamentals of civil disobedience.

[Cal33]

13. Thanks. I've also read that some of the police are on our side! Have you read it also?

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Good point, but does pissing off ordinary people really help?

I'm dubious that "raising awareness" in ordinary folk accomplishes anything positive if your method of raising their awareness frustrates and angers them. There are ways to get arrested that don't involve being an asshole to people who aren't responsible for what you're protesting. (general "you," not you personally, MM!)

[MineralMan]

16. Most people weren't actually affected by the closure of

the bridge. Most people never cross that bridge. Most people are now hearing about this protest for the very first time as they read their Sunday newspaper and watch the TV. Most people don't live in NYC.

First, people complained that there was no media coverage. Now there is media coverage. What's the downside?

[Lizzie Poppet]

20. I was speaking specifically about those who were.

You may very well be right that the overall effect of such things, when the (annoyingly sparse) media coverage is taken into account, is positive. It's impossible to say with certainty, but it's a very good point you'r emaking. But I think that it's very likely that the people who were adversely impacted by the bridge closure are far less supportive of the protesters' goals than they were before.

[MineralMan]

23. Their numbers are insignificant, really.

That a few people were inconvenienced for a short time isn't really relevant.

[mmonk]

15. I agree arrests brings more attention.

Peaceful civil disobedience usually has arrests and the arrests in many regards helps the cause.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. I expect attempts to co-opt the movement

along with everything else they can think of to dissipate the anger and focus.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. "a huge annoyance"

oh nonsense. Had the police, who by the way appear to have deliberately routed the march onto the main traffic lane, simply let the marchers cross the bridge there would have been a minor additional impediment to the normally impeded bridge traffic. Horrors. The excuses that the arm chair critics come up with for denouncing whatever these people do, people who have acted - finally - to put the left into the dialog, is getting ridiculous. Get your ass out there if you think you have a better plan. They will let you speak your mind and provide a chorus of human megaphones to help get your message out.

[Lizzie Poppet]

17. Well, yeah.

The average person who was frustrated and angered because they got caught in a traffic jam and prevented from getting where they needed to go isn't going to make the connection to the cops. They're going to blame the protesters. It might not be fair...but it's human nature. Those people are going to be markedly less supportive, not more.

And yes, I'm going to be proudly on the front lines when #occupyportland starts up on the 6th. Couldn't keep me away...but we're not going to block a bridge, either.

[Cal33]

19. Welcome to DU Lizzie. Don't be bothered by an occasional sour-puss post.

We all have our bad days occasionally. And my hat off to you for your courage and dedication
in taking active part with Occupy Portland on Oct. 6. Best wishes to all of you idealistic
young people! And THANKS!

[Lizzie Poppet]

21. Thank you!

I'm looking forward to it! I don't expect any serious trouble, as P-Town cops are pretty used to protesters at this point - they get a lot of practice! The cops here have a decent (although certainly not perfect) relationship with the progressive community.

Something seems somehow different about this movement, though. I don't know what it is, but I'm getting the vague impression that it's going to lead to something, lead to change. From Arab Spring to American Autumn, perhaps...

[Cal33]

25. You're very welcome. I also have the feeling that this movement is going to

lead to something -- and something really big. For one thing, I could hardly
believe that within a week of its beginning, it had already started to, and now,
after two weeks, it already is a NATIONWIDE MOVEMENT.

It took the Vietnam War protesters a lot more time than that. They started
small and remained small for quite a while. But they did grow, and finally, they
won. They played a huge role in stopping the war.

I feel that the movement to stop the outrageous behavior of corporations is
finally taking place after centuries of their abuse. It is international
in nature -- and by definition, "international" means a "biggie."

It will take a long, long time, but these corrupt, thieving, international crooks
are finally going to get their come-uppance!

Much time, hard work, pain and resolve will be involved, but it will be of benefit for
future generations, if this is the moment that we have begun to change the centuries
of mess created by these greedy and conscienceless parasites.

[blm]

27. I support OccupyWS, but, my brother is a firefighter/EMS and I can see how medical emergencies need

consideration, as well. A good organizer would have the protesters advised how to keep necessary flow of traffic and keep the protest from becoming a death sentence for someone in need of medical attention.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. you do understand that the police routed the marchers

onto the main roadway on the bridge in order to corral and arrest them, right? So I find the 'but what about an ambulance' criticism rather dubious. Anyway, having been in many a spontaneous protest, an emergency vehicle would have no problem at all getting through. The marchers would have gotten out of the way. Oh, and the arrest procedure - the corralling and taking of 700 people - was the primary cause of the blocked traffic. Take this up with the NYPD.

[blm]

29. I do understand that - my point is that the protest does need organization that keeps some flow

matters in mind. IMO, that's a crucial ground rule for their overall success.

No way am I excusing what the police did here. Why on earth would you take it that way given my postings over the years?

[Cal33]

30. "Why on earth would you take it that way given my postings over the years?" He

got off the wrong side of the bed today. He did it with me, too. :)

[Bodhi BloodWave]

45. one of the video clips i've seen had a police officer tell people to leave the

bridge or risk being arrested with the protesters chanting 'take the bridge'

Is that how the police route protesters these days?

[Cal33]

18. Yes, it could be a huge annoyance. Imagine someone seriously ill being

driven to a hospital, someone needing help of some kind. Such things do happen.

As for "denouncing what these people do," where do you find me denouncing anybody?
You're jumping to conclusions based on non-existing facts. I am all for the
Occupy WS. They are finally doing something after nearly three years of depressing
news from official sources. After a long absence, finally hope is on the rise
again.

Let's not spoil it by bickering!

[Tsiyu]

22. Because of what Wall Street has done

There are many, many people who aren't getting to the hospital when they need help of some kind.

Just sayin'....if that's the issue, Wall Street has blocked ALL of America's streets.....

[MineralMan]

24. +100

[Cal33]

26. You are correct. We have been provoked into all this by the endless Wall St. greed!

[southernyankeebelle]

31. Back in the 60s the people who camped in DC had soldiers in their

mist and they didn't even know it. Remember in MN at the republican convention the police went to a house a raided it and arrested people. They are every where. I hope the demonstrators are aware that the Bretfarts are doing their best to make them look bad. Pay attention. They are hoping you all go off the track and start fighting with the police. Be on your Ps and Qs.

[librechik]

34. it seems to be a police technique called kettling, according to OWS website

although it wouldn't surprise me to see Tea baggers infiltrating to cause trouble.

[blogslut]

35. I've read reports that the protesters were driven onto the bridge by the NYPD

...as a means to corral, contain and ultimately arrest a great number of them.

[Cal33]

37. Wouldn't the police commissioner of NYC have to consult with the mayor first, before embarking upon

any action of this nature and size?

[blogslut]

39. I think Mayor Bloomberg is looking for ways to shut this down

He said as much earlier this week.

[Puregonzo1188]

41. Yes, they were. I knew 19 people arrested--that's the story they told.

[lindysalsagal]

46. I don't know. Did you see any of these?