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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:02 AM Original message |
CASUS BELLI - International Law of War vs. U.S. Criminal Due Process (the Yemen Hellfire killings) |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:06 AM Response to Original message |
1. U.S. Code definitions for terrorism |
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MineralMan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:08 AM Response to Original message |
2. Thanks for that detailed explanation. |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:36 AM Response to Reply #2 |
6. "The opposite to love is not hatred, but indifference." |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:22 AM Response to Reply #2 |
17. MM - the OP did a c/p from Bush* DOJ (Yoo) memo dated 9/14/2001 |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:08 PM Response to Reply #17 |
25. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:22 PM Response to Reply #25 |
26. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:32 PM Response to Reply #26 |
27. Deleted message |
stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:32 PM Response to Reply #17 |
42. And you happily leaped into an argument based on a Guilt by Association fallacy nt |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:03 PM Response to Reply #42 |
53. No leap. The argument asserted by the OP is based on this 9/14/2001 Woo memo |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:49 PM Response to Reply #53 |
61. If you didnt want to assert guilt by association, you could have just argued the points. You knew |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:54 PM Response to Reply #61 |
64. Christ on a crutch... I defer to your greater insight and perception. |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 03:03 PM Response to Reply #42 |
67. He thinks that this is the infamous "Terror Memo." |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:14 AM Response to Original message |
3. Deleted message |
Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:20 AM Response to Reply #3 |
16. The OP posted bits of John Yoo's 9/14/2001 memo in support of expanding Pres authority... |
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bluestate10 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:30 AM Response to Reply #16 |
20. I don't have to be a fan of someone to acknowledge that some of |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:34 AM Response to Reply #20 |
21. So you stand with WOO/ Bush* DOJ then? |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:58 PM Response to Reply #21 |
31. Confuses September 2001 with the much later Torture Memo. |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:27 PM Response to Reply #21 |
37. There is a reason that "Guilt by Association" reasoning is considered a logical fallacy |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:12 PM Response to Reply #37 |
55. 1) I know of bluestateguy well enough to know he's no Bush* fan |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:53 PM Response to Reply #55 |
63. If you want to speak to just one person, use private mail. This is a discussion forum |
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Vinnie From Indy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:26 AM Response to Original message |
4. Would your post validate the idea that the US suspended the Constitution with AUMF and that we have |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:48 AM Response to Reply #4 |
7. Hamilton, Madison and Haig v. Agee (1981) made the Constitution fully fit to handle terrorism. |
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COLGATE4 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:33 AM Response to Original message |
5. Interesting. Need some cites - |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:07 AM Response to Reply #5 |
11. 'Fess up. You didn't read the article. |
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COLGATE4 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:56 PM Response to Reply #11 |
51. Yep. I read it. Still don't see any cites for what are only his |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:16 AM Response to Reply #5 |
15. His cites, his argument, are found in a John Yoo (BUSH*) DOJ memo dated 9/14/2001 |
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COLGATE4 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:59 PM Response to Reply #15 |
52. Thanks for the cite. I knew that most of the posting had been written by a lawyer |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:29 PM Response to Reply #52 |
59. I feel as if I've stepped through the looking glass... happens a lot here anymore. |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:50 PM Response to Reply #52 |
62. So help Melinda attack the points then instead of equating OP with Bush/Yoo nt |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:49 AM Response to Original message |
8. That is the CLAIM. It is not settled law by any means. n/t |
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fascisthunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:09 AM Response to Reply #8 |
12. THANK YOU! (nt) |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:29 AM Response to Reply #12 |
19. @ggreenwald: Those praising President Obama's actions on Awlaki include |
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bluestate10 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:35 AM Response to Reply #19 |
22. The people praising the action don't make it a wrong action. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:46 AM Response to Reply #22 |
24. Yes, I remember your call for more killing from other posts. n/t |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:28 PM Response to Reply #24 |
39. Which even if true, would not impact his opinion here. nt |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:28 PM Response to Reply #22 |
38. Exactly right, see my #40 nt |
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Major Hogwash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 06:02 PM Response to Reply #19 |
87. So, what the hell difference does that make? Glen's black & white thinking is what is wrong with him |
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nineteen50 (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:51 AM Response to Original message |
9. So |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:24 AM Response to Reply #9 |
18. The Constitution ALLOWS a Declaration of War again a foreign nation. |
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malthaussen (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:53 AM Response to Original message |
10. Useful Information |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:43 AM Response to Reply #10 |
23. I am delighted that Hamilton and Madison anticipated these problems. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:14 AM Response to Original message |
13. Deleted message |
jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 11:16 AM Response to Original message |
14. US citizens are to be bound by international law and the UN, not the Constitution |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:17 PM Response to Reply #14 |
33. The Constitution works perfectly well with international law, Interpol and the U.N. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:23 PM Response to Reply #33 |
36. Our soldiers and politicians as well, then, are subject to international law |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:31 PM Response to Reply #36 |
41. Interesting subjects that have nothing to do with whether what was done was legal nt |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:38 PM Response to Reply #41 |
45. Appeal to authority as it harms our enemies, deny and reject it as it threatens our friends |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:46 PM Response to Reply #45 |
49. True or no, still has nothing to do with whether what was done was legal. |
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Gregorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:45 PM Response to Original message |
28. Only if we're always at war. |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:52 PM Response to Reply #28 |
30. Yes, indeed. |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:20 PM Response to Reply #28 |
34. Any congressperson can introduce a resolution to supercede the AUMF. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:29 PM Response to Reply #34 |
40. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:33 PM Response to Reply #40 |
43. Deleted message |
jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:41 PM Response to Reply #43 |
47. You don't understand what ad hominem means |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:45 PM Response to Reply #47 |
48. You used an attack on that poster as part of your reasoning. Clearly ad-hominem nt |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:17 PM Response to Reply #48 |
56. I merely pointed the results of that reasoning when shared by so many |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:54 PM Response to Reply #56 |
65. The mods clearly agreed with my assessment that your post was ad-hominem. nt |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:56 PM Response to Reply #65 |
66. People agree to what is wrong all the time. It's why we're in this thread. |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 03:04 PM Response to Reply #66 |
68. Keep telling yourself that. nt |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:36 PM Response to Reply #40 |
44. Do you really think I am preventing Dennis Kucinich from doing anything? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:39 PM Response to Reply #44 |
46. Fear of voters such as yourself does have that sort of power. |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:54 PM Response to Reply #46 |
50. Re-election before principle? Not that I blame Dennis....nt |
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stevenleser (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:03 PM Response to Reply #50 |
54. What I find amazing is, that person accuses some Democrats of having such amazing power |
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COLGATE4 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:21 PM Response to Reply #34 |
57. For the same reason the Patriot Act is still on the books. Because |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 12:48 PM Response to Original message |
29. I would only add to your excellent and informative post that the AUMF of 9/18/01 invokes the WPA |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:03 PM Response to Reply #29 |
32. Yep. Text follows ::: |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 01:22 PM Response to Reply #32 |
35. I wonder that no congressperson has ever introduced a resolution to supersede this one? |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:29 PM Response to Reply #35 |
58. good question. |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 02:32 PM Response to Reply #32 |
60. clear as a bell. |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:49 PM Response to Reply #29 |
77. Went back and looked at it.... Looks more like Vietnam war powers authorization. |
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sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 03:05 PM Response to Original message |
69. So Bush was right after all and we DO owe him an apology? |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 03:24 PM Response to Reply #69 |
70. Certifying and registering terrorists for U.S. & international response... |
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sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 03:32 PM Response to Reply #70 |
71. Giving the POTUS the powers of a king was a huge issue |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:07 PM Response to Reply #71 |
73. We notched that "king" stuff up to his personal narcissism. |
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sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:55 PM Response to Reply #73 |
79. The ACLU and other Civil Libertarians and Constitutional lawyers |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:28 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. "use lethal force against its own citizens" ... that's a bit a stretch in the case of al-Awlaki. |
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sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:37 PM Response to Reply #81 |
84. He was born here. That makes him a citizen and as such he has |
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DCBob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 07:32 PM Response to Reply #84 |
88. technically of course you are correct. |
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fascisthunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:47 PM Response to Reply #71 |
76. it depends.... being on DU is not the same as being on the "left" |
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sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:13 PM Response to Reply #76 |
80. Thank you, sometimes I have to look around to see where I am |
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saras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:02 PM Response to Original message |
72. That international law scares the shit out of me |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:12 PM Response to Reply #72 |
74. Nuking a server farm... |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:45 PM Response to Original message |
75. Respectfully requested: Please, please, please provide the U.N Statutory (law) code you cite here: |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:30 PM Response to Reply #75 |
82. That's funny. Try google for Interpol, UNODC, [UN + terrorism] and the Conventions... |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:49 PM Response to Reply #82 |
86. Your link is non-specific; there is no definition to be found |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 07:34 PM Response to Reply #86 |
89. LOL ! n/t |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 07:47 PM Response to Reply #89 |
90. Deleted message |
Major Hogwash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 10:49 PM Response to Reply #90 |
92. He backed up everything he said in this thread. The President acted legally. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-03-11 05:09 AM Response to Reply #92 |
93. Deleted message |
Exilednight (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 04:53 PM Response to Original message |
78. When did we declare war in Yemen? Technically, we have not declared since Daddy George invaded Iraq |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:34 PM Response to Reply #78 |
83. The U.S. has not declared war since WW II. Authorizing war powers is different. |
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Exilednight (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 05:39 PM Response to Reply #83 |
85. Well, if that's the case, then the OP is even less credible. Let's be honest, the |
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Bonobo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-02-11 07:52 PM Response to Original message |
91. Here. |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-03-11 06:10 AM Response to Reply #91 |
94. Welcome To New York ! |
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Melinda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-03-11 12:05 PM Response to Original message |
95. Providing a quasi-legal brief w/out controlling authorities is invalid. Your opinion only; not law. |
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vets74 (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-04-11 07:16 AM Response to Original message |
96. Shill-troll "Melinda Barton" ? Start out objecting to everything, sets records as a Concern Troll. |
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