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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 01:40 PM
Original message
Is the entire world a battlefield in the War on Terror?
And if not, which geographical areas qualify as battlefields? Iraq? Afghanistan? Yemen?
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. There are no borders, including inside your mind.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, terrorists are everywhere, we have to drain the swamp. nt
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Quick and easy way to identify a battlefield:
People shooting at other people.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hmmm?
"Is the entire world a battlefield in the War on Terror?"

Terrorists exist in places around the world. The tools to deal with them vary by location.

Are training facilities and safe havens battlefields?

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is a contested claim that Bush made and Obama is making. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Um,
"This is a contested claim that Bush made and Obama is making."

...from law signed by Bill Clinton:

(4) the President should use all necessary means, including covert action and military force, to disrupt, dismantle, and destroy international infrastructure used by international terrorists, including overseas terrorist training facilities and safe havens;



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. UM, yes, it is contested and an expansion from Clinton
Edited on Sun Oct-02-11 02:58 PM by EFerrari
who did not claim he could kill anyone anywhere and that his right was unreviewable.

The federal judge who heard ACLU's case against Obama's claim threw it out on procedural grounds:

"Judge Bates did not confront those central questions in his dismissal order, throwing the case out on procedural grounds. But he acknowledged that questions remain"

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/1207/Judge-dismisses-bid-to-remove-Anwar-al-Awlaki-from-US-kill-list

Add the UN's Special Rapporteur on US Targeted Killings condemnation to the CCR's and the ACLU's:

Statement of U.N. Special Rapporteur on U.S. Targeted Killings Without Due Process

August 3, 2010

Statement of Professor Philip Alston, John Norton Pomeroy Professor of Law, NYU School of Law, former U.N. Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions (2004-2010), and author of a report on targeted killings submitted to the U.N. Human Rights Council in June 2010:

The United States' assertion of an ever-expanding but ill-defined license to commit targeted killings against individuals around the globe, without accountability, does grave damage to the international legal frameworks designed to protect the right to life. Targeted killing -- defined as the intentional, premeditated, and deliberate use of lethal force, by a state or its agents acting under color of law, against a specific individual who is not in the perpetrator’s custody -- is permitted only in exceptional circumstances. Targeted killing is usually legal only in armed conflict situations when used against combatants or fighters, or civilians who directly engage in combat-like activities, and international law requires that any state that uses targeted killing must demonstrate that its actions comply with the laws of war.

To comply with its accountability obligations, the United States should disclose when and where it has authorized its forces, including the Central Intelligence Agency, to kill, the criteria for individuals who may be killed, how the U.S. Government ensures killings are legal, and what follow-up there is when civilians are illegally killed. Disclosure of these basic legal determinations is the very essence of accountability, but the United States has so far failed to meet this requirement. Instead, it has claimed a broad and novel theory that there is a 'law of 9/11' that enables it to legally use force in the territory of other States as part of its inherent right to self-defence on the basis that it is in an armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban and undefined ‘associated forces’. This expansive and open-ended interpretation of the right to self-defence threatens to destroy the prohibition on the use of armed force contained in the UN Charter, which is essential to the international rule of law. If other states were to claim the broad-based authority that the United States does, to kill people anywhere, anytime, the result would be chaos. The serious challenges posed by terrorism are undeniable, but the fact that enemies do not play by the rules does not mean that the U.S. Government can unilaterally re-interpret them or cast them aside. The credibility of the U.S. Government's claim that it has turned the page on previous wrongdoing and seeks to uphold the rule of law in its actions against alleged 'terrorists' is called into question by its targeted killing policy.

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/statement-un-special-rapporteur-us-targeted-killings-without-due-process

No, this isn't settled by a long run except in the minds of political partisans.





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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Hmmmm?
Edited on Sun Oct-02-11 03:15 PM by ProSense
"UM, yes, it is contested and an expansion from Clinton who did not claim he could kill anyone anywhere and that his right was unreviewable."

...more excuses for Clinton, who did bomb Afghanistan, Sudan and engage in covert operations in several countries.

The ACLU is trying to define a battlefield, that's fine. But invoking al-Awlaki's U.S. citizenship and claiming that the killing of a terrorist in any situation is off limits is nonsense. He was a terrorist.

ACLU Lens: American Citizen Anwar Al-Aulaqi Killed Without Judicial Process

Today in Yemen, U.S. air strikes killed American citizen Anwar Al-Aulaqi. Al-Aulaqi has never been charged with a crime. Last year, the ACLU and Center for Constitutional Rights represented Al-Aulaqi's father in a lawsuit challenging the government's asserted authority to carry out "targeted killings" of U.S. citizens located far from any armed conflict zone. We argued that such killings violate the Constitution and international law, but the case was dismissed in federal court last December.

In response to today's killing of Al-Aulaqi, ACLU Deputy Legal Director Jameel Jaffer said:

The targeted killing program violates both U.S. and international law. As we've seen today, this is a program under which American citizens far from any battlefield can be executed by their own government without judicial process, and on the basis of standards and evidence that are kept secret not just from the public but from the courts. The government's authority to use lethal force against its own citizens should be limited to circumstances in which the threat to life is concrete, specific, and imminent. It is a mistake to invest the President — any President — with the unreviewable power to kill any American whom he deems to present a threat to the country.

<...>

(emphasis added)

Secret U.S. memo sanctioned killing of Aulaqi

The Justice Department wrote a secret memorandum authorizing the lethal targeting of Anwar al-Aulaqi, the American-born radical cleric who was killed by a U.S. drone strike Friday, according to administration officials.

The document was produced following a review of the legal issues raised by striking a U.S. citizen and involved senior lawyers from across the administration. There was no dissent about the legality of killing Aulaqi, the officials said.

<...>

The Obama administration has spoken in broad terms about its authority to use military and paramilitary force against al-Qaeda and associated forces beyond “hot,” or traditional, battlefields such as Iraq or Afghanistan. Officials said that certain belligerents aren’t shielded because of their citizenship.

<...>

The American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights argued on behalf of Aulaqi’s father last year that there is no “battlefield” in Yemen and that the administration should be forced to articulate publicly its legal standards for killing any citizen outside the United States who is suspected of terrorism.

<...>

That's basically the ACLU's argument, that there is no "battlefield" in Yemen, and that's debatable. That argument is also the basis of the claim that Obama has expanded the policy, but, again, it requires accepting that there is no battlefield in Yemen.

When Clinton bombed a target in Afghanistan in an attempt to get Osama bin Laden in 1998, was the country a battlefield?

Any member of al Qaeda can surrender, but it's clear that members of the group risk death because of their ongoing activities. That's not a novel concept, nor is it one limited to post 2001 counterterrorism.

From the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force

<...>

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. (a) IN GENERAL.—That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

<...>


In 1996, Clinton signed the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996

<...>

The Congress finds that—
(1) international terrorism is among the most serious transnational threats faced by the United States and its allies, far eclipsing the dangers posed by population growth or pollution;

(2) the President should continue to make efforts to counter international terrorism a national security priority;

(3) because the United Nations has been an inadequate forum for the discussion of cooperative, multilateral responses to the threat of international terrorism, the President should undertake immediate efforts to develop effective multilateral responses to international terrorism as a complement to national counter terrorist efforts;

(4) the President should use all necessary means, including covert action and military force, to disrupt, dismantle, and destroy international infrastructure used by international terrorists, including overseas terrorist training facilities and safe havens;

(5) the Congress deplores decisions to ease, evade, or end international sanctions on state sponsors of terrorism, including the recent decision by the United Nations Sanctions Committee to allow airline flights to and from Libya despite Libya’s noncompliance with United Nations resolutions; and

(6) the President should continue to undertake efforts to increase the international isolation of state sponsors of international terrorism, including efforts to strengthen international sanctions, and should oppose any future initiatives to ease sanctions on Libya or other state sponsors of terrorism.

<...>

(emphasis added)

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There are only 2 problems with Obama's killing of this AQ leader
No credible legal expert agrees that it was legal. No credible Al Qaida expert agrees that he was a leader.

Otherwise, break out the champagne!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hmmm?
"No credible legal expert agrees that it was legal."

You can find some "legal experts" who didn't think killing Osama bin Laden was legal.

A terrorist is a terrorist.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Imagine the arrogance to think national law applies to all other nations...
and the authoritarian mentality that would cite such a paragraph as justification for hostilities abroad. On top of that, it's vague and non-compulsory ("should").

By definition, "covert action" means breaking the laws of other nations or international law.
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blkmusclmachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. World War III:
More commonly called the "War on Terra."
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Since there has been NO DECLARATION OF WAR and you can not have a war on a tactic there is no answer
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It is purposefully ambigous
Edited on Sun Oct-02-11 02:24 PM by Harmony Blue
such that the "war" can never end and you give up many rights as a result.

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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. One war I wouldn't mind is a war on disease.
All of these other so-called wars are bullshit. They're weak. They exist in order to pave the way for profits.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. Is Langley a target yet? The CIA is responsible for killing more civilians than Al-Queda
ever dreamed of.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Bush Doctrine: literally everywhere, especially the US
remember when DU made fun of those soppy-eyed fanatics who literally worshipped the President no matter what he did? remember when we called Dubya "Bushler" for his militarism, murders, secret prisons, and suspension of the Constitution? remember when DUers were against the AUMF? remember when people rightly pointed out that it was exactly like the German Enabling Act?
that makes me feel really old

and remember, kids, if you tell someone you'll support them no matter what they do, they have no incentive to change their behavior
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bush and Cheney declared the entire world a battlefield to justify their actions.
What constitutes a battlefield has long (long) been settled.

Lawsuits against actions taken by the Bush administration take into account the established law regarding battlefields and what Bush declared was a battelfield...from treatment of POW/"enemy combatants" to indefinite detentions to extraordinary rendition. The fact is - the US expanded the definition of battlefield to suit its desires...in doing so called into question the legality of all actions claiming "battlefield" status.

Anyone paying attention to the lawsuits filed against Bush will remember this...and others are welcome to research for themselves.

The Bush administration was very successful in confusing the American people about such things.
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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. However, our current transparent Administration will tell the truth - you bet.
On Friday, exemplifying the administration's secrecy, White House spokesman Jay Carney said that "we're not going to address circumstances of (Awlaki's) death."

But through congressional hearings, legal briefs and other documents, some glimmers reveal how much Obama has come to rely on the war-fighting reasoning previously articulated by the Bush administration.
---
More specifically, the Obama administration finds justification through the two-page Authorization for Use of Military Force introduced on Sept. 14, 2001, and signed by President George W. Bush four days later.

The bill authorized action against those who "planned, authorized, committed or aided the (9/11) terrorist attacks." A decade later, the Obama administration contends that this wartime authority remains even if it's evolved for reasons the administration won't fully elucidate.

"The (president's) judgment as to whether force is authorized against (al Qaida) or any other organization is informed by changing circumstances and sensitive intelligence that cannot be disclosed" in court, Assistant Attorney General Tony West argued in an October 2010 legal filing.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/30/125807/was-obamas-order-to-kill-al-qaida.html#ixzz1ZfDzMiif?du
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Thanks for the link
:(
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-11 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's the world's first for-profit war.
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