What is the specific goal of OccupyWallSt?

[begin_within]

I understand the reasons behind the movement. I've looked briefly at some of the sites. I'm just curious as to what specific change(s) are the goal.

[ixion]

1. here you go

This describes the goals quite clearly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2042770

[begin_within]

3. Thanks, but

that's a litany of the grievances... but I don't see any specific demands there.

[ixion]

4. you can try and obfuscate all you want

but their message is quite clear to anyone who is paying attention.

[Exilednight]

7. No one is arguing that there is a message, but what exactly do they want for a remedy? Every other

major protest this year had demands and remedies. Egypt wanted Mumbarak out of office, but their remedy was free and fair elections.

From your link: "They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage."
That's a grievance, but what what should be done about it?

This is why I don't have a lot of faith in this protest. The whole thing is being done ass backwards. First you make a list of grievances, then you make a list of desired outcomes, then you begin to protest.

Instead, OccupyWallStreet started with the protest, then a list of grievances, and now we are heading into the third week and we still don't know what they hope to accomplish.

[ixion]

9. I think they're doing just fine.

When the system is corrupt, you have to start outside the system. The demands are clear. It's time to end the systemic corruption that permeates everything, and return the commons to We, the people.

The system works for us, not for corporations, not the lobbyists, not the banksters. That is message, in no uncertain terms. Third Way triangulation doesn't work.

[Exilednight]

14. Alright, so your statement is that third way triangualtion does not work, so what system,

specifically, should be put in place? If you want people to support this, then it's questions like these that need to be answered in minute detail. You're talking about replacing an entire system.

I agree that it needs to be replaced, but I have yet to see anyone suggest a system that I can support.

[ixion]

16. I think it's too early to talk about replacements

I think the system needs to be removed first.

The type of argument you're using is what has been used so often in the past to derail real change. That time has passed.

[Exilednight]

21. You can't remove an engine from a car, no more than you can remove the engine from an economy, and

hope to go somewhere once you pull it out.

I'm sorry you feel that way about my argument, but it's fact. I refuse to support anything until I know all the facts. History has taught us that it is dangerous to support movements that are not fully developed.

[ixion]

22. No, history has shown that it is not prudent to prop up corrupt regimes

and that is what we have, and making a bureaucracy to replace a bureaucracy isn't going to do it. Obfuscation such as you posit is what the corrupt system counts on for its survival.

[Exilednight]

25. Again, I'm sorry you feel that way. Truth be told, bureaucracy will always be replaced with

bureaucracy. One person's utopia is another persons bureaucracy.

I'm not arguing that the current system is messed up, but no one has offered a system to replace it. I'm not going to replace the devil I know with a devil that no one has ever seen or heard of.

Basically, with no substantial system to replace it, we are only left with anarchy, and I will not support anarchy.

[ixion]

26. No one is talking about anarchy

although, in truth, anarchy is an enlightened system, not a violent one, but I digress.

As I said initially, I believe it's too early to talk about replacements. I think the movement needs to gain momentum. I understand what you're saying about bureaucracy, though.

For now, let's just say that we're going to replace a corrupt bureaucracy that lacks transparency and oversight with an uncorrupted one that allows for complete transparency, oversight and accountability, and lives to serve the people rather than corrupt corporations.

[Exilednight]

28. Now that is something I could probably get behind. It's not enough to get me out

and protesting, I still want to hear what the system is, but it's a good foundation on which to build.

[Owlet]

31. Of course you're talking about anarchy

Anarchy as a political theory/movement, not the breakdown of society. Nothing wrong with that, but let's be honest about it.

"Anarchism, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government." Emma Goldman

[ixion]

35. which is why I said it was enlightened, not violent.

Anarchy, founded by Michael Bakunin and a group of intellectuals, was all about freeing people from oppressive government, and religion.

However, it was also about the abolishment of government, which is not what we're talking about, hence not talking about anarchy as a replacement.

I admit, however, that I'm a fan of Bakunin and what he proposed, I understand the need for basic governance of the Commons. Government, however, should work for us, rather than vice versa. That's the difference.

[Exilednight]

36. Personally, I could bet behind social anarchy, but I am not for full out anarchy. The problem with

such terms is that there are many forms of anarchy, just as there are many forms of democracy.

[ixion]

41. yeah, humans aren't ready for full-on anarchy... not yet.

so I agree.

[Shagbark Hickory]

40. If I didn't know better, I'd think they want to overthrow Obama.

Where were the protests under Bush? And why don't we see many teabaggers at these protests?

[ixion]

44. there were all sorts of protests under Bush.

[Shagbark Hickory]

45. OK well Bush is gone, Obama is in.

[ixion]

50. And yet the corruption remains.

and that is what this is all about.

[U4ikLefty]

55. Much respect ixion.

I participated in the "Occupy Los Angeles" march from Pershing Square to City Hall this weekend. Now it's on both coasts!!!

God bless folks like you and the others with courage to fight for us all.

I'll be at L.A. city hall next weekend...unity & peace my friend.

[ixion]

56. Thanks, U4ikLefty!

Right back at'cha! :yourock:

[Exilednight]

46. There were plenty of anti-war rallies when Bush was president, and there were protests against

Cheney's death squads. I've been down to the protests, and there are teabaggers out there. Granted, there aren't many, but they are there. There are also LaRouchites out there along with a host of other political groups. Given the new 21 points memo, they may have left the protest, but they were out there the first weekend.

[Shagbark Hickory]

49. Ok well... Bush is gone now. Obama is in office.

[Exilednight]

51. The name of the person occupying the office matters not, it's their actions. n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

54. Which is why I say it looks like they want to overthrow Obama

[ixion]

57. No. They want to end the corruption.

Obama is incidental.

[Shagbark Hickory]

72. I'm just pointing out how it looks. That's all.

[shanti]

74. it's the SYSTEM that needs fixing

the sockpuppet doesn't make any difference!

[ixion]

78. mmmm

no comment.

[Exilednight]

59. Not everything is about Obama. Either he can get behind the movement and give the protesters a

voice, or he can stand behind the status-quo, or he can put forward his own reform policy and hope people get behind it.

Obama is mature enough to make his own decisions. The question is, is he smart enough to make the right decision? If history is any indicator, then the answer is, probably not.

[ixion]

62. well said.

:applause:

[saras]

75. What's so hard about taking the money back from the bank and giving the house back to the homeowner?

Give me a platoon of Marines, and I can't think of a bank in the country where I couldn't get it done in an hour.

That's not their plan, it's my plan. Took about fifteen seconds to come up with.

"Enforce existing law" is enough of a plan to shut down Wall Street completely, and send thousands of players to prison for really long sentences, especially if RICO is invoked extensively.

[Exilednight]

96. But no one is protesting for your remedy. Personally, I'd like to see laws changed. It was by

exploiting the law that allowed this happen. Close the loopholes and plenty of issues are resolved.

[Matariki]

8. +1

Crystal clear.

[begin_within]

37. You still haven't answered my question...

[ixion]

43. ah, but I did...

follow that thread, and if that doesn't do it, then do your homework. ;)

[begin_within]

47. In other words, you have no answer.

[ixion]

48. no, as I said, the answer is right there...

but you do have to parse it. Obfuscation isn't going to work.

If you're looking for a sound byte, though, the best I can offer is they want an end to corruption in both the corporations and the government.

[iamjoy]

10. I Disagree With This Statement

"They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions."

The truth is, they have sought to strip employees of the rights to negotiate for fair pay and safe working conditions

At this point, it is no longer about improving our standard of living, but maintaining it

[ixion]

12. It is about removing corruption from a corrupt system.

The system works for We, the People, not vice versa, which, I believe, would encompass the changes you're talking about.

[iamjoy]

18. I'm Being Too Literal, Aren't I? (eom)

[ixion]

63. you're fine.

:toast:

[butterfly77]

88. And this...

WE ARE THE ONES WE ARE WAITING FOR!!! For those of you who forgot...:patriot:

[xchrom]

2. They have an actual statement of purpose & grievances. Nt

[dkf]

5. Get more people arrested so they can create more anger at the system.

They want the elite to be scared into approving more distribution through the tax code.

What they don't realize is they are completely misdirected. The key is to restructure the way we do business to form support between corporations and the government in recreating a manufacturing base. Hostility and a punitive attitude won't get us anywhere because they won't get that from other countries.

The upcoming powers are that way because they have figured out how to work with their private sector. If we can't figure out how to do this then we are really screwed.

[ixion]

6. they have corrupted the system.

and playing nice isn't going to make anything better. To say that there should be nothing punitive is to let them all off the hook, which means no change.

It's that same type of triangulation that has caused Obama to be an epic failure.

[dkf]

11. Then they go to China and India where there are a billion people in each country.

We are tapped out here. Our work ethic can't keep up with theirs nor can our educational system.

Only 30% of people in India use toothpaste. Do you know how much potential there is in getting that country up to speed? We have been living off the savings of the world, as they buy our bonds and we pump up our lifestyle. We are a country in decline. You honestly think scaring them is the way to make them behave better? Or is it the way we chase them out.

Look at Greece. You want to put your money there because the people are pissed off? Or do you say forget it? Do you even want to visit there with all the turmoil and strikes?

[ixion]

13. Occupy Everywhere.

It's the only way to be sure. ;)

[girl gone mad]

68. Living off of the savings of the world?

Huh?

We have a sovereign currency. We don't need to borrow money from anyone.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. if you want to hear, their message is clear. if you don't you nitpick the details.

:shrug:

one easy take away is that they want fair taxes. the other is that they dont want all social support systems like medicare/social security destroyed. third they want financial reform. they want politicians to stop kowtowing to wall street and kowtow to the people. i could go on, but i am pretty sure, you wont find me specific enough

[ixion]

17. I think you're spot on.

:toast:

[readmoreoften]

23. The lack of demand for reforms is a tactic to let the powers that be know that there's nothing they

can do that is enough. My hope is that eventually we demand specific reforms. "We Demand X". But then when the reform is granted, instead of leaving we continue to occupy and say "Okay, next we demand Y" and we will continue to demand until we get every damn injustice rectified. (which will never happen under capitalism so the movement itself will become a movement to overthrow it.)

[Exilednight]

52. People nitpick details because that is where the devil lyes. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. no, people nitpick things like this because they are too cowardly to say they disapprove

for fear of not being considered a liberal.

[Exilednight]

58. I nitpick the details because I want to know exactly what it is people want to see

done. I'm not putting my name to anything if I don't know what the desired outcome is. As I have steadily stated, I am for people protesting, but don't expect my support if I don't agree with your resolutions. Sadly, this protest has no resolutions to present, just grievances. I'm not signing up to support an unknown.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. you act as though a large corporation is running this, with a hired marketing company to package

their message.

that's ironic.

[Exilednight]

61. Not at all. Look at Egypt, they had a single unifying message and one desired outcome. It;s funny

how a nation that lived under a dictator managed to overcome all sorts of government control and media blackout to get their initial message out, but once people saw the one thing they wanted, the world got behind it and they won over the media.

It's not really that hard to see what works and what doesn't work. Egypt worked because they kept it simple.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. because they had one person to blame and we don't

we have a plutocracy to blame and we are.

you can't keep things simple, when they are not

[Exilednight]

67. It is simple. Egypt had more than one person to blame. We have Wall Street and government. If

the goal is to end plutocracy, then make that the statement. If that's the statement, then put forward a reform like government funding for elections and no privately paid political ads by corporate money.

That's a pretty simple demand and one people of all stripes could get behind.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. they have put forward simple demands and complaints, i suspect you just dont like them

why dont you write to them to articulate a position, they are a leaderless group and might even need help with articulation

[Exilednight]

79. I've seen the grievances, but I have to see the demands. What exactly are the demands. I've

found the 21 point memo, but again, those are grievances, not demands. Anyone can identify a problem, but few seem to be able to put forward solutions.

If you are saying that there are a straightforward list of demands, then please post a link, and I will be more than happy to check them out.

[Journeyman]

19. How about you just use this as your guide. . .

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMBZDwf9dok


Peter Finch, Network

[Life Long Dem]

20. They want to generate solutions.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/02/wall-street-protesters-approve-declaration-of-occupation/

[readmoreoften]

24. To get a generation of people organized to fight this system in its entirety.

In fact, three generations of people X, Y, and the Millennials.

[L0oniX]

27. Does there have to be one goal?

[Exilednight]

29. It's a lot easier if there is only one goal. If you are out protesting x,y and z, and I am

100% against item z being implemented, then I would not support such a protest. If I am only partially against item Z, then I might support you. But, the more things you are for or against can isolate people who may support other parts of your cause.

[ret5hd]

30. So you contend that we need to get every person protesting...

to agree to one goal?

If that's truly your goal, good luck on that.

If your goal is to dampen the mood "'cause them guys can't agree on anything", well, i hope you fail. miserably.

[Exilednight]

33. So far, all there has been is a list of grievances, no one has offered solutions. I'm not out

to stop or dampen anyone's mood. I, and I would argue that most reasonable people, will not take any protest serious without stated goals and outcomes.

The other point I am making is that the more issues you raise, the more you are going to isolate people who might otherwise be with you.

[ret5hd]

70. Who speaks for the group?

I contend the individuals speak for themselves.

I also contend that anyone seriously asking such a large and spontaneous group to "Please! PLEASE! Just tell me what you want!" is either scared or on a fools errand.

[Modern_Matthew]

32. They are attacking the root of the problem...

A better question would be: "What is the specific goal of the Democratic Party in the 21st Century?"

These days, I have a hard time figuring that one out.

[Exilednight]

38. Now that's a question that needs to be seriously considered. I wish we as a party could

get together and decide on a set of goals of principles that protect the working and middle-class.

[loyalsister]

34. FOCUS

I think it would be awesome if this protest were in support of the Jobs Act or the Buffet tax. I would have more faith and enthusiasm.

[ixion]

64. neither of those things will solve the root cause of the problem

which is this: Systemic corruption at both the corporate and governmental levels.

[loyalsister]

66. Does anyone here really expect an instant fix?

This thing makes no sense if there is no attempt to identify solutions that have a chance of being implemented.

[ixion]

69. Instant? The WoD has been going on for more than 30 years

exactly how many millions of people have to die or have their lives ruined before something gets done about it?

And as far as the so-called Jobs Act/Buffet Tax goes, they are both anemic, at best.

[loyalsister]

76. Alternatives?

What realistic solution is being offered?

[ixion]

80. uh, how about ending them and restoring the Rule of Law, the Constitution and Bill of Rights

that seems like a pretty decent alternative.

[loyalsister]

82. Ending what?

And what mechanisms, policies, or laws would "restore" the constitution and bill of rights?

[ixion]

83. Ending the WoD and the WoT

Did you not even bother to read my initial post? And there is a little mechanism called Congress that is capable of rolling back the tremendous loss of civil liberties and civil rights sacrificed over the course of the last 40 years, were they so inclined.

[loyalsister]

84. Where is the proposed legislation?

What practical and realistic policy changes would make you happy?

[ixion]

87. wow...

Just wow. :wow:

If you haven't been following what has been going on OVER THE LAST FORTY YEARS than whatever I post here isn't going to help you out. And if you don't see a problem, then again, whatever I say isn't going to help.

[loyalsister]

92. A lot has happened over the past 40 yrs.

During the civil rights movement there was specific unfair laws targeted, court challenges, and eventually passage of laws.

Women's suffrage movement they protested\lobbied in favor of an amendment that had been proposed by allies in congress.

2nd wave women's movement pushed ERA and changes in policies related to job discrimination. A lot of other progress happened via court challenge.

Disability rights movement protests pushing for enforcement of laws. Demand for jobs under WPA- denied by FDR administration, protests for transportation and education access. Eventually passage of ADA- due to intense lobbying efforts accompanied by frequent protests.

Unions organized with specific goals, as well.

All involved specific legislative solutions. Those movement are still ongoing as the legal framework provides for lawsuits that are still necessary to protect gains and advance those causes further.

Without the organization and focus, all I see with this movement is a list of vague grievances.

[ixion]

94. repeal every single piece of legislation passed over the course of the last 40 years

that was passed under the guise of "fighting" these ludicrous 'wars'.

That's very specific, and since I can see now that your intent is to obfuscate, that you are part of the problem, I will no longer waste my time trying to explain it to you.

[metalbot]

89. The Tea Party would agree with you

Whole heartedly. The problem is - what does that actually mean in terms of legislation?

[ixion]

93. it means rolling back every single law passed over the course of the last 40 years

which was passed under the guise of "fighting" these so-called 'wars' of abstraction.

I see that your game is to be obtuse on purpose, and I won't waste my time with you any longer. You are part of the problem.

[WilliamPitt]

39. To piss you off.

[Shagbark Hickory]

42. To create priceless footage for 2012 Republican negative advertisements.

Seriously.
All they have to do is air footage of these protests with some caption like "The country is so tired of all these failed policies."

[akbacchus_BC]

73. I think People want to be heard as opposed to big money people!

[Skip Intro]

77. Fair question a lot of people are asking.

I've had political adversaries who are friends ask me this lately. What is the answer?

I think the protesters truly are wasting a golden opportunity to put forth defined reasons for their actions. What are they protesting, specifically? What do they want, specifically?

I think a clear message there would draw far more support vs. the passing curiosity they now receive.

And I'd like to know too.

In 2002/2003 the protests against the attack on Iraq was clear - and had an effect despite the MSM.

We knew what that was about.

What is this about? What do I tell my repub and libertarian acquaintances who ask me, "what is it about?"

[ixion]

81. It's very simple, actually

It's a call for an end to the corruption in both the corporations and the government.

[metalbot]

90. Sure, but in what specific way? nt

[ixion]

91. what part of ending corruption do you find lacking in specificity?

because it's very clear, unless your intent is to purposely obtuse.

[McCamy Taylor]

85. Same as the goals of the Civil Rights Movement, the Women's Movement etc. Economic justice.

[county worker]

86. There is no GOAL as you would have it.

[Odin2005]

95. What was the specific goal of the American Colonists in 1773?

[kentuck]

97. First, you have to become aware...

That may be the most difficult step.