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Greenwald: So much evidence, there’s no need to show it

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:08 PM
Original message
Greenwald: So much evidence, there’s no need to show it
So much evidence, there’s no need to show it

Obama officials play a Bush card by assuring everyone they have secret evidence of Anwar Awlaki's guilt
By Glenn Greenwald

During the NSA eavesdropping controversy, Bush defenders insisted there was no harm from bypassing the FISA court because they were only eavesdropping on Bad Terrorists (who could possibly object to that?), which prompted this obvious, unanswerable question (one I asked here, among other places): if you really have so much evidence proving that the targets of your eavesdropping are Terrorists, then why not go show it to the court and get a warrant? After all, the more incriminating evidence you claim exists, the more (not less) reason there is to show it to a court. Similarly, during the controversy over Bush’s (and now Obama’s) detentions without due process, administration defenders insisted there was no need to charge the detainees or try them in a court because they were only imprisoning the-worst-of-the-worst, too-dangerous-to-release Terrorists (who could possibly object to that?), which prompted the same question: if there’s so much evidence proving they’re Terrorists, isn’t that even more of a reason to prove that in court?

Now that hordes of Obama defenders are running around justifying the President’s due-process-free assassination of U.S. citizen Anwar Awlaki based on exactly the same claim and mindset — our President targeted a Very Bad Terrorist, so no due process or disclosure of evidence was needed — the same question obviously arises: if there’s so much evidence showing that Awlaki was involved in plotting Terrorist attacks on the U.S. (as opposed merely to delivering anti-U.S. sermons protected by the First Amendment), isn’t that even more of a reason to have indicted him and charged him with crimes before killing him? Please watch this amazing video of ABC News‘ Jake Tapper persistently questioning a stonewalling, imperious White House spokesman Jay Carney about this issue; remember: he’s asking the White House what evidence justified the U.S Government’s targeting of its own citizen for assassination with no due process, and the White House is telling him: we have it in secret but don’t need to show anyone (via Robert P. Murphy)

(Video at link)

That is the mindset of the U.S. Government and its followers expressed as vividly as can be: we can spy on, imprison, or even kill anyone we want — including citizens — without any due process or any evidence shown, simply because we will tell you they are Bad People, and you will trust us and believe us. That was absolutely the principal justification offered by Bush followers for everything their Leader did — I know they’re Terrorists because My President said so, so no courts or evidence is required – and that is now exactly the mindset of Obama loyalists to justify what he does (back in December, 2005, I described that defense as the ”Very Bad People” justification for lawless, due-process-free acts).

That mentality — he’s a Terrorist because my Government said he’s one and I therefore don’t need evidence or trials to subject that evidence to scrutiny — also happens to be the purest definition of an authoritarian mentality, the exact opposite of the dynamic that was supposed drive how the country functioned (Thomas Jefferson: “In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution“). I trust My President and don’t need to see evidence or have due process is the slavish mentality against which Jefferson warned; it’s also one of the most pervasive ones in much of the American citizenry, which explains a lot.

http://politics.php3.salon.com/2011/10/03/awlaki_7/singleton/
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. secret evidence that the derfendant and others don't get to see. That is NOT an American value
I worry about this trend, even though of course certain enemies are despicable--but I've always been told our rights are there specifically to protect the repugnant from mob rule. We are taking a wrong turn here again.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. It doesn't matter how "bad" someone is - justice is about the kind of nation and people
we want to be...

Course, after implementing a torture program and allowing war criminals to go free...there's really no question about the kind of nation and people we are...

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. +1
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. 13 peers need to review it. /nt
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Carney's response was apalling. It IS Guantanamo all over: They're guilty b/c they're terrorists b/c

we say so. And of course that wasn't true. Children, the elderly, miscellaneous Canadians. Bush & Co. had (and we may still have) a broad spectrum of people who, at the least, could never be properly convicted of anything, locked up and abused for years.

What makes Secret Killing more reliable than Secret Detention? If anything, there's even less motivation to be scrupulous, because the dead cannot complain later.

We don't have all these safeguards and due process requirements for no reason. And they're not intended to apply to the people we all agree are innocent.

Do we really, at this point, in America, have to make the case for why the government can't be permitted to create "kill lists" of its citizens?

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BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. To think that Carney himself was a journalist at one point.
You'd hope that he'd know better.

As far as I can tell, this is a summary of the Q and A with Tapper:

Tapper: You say this guy was a terrorist. Are you going to present any evidence for this?
Carney: He was a leader of a group that planned a bunch of bad things. Everyone in government believes that.
Tapper: Can you show us any evidence of this?
Carney: Your question "has embedded within it assumptions about the circumstances of his death that I’m just not going to address." (What on earth does that actually mean?)
Tapper: Wha...? You killed him. Are you planning on presenting evidence?
Carney: I'm not going to talk about the circumstances of his death. (What is he talking about?)
Tapper: So no evidence?
Carney: Nope.
Tapper: Don't you see at all why people might be perturbed that the president has had someone killed and won't even explain why?
Carney: I didn't realize that had happened. But this guy was a bad guy, so it's okay.

Shorter version:

Tapper: Aren't you going to provide any evidence?
Carney: He's guilty! Why do you need evidence when he's obviously guilty?
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. As long as enough people - or the right people - agree that someone was very, very bad
Let the missiles fly or the injection continue! Actual guilt or innocence is immaterial. Ain't that America somethin' to see?

But worry not, citizens. Any repercussions from this will be solely from other terrorists who hate America for its freedom. So if righteous vengeance is executed on Americans, you should be okay with that, right? Even if it's your friends or relatives paying with their lives? Otherwise, you might as well join Al Qaeda you goddam America hater!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. hmmm... that "secret" evidence .... thought the Founders took that off our backs?
Edited on Mon Oct-03-11 12:45 PM by defendandprotect
Oh -- yeah -- the Constitutiton -- Bush tore it up and now

it looks like Obama wants to burn it -- ??

Someone recently wrote that!!

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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R. n/t
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. For the win nt
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Just gets better and better, eh? Sigh. K&R n/t
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BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. One thing Greenwald said in his column really struck a nerve.
Republicans supported extraordinary executive powers when Bush was president, and they're supporting extraordinary executive powers with Obama was president. They cheered wiretapping and indefinite detention then; they're cheering extrajudicial assassination now.

Democrats were fiercely against extraordinary executive powers then, and are supportive of them now.

On this issue, at least, which side is being principled?
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Our resident authoritarians will be along soon
Not to debate the message, but to kill the messenger.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. Geez, can't you just shut up and sing, dammit?
That's what I've been told to do. By so-called "democrats" (note the little "d"). Stop bashing the administration and all ...

Sigh.

Bake
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Reading the phrase "the government's followers" is kind of creepy. n/t
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. We have a lot of those types here.
If the Repubs do it, screaming. If the Dems do it, OK.

This place makes me vomit.

Bake
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. KR&B.
Thanks for posting this. That video exchange was stunning.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. Greenwald never loved him.
KNR
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. this article gets to the most disturbing facet of the affair
maybe the guy deserved what he got - but I, as an American citizen who was still faintly holding on to a belief that our government follows the founding principles of this nation - need to see the evidence.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Yes, and remember Awlaki was only one name on a list of names
whose lives, it is being claimed, can be taken at any time without trial.
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_ed_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
19. Tyrannical
Glenn nails it. If this President or any other has the right to murder citizens with secret evidence and without a judicial process, the American experiment is over. The Constitution is just toilet paper now.

I wonder how Professor Obama would have addressed this?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. This line of argument is foolish, and weakens the case against Al-Awlaki's assassination.
I do not think anyone is seriously questioning that he was an active member of Al Quaeda, and to do so disingenuously is foolish.

By all means make the case that assassinating even terrorists is a bad precedent, and raises the risk that in future someone innocent may be assassinated (or the case that even for terrorists the death penalty is excessive). But don't try to pretend that Al-Awlaki was not an active member of a terrorist group.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Greenwald doesn't do that, but correctly points out the over inflated claims
the administration has made about Awlaki.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
21. doubleplusgood evidence!
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. the same reasoning was used by...
pol pot, stalin, hitler, robespierre, marcos, penochet, Milosovic, moron*, etc, the list goes on and on.

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