Libya: The slaughter in Sirte

[inna]

The slaughter in Sirte
3 October 2011
World Socialist Web Site


NATO countries led by the US, Britain, and France are committing terrible war crimes in the Libyan city of Sirte. In their frenzied drive to crush all remaining resistance in the North African state, NATO and its proxy militia forces aligned with the National Transitional Council are unleashing indiscriminate military force, killing civilians and destroying buildings and infrastructure throughout the urban centre.


Numerous civilian refugees who have managed to escape the siege have reported seeing schools, hospitals, homes, and other civilian buildings destroyed by NATO bombs. Air raids are now taking place around the clock. Anti-Gaddafi militiamen are firing rockets, mortar rounds and tank shells, without even pretending that they are aiming at any particular targets within the city of 100,000 people. Sirte is suffering from severe shortages of food, water and medicine supplies, further fuelling the humanitarian crisis. Children, the elderly and other vulnerable people are especially affected.

...
The slaughter in Sirte further exposes the “humanitarian” pretext for the war. Last March the imperialist governments and their mouthpieces in the media claimed, without evidence, that Gaddafi’s forces were on the verge of committing a massacre in Benghazi. Now in Sirte, NATO is perpetrating an actual bloodbath on the city’s population in an attempt to overcome the resistance in one of the last pro-Gaddafi strongholds.

...
According to estimates previously released by the National Transitional Council (NTC), by early September 30,000 people had been killed and 50,000 wounded in the war. The toll continues to escalate. According to NATO’s publicly released figures, their bombers recorded 121 separate “key hits” in Sirte in the last two weeks of September alone. These air strikes are being conducted on the basis of limited or no intelligence and therefore can only be described as indiscriminate and in blatant contravention of international law.


More at:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/oct2011/pers-o03.shtml

[EFerrari]

1. I've been reading about the NTC blocking food from going in,

shelling WHILE the Red Cross was trying to inspect, awful stories for days now. I'm afraid I'm having atrocity burn out, though, and haven't been posting much about it.

And for the unreccers, REUTERS has been doing most of the reporting of this clusterf#ck and I guess some civilians are more worthy of being "protected" by NATO than others.

[inna]

3. In full agreement, including "having atrocity burn out" and... commending Reuters on their coverage

(in relative terms, that is - compared to the rest of the MSM... i noticed some good journalism from the Independent UK, too - haven't checked them out for weeks, though.)

[EFerrari]

6. I read my best sources for MENA in the very early morning.

I'll try to do a better job posting tomorrow. :hi:

[Distant Observer]

78. Yes, a few Reuters reporter blogs leak out a little on the "other side"

[Distant Observer]

44. And medical supplies -- while pretending vigorously that that are not

[polly7]

2. K & R. nt,

[Starry Messenger]

4. recommend.

[EFerrari]

5. Libya conflict: Sirte medical need dire, says Red Cross

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15140297

Fighting halts Red Cross mission into Libya's Sirte
http://news.yahoo.com/fighting-halts-red-cross-mission-libyas-sirte-103850120.html


Libyans run gauntlet of bullets to escape Sirte
http://news.yahoo.com/libyans-run-gauntlet-bullets-escape-sirte-072131143.html

Civilians surge out of Sirte, say food dwindling
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/10380866/civilians-surge-out-of-sirte-say-food-dwindling/

Red Cross inside Sirte, bombardment continues
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/10/2/worldupdates/2011-10-01T211022Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-596522-3&sec=Worldupdates

[inna]

7. Thank you! nt

[inna]

8. Civilians under NATO bombing – Bani Walid eyewitness to RT (Oct.3)

http://rt.com/news/civilians-walid-sirte-forces-961/

[EFerrari]

9. Humanitarian fears grow over Sirte battle; govt forces advance into Qaddafi stronghold

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/10/04/170077.html

[inna]

13. NATO/’rebels’ continue to illegally block aid to the people of Sirte

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/2011/10/04/natos-rebels-illegally-block-aid-to-the-people-of-sirte/
(CNN video)

Useful Libya portal, btw:
http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/

[Distant Observer]

23. The WEST'S method of regime change is certainly more bloody than Gaddafi's

After years of secret planning Gaddafi's network of revolutionaries carried out a lightning, bloodless, coup.

Too bad his enemies in the West could not be similarly patient and creative, even if they refuse the option of supervised elections.

[PurityOfEssence]

10. Shut up, our President knows what he's doing.

Well, somewhat. Here's the rub: getting one's way is what's important, and once one defines one's allies as "good", all of their actions are good.

Very simple, isn't it?

[Distant Observer]

24. It's hard to believe he isn't paying attention to the "rebel" atrocities againsts black africans

[PurityOfEssence]

27. It took a Republican (Nixon) to open China, and a Democrat (Clinton) to kill New Deal Controls

Nothing inconvenient can be tolerated that would disturb the narrative that this was a purely altruistic rescuing of imperiled civilians. Nothing. Nothing period.

If the country devolves into a truly bloody civil war, this, too, will be Qaddafi's fault.

[bvar22]

31. The White House Justification for Starting a New War without Congressional Approval:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8


Obama's Own Words:
“The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.” ---Senator Obama, 12-20-2007


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Major Hogwash]

35. This is a NATO operation.

Bitch about that!

[PurityOfEssence]

37. The NATO Treaty ONLY allows military action in response to a member nation being attacked

It's bilge water stem to stern. The UN has the right under its charter to ask member nations to provide forces, but United States Law prohibits the President (The UN Participation Act of 1945) from providing forces unless he makes a "special agreement" with the Security Council that is then authorized by both houses of Congress.

The War Powers Resolution of 1973--which is the standing law of the land defining these enumerated powers in the Constitution--only allows a President to introduce armed forces into hostilities or where they're imminent under three conditions: pursuant to a Declaration of War by Congress, following Congressional Authorization, or if we're attacked. He is in clear defiance of this. Besides that, the bullshit that we passed the baton to NATO during the first week is ridiculous: there were manned bombing raids by US forces at least until June 18th.

NATO has no right under its own by-laws to mount this operation. None. None period. It is, in fact, running contrary to the concept of the organization.

Thanks for the puffery and the slap-down. Care to respond?

[bvar22]

38. NATO = USA

Without the FULL support of the USA,
there would be NO engagement in Libya.
WORD!

[Major Hogwash]

43. Blah, blah, blah.

President Obama engaged in this Libya operation in a totally legal manner.
And there is nothing that you can bang out on your lil' keyboards that is going to change that.

There are 7, maybe 8, peeps that whine about it here at the DU because Skinner allows it.
BFD.

This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact!

[Distant Observer]

69. Legal because the Repubs like it and a Dem is doing it. F the law

[sabrina 1]

86. Why? You are doing a great job of bitching about it yourself.

Btw, they don't belong there since Libya is not a member of NATO nor did they attack a NATO country. But I doubt those little legal matters will bother anyone who supports Imperial occupations.

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. Where's the outrage from the UN? ....... oh, yeah, the UN is doing the killing.

the whole bloody mess will unravel & then what?

[Distant Observer]

33. Long-distance killing is always better -- that's the lesson NATO taught their bloodthirsty "rebels"

That's why they are first launching waves of long-range missiles at the city from 2 miles out
before going in for the bloody clean-up

[Leopolds Ghost]

12. All this is just depressing n/t

[countryjake]

14. The NTC claimed there was a ceasefire this weekend...

starting Friday, then I read that on Sat. a guy from the Intl. Red Cross tried to take his team to Sirte's Ibn Sina hospital, the supplies there are gone and people are dying on the operating table due to random power outages, but while they were in there the NTC fired rockets, some landing inside the hospital compound, and there was a raft of machine-gun and anti-tank fire going on within range of the besieged hospital, both sides totally ignoring any calls for humanitarian assistance.

These poor people are trapped in there, not even knowing which way to turn...try to escape Sirte with their families, at the risk of being caught in the crossfire, or hunker down for the duration and risk being murdered by the NTC as a Qaddafi-loyalist (or blown to bits by a NATO missile).

Too bad this world has no org. that intervenes on true humanitarian emergencies.

[ellisonz]

15. Coordination is bad among the rebels. They don't have enough communications equipment...

...to effectively exercise command and control.

[Distant Observer]

22. Are you joking?? All reports are that British and French special forces are with them providing

advanced logistics and communications.

[countryjake]

25. Do you really believe that? MSM reports say NTC is directly firing on that Hospital...

because they are claiming Qaddafi-loyalists have a bunker there.

So which is it...poor coordination and no communication or the deliberate siege and targeting of Sirte's Ibn Sina Hospital?

[ellisonz]

26. Because Qaddafi's men have respected the sanctity of schools and hospitals throughout the war?

Good one.

There are many rebel units. It would reason that not all have radios etc.

[countryjake]

28. Sorry, Qaddafi hasn't done a thing IN MY NAME...NATO & the USA have! n/t.

!

[Distant Observer]

29. Before the West spawned civil war the Gaddafi opposition had a bloody reputation

Now they have proved to all that the reputation was deserved.

[bvar22]

32. "It would reason that..."

Nice.
At least you are admitting you are just making up stuff
in a vain attempt to counter reports from the ground in Libya.



Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ellisonz]

40. I've watched enough footage and media coverage of the revolution...

...to have some assessment. Look at what is going on Tripoli right now. There is no central military command and control. It's not a modern army. It's "mad max" as the media has emphasized time and again.

But coordination among them, as well as logistical support from their higher commands and foreign supporters, has not developed. In eastern Libya, the rebel authorities talk of making a national army; here in the west, the state of official disorganization makes the prospects for such a force unlikely in the near term.

Interviews with dozens of rebels present a portrait of a guerrilla force that acts less like a coherent structure than a network of pickup fighting clubs.

http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/20110721/NEWS0107/107210403

I will not be responding any further.

[bvar22]

41. Oh I see.

You saw it on American TV.
Well, Case Closed.

[joshcryer]

49. WSWS is using MSM reports to make their propagandistic lying case. They just leave out...

...MSM reports that do not fit their narrative.

If you were to only read WSWS's report you would not have a full picture of Sirte. Consider for example that Misrata was under siege for 3 months. If you look at the WSWS site for their https://www.google.com/search?q=wsws+misrata&oq=site:wsws.org+misrata">coverage of the siege of Misrata, you'll find reports about NATO hitting rebels in Misrata, about factions having issues and whatnot, but you won't find a damn thing about how that city was without water and electricity for months, how that city was hit by cluster munitions, how Gaddafi attempted to mine the port of Misrata, and how indiscriminate shelling went on for months. Not one word. How can anyone consider that unbiased reporting?

If you want unbiased reporting feel free to read the Libyan Revolution thread, as all credible reports, MSM and otherwise, are posted. We really like Al Jazeera (who has been thrown under the bus because of their coverage of Libya, actually).

WSWS propagandistic lies are not usually posted, however.

[Distant Observer]

64. Hail to the wise one. The MSM is soo NOT CONNECTED to conflidt: BBC, AJE, CNN, AFP. Just OWNED by

countries carrying out the regime change. No real connection. Totally unbiased.

Their reporters are in Sirte and Bani Walid, just like they were inside Benghazi and Misrata, I am sure.

[bvar22]

16. K&R for wider exposure.

People need to know what we are really doing in Libya.
The Propaganda Blitz was/is TOTAL in the USA,
much worse than the buildup to the Iraq Invasion.
At least for Iraq, they DID acknowledge the dissent.
There was ZERO coverage of those who questioned our rush into WAR in Libya.

The Untold Story in Libya:
How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising

http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-we%E2%80%99re-celebrating-qaddafi%E2%80%99s-end-can-we-get-a-little-truth/

(^excellent in-depth article^)



The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html

The plan for Libya is the same as Iraq.
Libya will be turned into a NeoLiberal Free Market HELL,
with the Global Banks, The Global Resource Extraction Corporations, and the IMF OWNING Every-Fucking-Thing.

Gaddafi, warts & all, was the main road block to the IMF Raping & Privatizing the continent of Africa.
Gaddafi was using profits from the Libyan Oil to undercut the Predatory "Lenders" at the IMF.
So, he had to be removed.
The legitimate uprisings of the Arab Spring provided them with the perfect cover to go to Libya and TAKE what they wanted.

Man, THAT was some "No Fly Zone" Obama laid on their asses.
You have to LOVE the "Humanitarian Bombs" shit.
ONLY a FOOL would buy THAT bullshit.
"Humanitarian" BOMBS!... laughable if not so fucking sad.

They didn't even bother to change the Marketing Hype.
They just scratched out "Saddam", and penciled in "Gaddafi".
Saddam Gaddafi is an EVIL DICTATOR who kills his own People!!!

If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!

It is hard to believe that so many (especially here) bought that bullshit
so soon after Iraq. Goering was correct about how easy it is to lead a country into WAR.





You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[countryjake]

18. Thank you for those enlightening links...

seems the pro-war peeps would rather that nobody read stuff like this. The propaganda continues to be perpetrated.

[Mudoria]

80. We read it

Just propaganda that agrees with your personal viewpoint. We read propaganda from our viewpoint. Maybe you could find a donation site for Moammar.

[inna]

42. Thank you, Bvar, always.

[sabrina 1]

88. The most cynical part was how they piggy-backed their

brutal takeover of Libya onto the Arab Spring, fooling a lot of people, me eg, at least for a short time. But it became quickly clear that this was no 'people's revolution' within about one month as reports of atrocities were coming from Humban Rights Orgs by the so-called 'rebels' against Black Africans. Reports of lynchings and rapes, from early on. I could no longer support it at that point, realizing we had been fooled.

And yes, it is sad that even after Iraq, Afghanistan, and everything else we've been lied to about, not to mention the dictators we still support, that anyone could continue to support these brutal wars and theft of resources under cover of 'humanitarianism'. It become obvious the those on twitter who claimed at first to be rebels, suddenly disappeared after it was revealed that many of them were not even in Libya and once the mission had been accomplished.

[bvar22]

17. Kicking for wider exposure. Now UP to +2

There ARE people at DU who don't want the Official story challenged.
I want EVERYBODY to have this information,
and THEM make up their own minds.


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity with The 99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[blindpig]

19. Hey, they're protecting civilians....

just like 'Nam.

k&r

[Distant Observer]

20. Obama Plan: support killing all libyan opponents now to WIN THE FUTURE

I am ashamed of every month I worked and every dollar I donated to the Obama campaign.

He can't be so ignorant to not see the bloody logic of this civil war.

The blood of libya is on his hands.

[bvar22]

21. They are trying to hide behind NATO,

...but the SAME Global Banks that rule the USA and the IMF also rule Western Europe.
Without the full support of the USA, NATO does NOT engage in Libya.
The ultimate responsibility lies with the Commander-in-Chief, USA.

...Making the WORLD safe for the Very Richest to Extract the MOST Profit Possible
without regard to Life, Liberty, or Democracy!



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity with The 99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Distant Observer]

47. This is a bloody stain on the Obama admin

[countryjake]

30. A siege on Sirte's Ibn Sina Hospital...

Today:

http://news.yahoo.com/humanitarian-fears-grow-over-libya-sirte-battle-033234849.html



"Commanders of forces loyal to the ruling National Transitional Council (NTC) are talking of a "final" push to take the town. Backed by NATO warplanes, they have been bombarding pro-Gaddafi positions inside Sirte."


"Concerns about the humanitarian crisis in Sirte have focused on the Ibn Sina hospital. Medical workers who fled Sirte said patients were dying on the operating table because there was no oxygen and no fuel for the hospital's generators.

"It's a disaster," a doctor who gave her name as Nada told Reuters as she fled the city on Tuesday. "They are hitting the hospital. Two kids have died there. There is random shooting at the hospital from both sides."


"A military spokesman for the interim government told a television channel that Gaddafi's son Mutassim was hiding in the hospital."

[Duende azul]

34. This outcome was predictable.

This is so sad.

Shame on those who pushed for this war.

[malaise]

36. Forget Libya - Amanda Knox is free

:sarcasm:

[Cali_Democrat]

39. NATO engaged in war crimes

Well this is new :sarcasm:

[Distant Observer]

45. Need to keep up with rampant TORTURE being executed on the ground

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2047526

[SidDithers]

46. wsws LOL...nt

Sid

[Distant Observer]

51. Guess NYTimes is also just unreliable propaganda as well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2047526

[joshcryer]

48. WSWS lies, not one mention of Gaddafi forces firing on civilians and preventing them from fleeing.

Not one mention of a hospital besieged by Gaddafi forces as doctors flee.

Disgusting lying propaganda. :puke:

[Distant Observer]

50. Well you should know propaganda! Thousands have died needlessly under your Western propaganda

You have witnessed the results.

In 40 year or strife and counter-revolutionary conflict, Libya has not seen the bloodshed and atrocity spawned by the Western propaganda and bombing intervention that you have supported diligently.

[joshcryer]

52. WSWS is using western reports. They don't have someone on the ground, they quote Washington Post...

...for fucks sake.

Difference is, between WSWS and me, I report on everything that Google news scrapes, whereas WSWS (and many others here) only selectively report on negative reports. That's a fact. A lie of omission is still a lie.

[Distant Observer]

54. Wow Western reports, Google, THE TRUTH! Wow. Most MSM are OWNED by those who wanted Gaddafi gone!

How unbiased!:sarcasm:

[joshcryer]

56. Gaddafi PAID western PR firms to spread his PROPAGANDA.

The point is WSWS is not some sort of beacon of truth, they selectively report what they want to report. Kinda like people who signed up post-revolution in Libya here only to spread pro-Gaddafi propaganda.

[Distant Observer]

58. Wow! Governments of enemy countries have PR contracts! Western Imperialists don't do that

Fact is that there is overwhelming evidence that Western PR firms and special forces psyopts have been orchestrating the "rebel" propaganda operation from the beginning.

[SidDithers]

67. Oh Snap...

:thumbsup:

Sid

[Upton]

55. Shit, man..

your Libyan threads are nothing but pro war propaganda..

[joshcryer]

57. No they're not. Look at them.

Read them, carefully, you'll see all of the negative reports posted, too. I started covering Libya to support the revolutionaries, the people on the ground fighting for their freedom.

The problem that people don't like is that there are dozens of more positive reports about Libya than there are negative reports. No one cares if women take to the streets in Tripoli when Libya was at the bottom of women rights indexes. No one cares if people paint the streets with anti-Gaddafi and pro-democracy paintings.

But oh boy if someone even so much as leaves a scratch on a gaddafi loyalist, there will be threads about it!

[Distant Observer]

60. Thanks for the diligent recording of reports from pro-war outlets -- both positive and negative

[Upton]

61. Yeah, they are..

from what I've seen, they're like approximately 99% pro war, while the few negative posts are usually made by those outside your little circle. Meanwhile, you meander about the board doing your best to discount anything not favorable to your pro interventionist position..

And speaking of women, whatever happened to Catherina? Seems like she started out in favor of this action, but eventually saw the light..

[joshcryer]

63. Would you have said the same...

...of Catherina's threads when they started? Because the rebels were at war after the first two weeks. She stopped when NATO got involved, not before then. In fact, everyone was cheering them for taking up arms and fighting Gaddafi, and heading straight for Tripoli. I don't cheer war. I am not pro-war. I am pro-self defense, and pro-self determination.

I'm sorry you think that it is pro-war but I do not find it as such, it is an information thread. I would argue at least half of the posts don't even mention war, but rather focus on the revolution and the rebuilding and the unification of Libya.

[mainer]

66. You're right about one thing

"In fact, everyone was cheering them for taking up arms and fighting Gaddafi, and heading straight for Tripoli."

Catherina's threads were all about cheering the rebels. I went onto those Libya threads to offer some dissenting thoughts about the downside of a rebel victory, and was labeled a subversive and accused of trying to disrupt the wonderful revolution threads. Catherina told me I was dead to her.

So at least you finally admit that everyone on those threads was cheering for war. The few of us who didn't were told to shut up.

[ellisonz]

75. Gaddafi is a war mongerer and a mass murderer.

I suggest you consult the record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#Foreign_affairs

He sent troops to fight for Idi Amin and financed the Red Terror in Ethiopia.

It is a reasonable estimate that Gaddafi has the blood of at least a million human beings on his hands.

:(

[inna]

76. "reasonable estimate" - actually, it is a thoroughy ludicrous estimate and

a completely unsupported, wildly outlandish claim. nice work.


not to mention that the issue at hand has absolutely nothing to do with Gaddafi.

[joshcryer]

83. Gaddafi was Africa's imperialist, the biggest one, in fact.

He did more post-Colonial invasions than anyone else. Castro even fits on that list. Ironically when Castro did it called himself an internationalist.

[joshcryer]

82. Go back to when I took over the threads. I didn't cheer it then and I don't cheer war now.

There were times I was hoping the rebels would cede to Gaddafi's offer of a cease fire but he was never honest about a cease fire, he called them several times and his men continued advancing and besieging cities. I was a fool for thinking that Gaddafi would cede power like Ben Ali or Mubarak.

What's interesting to me is the level of support for the Libyan revolutionaries. We all classified it as an uprising, we all thought that they were trying to rid themselves of a tyrant, but then Gaddafi's propaganda minions started posting everywhere on the internet, particularly on conspiracy sites. Everything from it's a CIA con job to it's Al-Queada was posited, but if you were actually following the events it made little sense, and was nothing more than a veiled form of islamaphobia. It didn't help that NATO got involved as opposed to the Arab League and African Union. The Arab League had its own interests in mind and if they helped a peoples rising up against their leader, the authoritarian regimes in the Arab world could also be usurped in the same manner. Don't get me started about the infinitely corrupt African Union. So that didn't happen because we live on a really shitty planet.

Catherina did a complete 180 and that's why I started the threads. I too was called everything to an imperialist to a war propagandist (it is not ironic that the same was done here). Truth be told I would've rather been ambivalent about the Libyan revolution, but it was just so utterly demoralizing that DU would support Tunisia and Egypt and not Libya. I couldn't allow that to be the case. The Libyan people must know that some American progressives do support them. Maybe not all, but a chunk of us do. The last thing you want is a people completely disaffected by liberals because we hate NATO*, and to get a false impression that we don't care. That's one reason I was glad Sean Penn went there to show his solidarity, and I hope more activists show up and show it, because you don't want them to be pushed away from liberal ideals.

*I've stated repeatedly and consistently that I hope the Libya affair affects NATO poorly, either by dissolving it, or by making it so that other states are taking more control and NATO isn't just a US only venture. The latter appears to be the case, as more countries are taking a leading role in NATO as opposed to the US, and NATO is being effectively neutered.

[countryjake]

68. Black Africans indiscriminately executed by the NTC...

are NOT "scratches" on a Qaddafi loyalist! You have trashed those DU threads with the same sort of indifference as those "rebels" are murdering innocent migrant workers.

Mr. Cryer, I am sorry to seem so harsh, but I haven't signed up here "since the revolution" as you accuse others of doing. I joined DU long ago, mainly because of the Invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq; the blatant moves on the part of Western Imperialism throughout my lifetime are what has always concerned me.

I watched the long hard struggle of true revolutionaries against the Shah in Iran fall in a bloody defeat, as our government covertly intervened, hired the Shah's own security forces and selectively "eliminated" the actual leftist rebels, effectively allowing the religious extremists to usurp that revolution and gain control of Iran.

What I have observed and read on this struggle being waged in Libya, from the very beginning, has appeared very similar to me..."mistaken" NATO strikes that have killed actual rebels, early on; Western agents directing movements in the battle for Misrata with "stray" pockets of anti-Qaddafi fighters fired on and destroyed by the NTC...have you ever stopped to wonder if there even are any actual original revolutionaries left alive?

Please try not to be so naive as to think that the USA ever steps into a conflict when there is no profit to be made. This is not any serious condemnation of you, personally, but directed at any who still believe that this "Libyan Revolution" is anything but just another attempt to "free" the biggest Oil Reserves in Africa.

[court jester]

59. +33

[Cali_Democrat]

65. No kidding!

The moment someone tries to bring an alternate view to those threads, they are immediately pounced on!

[inna]

70. lol, no kidding

[TBF]

53. Anything to get Africa's resources. This is absolutely disgusting. nt

[Distant Observer]

62. Operation Libya is now no different than other IMPERIALIST interventions -- kill all oppositon is MO

[Prometheus Bound]

71. Sirte residents turn anger on Libya's new rulers

Sirte residents turn anger on Libya's new rulers
Wed Oct 5, 2011 5:31am EDT

SIRTE, Libya, Oct 5 (Reuters) - Many residents of Sirte, Muammar Gaddafi's birth-place, blame Libya's new rulers and their Western allies for the death and destruction unleashed on their city by weeks of fighting.

Most are reluctant to talk openly about their allegiances, for fear they will be branded as members of a pro-Gaddafi fifth column. Yet their anger and bitterness is clear.

....."Let them look for Muammar, but do not kill 50,000 people to change the regime," said Fatouri. "It is not worth it that thousands die in Sirte for Muammar. This is what saddens us."

..."They (NTC forces) used to start their day with bombing us, and finish it with bombing us... The kids used to hear the shelling like music," said another resident standing nearby.

..."What did America and NATO bring to us? Did they bring apricots?" he demanded. "No, they brought us the shelling and the strikes. They terrorised our kids."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/05/libya-sirte-anger-idUSL5E7L51GZ20111005

[Karmadillo]

72. K&R

nt

[Prometheus Bound]

73. Why is NATO bombing us, ask Sirte escapees in Libya

Why is NATO bombing us, ask Sirte escapees in Libya
October 6, 2011
AFP
Fine words from NATO and Libyan new regime fighters about protecting civilians mean little to the furious residents of Sirte, whose homes are destroyed and relatives killed in the battle to capture Muammar Gaddafi's hometown.

"Why is NATO bombing us?" asked Faraj Mussa, whose blue minivan was carrying his family of eight jammed in beside mattresses and suitcases as they fled the city this week.

"We were afraid to come out because they (Gaddafi loyalists) told us that the NTC (National Transitional Council) would cut our throats. But we couldn't stay because of the bombing - we had to take the risk," he said.

Salem Hamees, leaving with his extended family, said: "Our house was hit by a bomb. It destroyed three rooms. We were lucky because we were in the other rooms. We don't know where it came from. The NATO bombing is scary. It's all scary. There is no difference between their bombs," he said.

.....But many among the thousands of Sirte residents who managed to escape said the biggest danger was not Gaddafi loyalists but the bombs that drop from the sky and the ones the NTC fighters lob into their Mediterranean port city.

International aid workers also say that NATO bombing is sometimes doing the opposite of what it is supposed to do in the city that was home to around 100,000 people before the Libyan revolution kicked off in February.

When asked if NATO was fulfilling its mission to protect civilians, one aid worker, who asked not to be named because he was not authorised to speak publicly, replied: "It wouldn't seem so." "There's a lot of indiscriminate fire," he said, adding that many of the Sirte residents and doctors he had spoken to had complained of the deadly results of NATO airstrikes.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/world/africa/why-nato-bombing-us-ask-sirte-escapees-libya-753

[Prometheus Bound]

74. Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group

Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group
Tuesday 04 October 2011
by Our Foreign Desk

A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.

Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.

Militiamen aligned to the National Transitional Council have been laying siege to the town for weeks as well-armed supporters of the former regime refuse to raise the white flag.

Residents report that the intensity of the ongoing bombing and rocket attacks by Nato-backed militias has turned the town into a "living hell," and the Red Cross offered a similar assessment.

.....But the team said that it had met "civil society representatives," who reported dire shortages of drinking water, food supplies - in particular baby food - and hygiene items.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/110273

[inna]

79. I found this one striking - " Sirte civilians accuse NATO of genocide "

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sirte-civilians-accuse-nato-of-genocide/story-e6frg6so-1226147923376



BTW - if anyone wants to start a "daily thread" in protest of imperialist intervention in Libya (or anywhere, for that matter), I'm all for it and would like to participate. I think it's long overdue and would be a great communal effort.

[Distant Observer]

77. The French, who killed 1.5 mil in Algeria, are allied with NTC to kill all opponents

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/nato-libya-bombing-will-continue-2366368.html

French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said the air strikes will not stop until all remaining pockets of resistance are suppressed and the new government asks for them to end.

[Prometheus Bound]

81. Interim government troops loot and burn Abu Hadi

NTC fighters loot Gaddafi tribe
06 October 2011, Thursday / REUTERS/AP, BRUSSESLS

Looting spree

After capturing the hamlet of Abu Hadi, a center for Gaddafi’s tribe, revolutionary fighters have gone on a vengeance spree, looting and burning homes and making off with gold, furniture and even automobiles. Other fighters are trying to persuade them to stop and have sought to protect the tribesmen of the ousted leader. As a result, the rampage in Abu Hadi, a suburb of Gaddafi’s home city of Sirte, has underscored a geographical split among the forces loyal to Libya’s new interim government.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-259073-nato-sees-no-immediate-end-to-libya-bombardment-ntc-fighters-loot-gaddafi-tribe.html

[KoKo]

84. It's terrible what's going on over there...If Bush/Cheney were doing it this place would be on fire!

I can't bear to read what we are doing. The Drones the Killing and the Lying about it all... Lies and Lies and more Lies!

[sabrina 1]

87. I agree. And now we have people who opposed these kinds of

blatant, lying policies when Bush was president, actually supporting them. To think we thought that getting rid of Bush would make a difference, would bring 'change'! I've never been more disillusioned in my life. At least we expected it of Bush.

[sabrina 1]

85. Anyone who ever believed that the imperial Colonialists were there

for 'humanitarian purposes' has not been watching their murderous occupations of Afghanistan and elsewhere. Either that or they had the delusional thought that while they are murdering innocent people in other places, they would not do so in Libya.

Why are they still there? What business does NATO have in a country that did not attack any of their member countries nor is Libya a member of NATO?

Are the supporters of this massacre still claiming they are there to protect civilians?

[Prometheus Bound]

89. No evidence the hospital they shelled for days was a command-and-control centre

Sirte hospital crammed with the dazed and the dead
RORY MULHOLLAND SIRTE, LIBYA - Oct 09 2011 19:24

...."It was a holocaust, not a hospital," said Dr Nabil Lamine as he fought his way through the crowd.

...."We have to bring them all down because of the days of shelling" that preceded the capture of the Ibn Sina Hospital by National Transitional Council (NTC) fighters, he said.

He picked his way through shattered glass and turned right into the intensive care unit where two semi-naked men lay amid the stench of excrement in a room strewn with rubbish and broken medical equipment.

One needed brain surgery and the other had to have a leg amputated, said Lamine as artillery fire rocked the building from the fighting nearby as NTC forces tried to push Gaddafi loyalists back towards the city centre.

....In the weeks before the hospital fell there were repeated reports that Gaddafi forces were using it as a command centre but there was no sign of such a centre on Sunday.

The archives room in the basement was instead full of Filipina, Indian and Bangladeshi nurses who had been working at the hospital and living in apartment blocks in the compound.

"Nobody went to work after October 2 because of the shelling. They were firing from five in the morning until it got dark," said Maria Cristina Cruz from Manila, who has worked in Libya for 19 years.
http://mg.co.za/article/2011-10-09-sirte-hospital-crammed-with-the-dazed-and-dead/

[Prometheus Bound]

90. Canada's Globe and Mail published this story yesterday, but later removed it from its website.

The minders must be at work. I have to say the warmongers have done a rather masterful propaganda job.

Google

In Sirte's hospital, shells fall as patients plead for help
Globe and Mail - rory mulholland - ‎21 hours ago‎
Triumphant fighters bearing Kalashnikovs marched up and down shouting “Allahu akbar” as dazed and frightened patients in Sirte's main hospital lay crammed into a ground floor corridor. “It was a holocaust, not a hospital,” Dr. Nabil Lamine said as he ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/article2196154.ece