Without leadership and a focused set of goals, OWS will flame out bigtime.

[RBInMaine]

Even with leadership and real goals, protest movements often take years to have much if any real policy impact. (It generally makes more sense to organize to go see congress members, call them, email them, etc.) Look at the Vietnam protests. Yes, there was some impact, but it took years and was quite minimal in terms of actual policy impact.

The TeaBaggers had corporate backing and became a focused political movement with an over-arching goal: ELECT FAR RIGHT REPUBLICANS TO OFFICE. And they had some success.

If OWS simply remains some kind of directionless amoeba, then buh-bye sooner than later. It needs leadership and focus. It needs to channel the anger and frustration into real political action. It needs a clearer direction and message. It needs organization. If it had this, it could become a formidable political force, especially in terms of re-setting the populist narrative in America. Here are suggestions for goals:

1) Clarify and solidify the message: "Wall Street and the wealthy who are supposed to be creating jobs with their years of tax breaks are not doing so and are doing very well while the middle class is getting battered. This is immoral and unpatriotic. It is not what the country is supposed to be all about. We need to change it, NOW !"

2) Elect Democrats.

3) Defeat Republicans.

4) Pass the Jobs Bill.

5) Make the rich pay their fair share of taxes again while maintaining relief for the middle class.

6) Enfore Wall St./Banking/Consumer Protection reform laws bigtime.


This would be a good start. There is much more that could be done, but can't bite off too much at first. Make no mistake, it'll die pretty soon without real organization, goals, and leadership. If it gets those, it could end up dwarfing the Tea Party.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Glad you got it all figured out.

But I think the goals of OWS, though broad, are pretty clear already. I'm not worried.

[RBInMaine]

6. Where's the organized political action? What impact could it have on real policy change? Tell me.

Look at your history. Any movement that had real policy impact (suffrage, civil rights, labor) had real organization, leadership, and goals.
So tell me, how does a disorganized amoeba of a movement actually ACCOMPLISH political policy change?

[Ken Burch]

26. So you're saying that OWS should give up everything that makes it distinctive.

Why?

Don't you see that the old, centralized political models don't work anymore? That change can only come through work from below, under the control of the grassroots?

[RBInMaine]

28. Again, please explain how they plan to enact their ideas into law?

[MNBrewer]

33. By electing Blue Dogs???

:rofl:

[Ken Burch]

36. Yeah, he probably does.

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

35. By building massive pressure for it from below

It's the "when the people lead, the leaders will follow" model.

The "leader" we have now has shown that "leadership" on the old model really doesn't work anymore.

OWS would be irrelevant and hopelessly corrupt if it just worked for Obama's re-election.

You'd probably even oppose them working for progressive candidates in the primaries against the Blue Dog sure losers the DCCC is still going to recruit.

The situation is changing, my friend. Only from below, only through rejecting the old models, can we break the constraints we find ourselves in.

[RBInMaine]

49. First, the Blue Dog thing is hyperbole. Next, do you actually think the marching and chanting is

going to make real legal change happen in Congress, especially if Republicans remain in power? Please. I ask you again, how is it going to translate into real political clout and enacting new laws?

[MNBrewer]

51. It's not hyperbole in the least

And about as much change if business-as-usual Democrats regain power in Congress.

[Ken Burch]

54. No, the Blue Dog thing isn't.

Especially since, next fall, you'll be demanding that everyone here support every Dem candidate, even the ones who are more like the 'Pugs than different.

How can OWS be of any value if it gives up its independence and reduces itself to the Obama program?

You're asking OWS to become irrelevant. Why on Earth would you want that?

Nobody expected the Civil Rights movement to totally subordinate itself to the 1964 Johnson campaign.

And the antiwar movement couldn't have embraced Hubert Humphrey(at least not before he made his slight break with LBJ on the war at the end of September, 1968). For every dove to back Humphrey from the start would have been an abandonment of any hope of getting the war ended.

[Luminous Animal]

69. They are actually creating a community interupted by marching and chanting.

[Luminous Animal]

67. And all of those took decades of community education and commitment and none

of them arose out the head of any one leader fully born.

[FrodosPet]

121. By destroying the concept of "Leaders"

And by replacing it with the rule of the collective, the dictatorship of the proletariat, will the voice of the voiceless finally be heard. The idea of individual leaders, of cults of personality, is vanishing. In the modernage of true democracy , no one's voice should be greater than or less than any other.

Everyone has a unique perspective. It is time for ALL those perspectives to be respected.

[Lucian]

2. OWS has clear goals.

Why do people say they don't? How can you not understand them???

[TomClash]

3. Three letters

MSM

[bbinacan]

5. Well what exactly are they?

the folks in Sacramento are waiting on a message team to tell them. This is embarrassing.

[Le Taz Hot]

19. Funny, the people in Fresno

got out there and marched just fine. We don't need leaders but apparently Sacramento does? Pity. I'd be embarrassed too if I were Sacramento. :P :evilgrin:

[bbinacan]

43. yep. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

74. Sacramento should be forming their own General Assembly and begin bringing

in some people who can help educate them on alternatives to our current system. The NYC General Assembly has been educating themselves, discussing and bringing in guests who can help them bend their minds outside of decades worth of propaganda.

[RBInMaine]

8. Tell me exactly what they are and how they propose to get them enacted into policy.

[MNBrewer]

82. The Democratic Party needs to come around to the side of OWS, not the other way around.

[Ken Burch]

88. Just started a thread on that theme, over here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2078435

[lunatica]

130. And are you insisting that the message be in 15 words or less?

[Lorien]

136. Only the willfully obtuse "don't know what they are"

Policy: Restore Glass-Steagall, re-regulate Wall St. and the banks, overturn Citizens United and enact TRUE campaign finance and election reform. If a candidate can't run an effective campaign on a very limited budget, then he or she can't run a town, State or Nation on one either. Money does not equal free speech.

GOT IT?

[Lorien]

135. The simple minded among us want a sound bite

sorry kids, but just because our grievances and goals don't fit on a bumper sticker doesn't mean that they aren't clear.

[MNBrewer]

4. OWS has no interest in electing Democrats

Democrats are part of the problem.

[RBInMaine]

13. Then what the hell are you doing on DEMOCRATIC Underground? Also, without political clout, it is

NOTHING. So please, get into reality.

[Ken Burch]

22. You're calling for the OWS people to just give up and settle

for being a wing of the Obama re-election campaign-something that would be a complete waste of their time.

And "clout" isn't worth having to make deals with the devils(it was never worth, for example, pledging to the MIC to keep the Middle East Wars going for most of Obama's first term).

You...Don't...Get it.

[TomClash]

37. +1

:thumbsup: :hi:

[woo me with science]

111. The Third Way sees big crowds now.

You are going to see some ludicrous contortions now to try to claim these as their people and misrepresent the OWS goals.

:eyes:

[Le Taz Hot]

25. For the 3,259,506,503,597 time

"We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole."

We'll let you know if we elect you DU Hall Monitor.

[SidDithers]

39. People always forget this part though...

"Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

How is "Democrats are part of the problem." consistent with that?

Sid

[MNBrewer]

57. SO I should Lie and say Democrats AREN'T part of the problem?

You know full well Democrats are part of the problem.

[Luminous Animal]

76. #OWS as an organization is not a member of DU.

[MNBrewer]

31. You equate political clout with being a good soldier in the Democratic party

Democrats are clearly part of the problem. DO you deny this?

[RBInMaine]

46. Ok, so what is your alternative on this planet? How will OWS actually ENACT change through real

legislation. Marching and chanting is one thing. But this is a nation of laws. How will they make new national laws?

[Ken Burch]

52. OWS isn't Congress. It can't, by itself, enact anything

And I might remind you that one of the major reasons OWS exists is that OUR party hasn't "enact(ed) change through real legislation".

You are basically saying that OWS should be perfectly happy with the crumbs Obama gave us all.

[MNBrewer]

53. Tahrir Square

[justiceischeap]

90. If you don't realize that both parties are part of the problem

you've got bigger problems than worrying about who should or shouldn't be on DU. Our political system is BROKEN and that includes both Dems and Repubs. When a corporation has personhood, that's a problem. When the House of Reps rather spend two years making the President look bad than work for the people, that's a problem. When the President bends over backwards to get said Repubs to like him, that's a problem. The money that pours into our politics is a huge problem (and it happens on both sides).

[tblue]

101. Stop trying to shove a round peg into a square hole.

You can be on this site without swallowing the party whole, can't you? Really.

To become part and parcel of the Democratic party will absolutely kill the entire OWS movement. The party has FAILED those people by being handmaiden to Wall Street. And yes, I can still be on this site and say that. The party doesn't own this site either.

[Ken Burch]

15. True. RBI, are you willing to work to CHANGE this party

to make it the kind of organization that the people who have joined OWS could trust?

If not, you have no right to ask ANYTHING of them.

[myrna minx]

16. And they don't want some sort of authoritarian leadership ala the baggers

to tell them what to think or what to do. I think they're doing just fine with their organic roots and caucus. They're defiantly making the powers that be sweat and it's wonderful.

[RBInMaine]

27. No one is saying "authoritarian." But no leadership means rudderless chanting and marching to no

avail.

[Luminous Animal]

78. They have already accomplished much. They have captured the attention and

the excitement of freedom activists all over the world. They are forging global contacts to embolden global action.

[woo me with science]

113. They should definitely put Timothy Geithner in charge of it!

:rofl:

[rapturedbyrobots]

140. you really don't get it AT ALL

“The social ship is adrift, and the problem is not that we lack a captain. It so happens that the rudder itself has been stolen, and it is not going to turn up anywhere. There are those who are devoted to imagining that the rudder still exists and they fight for its possession. There are those who are seeking the rudder, certain that it must have been left somewhere. And there are those who make of an island, not a refuge for self-satisfaction but a ship for finding another island and another and another...”

-Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos

[madokie]

7. The goal seem pretty clear to me

Stop the rape of whats left of the middle class.
Leader, Hell they've got thousands of leaders and they are the right kind. Good ole hard working every day Americans. We can speak for ourselves each of us.

[RBInMaine]

21. And how are they actually going to stop that rape?

[madokie]

47. By getting in the streets as they are

You don't know how this works do you? Us old hippies know how to protest and we know that results are measured in years not days. It was us old hippies who stopped the Vietnam war whether you want to think so or not. Methinks maybe you're not old enough to remember or never learned how it works, either way you're premise is miles off. Really no way to have a good discussion concerning this with the perceived notions you already have.
Have fun :hi:

[RBInMaine]

55. The Vietnam War raged for years in spite of the protests. Indeed, Nixon escalated the war in spite

of them. And don't worry, I'm not as old as you but am plenty old enough. I ask again, how does OWS plan to gain real electoral clout and enact new national laws? Do you really think a mere protest movement, when Capital Hill is crawling with corporate lobbyists, when we have this kind of Supreme Court and this kind of House of Representatives, is going to just cave in because of some marching and chanting? The 60's are over my friend, and even then the protests had minimal impact in the big picture as war raged on for more than ten years.

[Ken Burch]

59. Your kind of politics doesn't work for progressive change anymore

If it did, the first two years of the Obama administration would have mattered, and we wouldn't still be fighting in Afghanistan and still have troops in Iraq.

[Luminous Animal]

83. Yes it did but a lot changed in the process. The movements went well beyond the Viet Nam

war. Off shoots and sister orgs include the environmental movement, the expansion of social welfare, the women's movement, the disability rights movement, citizen oversight of police, sunshine laws...

People met, they discussed, and they took action.

It is very narrow minded to look only at the Viet Nam war when defining the changes that 60s radicalization was able to engender.

[Ken Burch]

56. +10 quintrillizillion(whether that's a number or not)

Let's hear it for the old hippies and the crazy punk kids!

It's the people who DON'T fit in that end up making the changes, in the end.

[madokie]

62. Exactly,

some can't see that though

[mmonk]

9. I"ll let Keith give you the details of what they stated they stood for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q

[girl gone mad]

10. lol.

[Ken Burch]

11. OWS will flame out bigtime

If it's reduced to just being part of the Democratic campaign.

The protests are about the pro-corporate policies that, sickeningly, DEMOCRATIC presidents since 1976 have had as much to do with as Republicans.

It would be different if one of the goals you listed was "Make the Democratic Party an anti-corporate, anti-war, pro-dignity party".

[RBInMaine]

24. Tell me, how do they propose to actually ENACT their ideas into policy?

[Ken Burch]

29. by creating the pressure for change from below

By building support for alternatives to the status quo at the grassroots level that is so massive that the "leaders" either have to enact it or get out of the way.

That's the only way to make change in the future.

The old models don't work anymore. And, in case you hadn't noticed it, the Tea Party is politically extinct now.

[RBInMaine]

34. But how does that pressure from below create actual new laws which will make a difference?

[Ken Burch]

40. How does electing Blue Dogs do that?

And creating the pressure from below was what got the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts through Congress. In 1961, there was no serious interest in either among any important figures in Congress. Four years later, thanks to massive organizing which caused a massive change in consciousness, they were passed.

If they'd done it your way and left it at politely lobbying at the Capitol, we'd still have segregated rest rooms all over the damn country.

People can create their own power. Popular, direct democracy is happening every night at OWS and the other occupations.

Are you TRYING to be Dylan's "Mr. Jones"?

[myrna minx]

50. This is why the powers that be are terrified of this movement.

It's not sponsored by Pepsi and Verizon and it doesn't have some sort of authoritarian leader telling everyone what to think. The ripple effect throughout the country is genius. This allows people to come together locally and create caucuses in order to organize to enact like minded changes. This has the old structure trembling because it's not beholden to the bloated lumbering top down party structure that's awash with corporate cash.

[Ken Burch]

64. Ask every African American in this country how it works

It was only the pressure from below that forced Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act. If they'd done it YOUR way and totally coordinated with the Dems and had no independence, Jim Crow would still be the law of the land.

And may I remind you, we TRIED it your way from 2008 to 2010. It failed. It proved that reducing our efforts to working that way will ALWAYS fail.

Politics is too serious to leave to the insiders. So is life. And leaving it to the insiders is what you are asking us to do.

[Ken Burch]

44. Doing it your way didn't get anything important enacted

between 2009 and 2011. Everything that did pass doing it your way was too watered-down to mean anything. And Obama made it clear that he wasn't ever going to try to fix the watered-down stuff at any point in his admin-and then abandoned the Obama movement entirely.

You're asking people to forget everything they've learned.

[Le Taz Hot]

12. Electing Democrats?????

TELL me you're kidding because if you're not, you truly have no clue that the Democrats are 1/2 of the political problem with Republicans being the other 1/2. And these aren't Teabaggers, they don't need a "leader" and they certainly don't need "leadership" in the form of political parties that do nothing without their corporate overlords' approval. Democrats??? :eyes:

[RBInMaine]

18. Why are you on DEMOCRATIC Underground? Kindly find political reality. They can be a fringe movement

or they can work to have a real electoral impact. And a third party idea is a joke. So please, get real.

[Le Taz Hot]

32. See Post 25

If the Admins don't want me on their board, they are free to invite me to leave. Until then, I intend to speak my mind and if you don't like what I have to say, put me on "ignore." Many of the DU Party Loyalists have done the same -- it keeps them from entertaining anything akin to independent thought.

[mazzarro]

45. Why do you ask others about what they are doing at DU?

May I remind you to read "About Democratic Underground, LLC"

... snip
We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.
... snip

DU is not just for democrats only, neither is it affiliated with the Democratic Party - FYI.

[Bonobo]

112. I assume he is on to push for traditional liberal ideas. Why ate YOU on? nt

[Oilwellian]

120. Must you be so...

obtuse? :eyes:

[rucky]

14. I predict the opposite

it will thrive as long as it avoids leaders and goals and other easy targets.

[ChandlerJr]

17. From what I've seen and heard reported I don't think OWS

will be co-opted by either mainstream political party. Leaders will emerge as the "part-time" protesters need to leave do to financial and other commitments such as school and even work. That'll be when the real test will come, what charismatic leaders will squeeze to the front of the parade.

It's really what happened in the 60's and the results weren't always pretty.

[Kingofalldems]

105. Oh I get it. You're claiming they are all hippies.

And your description of the sixties is false.

[tblue]

20. I'm glad it's not a party movement.

That's the beauty of it.

[RBInMaine]

30. Wisconsin IS a party movement, and they got rid of two RePukes. How does this movement plan to enact

their ideas into real policy so they can create real change?

[MNBrewer]

38. THat's because there was a clear contrast in WI between Republicans and Democrats

Democrats for labor, republicans against.

In this case many Democrats rightfully need to be lumped in with Republicans.

[RBInMaine]

42. Hyperbole. And, how does OWS plan to ENACT legislation that will make their goals happen?

[Ken Burch]

48. That's a useless question

You're just repeating it in the service of your campaign to make OWS give up its independence and be nothing but the street wing of the Obama campaign.

If OWS did what you want...it would cease to matter. It would be irrelevant. And all its supporters would vanish overnight, because there'd be no reason for them to stay.

OWS can only grow if it ISN'T tied to a party. Don't you see that?

Then again, you're probably still pissed off that Cindy Sheehan didn't give up everything she stood for and endorse Hillary.

[RBInMaine]

61. No, actually I would like you to tell me how the marching and chanting is going make a real diff-

erence. You see, there is thing we have called a national government. And people are elected to serve in that government. Now, you see, there are these things called electoral campaigns. And whomever receives the most votes wins, and then they get to serve in office. And then if there are enough others on their side, they get to be the majority and pass laws. You see, we have this Constitution thing and all. That's the system. That's how it works. We are a nation of laws. You don't make laws just by marching and chanting. It feels good. It sounds good. I'm all for it. But if you don't win elections, you can't make laws, and all the marching and chanting won't really mean all that much, no matter how good it feels and sounds. Getting clearer for you? So tell, how does OWS plan to enact the policies they want to see enacted?

[Ken Burch]

70. Enough already with the condescension. Don't act like I'm a four-year-old

Face it, YOUR kind of politics doesn't work anymore. The fist two years of Obama proves that for all time. The only chance we have now is to build, first, a culture of resistance and second, a culture of liberation.

Why do you want us to limit ourselves to a dead form of organizing?

And it's not worth winning elections if you have to promise that you'll be more like the other candidate than different in order to do it. It's not worth it if you have to promise to keep the wars going. It's not worth it if you have to promise to put bailing out the banks before putting people back to work. It's not worth it if you have to pledge to support the freaking death penalty.

Your form of politics is the definition of insanity. And there's no reason we should limit ourselves to that.

It always ends in backroom compromises which water any change down to nothing.

[Ken Burch]

77. And it's not JUST marching and chanting

There's also the creation of the General Assemblies at these occupations, which are a new form of direct democracy that, simply by being created, can show people all over the country that there are other ways of running life.

By creating those assemblies, OWS is encouraging people to free their minds(which is a necessary part of any movement for positive radical change). This is how you make the kind of broad changes we need...by showing people that we can take the power themselves, that we can reshape the country and the culture and life itself.

It's not JUST about lobbying Congress-it's about getting rid of the existing structures, which are hopelessly rigged against the people, and replacing them with new ones that allow the kinds of change we all need to occur.

[woo me with science]

117. Drudge Report headline right now: "'Occupy Atlanta' in strange group chant, ritual."

Apparently discomfort over the "chanting" is a new corporate talking point.

:eyes:

[MNBrewer]

79. Is it becoming any clearer that the two parties are just two sides of the same coin?

Heads or tails, it's the same coin.

[tblue]

100. I 100% agree, Ken.

I am really glad they are not just a bunch of Democrats out there. No. And there's no way to make them that anyway. The party can signal support and do what the people want, but the DNC does not own this movement and sure as hell hasn't earned it.

I'm with you, Ken.

[girl gone mad]

89. Watch and learn.

You may lack vision, we do not.

[white_wolf]

66. WI failed because they channeled their energy into the democratic party.

Had they continued to occupy the capitol, had they focused on building the ties with the labor movement needed to create and sustain a general strike they would have won the struggle. Instead they channeled their energy into electoral politics and lost.

[MNBrewer]

81. Excellent observation!

[DJ13]

23. So who are the leaders of the TP, and what specifically is their goals?

[RBInMaine]

41. Are you serious? A conglomerate of right wing think tanks and corporate backed groups such as

Americans for Prosperity, Club for Growth, etc. funded a national organization of TeaParty groups, got them media attention, paid for the busses, etc. etc. etc. I'm certainly not suggesting going the corporate route by any means, but that is how THEY did it. The RePukes aligned with them, and they became a formidable block in 2010 working on campaigns, etc. Their goals?: Elect more pukes, defeat dems, stop anything Obama and Dems try to do (or Dems at lower levels of government), and enact far right legislation that is pro-corporate and pro-rich on the economic side and right wing on the social side.

[Ken Burch]

58. Now, y'see, you've just shown us why it's pointless for OWS to try to imitate the Tea Party

The Tea Party was invented by bazillionaires, and funded by them.

People with that kind of money aren't going to back genuine POSITIVE change. And unlike the Tea Party, OWS is a REAL mass movement.

It's pointless for OWS to even try to imitate the teabaggers. What OWS has going is totally different from that and always will be.

You have got to accept that there's more than one model for effective organizing.

[RBInMaine]

63. I never said it should carbon copy it. I said it should not. I did say it needed some leadership and

organization. Didn't say it had to do it the same way the TeaPukes do it. Do it the way suffrage, civil rights, or labor did it, perhaps. ?

[MNBrewer]

68. I suppose the leadership you want the to embrace is the Obama re-election campaign?

[Ken Burch]

75. Why are you so terrified of trying anything new, anything different?

You KNOW perfectly well the old centralized leader-based organizational methods don't work anymore, at least not for people on the humane side of politics. They only work for the forces of ugliness.

[Modern_Matthew]

60. The abolition of Capitalism is a good, broad goal to set...

No more moderate bullshit. It's time for the revolutionary left to steer this ship.

[hack89]

80. That will certainly guarantee failure.

I for one would not support the abolition of capitalism - I doubt many democrat would either.

[white_wolf]

92. It is the only way to create lasting change.

Reformism is a failure, because reformism maintains the power of the capitalists and over time they will undo the reforms and we will be right back where we started.

[hack89]

94. And just how do you abolish capitalism

without society disintegrating? How does it happen in an orderly manner such that people don't get hurt? How are you so certain that you can replace one economic system with another and ensure that food, power, health care are not disrupted?

You are not going to get a majority of people to follow you into the unknown - what if many people feel like I do and refuse to support the abolition of capitalism?

[white_wolf]

96. Did society disintegrate when feudalism was abolished and replaced with capitalism?

No it did not. Society underwent massive change, but they endured. There is no reason to think the transition to socialism will destroy society when the transition from feudalism to capitalism did not. Secondly, socialism will not and cannot happen until the majority support it and that day may be closer than any of us realize. Things are getting worse and people are looking for solutions. Socialism provides those solutions.

[hack89]

97. And how many generations did that transition take?

If you are talking about socialism in a hundred years then I guess there is plenty of time to iron out the problems.

[Ken Burch]

106. Nothing progressive is going to happen from working exclusively WITHIN

our existing system. The system is overwhelmingly rigged to prevent change.

Given that, why shouldn't we try something else?

[hack89]

107. Because many benefit from the present system?

Not everyone has it bad right now

[Ken Burch]

116. Those that benefit aren't interested in changing things for the better.

They showed that in the first two years of Obama's term.

[hack89]

122. But that number is a sizable portion of the population.

that is an insurmountable obstacle to Socialism.

[Ken Burch]

123. The number that are losing or fear they will lose is larger

that is an insurmountable case for NOT defending the status quo.

If the "winners" want to hang on, they COULD do something creative like proposing to play fair and not insist on always being dominant in the set-up. But we both know they won't do anything of the sort, unless they're forced to.

Look at how the concept of "capitalism with a human face" basically died out after 1989.

[hack89]

127. I really disagree - I guess time will tell. nt

[Luminous Animal]

65. You haven't a clue what is being created here.

Here is one clue... it is not about electoral politics

Two, it is not about tax breaks for businesses in hopes that they will create jobs

Three, it is not solely about the middle-class

Four, it is not about tweaking the system

Five, yes it could take years

[WillyT]

71. That Will Come In One Form Or Another With Time... Right Now, It's A Nationwide Teach-In...

First you attract and inform the masses... organization and action comes later.

A teach-in is similar to a general educational forum on any complicated issue, usually an issue involving current political affairs. The main difference between a teach-in and a seminar is the refusal to limit the discussion to a specific frame of time or an academic scope of the topic. Teach-ins are meant to be practical, participatory, and oriented toward action. While they include experts lecturing on the area of their expertise, discussion and questions from the audience are welcome. "Teach ins" were popularized during the U.S. government's involvement in Vietnam. As an example, a teach-in at the University of Michigan in May 1965 began with a discussion of the Vietnam war draft and ended with the logistics of a takeover of the University.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach-in

:shrug:

[Luminous Animal]

85. Exactly.

[joshcryer]

72. Bullshit.

[Warren Stupidity]

73. We really don't give a shit, but go ahead and lecture us.

[moondust]

84. No thanks.

[markpkessinger]

86. Do you think Rosa Parks . . .

. . . had a working draft of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 in her purse when she decided one day that she preferred the view from the front of the bus?

Do you think the workers who rose up against their overlords in the early part of the last century had a clearly defined set of policy initiatives or organizational plans for the creation of a National Labor Relations Board or of an Occupational Safety and Health Administration?

It is precisely the inchoate nature of OWS that marks it as an authentic populist movement as opposed to some particular special interest group. And that's exactly why the establishment is trying so hard to discredit them.

The refinement of specific proposals or goals and the creation of a leadership structure will come in due time. And time will tell whether the OWS protests will have any long-term, meaningful impact. In the meantime, I'll take any one OWS protester who is out there at least trying to do something over any 1000 more "organized" Democrats who still naively believe any real reform can be accomplished through legislative processes alone.

[Ken Burch]

125. and Howard Zinn pointed out that in the 1930's

most of the radical movements were grassroots movements from below that LOST strength and effectiveness every time a political party took them over and bent them to its own ends.

[markpkessinger]

126. Excellent observation -- Thanks!

I had never heard that observation of Zinn's - thanks for sharing it!

[L. Coyote]

87. ROFLMAO! = Yeah, that's why there are now 1,015 Occupy Together communities

http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/

1015 Occupy Together communities

Occupy Together Meetups Everywhere

990 cities

This is OCCUPY TOGETHER's hub for all of the events
springing up across the country in solidarity with Occupy Wall St.

See what's going on in your community or get something started!
http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/

[whosinpower]

91. The OWS protest continues to grow

Because thus far it has not chosen political sides. This protest is not about democrats vs republicans. This protest is about the erosion of the american dream. It is about the erosion of the middle class while the elite's wealth continue to bulge. It is about the corporate class taking over the political discussion and driving policy, while silencing the 99 percent.

Both sides are guilty of this. Both sides pander to Wall Street, and Wall Street pays them well to do their bidding.

The tea party was partially correct in protesting the TARP relief for big banks - but their message got co-opted by republicans and libertarians. The tea party never would of come into existance had the politicians done their mandated job - to govern for ALL americans.

OWS is a result of the same broken political will to do what is best for all americans. Democrat's are just as guilty. I heard Barack Obama state that what Wall street did was not illegal - just immoral. Excuse me? Selling fraudulent crap mortgage backed securities is not illegal? And the proof that they KNEW it was crap is that they bet against them because they knew they would fail. Nobody wants to admit it. Because to do so would require Wall Street to take a hair cut - and thus far, the FED, Treasury and Wall street are working ever so hard to slide it under the table while the world twists and turns with crap debt exploding all over the planet. Because the elites want the status quo to remain the same. And democrats sit at that table too. It is sad, but true. And when money is required for elections - then who better to pander to than Wall Street?

There is something very wrong with this picture. I hope OWS does not take political sides. To do so would erode their strength and purpose. Here is the thing - RB - it is not up to OWS to come up with solutions. That is what the politicians are supposed to do. And if they do so - then OWS would go away....and if they do not....then it will grow, and grow and grow.

OWS requires a political solution - but cannot impose one - that is up to the elected few who are thus far, negligant in their duty. OWS asks that people wake up to what is happening around them - aside from what the media says, and what the pundists say, and what the politicians say.

[BOG PERSON]

93. if OWS relegated itself to becoming a democratic party front group

that would be sort of a ... what do you call it ... a faustian bargain. they would gain nothing and lose everything.

[philly_bob]

95. You miss the significance of a genuine leaderless people's movement (nt)

[Fire Walk With Me]

98. Watch.

[MrSlayer]

99. Electing Democrats does no good as evidenced by the 2009 Congress.

We need to be electing democratic socialists. The Democratic party is nearly as compromised as the Republican party. Corporate whores on both sides of the aisle.

[tblue]

103. Amen, bro.

Sad but true.

[MNBrewer]

104. "Then what the hell are you doing on DEMOCRATIC Underground?"

:sarcasm:

[bengalherder]

102. You really need to lurk moar. n/t

[Zorra]

108. We tried electing Democrats in 2008. We got them elected,

and they ignored or paid lip service to almost all of the main issues that we elected them to address, and got voted out of office in a landslide because of their failure to address critical issues.

I'm still going to vote Democrat.

But OWS is more progressively constructive than the Democratic Party at this time, and I'm way more into OWS than I am the Democratic Party because of this.

[loyalsister]

109. It has real potential

But, unfortunately I agree.
One thing about the tea party that really sucks is that they have been accomplishing what they set out to do. They got some of their people elected and they are making it impossible for Obama to govern as a Democrat (Norquist's stated alternative to republican rule if a Dem is in the WH)

I think claiming "the system doesn't work" is a cop-out that gives in to the tea party. They hijacked government. Why not focus on taking it back?

WI did a good job. They got a stronger Democratic delegation. Declaring a feasible missions\goal that people yet uninvolved respond to would go a long way toward making some real positive changes.

[white_wolf]

114. WI failed.

It failed when the people decided to channel their energy into electoral politics and the democratic party. They should have focused on building the movement, building ties with labor, they should have made planes for a sustained general strike. That would have won the battle.

[loyalsister]

115. I don't think so

They have more Democratic votes in their state government. I think it is unfair to dismiss the work people in WI put into making that happen.

I get the impression that nothing would be good enough. Sort of like grumpy teenagers - perpetually dissatisfied.

[white_wolf]

118. What good did the recall elections do?

Walker's law is still in place and now the WI movement is a lot weaker than it was before the elections. Change will not come from within the political system anymore. Things have changed, it must come from outside it.

[loyalsister]

119. I'm disappointed in Obama

The WI legislature didn't undo the damage overnight. Obviously American democracy has failed entirely.
I think there must be a better argument for changes to be found amid the mess we are in.

[woo me with science]

110. Bwahahahahahah

Same song, different day.

:eyes:

[RegieRocker]

124. I take it you haven't gone to a OWS rally?

This could go a thousand different ways.

[seabeyond]

128. i was going to come on htis thread and point out your errors, but i see so many others did, so

you are wrong, for a number of reasons

[lunatica]

129. Their message is crystal clear to me

And they don't belong to a party. They are the 99%. That's just people who want to be free to live a life of their choosing, not a party.

You obviously don't get it.

[Edweird]

131. You are free to start your own movement. OWS is doing just without your help - in fact

whole "elect Democrats" thing is part of what lead us to where we are now.

[MadHound]

132. Trying to coopt a grassroots movement for the Democratic party

God, you are so transparent, so pathetic.

[Paladin]

133. You Need To Study How Political Movements Get Started In The U.S.

Your "suggestions for goals" may have been well-intended, but they read like the pointless annual goal-setting process we have to go through at the big corporation where I work. Political movements don't work like that, thank God. There's nothing unusual about a period of unorganized anger and venting, prior to a more structured framework evolving. I believe that OWS will work, because the amount of frustration it has tapped into will make it happen---and if it doesn't, it will signify that we're through as a country.....

[bettyellen]

134. "Enfore Wall St./Banking/Consumer Protection reform laws bigtime"?!?!?! GLAD YOU"RE NOT LEADING IT!!

even if that sentence was spelled right- there are not enough loophole free laws out there. they need to be passed.... and I don;t see it happening. Not enough political will out there on either side. I will hold democrats responsible, and withold support both financial and on the ground to those who have shirked their duties.
This thing has spread to 48- 49 states- and now Great Britain, LOL. Your prediction seems to be wrong. This things now has more coverage than all the huge antiwar marches combined.

[Douglas Carpenter]

137. EXACTLY!! We need to arm them with scripts and talking points on how Obama's policies ARE promoting

responsible reform along with with incentives to facilitate economic growth that does not increase the deficit!!

We need to arm them the scripts that explain all that was accomplished especially during the first two years when Obama was elected by with an overwhelming mandate for change and had overwhelming Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress!!

Maybe the chanting is okay. But we need to make the message of the chants practical. Perhaps we need more chants like this:

REMEMBER ALL THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED DURING THE FIRST TWO YEARS!! WE CAN DO IT AGAIN!!

RESPONSIBLE REFORM THAT DOESN'T STIFLE GROWTH

MORE INCENTIVES FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH NOW!!

REDUCE FICA TAX NOW - TO ENCOURAGE MORE HIRING!

GRADUAL WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN SOON!!

[TBF]

138. ...

[librechik]

139. the leaders of OWS are sitting in theWhite House & Congress

OWS is just trying to get their attention, since their practice is to ignore us