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SomethingFishy Donating Member (552 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:46 PM
Original message
"I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion!"
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 02:47 PM by SomethingFishy
"I want everyone to remember *why* they need us!

"What we need right now is a clear message to the people of this country. This message must be read in every newspaper, heard on every radio, seen on every television... I want *everyone* to *remember*, why they *need* us!"

This is a quote from Chancellor Sutler from V for Vendetta. For some strange reason when I saw the Iran/Mexican Drug Cartel "story" I thought of this scene. :shrug:
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. That scene does pass through the mind in response to current affairs, does it not?
"Alan Moore knows the score." -PWEI
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I thought of Oswald going to Mexico
in the months prior to the JFK coup d'état

:scared:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. JFK did oversee the overthrow of Diem - that was indeed a "coup d' etat" done with his sanction.
But I don't think Oswald had anything to do with that action of the Kennedy administration, so your point eludes the informed among us. :shrug:
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I mean the coup that killed Kennedy
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 03:14 PM by tk2kewl
and he tried to stop the Viet Nam coup
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. There was no "coup" that killed Kennedy, just one deluded, angry young man with a rifle and a chip
on his shoulder.

And far from trying to "stop" the overthrow of Diem, JFK gave his explicit approval that action be taken to remove that leader of a sovereign country. The only thing that shocked him was that he was assassinated, instead of simply whisked out of the country - or at least he pretended to be shocked. Methinks our 35th commander-in-chief wasn't so naive and was playing CYA with that dictabelt recording, but opinions differ.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. i don't want to hijack this thread, but have you read JFK and the Unspeakable?
makes a pretty good case for a coup.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I don't take my history from fictional fairy-tale accounts of the past, however, there is a factual
case for a "coup" that involves nothing to do with "JFK and the Unspeakable," which is such a fairy tale account. The historical case is that JFK signed off on the removal of Diem, which is the definition of a "coup," and then was shocked, or at least acted shocked, when he heard that instead of simply removing him from the country he'd been assassinated. Educate yourself.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. JFK did not order the assassination of Diem.
Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest?



From "The Secret History of the CIA" by Joseph Trento

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodtge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

SOURCE:

“The Secret History of the CIA.” Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.



Details: 'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. have you read the "fairy tale" and examined the documentation given?
:shrug:
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The final order to remove Diem came from
Henry Cabot Lodge, the US ambassador to SVN.

And James Douglass has outlined in painstaking detail with thousands of detailed footnotes the events that lead to the death of Kennedy in "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters."
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The decision to remove Diem came from the 35th president of the United States: Lodge simply
implemented his boss's directive - a directive JFK explicitly signed off on. As for "James Douglass" and his fairy tale book: I don't take my history from the fiction section, so save your keystrokes.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. You don't take you history from the fiction section -
you prefer to make it up as you go along.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. James Douglass and his work are recognized for accuracy in fact and excellence in analysis.
The book, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters was published by the Maryknoll Society. They are universally recognized for quality and scholarship.

Here's what a few who've read the book say:



Prophetic Contingency: Why Jim Douglass’s JFK Book Matters

by Ched Myers
Tikkun Magazine, November/December 2010

EXCERPT...

Douglass is no conspiracy geek. Part of the Catholic theological renaissance that emerged from Vatican II, his incisive interpretations of both politics and religion through the lens of Gandhian satyagraha have for more than forty years inspired and resourced many faith-based peace activists, myself included. His critique of the totalitarian logic of nuclear militarism led Douglass to leave a promising academic and ecclesial career to cofound the Ground Zero Center for Nonviolent Action (www.gzcenter.org) right next to the Trident submarine base in Bangor, Washington.

In the 1990s I admired Douglass's peacemaking efforts in the Balkans but was frankly puzzled (like many in the movement) at his growing preoccupation with researching and writing about the assassinations of Jack and Bobby, Martin and Malcolm. But when I read JFK and the Unspeakable (originally published by Orbis Books in 2008), the first fruits of a decade of labor, I began to fathom the profound depths this mentor is probing on our behalf.

Last year my wife and I visited Jim and Shelley at the Catholic Worker center in Birmingham, Alabama. We toured the ramshackle little house where Jim researches and writes, located beside railroad tracks where, in a previous nonviolent campaign, they tracked the nuclear "White Train." Sitting at one of the many desks overflowing with books and papers, Jim patiently yet passionately explained (yet again) why JFK's life and death matter.

The book argues that Merton's Unspeakable is pre-eminently incarnated in the CIA's doctrine of "plausible deniability," which lies behind half a century of covert operations (not least JFK's murder), and which remains a lethal threat to our democracy. Douglass's greatest contribution to the formidable corpus of JFK literature is his persuasive account of how the president, shaken by the apocalyptic implications of the Cuban Missile Crisis, slowly abandoned his Cold War worldview. Because he subsequently dared to try to end the de facto rule of bipolar politics, endgame militarism, and the National Security establishment, this "peacemaking president could not survive the warmaking State."

CONTINUED...

http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/november2010myers/print



And info from a Jesuit, himself an authority on Scripture:



James W. DOUGLASS, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters.

Maryknoll, NY: Orbis Books, 2008. pp. 544. $30.00. ISBN 978-57075-755-6.
Reviewed by Dennis HAMM, S.J., Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68178

If the title of this book makes you suspect that it is another in a long line of mind-numbing conspiracy scenarios regarding the events of November 22nd 1963 in Dallas, go to your nearest vendor of Orbis books and read the six-page introduction and the 10-page chronology in the early pages of this hefty volume. That will be enough to hook you into reading the rest.

The author is, after all, the James Douglass who gave us The Nonviolent Cross in 1968 and several more thoughtful books since. Douglass’ interest is not first of all the immediate scenario of the events of JFK’s death but Kennedy’s remarkable “turn to peace” during his final months, a turn that made likely, if not inevitable, his being “marked for assassination” (to use Thomas Merton’s phrase). Douglass’ meticulous research illuminates JFK’s remarkable—and little noted—transition from Cold Warrior to proponent of “complete and general disarmament,” a phrase he used in several public addresses to describe his ultimate goal as President.

Drawing upon the research of others, upon recently declassified federal records, and upon his own interviews of witnesses, Douglass provides a detailed narrative of the key events that occasioned Kennedy’s turn to active peacemaking—his refusal to provide military support for the CIA-initiated Bay of Pigs invasion, the Cuban missile crisis, and the growing alienation with his military advisors as he proceeded to secretly explore peacemaking initiatives with both Castro and Khrushchev.

Following the Cuban missile crisis, both JFK and Khrushchev admitted to one another that they were terrified by the prospect of nuclear war. Kennedy began to resist further U.S. military involvement in Vietnam. In July of 1963 U.S. and Soviet negotiators agree on the Limited Test Ban Treaty, outlawing nuclear tests “in the atmosphere, beyond its limits, including outer space, or under water, including territorial waters or high seas.” The Senate approves the treaty, 80 to 19, September 24th.

Having begun his research mainly focused on Kennedy’s turn to peacemaking, and discovering the enormous resistance to those efforts on the part of JFK’s military advisors, and all of this in the light of new information and his own interviews, when Douglass comes to the events immediately surrounding the president’s death, he understands them with fresh eyes. He lays out the results of that research by giving the back-story of a number of eye-witnesses—some familiar, others relatively unknown (in some cases because their stories were official discounted, in other cases because it took years for them to overcome governmental intimidation).

Douglass’ narrative is full of surprises:

    * The extent to which both Khrushchev and JFK had to work against their own generals
    * The fact the Khruschev studied and was moved by Pope John XXIII’s encyclical Pacem in Terris
    * The key role of Norman Cousins in all this
    * The (foiled) attempt on JFK’s life in Chicago just three weeks before the Dallas assassination, entailing a pattern remarkably similar to that of the Dallas event—a set of assassins, a carefully cultivated patsy positioned in a window overlooking the presidential motorcade moving through a dogleg in the route.
    * Strong evidence for the presence and activities of a Lee Oswald look-alike, which accounts for the phenomenon of “too many Oswalds” sighted at certain stages of the narrative
    * The significance of a crucial speech—little noted at the time and less remembered since—that JFK gave as a commencement address at American University in Washington, five months before his death. In it he issues an urgent call for peace— “Not, he insisted, “a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war.” He commits himself to work for “complete and general disarmament.”


CONTINUED...

http://catholicbooksreview.org/2008/douglass.htm



And a bit on James Douglass from a professional filmmaker:



JFK and the Unspeakable

Oliver Stone
Huffington Post
Posted: July 23, 2009 05:05 PM

EXCERPT...

Today, more than 45 years later, profound doubts persist about how President Kennedy was killed and why. My film JFK was a metaphor for all those doubts, suspicions and unanswered questions. Now an extraordinary new book offers the best account I have read of this tragedy and its significance. That book is James Douglass's JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters. It is a book that deserves the attention of all Americans; it is one of those rare books that, by helping us understand our history, has the power to change it.

The subtitle sums up Douglass's purpose: Why He Died and Why it Matters. In his beautifully written and exhaustively researched treatment, Douglass lays out the "motive" for Kennedy's assassination. Simply, he traces a process of steady conversion by Kennedy from his origins as a traditional Cold Warrior to his determination to pull the world back from the edge of destruction.

Many of these steps are well known, such as Kennedy's disillusionment with the CIA after the disastrous Bay of Pigs Invasion, and his refusal to follow the reckless recommendations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis. (This in itself was truly JFK's shining moment in the sun. It is likely that any other president from LBJ on would have followed the path to a general nuclear war.) Then there was the Test Ban Treaty and JFK's remarkable American University Speech where he spoke with empathy and compassion about the Soviet people, recognizing our common humanity, the fact that we all "inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's futures. And we are all mortal."

But many of his steps remain unfamiliar: Kennedy's back-channel dialogue with Khrushchev and their shared pursuit of common ground; his secret opening to dialogue with Fidel Castro (ongoing the very week of his assassination); and his determination to pull out of Vietnam after his probable re-election in 1964.

All of these steps caused him to be regarded as a virtual traitor by elements of the military-intelligence community. These were the forces that planned and carried out his assassination. Kennedy himself said, in 1962, after he read Seven Days in May, which is about a military coup in the United States, that if he had another Bay of Pigs, the same thing could happen to him. Well, he did have another "Bay of Pigs"; he had several. And I think Kennedy prophesied his own death with those words.

CONTINUED...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/oliver-stone/jfk-and-the-unspeakable_b_243924.html



No offense, but I'll take their word over yours.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. yep
Kennedy felt he needed to make a concession to the MIC and make Lodge the ambassador and we paid for it for years
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. AN "Oswald" went to Mexico
Whether it was "the" Oswald is an open question.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. yes
but why Mexico again? that's what makes it weird
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. The CIA's "Oswald" went to Mexico
to approach the Soviet embassy to investigate their willingness to cooperate in the killing of Kennedy or to re-defect to the USSR or both. The CIA was laying a path of clues to purpose Oswald (actually, somepne masquerading as Oswald, who was always a CIA asset) as a "Communist" who wanted to kill JFK.

The problem with all of this was that the real Oswald was always a CIA asset. How could an ex-Marine "defect" to the USSR at the height of the Cold War, marry the niece of a KGB general and return to the US without attracting the attention of the FBI or the CIA? The real Oswald did just this, and the Russians never trusted him for a minute.

Oswald was a plant and a patsy, just as he said he was.
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dtexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. And oblivion is crumbling under our feet.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. You can't forget the fallout from the failure of the Bay of Pigs either
The far right, the Cuban exile community in FLA, and Eisenhower hatched that plan and didn't tell JFK about it until it was too late and almost underway. The fact that JFK did not follow that through to make some more noise toward Castro after that failed attempt did not win him any favors with the generals, the banksters, and the assorted RW minions that have been running things around here for far too long. Take your pick, Kennedy did not want to go along with a lot of their plans.


Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky



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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. May I suggest Norman Mailer's book on Oswald.
This was no lone kook.
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SomethingFishy Donating Member (552 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. How did we get from V to JKF?
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