TROUBLE: Protesters Won't Be Able to Bring Sleeping Bags Back Into Park After Cleanup

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Zuccotti-Park-Wall-Street-Protest-Bloomberg-Kelly-131796173.html

Here we go.

[tblue]

1. THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING!

The city is blowing it.

[TBF]

64. People keep typing that in all caps - but do you really think Bloomberg gives a flying fuck?

nt

[Amonester]

82. F 1% BLOOMBERG!

:hi:

[dana_b]

2. worse:

Camping and/or the erection of tents or other structures;

Lying down on the ground or lying down on benches, sitting areas or walkways, which unreasonably interferes with the use of benches, sitting areas or walkways by others;

The placement of tarps or sleeping bags or other covering on the property;

Storage or placement of personal property on the ground, benches, sitting areas or walkways which unreasonably interferes with the use of such areas by others;

The use of bicycles, skateboards and roller blades;

and Removal of objects from trash receptacles.


No tents??? No lying down?? They are being kicked out.

[grasswire]

3. the only thing left to do is march, then

Shifts of marchers

[me b zola]

11. Nope. The only thing left to do is sit down

Thousands need to be prepared to be arrested. Together. Thousands more need to join them. Shut the city down.

[lapislzi]

16. To paraphrase a line from "Casablanca,"

For every one (arrested), hundreds, thousands, will rise to take their places. Even (NYPD) can't (arrest) that fast. (Victor Laszlo, who knew what he was talking about)

High five me for managing to avoid invoking Godwin's law whilst quoting a film about WWII.

edited for clarity and to erase my own idiocy

[me b zola]

21. :high five:

:fistbump:

[EFerrari]

18. Yep. Don't let them derail. Sit down.

When you think about it, the NYPD cannot stop them unless they're willing to fill up their jails to overflowing.

Don't panic, folks. This won't work.

[me b zola]

26. Mario Savio's words have been ringing in my head since this has begun

And yes, don't panic. I think that the TPTB are waiting for mental exhaustion to set in so occupiers will make a mis-step. Lordy I'm sending positive energy to all of them.

[workinclasszero]

33. Bloomberg just turned back the clock 40 plus years..

"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all." Mario Savio December 2, 1964

And here this country is again. Wow

[Aerows]

57. Geaux Saints :)

Seriously, this is a ridiculous move by the city of NY.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Yep.

x(

[Jon Ace]

4. Good ol' fashioned 1% plan:

Find a loophole and exploit it...

You can't forcibly stop them from protesting, as it is unconstitutional, but you can take away all comforts and force the weak ones to vacate.

Pathetic. Bending the rules for their gain once again.

[durablend]

6. Bloomberg to OWS: "Out you dirty HIPPIES!!!"

"Oh and BACK TO WORK before us 1%ers that you should be kissing the feet of dock you any more!!!!!"

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. It is the owners of the land who are making these rules, not Bloomberg

[coalition_unwilling]

31. The way it works in this country (or is supposed to work) is that

the owners of the land do not make the rules nor does an elected Mayor. Again, since possession is 9/10 of the law, exactly how do the 'private owners' and their lickspittle Bloomberg plan to get the Occupiers to leave peacefully?

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Then you we have absolutely nothing to worry about, right?

Members of OWS can simply go to court and ask for an injunction from being forced to leave privately owned land under the legally sound doctrine of "possession is 9/10 of the law."

[coalition_unwilling]

44. Of course not. But, as Andrew Jackson pointed out many, many

years ago, the courts may state what the law is, but they cannot enforce it. So again, how do the 'private owners' and their lackey Bloomberg plan to get Occupiers to leave peacefully and voluntarily?

There's plenty to worry about and there may be blood shed tomorrow. I hope not.

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. The police will simply arrest those who refuse to leave

[coalition_unwilling]

50. Ah, so much is hidden in your adverb 'simply'. Again, I put the

question to you: should protesters leave because the 'private owners' and their lackey Bloomberg have decreed it?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. Their call, but they lack any legal standing to stay

Whether it is police or Pinkertons, its pretty clear that they will be leaving.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. Which country are you in? Certainly not the USA

This in no way qualifies as adverse possession and there is no requirement to get our demonstrators to leave peacefully.

Consider this...if force is used to remove them from private land the city can quite justifiably say that they did not force the issue...

[markpkessinger]

53. And Bloomberg's girlfriend is a board member of the owner of the property n/t

[originalpckelly]

7. Same thing is happening here in Denver.

Albeit at a smaller scale.

That's exactly what was just announced about our protesters here. Sounds like the 1% have figured out an idea to run with nationwide.

[tk2kewl]

10. Dumb.

There is no quit in OWS. These tactics will only create more momentum.

[Fire Walk With Me]

17. And to demonstrate nationwide that the police are nothing but their lapdogs.

This is part of the bullshit #OWS is here to expose and remove.

[me b zola]

8. Myself and another poster had this called yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2106469

[Freddie Stubbs]

9. When you hold a protest on privately owned land, the owners of the land get to set the rules

[coalition_unwilling]

27. Last time I checked, possession was 9/10 of the law. So exactly

how do the 'private owners' of the land propose to get the Occupiers to vacate peacefully and willingly?

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. A valid property deed trumps 'possession'

If those on the private property do not leave voluntarily, I'm sure that the NYPD are more than capable of clearing out the park.

[coalition_unwilling]

39. I'm sure the NYPD is 'capable' of clearing out the park (although

your word choice is more than a little chilling). The question before us is not whether the NYPD can, but whether they will. If you are following the LiveStream feed, you'll know that organizers have now called for a massive number of bodies tomorrow at 6 a.m. to defend the people's park.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. They don't have to arrest everyone at the same time

Just one busload at a time.

[coalition_unwilling]

47. Again, your word choice is more than a bit troubling. So I guess

you think that the protesters should vacate the park, since the 'private owners' and their lackey Bloomberg have decreed it?

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. Do they have a legal right to be there?

[coalition_unwilling]

52. Of course. Are you saying they do not have a legal right to be

there?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. Our protestors do not have a legal right to be there. Occupying it is civil disobediance

Not saying its right or wrong, but that is where things are at legally.

No more of this possession is 9/10s bullshit...it is totally false

[Freddie Stubbs]

84. Is it publicly owned or privately owned property?

[Kingofalldems]

87. 'Mock and undermine'-----Patrick Howley of American Spectator

[lapislzi]

42. As usual, property rights "trump" human rights.

Pun intended.

The object of civil disobedience is to be...you know...disobedient. Not much gets accomplished by civil obedience.

[Kingofalldems]

56. He doesn't like OWS

[lapislzi]

58. Tough. It's happening whether he likes it or not.

To my mind, civil "obedience" seems pretty damn lame. To make an omelette, you need to break a few eggs.

Above should not be construed as advocating violence of any kind.

[WilliamPitt]

45. You sound pretty happy about that.

Or am I wrong?

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. No, I am just stating the facts. That tends to upset people who try to ignore reality

[lapislzi]

54. Facts they may be. No one's disputing the obligation of the police

to arrest trespassers or disorderly persons. But, the movement is to "occupy." And the occupation will continue, legal or no. That's another reality. The property owner can scream and shout all he wants. More will be arrested. But that's not going to stop the occupation.

[Kingofalldems]

72. I love that story

[EFerrari]

46. But it doesn't suspend the Constitution, sorry.

And if these people lease this property to the City, they have civic responsibilities that go with their tax break.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. What consitutional issues are there with private property owners restricting access?

The legal agreements with the city is not very clear.

[EFerrari]

70. I read about a week ago, that there was an agreement

for the park to be open to the public 24/7. Now, I haven't see the document, but if these owners in essence traded the city a lease for their tax break, that agreement came with caveats that they cannot now disown. #OWS legal will have to get at them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. Interesting NYT discussion of the agreement

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/nyregion/zuccotti-park-is-privately-owned-but-open-to-the-public.html?_r=2

[EFerrari]

76. Thanks. Think Progress put up a link to the last lawyers' letter

to Bloomberg but the link doesn't work. ARgh. The only bit I caught in the subj line was "no basis in law". Let's see if they fix it.

[EFerrari]

78. Fixed. Here is the pdf:

https://dl.dropbox.com/0/view/75u4cx932ty3kyf/New%20Document.pdf

[former9thward]

59. What law school did you go to when they taught this "9/10s" stuff?

Mine did not teach that. Perhaps you can cite exactly where in the law this 9/10s possession is.

[coalition_unwilling]

79. You literalists will friggin' drive me crazy. The " '9/10s' stuff" (to quote you)

is a saying in the vernacular: "Possession is 9/10 of the law." (I believe the genesis for it may have come from the English philosopher John Locke, although I'm not sure.) The Occupiers already possess Zucotti Park and Bloomberg does not.

*******************************************

Possession is nine-tenths of the law is an expression meaning that ownership is easier to maintain if one has possession of something, and much more difficult to enforce if one does not. The expression is also stated as "possession is nine points of the law" which is credited as derived from the Scottish expression "Possession is eleven points in the law, and they say there are but twelve."<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. Total Nonsense

[coalition_unwilling]

80. Please see post #79 - n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. Some of my sensitivities on this are based on problems I have had with trespassers

Non-political, but it still got thorny. Sometimes it helped that they thought I was the groundskeeper and not the owner. Other times it helped that I was armed. Having had to deal with that horseshit, makes me reactive to it when I see it in other places.

Example: Guy comes back to his "campsite" to find his fifth wheel and truck had been removed. Yells at me demanding to know what happened. I remind him of the conversation from the previous day where I told him the owner had put up "Private property" and "trespassing vehicles will be towed" signs and that he intended to enforce them. I tell him that the owner had it towed. He demands to that I put him in contact with the owner immediately. I then point out that there is no cell service. He then rides his ATV off the property towards town. He has no idea I am the owner.

One time a group of 4 rigs thought they were too big to be towed. They were not. Sheriff got called in on that one.

[Cid_B]

77. So if you and 8 friends walk into my house.... it becomes yours?

If the deed is split between me and my wife do you need a total of 18?

Idiocy...

[apocalypsehow]

83. "Last time" you "checked," huh? Gosh, you've been around a while! Since 1938, at least:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Railroad_Co._v._Tompkins

Might want to "check" again, since common law - from whence the "9/10th's" doctrine sprang - is no longer operative in these United States where explicit statutory rules regarding "possession" exist. And guess what? In the state of New York, such statues exist.

[formercia]

13. Bloomberg and Kelly are playing 'Good Cop, Bad Cop."

Bloomberg says OWS can stay, and Kelly kicks them out. Kelly gives Bloomberg cover, so he looks better.

[rdking647]

14. the either move the protest to in front of the charging bull

or block wall street

[Fire Walk With Me]

15. Hey mayor! Why don't you use all those police to arrest the bankers who fucked over so many?

[Gin]

20. this may stop people from sleeping there but the marches will continue

and get bigger...so...(IMO) they (1%)may win the battle but lose the war....the 99% are mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore.

[Hosnon]

19. This could eventually get to a stand-off point. REMAIN NON-VIOLENT!

Let the country and world watch and judge as the government physically (and most likely violently) removes the peaceful protesters.

[workinclasszero]

22. I knew it was a scam

Yup looks like massive non violent civil disobedience is the only option left.

They refuse to let people exercise their their constitutional rights so...

[mmonk]

23. Camp in Central Park.

[EFerrari]

25. Bloomberg doesn't even know the trouble he's asking for.

We'll be calling him George Armstrong Bloomberg before the weekend is over, watch. :)

[csziggy]

86. Too far away and the city has curfews and rules

From the article posted above:

Perhaps most important, from the perspective of a long-term protest like Occupy Wall Street, Zuccotti Park — unlike city-owned parks — is open 24 hours a day. Private parks and plazas that were developed under the original zoning rules governing them are generally open around the clock, while those created under more recent rules may close from dusk to dawn. About half of the privately owned plazas are required to be open 24 hours a day, according to the Department of City Planning.

By contrast, the city’s parks all have curfews: the latest is 1 a.m.; a number close much earlier. All playgrounds close at dusk, and some parks in Queens have curfews as early as 9 p.m. So an encampment like the one at Zuccotti Park would be impossible in a city park, where structures like tents are prohibited without a permit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/nyregion/zuccotti-park-is-privately-owned-but-open-to-the-public.html?_r=2

[SoapBox]

24. Looks like the 1% has had enough...

[durablend]

30. Koch's must've gotten the conference call in

"Take care of it or we'll replace your asses!"

[vets74]

28. K&R

[workinclasszero]

29. From the link:

According to @OccupyWallStNYC, the Twitter handle for the local movement that tweeted a copy of the purported rules, the new requirements forbid:

Camping and/or the erection of tents or other structures;
Lying down on the ground or lying down on benches, sitting areas or walkways, which unreasonably interferes with the use of benches, sitting areas or walkways by others;
The placement of tarps or sleeping bags or other covering on the property;
Storage or placement of personal property on the ground, benches, sitting areas or walkways which unreasonably interferes with the use of such areas by others;

So these rules plus winter on the way means Bloomberg will just freeze the OWS people out. Can't lay down anywhere either. No tarps to protect people from wind, rain or snow, no tents either.

I'm so damn glad we live in the freest gosh darned country in the world! Yeah this is why my Dad fought the nazis in ww2 baby! You betcha! Proud to be an American today boy!:sarcasm::puke:

[EFerrari]

32. They can forbid away but they cannot enforce so they will lose. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. What will block enforcement?

Seriously, this is civil disobedience which means laws are being broken. If not the police, the Pinkertons will clear the spaces

[EFerrari]

71. Numbers could do it. About the only way the NYPD or anyone else

can be assured of clearing the space is to be willing to use lethal force. And then, they lose, too.

[FarCenter]

34. Chase Manhattan Plaza, at Pine and Williams, is another all-masonry urban hardscape

Probably privately owned as well.

It is directly between the Federal Reserve and Wall Street.

But can you ignore the ugly sculpture?

[Renew Deal]

36. This was inevitable.

The question is what is the plan after the cleanup?

[marions ghost]

37. I hope the protestors dont give up because of this

they are inspiring the whole country.

I don't think they will...

[Fire Walk With Me]

38. Rich mayor tells protesters: "Have a Koch and a smile."

[durablend]

40. He'll probably give out coupons for Koch products

As some kind of consolation prize

[marked50]

55. Sounds like Wisconsin

Isn't this what Walker did to protesters in the Capital building during the Wisconsin protests earlier this year?

[Dover]

65. I thought it was a PRIVATE park? Does the mayor have jurisdiction?

They are forcing our hand. Surely they don't expect that people will say, "oh well, I guess we'll just
have to give up". Or maybe they are making these rules to give the NYPD cause to arrest for breaking them.

[TBF]

67. Call Mayor Bloomberg at 212-NEW-YORK ( 212-639-9675 ) -

From the Occupy Boston FB Page this afternoon:

Call Mayor Bloomberg at 212-NEW-YORK ( 212-639-9675 ) now and tell him: "Respect the First Amendment. Don't evict 'Occupy Wall Street.'"

Mayor Mike Bloomberg just said he's going to use the police to effectively end "Occupy Wall Street" Friday morning. In a transparent ploy, new rules were passed out this morning prohibiting tarps, sleeping bags and "lying down"—even as temperatures plummet.

The only way we'll get Mayor Bloomberg to change his plan is massive public pressure. Take a moment now and call 212-NEW-YORK (212-639-9675)

[Zorra]

68. Gosh, guess everyone will just have to sleep in the streets then.

Let's see how that works out for the PTB.

[Jamastiene]

75. I like your thinking.

They should continue in whatever way they can.

[TNLib]

73. I hope OWS stays in the park and doesn't leave.

nt

[Hugabear]

85. It's called CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE for a reason

Hopefully thousands of OWS protestors will descend upon Zuccotti park after the cleanup, complete with their tents and sleeping bags.

Better yet, hopefully enough will refuse to leave.

[BeHereNow]

88. There was an article about a girl who designed a coat that was also a sleeping bag.

I do believe it is time to find her a sponsor to
provide these coats to the people in Liberty Park.
I'm off to search the designer on the Internets...
Can Bloomberg ban coats too?
I think not.
BHN:hi:
Found it!
http://matadornetwork.com/change/student-designs-sleeping-bag-coat-for-homeless/