Are mentally ill people capable of organizing premeditated, multi-step acts of violence?

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/adventures-in-old-age/201101/dont-jump-the-gun-diagnosing-the-arizona-shooter

Don't Jump The Gun On Diagnosing The Arizona Shooter

Are media psychologists more than high-concept "gossipologists"?

Published on January 9, 2011

Oops! Perhaps that was an infelicitous expression, in light of the shooting in Arizona, but less infelicitous than some of the off-the-cuff, armchair diagnoses from my colleague psychologists.

And I'll throw myself on the mercy of the court of public opinion by pointing to the attention-getting quality of "Don't jump the gun." After all, the main point of our media is to grab attention, and rely on psychologists to be useful and willing fools.

When I looked at the alleged shooter's You Tube postings, I predicted to myself that someone is going to publicly diagnoses Jared Loughner as a paranoid schizophrenic, and, sure enough, only hours after the shooting, I read this in Andrew Sullivan's blog, "The Daily Dish," from the Atlantic:

"I'm a licensed psychologist with 20 years experience. I've watched the Jared Loughner Youtube videos. They show evidence of delusions of persecution. Loughner's less than coherent language also suggests a formal thought disorder. While Loughner can't be diagnosed without a full exam conducted in person, there are significant indications in the videos that he suffers from a psychotic disorder. snip

Sure, he or she pays lip service to the idea that an in-person exam is required for a diagnosis, but this doesn't prevent a full-blown diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. As an aside, this leaves out the fact that schizophrenics in general, as well as paranoid schizophrenics in particular are too disorganized to organize premeditated, multi-step acts of violence. In fact, paranoid schizophrenics tend to isolate themselves and more likely become violent when they feel their personal space is being violated. They don't go out looking for trouble.

------------------------------------------

Kind of seems like just the opposite of what our generally accepted definition of someone being mentally ill is. "He didn't know what he was doing." Doesn't it?

See the problem here?

If someone plans and executes a heinous crime and then says "I didn't know what I was doing.", is that a good idea? Opens all kinds of bad doors.

Don

[Richard D]

1. I'm not a psychiatrist . . .

. . . but from what I know about some mental illnesses, it could certainly be possible.

[social_critic]

2. Doesn't matter if you don't believe in the death penalty

I don't believe the death penalty should be used at all. Therefore to me it's not that important. If he's nuts, he has to stay in an asylum for life. If he's sane, he has to get a life sentence. So what's the big deal?

[Schema Thing]

3. No two mentally ill people are the same

exactly as no two people are the same.

[InvisibleTouch]

4. The general consensus seems to be...

...that when someone commits a heinous murder, they are by definition mentally ill, because a "normal" person wouldn't do such a thing. Which is circular reasoning, and I don't know that I buy it. Some people are just evil - whether or not they have other mental issues going.

And as someone pointed out in another thread, none of us are completely and entirely "normal" - everyone has at least a phobia, a quirk, an issue with their parents, trouble maintaining relationships, etc. etc. etc. To use "mental illness" as an excuse for crime has generally struck me as a bit absurd. Even for crimes committed when completely blitzed-out on drugs, that person chose to take the drugs in the first place, and is still responsible for what they did.

[drm604]

7. Paranoid schizophrenia, for example, is completely different from "quirks and phobias".

Have you ever known someone who suffered from schizophrenia? It is not in any way comparable to the little quirks and phobias most people have.

[WillieW]

37. amen to that

[Cetacea]

5. Yes. More than anyone else? Nope.

Tighten the gun laws for everybody.

[cali]

20. I think gun laws should be made on the state level

Vermont has some of the laxest gun laws in the country- and the lowest level of gun violence.

[Cetacea]

24. It doesn't surprise me that Vermont is lowest.

It's a beautiful little country. ;-)

[X_Digger]

6. History would answer yes.

Hinckley's delusion was long running and complex. Berkowitz's terrible spree of murder was complex and required planning.

Mentally ill (even dangerously so) does not mean incapable of making a plan.

However, a majority of the mentally ill are not a danger to themselves or others.

[Edweird]

8. I'd say there's plenty of historical data that shows 'mentally ill' people

making plans and carrying them out.

[kestrel91316]

9. Paranoid schizophrenics may be delusional. Doesn't mean they

can't be highly intelligent.

Buying a gun and ammunition and going to a location with a plan to shoot someone isn't rocket science. Easy for a highly motivated schizophrenic.

Mental illness and mental retardation are NOT the same thing.

[rucky]

15. They can construct elaborate "plots against them"

so it makes sense they could construct an elaborate scheme to fight against it, too. The mind is working, but it's based on a false reality.

[Maine_Nurse]

10. First, "they" are not more dangerous...

than anyone else as a rule. That being said, many people with severe mental illnesses are absolutely capable of constructing extremely complex and multi-factorial delusions, and are also able to construct similarly complex and involved "solutions" to those issues. The fact that the delusions or solutions may or may not even have a basis in reality does nothing to diminish their complexity.

[Jackpine Radical]

14. Actually, one widely used actuarial instrument

for predicting likelihood of violent recidivism actually scores psychosis as a protective factor, and the literature seems to show that psychotics are less prone to violent acts unless they also have a substance abuse problem. Also, many forensic psychologists and psychiatrists say they have never seen violent recidivism in psychotic individuals who were appropriately medicated.

[rug]

11. Of course but it's their state of mind, not the act, that's at issue.

Mens Rea

http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/mens-rea-term.html

Actus Reus

http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/actus-reus-term.html

To be guilty of a crime, both must be proved.

[uppityperson]

12. Of course, depending on the person and the mental illness.

Some are jerks, some are kind caring considerate people. Like all of us.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Yes, indeed they are.

Probably the best ones at that are those diagnosed with Delusional Disorder. Their thought structures can seem completely normal except for the areas pertaining to their delusional system. In forensic psychology, there is considerable ongoing discussion on how to separate true DD cases from people with, for example, weird religious beliefs.

And I recall one rather heinous murder case in which the killer, a diagnosable paranoid schizophrenic, had clearly planned and carried out the murder of his wife after an argument, then fled the scene & got picked up in a town about 400 miles away. The psychologist hired by the defense attorney refused to opine that the killer met the criteria for NGI (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity).

[Riftaxe]

16. Mentally Ill does not equate to stupid

no matter how much you would prefer to view it in that light.

[Cetacea]

21. A short list

List of famous creatives with bi-polar disorder from MentalHealthToday.com:
There are similar lists for depression, schizophrenia, etc.

Actors & Actresses

Ned Beatty
Maurice Bernard, soap opera
Jeremy Brett
Jim Carey
Lisa Nicole Carson
Rosemary Clooney, singer
Lindsay Crosby
Eric Douglas
Robert Downey Jr.
Patty Duke
Carrie Fisher
Connie Francis, singer and actress
Shecky Greene, comedian
Linda Hamilton
Moss Hart, actor, director, playright
Mariette Hartley
Margot Kidder
Vivien Leigh
Kevin McDonald, comedian
Kristy McNichols
Burgess Meredith, actor, director
Spike Milligan, actor, writer
Spike Mulligan, comic actor and writer
Nicola Pagett
Ben Stiller, actor, director, writer
David Strickland
Lili Taylor
Tracy Ullman
Jean-Claude Van Damme
Robin Williams
Jonathon Winters, comedian

Artists

Alvin Alley, dancer, choreogapher
Ludwig Von Beethoven
Tim Burton, artist, director
Francis Ford Coppola, director
George Fredrick Handel, composer
Bill Lichtenstein, producer
Joshua Logan, broadway director, producer
Vincent Van Gogh, painter
Gustav Mahier, composer
Francesco Scavullo, artist, photographer
Robert Schumann, composer
Don Simpson, movie producer
Norman Wexler, screenwriter, playwright

Entrepreneurs

Robert Campeau
Pierre Peladeau
Heinz C. Prechter
Ted Turner, media giant

Financiers

John Mulheren
Murray Pezim

Miscellaneous

Buzz Aldrin, astronaut
Clifford Beers, humanitarian
Garnet Coleman, legislator (Texas)
Larry Flynt, publisher and activist
Kit Gingrich, Newt's mom
Phil Graham, owner of Washington Post
Peter Gregg, team owner and manager, race car driver
Susan Panico (Susan Dime-Meenan), business executive
Sol Wachtier, former New York State Chief Judge

Musicians

Ludwig van Beethoven, composer
Alohe Jean Burke, musician, vocalist
Rosemary Clooney, singer
DMX Earl Simmons, rapper and actor
Ray Davies
Lenny Dee
Gaetano Donizetti, opera singer
Peter Gabriel
Jimi Hendrix
Kristen Hersh (Throwing Muses)
Phyllis Hyman
Jack Irons
Daniel Johnston
Otto Klemperer, musician, conductor
Oscar Levant, pianist, composer, television
Phil Ochs, musician, political activist, poet
John Ogden, composer, musician
Jaco Pastorius
Charley Pride
Mac Rebennack (Dr. John)
Jeannie C. Riley
Alys Robi, vocalist in Canada
Axl Rose
Nick Traina
Del Shannon
Phil Spector, musician and producer
Sting, Gordon Sumner, musician, composer
Tom Waits, musician, composer
Brian Wilson, musician, composer, arranger
Townes Van Zandt, musician, composer

Poets

John Berryman
C.E. Chaffin, writer, poet
Hart Crane
Randall Jarrell
Jane Kenyon
Robert Lowell
Sylvia Plath
Robert Schumann
Delmore Schwartz

Political

Robert Boorstin, special assistant to President Clinton
L. Brent Bozell, political scientist, attorney, writer
Bob Bullock, ex secretary of state, state comptroller and lieutenant governer
Winston Churchill
Kitty Dukasis, former First Lady of Massachusetts
Thomas Eagleton, lawyer, former U.S. Senator
Lynne Rivers, U.S. Congress
Theodore Roosevelt, President of the United States

Scholars

John Strugnell, biblical scholar

Scientists

Karl Paul Link, chemist
Dimitri Mihalas

Sports

Shelley Beattie, bodybuilding, sailing
John Daly, golf
Muffin Spencer-Devlin, pro golf
Ilie Nastase, tennis
Jimmy Piersail, baseball player, Boston Red Sox, sports announcer
Barret Robbins, football
Wyatt Sexton, football
Alonzo Spellman, football
Darryl Strawberry, baseball
Dimitrius Underwood, football
Luther Wright, basketball
Bert Yancey, athlete

TV & Radio

Dick Cavett
Jay Marvin, radio, writer
Jane Pauley

Writers

Louis Althusser, philosopher, writer
Honors de Balzac
Art Buchwald, writer, humorist
Neal Cassady
Patricia Cornwell
Margot Early
Kaye Gibbons
Johann Goethe
Graham Greene
Abbie Hoffman, writer, political activist
Kay Redfield Jamison, writer, psychologist

Monica Kennedy, Gather Author and soon to be published novelist (okay I am not really on their list but should be since I am bipolar and a writer. One day I will be nationally known!)
Peter Nolan Lawrence
Frances Lear, writer, editor, women's rights activist
Rika Lesser, writer, translator
Kate Millet
Robert Munsch
Margo Orum
Edgar Allen Poe
Theodore Roethke
Lori Schiller, writer, educator
Frances Sherwood
Scott Simmie, writer, journalist
August Strindberg
Mark Twain
Joseph Vasquez, writer, movie director
Mark Vonnegut, doctor, writer
Sol Wachtler, writer, judge
Mary Jane Ward
Virginia Woolf

Imagine the world without the works of those on that list. No Tom Sawyer. No Beethoven's Fifth. No Starry Night (No Gather Café – Okay, I know the world could go on without the Gather Café). I guess there are a few things we can be thankful for when it comes to mental illness. I would love for these people to have the creativity without the pain, but as a writer who is also bipolar, I can say it is worth it for me. Mental illness does not equal weakness. In fact, I think most who suffer from it are the strongest people ever. The average person would crumble under such strain. The fact that we seek treatment and continue to contribute to the world is amazing. And look what the world has gotten from people with mental illness!

What's up with the link between mental illness and creativity? I have a bit of an idea, as I have expressed here. Mainly I am thankful for it, for the creativity and insight it has given me, and for the treasures it has brought to the world.

[aikoaiko]

17. It depends on the mental illness, but the answer to your question is " yes its possible".

What he says about most paranoid schizophrenics just wanting to stay clear of all people and most are incapable of organized assassination, but it only takes one to get it together kill people.

Think about all the millions of mentally ill people out there and many without proper treatment and all the millions of weapons out there, and yet mass killings or assassinations are relatively rare.

[cali]

18. yes.

and it's hardly just "media psychologists" suggesting that Loughner has schizophrenia. E. Fuller Torrey, one of the most eminent experts on the disease has said he thinks it's 99% sure that Loughner is a schizophrenic. So have other eminent psychiatrists.

I worked for almost 10 years with people with severe and persistent mental illnesses. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist. I have a Master's in counseling and I was working as an advocate in the Protection & Advocacy System.

I worked with several people who had committed murder and were deemed innocent by reason of insanity. They were committed to the State Hospital. One was a young woman in her thirties who'd been there since her early twenties. She'd killed her boss. When you met her initially, she came off as a polite, well educated, bright woman. It was only upon deeper conversation, that her illness revealed itself. She was neat, took good care of herself, didn't drool or shamble around, fit none of the stereotypes.

Do I know that Loughner is schizophrenic or suffering from some other illness producing psychotic delusions? No, of course not- but I'd bet almost anything on it.

[Historic NY]

19. Oh yes, they become methodical in thought and actions.....

they tend to function in a regimented lifestyle. I found many just don't like disruptions in they way they compartmentalize life.

[WinkyDink]

22. Not an "L&O" fan, are you?!

[Rex]

23. Why can't he be just a little crazy and maybe a lot evil?

I think it all depends on the strengh and overall damage of the mental illness. Some people can be slightly ill, some can be lost to their illness. Just the same some people can be slightly evil and some can hold a great amount of evil inside. Of course all the pundits KNEW he was unstable and that politics had NOTHING to do with this! He was a loner and had no friends (which is bullshit, the newest facts say otherwise) said the experts.

Personally, I think he is very evil and maybe a touch crazy.

[Xithras]

25. "I didn't know what I was doing." is not the standard.

The real legal question is whether his actions were derived from his illness, or simply occurred in spite of them.

A great example that my mom once used: Let's say that your hometown, in the interest of public health, passed a law banning all sneezing in public places. Now, lets say that you unknowingly shook the hand of a man with a cold yesterday, and in the middle of a supermarket you are hit with one giant sneeze. Have you broken the law? On the other hand, lets say that you're messing around with some old boxes at work, inhale some dust, and THEN sneeze while surrounded by your co-workers. Have you broken the law then? Finally, let's say that you want to protest against this new anti-sneezing ordinance, so you walk into a city hall meeting, snort a little pepper, and let out an ear shattering KERCHEW! Does that make you a lawbreaker?

In order: No, Probably, and Yes.

In the first case, you would not be a law breaker because you had no control over the sneeze. It was purely a function of your illness, which you did not choose to suffer. The law cannot convict you of behaviors and actions that are the result of an involuntary illness (it can, of course, place you in a medical facility until the illness passes).

In the second case, you would probably be a law breaker. While the sneeze wasn't voluntary, you did willingly engage in the activities that caused the sneeze and that any normal person would understand made the probability of sneezing highly likely. Your failure to control your sneeze would be the direct result of your involvement in sneeze inducing activities.

In the third case, you have willingly and deliberately violated the sneezing ordinance of your own volition. Should make an interesting 1ST Amendment case though :)

Just in case you didn't figure it out: The first case is an example of mental illness. The second of drug or alcohol induced mental impairment. And the third of a run of the mill criminal. This is an extremely simplistic explanation, but my mom was talking to a 10 year old at the time ;)

[EFerrari]

26. The thing is, you can know what you're doing but

you're brain tells you it's the right thing to do in that context, like that poor lady who drowned her kids.

[cliffordu]

27. Case by case basis.

LIke asking if all blondes are real blonds.

[elocs]

28. My teenage goddaughter who is paranoid schizophrenic when psychotic is capable of premeditated acts.

The main problem is people speculating about the mentally ill who know little or nothing about mental illness.

[Posteritatis]

29. Any discussion of "mentally ill people" which treats the group as a monolith is broken.

And a lot of "generally accepted definitions" regarding mental illness are far worse than broken.

[JackRiddler]

30. They are capable of running corporations and governments, so obviously yes.

Mental illness is too broad a category to serve as a moral excuse for anything. Fully disassociated hallucinatory states are a tiny portion of all states that may qualify genuinely as mental illness. One needs greater specificity.

[Warpy]

31. Generally speaking, mentally ill people are not violent

and most live lives of quiet terror, avoiding other people.

The ones who do turn violent are indeed capable of planning it and carrying out those plans.

Case in point: local well known schizophrenic bought his legal (HIPAA rules keep mental health people from informing the NCIS) gun and went on a 5 person killing spree, including the two cops who were doing a welfare check on him. His other 3 victims were people he was acquainted with, who knows what reasons his insanity came up with for him to kill them.

Please don't think the ability to buy a gun and plan an assassination are marks of a sane mind. Loughner is crazy. If we're lucky, he'll spend the rest of his life in a nice hospital on medication.

[spanone]

32. this man has been 'proven' insane by the media....pretty scary

[goforit]

33. Then you would say Hinkly who shot at Reagan is not schizophrenic.

That was premedited. He was also a good friend of the Bush's.

[goforit]

34. We need to study the psyche of manchurian candidates.

[varkam]

35. Even with psychotic-type mental illness, there are moments of lucidity...

so someone with such a mental illness is certainly capable -- the necessary element of an insanity defense concerns whether or not the defendant could appreciate the wrongfulness of their acts at the time the offense was committed. If the offense was committed during a period of relative lucidity, then even a defendant with full-blown schizophrenia is certainly capable of criminal responsibility.

[fascisthunter]

36. sociopaths... yes