Bush only started 2 wars. Obama started 3, and kept the other 2 going.

[Taverner]

Bush:

Iraq
Afghanistan

Obama:

Libya
Yemen
Uganda

Damn, I am feeling buyers remorse right now...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I'm sorry, but I disagree.

He did not start the ones in Libya, or Yemen, or Uganda.

He provided assistance for the Libyan freedom fighters.

I don't know what he did for the other two.

Links?

[Taverner]

4. Links

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/26/AR2010012604239.html

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44906278/ns/today-today_news/t/obama-sends-us-military-advisers-uganda/

Sorry, I should have included them

[ClarkUSA]

It "was welcomed by human rights advocates who have chronicled the atrocities committed by Mr. Kony"

President Obama said Friday that he had ordered the deployment of 100 armed military advisers to central Africa to help regional forces combat the Lord’s Resistance Army, a notorious renegade group that has terrorized villagers in at least four countries with marauding bands that kill, rape, maim and kidnap with impunity...It is led by Joseph Kony, a self-proclaimed prophet known for ordering village massacres, recruiting prepubescent soldiers, keeping harems of child brides and mutilating opponents.

“For more than two decades, the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) has murdered, raped and kidnapped tens of thousands of men, women and children in central Africa,” Mr. Obama wrote in a letter to Congress announcing the military deployment. “The LRA continues to commit atrocities across the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of Congo and South Sudan that have a disproportionate impact on regional security.”

The decision by Mr. Obama to deploy armed military advisers into the region was welcomed by human rights advocates who have chronicled the atrocities committed by Mr. Kony and his subordinates... Tom Malinowsky, the Washington director of Human Rights Watch, said the group had been advocating for such a deployment. Putting more skilled advisers in the field with the armed forces of these countries would be a significant improvement over the previous level of assistance, he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/world/africa/barack-obama-sending-100-armed-advisers-to-africa-to-help-fight-lords-resistance-army.html?hp

[Taverner]

13. So? There were reports of Iraqi military taking babies out of incubators in Kuwait!

Babies!!!!

We can always find someone to justify a war. It's just like Hermann Goring said:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

[ClarkUSA]

16. "Tom Malinowsky... of Human Rights Watch, said the group had been advocating for such a deployment."

FACTS: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/world/africa/barack-obama-sending-100-armed-advisers-to-africa-to-help-fight-lords-resistance-army.html?hp

You have zero credibility.

[AngkorWot]

18. I have to wonder if these people have even heard of the Lord's Resistance Army.

They're pretty much the worst monsters out there, and have been for decades. It's a shame the US hasn't done something sooner.

[Posteritatis]

33. I wish I was surprised at how clueless people are about them

Sort of relieved I haven't seen "I stand with Joseph Kony!" posts yet (though anyone who's enough of a vile motherfucker to say that would deserve an immediate tombstoning).

[AngkorWot]

40. Oh, like the Gaddhafi supporters?

Yeah, it's only a matter of time.

[Posteritatis]

49. I, ah, disagree strongly with them, but I can almost sorta kinda see their POV

On the other hand, anyone putting themselves willingly in Kony's corner abdicates their position as a human being.

[AngkorWot]

55. It's not that they really support Gaddhafi/Kony

It's that they hate Obama so much they reduce themselves to the absurd.

[polly7]

95. I can't speak for anyone else of course, but it's not a case of

supporting anyone ...... it's not falling for the same crap that led to the decimation of Iraq. Once fooled, twice shy. No matter who is doing it.


The Truth About Libya: NATO Crimes & Mass Media Lies Exposed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hDejIHc1XI&feature=related

Libya Truth (DnB Soundtrack)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJURNC0e6Ek&feature=player_embedded

"With the U.S.-NATO war against Libya entering a new phase, the states involved in waging military aggression and regime change on this oil-producing North African country repeatedly congratulated themselves for overthrowing a sovereign government that was both a member of the United Nations and the African Union. The war to topple the Moammar Gadhafi government in Libya represented the first military mission of the U.S. Africa Command or AFRICOM, which was established in 2008 to specifically advance the strategic interests of both Washington and Wall Street."

NATO’s Libya war opens door to AFRICOM

http://panafricannews.blogspot.com/2011/09/africom-to-further-expand-role-on.html


Africa Command: U.S. Strategic Interests and the Role of the U.S. Military in Africa
Lauren Ploch
Analyst in African Affairs
July 22, 2011

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL34003.pdf

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

53. The government of Uganda, you know, the one that has a death penalty for gays...

Is not so pure...

[eridani]

139. If that's the criterion for the US eliminating a government, then why

--haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia?

[eridani]

140. If that's the criterion for the US eliminating a government, then why

--haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia?

[AverageJoe90]

137. Better to get involved in Uganda than Iran.

Kony may actually be worse than the Islamist mullah freaks running Tehran and we can get involved without the Kremlin bitching too much.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

3. Obama ended the Iraq war, will end Afghanistan on schedule as well, Libya/Yemen/Uganda are not wars.

Damn, am I feeling good about unrec'ing this bullshit OP now...

[Taverner]

5. So it's only a war when the President has an 'R' next to his name? Got it.

[rug]

7. And it ends when a D says it ended.

[ClarkUSA]

11. No, it ends when factual sources report that it has, not when nameless Obama critics say so.

[Taverner]

21. So you're saying we have no troops in Iraq. Got it.

I have some cold hard reality that says otherwise

[ClarkUSA]

73. That's not what I said. You're making another bogus statement.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

23. When are you changing your avatar back?

The Yankees lost.

[ClarkUSA]

8. So it's a war when you and other nameless Obama critics on the internet say it is? Got it.

[Divernan]

32. The Iraq war is NOT ended, with 45,000 US troops still there

and the military pushing Obama, the great compromiser to keep 18,000 there after 2011. And they're not planning on sitting around a campfire singing Kumbayah.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0907/I...

US military commanders, led by Gen. Lloyd Austin III, the senior commander in Iraq, are proposing that up to 18,000 US troops remain in Iraq after the year-end pull-out date. Currently, about 45,000 US troops are in Iraq.

The military request for a higher residual force reflects a conclusion by commanders on the ground that Iraqi security forces are not yet ready to forgo the support and guidance of a substantial US training pres

[RegieRocker]

75. Does that logic apply to Germany, Japan and Korea?

[Ter]

82. No US soldier is dying in Germany, Japan, and Korea

Awful analogy, are we 12?

[RegieRocker]

85. Are you 3? Was a soldier killed in irag in the last month little one?

It's a hostile environment in iraq, just because we have troops there doesn't mean we are at war. Dumb logic.
Oh I had to add this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41868361/ns/world_news-europe/t/us-airmen-shot-dead-airport-germany/
I feel sorry for you.

[Ter]

89. Plenty were killed in the last year in Iraq

Add up the casualties since the so-called end of the combat mission in Iraq. How many have died in Japan, Korea, and Germany in that span of a year or so? Sure, a few die a year from an occasional accident or training crash or even a night out in a local bar or car accident. But nothing compared to Iraq. The crook will change the name of the combat mission there too, and the fools will believe him.

It's a hostile environment because they're being attacked.

[RegieRocker]

93. Not last year last month. Sheesh youngins.

Your logic fails miserably. You can't read? Know how to use links? Don't have time for little kids games.

[Ter]

96. Why limit it to a month?

It's been roughly one year since the president declared an end to combat missions in Iraq. How about the last six months? You need a larger example of data than just a month. Surprised you didn't go a step further and limit it to the last hour. You can manipulate all sorts of date by reducing the time frame.

You are a boy compared to me unless you're ancient. Which is entirely possible since you come across as a stubborn old goat. Or worse yet, part of the sheeple. Face it, your president loves war and this war and all the others (and future wars) will not end until he leaves office.

[Divernan]

138. YES! 3 killed in September in Iraq; 1 so far in October

http://www.google.com/search?q=+US+deaths+Iraq+2011&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

10-10-2011 Wilke, James B. Chief Warrant Officer 38 2nd Battalion, 43rd Air Defense Artillery Regiment, 11th Air Defense Artillery Brigade, 32nd Army Air and Missile Defense Command U.S. Army Texas Ione Non-hostile Doha Qatar
9-29-2011 Mills, Adrian G. Specialist 23 272nd Military Police Company, 519th Military Police Battalion U.S. Army Georgia Newnan Hostile - hostile fire - indirect fire Kirkuk Iraq
9-22-2011 Morales, Andy C. Sergeant 32 143rd Sustainment Command (Expeditionary) U.S. Army Florida Longwood Non-hostile Baghdad Iraq
9-18-2011 Altamirano, Estevan Staff Sergeant 30 1st Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division

[Grown2Hate]

109. Nevermind. I failed to look ahead. But I still agree with the sentiment. NT

[woo me with science]

77. Not to mention mercenary forces, which will be DOUBLED in Iraq after 2011.

http://waronyou.com/topics/u-s-to-double-mercenary-forces-in-iraq-after-2011-military-pullout/

There is always isolated talk of troop drawdowns in this or that place by the administration's shills, who conveniently neglect to mention escalations or new conflicts elsewhere or the replacement of drawn-down troops by mercenaries.

Drawdowns and end to war, my ass. War is PROFIT for these bloodsuckers, and they have no intention of slowing down. Obama already has Panetta out talking about how the Super Congress must cut Social Security and Medicare rather than endangering the military budget. All budget cuts are ALWAYS, conveniently, planned for the future, but they never materialize. We are already hearing sabre rattling on Iran that will "force" them to sustain or even surge military budget levels. Just wait.

This is a corporate neocon administration. Make no mistake about it, the military industrial complex is safe under Obama.

[xiamiam]

145. actually safer than under Bush..at least we were united before in the vileness of it all.nt

[inna]

48. absurd and disgusting.

k&r for the OP, just to counteract the truly "bullshit" post to which i'm responding right now.

[ClarkUSA]

76. Who's truly absurd and disgusting is PUMA Jane "Blackface" Hamsher.

I noticed your avatar. :puke:

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

115. So says someone who is making a laughably false accusation without a shred of proof.

go on with your presumptuous self, sir.

[inna]

130. puke, indeed.

on you.

[inna]

131. typically low and disgusting false accusation.

thank god(dess?) for Jane, and people like her. so there.

[krabigirl]

164. No, your great leader is, but whatever.

[SlimJimmy]

68. Libya/Yemen/Uganda are not wars.

Are people dying, Predators flying? Then it's war to them.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ter]

81. US soldiers are still dying in Iraq

Obama just changed the name to a "peace keeping mission" or something like that. It's on paper only, don't believe his lies.

[ClarkUSA]

117. Your subjective opinion is irrelevant. Combat operations ended with the war last August.

[Ter]

132. So what?

How many US troops died since last August in Iraq?

[Union Scribe]

188. Go tell their families that their deaths were subjective and a matter of opinion.

I dare your comfy ass to go to a VA hospital and spin that bullshit.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[totodeinhere]

119. We still have troops and civilian advisers and contractors in Iraq. And Americans continue to die

there. Has has not ended the Iraq war. However, I do agree with you that Yemen and Uganda are not wars. Not yet anyway.

[GreenPartyVoter]

148. Are all our people out of Iraq? If not, it's not over.

[krabigirl]

163. The Iraq war is over? I can't believe people buy into this crap!

Oh, and that's right, Obama called Libya a "kinetic military action," not a war, so I guess it's not a war then, even if people are dying! give me a frickin break!

[RKP5637]

6. Pakistan might as well be on the list too for all intense proposes. n/t

[Faygo Kid]

9. Iraq towers over all.

Can you seriously equate Iraq with the Uganda operation?

I mean, it's one thing to be opposed to it, but how about a little perspective.

[Taverner]

17. Vietnam started with just a few troops. Operation Hotfoot.

FYI

[Faygo Kid]

66. Yeah, I remember.

When Uganda looks like another Vietnam, call me.

Until then, the debacle in Iraq is clearly more significant.

[AngkorWot]

10. How many troops did we lose in Libya again?

What about Yemen?

[Divernan]

20. You mean how many drones crashed? How many Libyans or Yemeni were killed?

So it's not war if it's by unmanned weapons? What a precious approach.

[AngkorWot]

29. So... no troops then?

I guess it's not much of a war then.

Wait... am I supposed to believe that you or the OP care about Libyan and Ugandan civilians?

Great. Then you'd be supporting the liberation of Libya and the destruction of the LRA.

[Divernan]

38. War by remote control weaponry is still war.

[Taverner]

43. Yep. I'm getting sick of having to explain this.

It's getting old.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

It's like Hightower said. It sucks when we lose. But when we win, and lose, it's worse.

[xiamiam]

146. my view of this thread shows a lot of ignores and at least one who will be added..keep up the good

work..we need you and your outrage..its appreciated and understood

[Nevernose]

124. So it's okay for the US to kill civilians?

We had to destroy the village in order to save it?

For the record, going after the "Lord" in the lord's Army is the first of Obama's military campaigns that I can actually support. It's going after one specific target, has a defined victory, and there is minimal risk to the civilian populace -- not to mention the fact that the LRA makes Qaddafi look like Dennis Kucinich by comparison.

[frylock]

37. how much money did we blow in libya?

how much money do we continue to spend there today?

[AngkorWot]

42. So it's about money to you?

How much money do you think the life of an African is worth?

Any?

[walerosco]

57. Libyans had the highest

standard of living in Africa, trhey had free healthcare, free education and go $50k when they get married. Now how can you convince me it was a good thing to support a minority of the country who could not stand social welfare and instead attack the majority inorder to bring down a regime we did not like.

Look at it this way, what if some other country attacked the United States during the American civil war because Lincoln was going to kill the rebels that started the war? This country will continue its downward spiral until the day we start minding our own business.

[AngkorWot]

60. Libyans had the highest standard living in Africa.

Maybe the ones not about to be massacred by Gaddhafi, sure.

"what if some other country attacked the United States during the American civil war because Lincoln was going to kill the rebels that started the war?"

Are you saying Lincoln is comparable to Gaddhafi?

[walerosco]

65. To answer your question

In this context the answer is YES YES and YES. He is also Libya's FDR. He man united the waring tribes of Libya under one banner and instituted many social programs that would make Bernie Sander blush.

I had some friends whose parents worked in Libya, he went there for holidays every once in a while and he used to tell me how beautiful and nice it was. This was a ray of sunshine in African and Obama and his rebel friends took a big crap in it.

[polly7]

179. In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority.

The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/libya-oil-banks-water-the-united-nations-and-americas-holy-crusade/

"...UN Watch is : "a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations." With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, "UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee." (AJC.)

"Among those involved in UN Watch are Co-Chair, AJC's David A. Harris. Core values: "AJC has long believed that the development of a comprehensive U.S., energy program is essential to the economic and social well-being of our country."

"Ambassador Alfred Moses, former US Ambassador to Romania, Heads UN Watch. His company, Secure Energy's Mission : "Improving US., Energy security", "Securing America's Energy Future." (ix)

"Board Member Ruth Wedgwood is : "an international law expert ... at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) a former member of Donald Rumsfeld's Defence Policy Board (formerly headed by Richard Perle.) Closely associated with: "a number of neo-conservative and rightist pro-Israeli groups - including Freedom House, UN Watch and Benador Associates - a neo-con dominated public relations firm." She "has been a vocal advocate of the war on terror ... strong defender of the Patriot Act and decision to invade Iraq." (x)


"(Felicity Arbuthnot is a journalist specialising in social and environmental issues with special knowledge of Iraq, a country which she has visited thirty times since the 1991 Gulf war."

"Arbuthnot has been nominated for a number of Awards for her coverage of Iraq, including the (EC) Lorenzo Natali Award for Human Rights Journalism, the Millenium Prize for Women; the Courage of Conscience Award and an Amnesty International Media Award.

Arbuthnot is quoted by MP's and academics as having unique insight into Iraq under sanctions. Her articles and broadcasts are used by MP's in Parliamentary questions.

Felicity was a moderator at the World Uranium Weapons conference in october 2003 in Hamburg with a lot of internationally renowned speakers. (http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/speakers.htm).
She also was a speaker on the small World Social Forum in Canada november 2002. (http://www.islandnet.com/~bbcf/new_page_2.htm)

She's a well known journalist (Al Ahram, Jordanian Times, Sunday Herald, Guardian...) and activist against the sanctions.)"
http://www.brussellstribunal.org/Arbuthnot.htm




In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.

Libya as only one of five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussing, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth, Libya's abundance of water and its' Great Man-Made River Project - all of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.

[LiberalAndProud]

88. It depends ... Ivory Coast, not a thin dime. They got no oil,

so no big oil interests to protect.

We pick and choose and it's got nothing at all to do with humanitarian pursuits. It doesn't matter who is President. Big oil sees to it that we all will continue to feed the machine, regardless of who is in the White House.

I am heartsick that so many are just fine with our eternal wars because there is a Democrat in the White House. I find it disgusting.

[Marr]

135. So people who disagree with you can't possibly have a problem with killing, and if they have

a problem with wasted money, then they're heartless. Got it.

Do you really think anyone believes that you give two shits about dead civilians in those countries? The only thing you consistently support is a political celebrity.

[frylock]

176. worth about the same as an unemployed american living on the street

[OnyxCollie]

110. US Military Intervention in Libya Cost At Least $896 Million

US Military Intervention in Libya Cost At Least $896 Million
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/08/us-military-intervention-in-libya-cost-at-least-896-million/

ABC News’ Luis Martinez (@LMartinezABC) reports: The cost of U.S. military intervention in Libya has cost American taxpayers an estimated $896 million through July 31, the Pentagon said today.
The price tag includes the amounts for daily military operations, munitions used in the operation and humanitarian assistance for the Libyan people.

[TheKentuckian]

50. What is it 1450? There need not be a single troop on the ground to have an all out war

We can level countries without a boot within a 1,000 miles. We can kill by the hundreds, thousands, and if so so inclined by the millions.

Those under the rubble with dead husbands, wives, children, friends, and neighbors know that war is upon them.

Your "definition" is meaningless but massacres works too, if that jibes better with your perception.

[totodeinhere]

122. Just because nobody on our side is killed doesn't mean it's not a war.

As long as we are shooting at people by whatever means including drones and killing them then it's war. And if you are implying that it's OK as long as nobody on our side dies while thousands on the other side die, then that is totally disgusting.

[thelordofhell]

12. fail

He didn't start any of the three you mention and he has withdrawn troops in Iraq.

[provis99]

15. troops are still in Iraq, and dying, and he started the war in Libya.

seriously, arguing with you people is more and more like arguing with freepers every day.

[thelordofhell]

22. So he armed the insurgents in Libya??

President Obama did not start the Libyan civil war. And I didn't say all the troops are out of Iraq.

[Taverner]

24. He started American involvement in it.

And who knows what happened in Libya before the uprising - it is confirmed there were CIA on the ground.

[provis99]

25. Libya did not attack Obama; Obama attacked Libya.

can you figure out that Americans are not Libyans? We attacked them; whether they were fighting a civil war is irrelevant.

And your point about the troop withdrawals is obviously irrelevant then, since you ignored the fact that we are still at war in Iraq.

[AngkorWot]

31. "Obama attacked Libya"

To be fair, Obama attacked that massive column of Libyan armor headed straight into Benghazi intent on massacring civilians. That and the air power used to support said column.

"whether they were fighting a civil war is irrelevant."

Just because it's a fact you'd like to ignore, it doesn't make it irrelevant.

[Divernan]

36. Can you BELIEVE they keep saying O ENDED the war in Iraq? w/ 45,000 troops still there?

[ClarkUSA]

79. Does that logic apply to Germany, Japan and Korea?

You didn't reply to ReggieRocker here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2118912&mesg_id=2119919

[totodeinhere]

123. Actually, he should withdraw those troops as well. n/t

[Divernan]

141. THREE US SOLDIERS KILLED IN IRAQ IN SEPTEMBER; 1 SO FAR IN OCTOBER

http://www.google.com/search?q=+US+deaths+Iraq+2011&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

10-10-2011 Wilke, James B. Chief Warrant Officer 38 2nd Battalion, 43rd Air Defense Artillery Regiment, 11th Air Defense Artillery Brigade, 32nd Army Air and Missile Defense Command U.S. Army Texas Ione Non-hostile Doha Qatar
9-29-2011 Mills, Adrian G. Specialist 23 272nd Military Police Company, 519th Military Police Battalion U.S. Army Georgia Newnan Hostile - hostile fire - indirect fire Kirkuk Iraq
9-22-2011 Morales, Andy C. Sergeant 32 143rd Sustainment Command (Expeditionary) U.S. Army Florida Longwood Non-hostile Baghdad Iraq
9-18-2011 Altamirano, Estevan Staff Sergeant 30 1st Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division

And thank you SO much for pointing me to Reggie Rocker's blatant lie of a post claiming "no US soldiers were killed in Iraq last month". I have responsibilities precluding me from constantly monitoring responses to my posts, but was pleased to see that other DUers DID respond.

[Union Scribe]

190. They've clawed out their eyes so they can't see.

All that leaves is whatever the White House tells them is real.

[Divernan]

26. US military pushing O for up to 18,000 troops to remain in Iraq

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0907/Iraq-withdrawal-How-many-US-troops-will-remain

US military commanders, led by Gen. Lloyd Austin III, the senior commander in Iraq, are proposing that up to 18,000 US troops remain in Iraq after the year-end pull-out date. Currently, about 45,000 US troops are in Iraq.

The military request for a higher residual force reflects a conclusion by commanders on the ground that Iraqi security forces are not yet ready to forgo the support and guidance of a substantial US training presence. Officially, any remaining US forces would be limited to training functions, which is already the stated purpose of US troops in Iraq.

[ClarkUSA]

80. Have you always been as outraged at US troops in Germany, Japan, and Korea?

[frylock]

178. how many us troops were killed in combat last month in germany, japan, or korea?

[Divernan]

142. US plans $3 BILLION mercenary force in Iraq for 2012

http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2011/06/07/u-s-plans-3-billion-mercenary-force-for-iraq/


U.S. Plans $3 Billion Mercenary Force for Iraq
Posted on June 7, 2011 by Jean

State Department Prepares to Hire 5,100-Strong Security Detail and Take Over Military Hardware for After Army Leaves–State Dept. will rely on mercenaries to carry out range of military-style missions ‘not inherently governmental’

07 Jun 2011

The State Department is preparing to spend close to $3 billion to hire a security force to protect diplomats in Iraq after the U.S. pulls its last troops out of the country by year’s end. In testimony Monday before the Commission on Wartime Contracting, Patrick Kennedy, undersecretary of state for management, said the department plans to hire a 5,100-strong force to protect diplomatic personnel, guard embassy buildings and operate a fleet of aircraft and armored vehicles.

AND

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/07/22-1

Published on Friday, July 22, 2011 by Wired.com / Danger Room
Exclusive: U.S. Blocks Oversight of Its Mercenary Army in Iraq
by Spencer Ackerman

By January 2012, the State Department will do something it’s never done before: command a mercenary army the size of a heavy combat brigade. That’s the plan to provide security for its diplomats in Iraq once the U.S. military withdraws. And no one outside State knows anything more, as the department has gone to war with its independent government watchdog to keep its plan a secret.

By January 2012, the State Department will do something it’s never done before: command a mercenary army the size of a heavy combat brigade. (photo: DoD) Stuart Bowen, the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR), is essentially in the dark about one of the most complex and dangerous endeavors the State Department has ever undertaken, one with huge implications for the future of the United States in Iraq. “Our audit of the program is making no progress,” Bowen tells Danger Room.

For months, Bowen’s team has tried to get basic information out of the State Department about how it will command its assembled army of about 5,500 private security contractors. How many State contracting officials will oversee how many hired guns? What are the rules of engagement for the guards? What’s the system for reporting a security danger, and for directing the guards’ response?

And for months, the State Department’s management chief, former Ambassador Patrick Kennedy, has given Bowen a clear response: That’s not your jurisdiction. You just deal with reconstruction, not security. Never mind that Bowen has audited over $1.2 billion worth of security contracts over seven years.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Posteritatis]

27. Posts like this make my inner historian start mainlining aspirin. (nt)

[Taverner]

41. Google 'Operation Hotfoot' and then get back to me

[Posteritatis]

52. Because everything now turns out identically to something that happened fifty years ago. Right. (nt)

[Taverner]

56. I'm just saying, once we deploy troops somewhere, it's hard to get out

[uppityperson]

106. I guess that means we're still at war with Germany then.

[Taverner]

112. Yes. Yes it does. nt

[uppityperson]

114. Huh. Should've used the sarcasm smiley then. eom

[Taverner]

133. We're technically at war with anywhere we have a base

Sucks, I know....

[uppityperson]

185. If THAT is your definition, you are really reaching. Wish I could unrec this again

sucks, I know...

[Taverner]

186. So you think the empire is a good thing?

I don't

Pax Americana is neither

[uppityperson]

187. No. I also don't think we are "at war" with any country that has a base in it.

Ever hear of allies? I see Germany as an ally but you see us as being at war with them. Odd.

[Taverner]

189. If they weren't "allies" we would crush them

It's all about empire

[Number23]

195. Uh oh. Somebody better tell the Aussies that we're at WAR with them!!one!1

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/02/14/1171405295243.html

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Yeah, after seeing this exchange. I'm with you. I wish I could unrec this again.

[libinnyandia]

28. Obama vs McCain

How many wars would John "Bomb Bomb Iran" McCain have started? Who knows, perhaps we would be in Iran now.

[Taverner]

39. Most assuredly we would be in Iran. But at least DU would be against the war.

[krabigirl]

165. don't kid yourself. we will be in Iran soon enough.

[truedelphi]

30. And both men are/were quite happy to let their "good buddies"

Continue the War on the Middle Class.

[dionysus]

34. that's nice.

[Itchinjim]

35. 238...

[Taverner]

44. 745...

[Mz Pip]

45. I read your links

I would hardly call 100 troops in Uganda and several dozen in Yemen a "war."

[Taverner]

47. Vietnam started with just 100 troops

Once in, it was damn near impossible to get out

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I don't think so

[Mz Pip]

51. So? n/t

[Taverner]

54. Like I said to another poster, let's talk in five years

[Mz Pip]

58. Then wait 5 years

before posting that Obama started wars in Yemen, Libya and Uganda.

[Taverner]

59. But he did...

There's no denying it

[Posteritatis]

92. Considering all three were ongoing for some time, there really is. (nt)

[Taverner]

101. So political survival is worth anyone we kill? Got it!

[uppityperson]

107. No, it means he didn't start them. You are really reaching here. Complain about US involvement if

you wish, but saying Obama started them is really reaching and not true.

[Posteritatis]

126. Keep fabricating statements to respond to; it beats responding to peoples' words, after all. (nt)

[xiamiam]

147. sending drones into yemen and somalia is war..when someone pushes a button in nevada

and kills people in a village in yemen..that is war..whether it is announced or approved..how can you possible support this?

[Rex]

46. Yeah but those were much smaller wars and they were started

for the right reasons. Iraq was like the 2000 election...worst thing we could have done imo.

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. Huh?

:rofl:

[U4ikLefty]

111. Hey that was OMC's typical reponse

congrats

[WillyT]

62. K & R !!! - But... Well, You Know...

:shrug:

:hi:

:kick:

[LanternWaste]

63. There were no wars in Libya, Yemen or Uganada prior to Obama's intervention?

There were no wars in Libya, Yemen or Uganada prior to Obama's intervention?

[moondust]

64. So you supported Bill Clinton staying out of the Rwanda genocide?

Intervening would be "starting a war" in your book, no?

[belcffub]

71. if he would have got a declaration of war from congress

I would be OK with it... we have procedures for declaring war.... I would like to see them used

[Posteritatis]

91. You do know this was thoroughly approved by Congress, right? (nt)

[belcffub]

156. in rawanda???

I did not think that happened... can you cite it... I know congress said they would support the president if he asked to bring troops in but that never happened...

[Posteritatis]

175. Ack! No, I meant Uganda

The conduct over Rwanda was an embarrassment of the lowest sort.

[11 Bravo]

67. Yup, all by himself President Obama started wars in Libya, Yemen, and Uganda.

I meaqn, who doesn't remember what a peaceful Eden all three garden spots were befor that war-mongering mother-fucker "started" those wars. And the body bags and coffins have been pouring into Dover AFB ever since.

What??? Not a single American fatality in any of those "wars" that he started?

It's curious, I was in a "war", 40 years ago, and I distinctly remember seeing American soldiers die ... some of them within a couple of meters of me.

But I will bow to your no doubt superior wisdom.

[Rosco T.]

69. Oh. Horse. Shit.

doesn't deserve anything more.

[Major Nikon]

86. I was thinking maybe a cry for attention

But perhaps your response is the best, even though I was thinking more in the line of pure unadulterated horse shit with no additives, fillers, or preservatives.

[madamesilverspurs]

70. I was gonna say "bullshit", but

in this case it's "bullfuckingshit".

Good grief.

[Taverner]

99. Agree to disagree MSS?

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

98. War is unhealthy for children and other living things

NT

[11 Bravo]

154. Perfect. Nothing sums up your intellectual heft quite so well as a 40 year old bumper sticker.

[RegieRocker]

74. Self delete

[joshcryer]

83. Selective Outrage about War

http://www.juancole.com/2011/05/selective-outrage-about-war.html

[Union Scribe]

191. You gonna keyboard warrior this campaign too?

[cliffordu]

84. WTF.

Is wrong with you?

:hurts:

[Taverner]

97. WTF is wrong with me? Sorry, I like peace, love and understanding. Not war, mahem and death. NT

[xiamiam]

149. i agree with you..and so do the millenials.supporting this nonsense because obama does it is obscene

these wars are for profit..keeping the mic engine greased..this is a sad thread..bunch of dinos posting..a new day is on the horizon and war mongers and profiteers will be left in the dust scratching their head at what they missed..peace

[cliffordu]

211. Blah. You still take part in WHY we there, ya know, that

War, Mayhem and death...

Drive a car lately???

[Riftaxe]

90. No mention of Somalia?

They get no respect, not even for US Military action on their soil leading to multiple deaths.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/30/us-drone-strikes-somalia ">US extends drone strikes to Somalia June 30 2011
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/203302.html">US drone strike kills 29 in Somalia Oct 7, 2011

[madinmaryland]

94. Un-recced. Sigh.

[Fumesucker]

100. K&R

[Poll_Blind]

105. K&R- lotta people sucking up to military adventurism they wouldn't have stood for under Bush.

PB

[chill_wind]

136. It's an acquired taste, apparently.

Surely when the gopfascists carry on the status quo, which they will, the appetites will still be there.

[krabigirl]

162. Yep. It's almost like this was intended.

If McSame had won, the anti-war left would have only grown in size.

[uppityperson]

108. unrec for hyperbole. Complain about US involvement if you want, but no, he didn't start

wars in Libya, Yemen or Uganda. No need to exaggerate.

[Vidar]

113. Very good point.

[PufPuf23]

116. POTUS Obama is a War POTUS by nature alas. nt

[ClarkUSA]

118. Bullshit rhetoric are baseless attacks by nature alas. nt

[PufPuf23]

120. Some posters at DU have no credibility alas. nt

[ClarkUSA]

121. That explains the number of recs for this OP.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deaniac21]

125. War is only bad if a republican is president.

[GSLevel9]

127. Amazing... OP states a fact and is attacked. Pathetic. nt

[geek tragedy]

128. No, the OP was a dishonest, ignorant whine.

The US is not at war in Uganda.

[ClarkUSA]

129. OP spouts subjective negative rhetoric about Pres. Obama w/o a shred of proof and is called on it.

Good. :)

[Dreamer Tatum]

134. Just assume Bush sent armed troops to Uganda, or bombed Libya

and that will fix you right up.

What the mighty (D) will fix in people's minds is amazing. Truly staggering.

[Divernan]

143. In "mighty D" land, oxymorons abound, flourish and multiply.

[xiamiam]

150. amazing, isn't it..for a wicked policy which has no upside..nt

[ClarkUSA]

152. Who's truly wicked is the leader of the LRA. Human Rights Watch has long asked for this deployment.

What is wicked is ignoring the suffering of the victims and victimized of both the LRA and Gaddafi. I'm glad President Obama isn't acting like Bill Clinton and standing by as dictators and despots slaughter their people.

FYI, human rights groups have asked for this kind of armed deployment to counter the LRA and the no-troop on the ground intervention in Libya is sanctioned by the U.N. and is by no means unilateral.

[Taverner]

155. OMG He's worse than Hitler! He's an evil doer! He's part of an axis of evil!

The smoking gun will come in the form of a mushroom cloud!

:eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

161. "ordering village massacres, recruiting prepubescent soldiers, keeping harems of child brides and.."

...mutilating opponents" is what the leader of LRA has been doing for decades:

President Obama said Friday that he had ordered the deployment of 100 armed military advisers to central Africa to help regional forces combat the Lord’s Resistance Army, a notorious renegade group that has terrorized villagers in at least four countries with marauding bands that kill, rape, maim and kidnap with impunity...It is led by Joseph Kony, a self-proclaimed prophet known for ordering village massacres, recruiting prepubescent soldiers, keeping harems of child brides and mutilating opponents.

“For more than two decades, the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) has murdered, raped and kidnapped tens of thousands of men, women and children in central Africa,” Mr. Obama wrote in a letter to Congress announcing the military deployment. “The LRA continues to commit atrocities across the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of Congo and South Sudan that have a disproportionate impact on regional security.”

The decision by Mr. Obama to deploy armed military advisers into the region was welcomed by human rights advocates who have chronicled the atrocities committed by Mr. Kony and his subordinates... Tom Malinowsky, the Washington director of Human Rights Watch, said the group had been advocating for such a deployment. Putting more skilled advisers in the field with the armed forces of these countries would be a significant improvement over the previous level of assistance, he said.

Your mockery seems unfathomable, given these facts about Joseph Kony. Bill Clinton ignored Rwanda out of political expediency, but I'm glad President Obama has the moral courage to do the right thing, regardless of any political cost to himself. President Obama is much more humanitarian than any of his 24/7 critics, as human right groups have been applauding this move since yesterday.

[Harmony Blue]

166. The problem with that argument is

that the Ugandan government has committed atrocities as well. The U.S. should not interfere in this terrible civil war in Uganda.

[ClarkUSA]

169. This is not about Uganda; it's about protecting the people of 4 African nations from LRA's brutality

Why don't you go to Human Rights Watch and read what they have to say about this action? Read what they have to say about The Lord's Resistance Army.

[Harmony Blue]

171. We know about the LRA very well

but a Uganadan government that commits war crimes like the LRA and is the most anti-gay government in the world should not have our support. Period.

[ClarkUSA]

173. That's a red herring. Again this is not about supporting the Uganda government.

Playing politics while innocent lives are at stake is amoral.

[Harmony Blue]

180. "We" are choosing to be part of this civil war

yes it is part of supporting the Ugandan government with the help of the advisors. Furthermore, it is amoral to support a Ugandan government that was very close to passing a bill that penalized anyone found to be gay the death penalty. It was changed because of global pressure, but you can be jailed a very long time for being gay as the bill passed.

The Ugandan government has also been behind destabilization of neighboring countries, and committed atrocities to the north. Playing politics so the U.S. can secure a new oil field in Uganda doesn't sit well with me.

[ClarkUSA]

183. President Obama is doing for 4 nations what human rights groups have wanted for a long time.

Go complain to someone who is amoral enough to think abstract political issue litmus tests are more important than saving immediate lives.

[ClarkUSA]

151. If human rights groups or the U.N. asked for the deployment or intervention, I'd be 100% supportive.

That will fix you right up. What the mighty Obama will fix in people's minds is amazing Truly staggering.

[chill_wind]

144. SOCOM. Bush- 60 countries. Obama 120 countries by end of 2011

@jeremyscahill

By end of 2011, SOCOM estimates its forces will be in 120 countries, up from 60 under President Bush.
#NotBreakingNews

One advantage of using "secret" forces for such missions is that they rarely discuss their operations in public. For a Democratic president such as Obama, who is criticized from either side of the political spectrum for too much or too little aggression, the unacknowledged CIA drone attacks in Pakistan, along with unilateral U.S. raids in Somalia and joint operations in Yemen, provide politically useful tools.

Obama, one senior military official said, has allowed "things that the previous administration did not."

U.S. 'secret war' expands globally as Special Operations forces take larger role
June 4, 2010
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304965.html

Only what- 75 left to go? If we could double Bush in three years at this rate, I'm sure we could finish that remaining 40% at a far more leisurely pace by 2016.

[ClarkUSA]

153. Jeremy Scahill is fearmongering media whore. Still waiting for BushCo to invade Iran...

:rofl:

[chill_wind]

157. Them's just the facts, Jack.

Just an observation. He didn't write the WAPO piece.

[ClarkUSA]

158. You had to dig up an old news story from June 3 for that boogeyman nugget? Glad they nailed OBL!

[chill_wind]

168. Again, just the facts and reality. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

170. "reality" = Special Ops is doing a great job under Pres. Obama, far better than BushCo.

[dionysus]

159. Damn, I am feeling the FAIL of this thread right now.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Number23]

196. I know. It's pretty epic. Up there with the Seabiscuit "Hillary will WIN!!one" variety

[krabigirl]

160. Yep. Don't forget the drone attacks in pakistan and somalia as well.

[bvar22]

167. Senator Obama, 12-20-2007

“The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.” ---Senator Obama, 12-20-2007



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Posteritatis]

177. Well, it's a good thing he didn't do that in this case, isn't it? (nt)

[MNBrewer]

172. We have two pro-war parties in this country

You MUST choose between them, or certain DUers will get very cross with you.

[ClarkUSA]

174. We have folks on both sides of the aisle who are always attacking anything Pres. Obama does.

Both groups specialize in rhetorical distortions in order to create daily outrage. For all practical purposes, they work in tandem to depress the vote for this President's re-election because of feelings of extreme animus.

[Taverner]

184. I'm sorry if some of us think war is a bad way to solve problems

I am sorry if some of us think indiscriminate killing will do any good

But that is what at least I believe

[ClarkUSA]

197. Glad Pres. O is saving lives."Human Rights Group Welcomes Obama’s Decision to Send Troops to Uganda"

The Human Rights Watch campaign for intervention, which began last November, included direct appeals for help from victims of the Lord’s Resistance Army in handwritten letters and an emotional video titled “Dear Obama.”

Ken Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, was traveling and unavailable for comment on Friday, but he did post two brief updates on his Twitter feed, in which he welcomed and defended the deployment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x797588

[Taverner]

198. You keep touting that one human rights group.

Doesn't it get old?

[ClarkUSA]

199. You keep making false accusations & revealing you could care less about stopping LRA's brutality.

Doesn't it get old?

[Taverner]

200. No - because at least I am consistent NT

[ClarkUSA]

201. So you're fine with making false accusations & not wanting to stop LRA because you're "consistent".

Gotcha.

[Taverner]

202. I am fine with not going to war with anyone who's resources we want

Agree to disagree?

Because we aren't going to convince each other of anything...

[ClarkUSA]

203. That's not what you said via Post #202 in reply to my Post #201 where I asked you this question -->

ClarkUSA (1000+ posts) Sat Oct-15-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #200
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 08:07 PM by ClarkUSA

201. You keep making false accusations & revealing you could care less about stopping LRA's brutality.
Doesn't it get old?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Taverner (1000+ posts) Sat Oct-15-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #201

202. No - because at least I am consistent NT

[Taverner]

206. I am consistently anti-war. Your problem?

[ClarkUSA]

207. So you believe WWII shouldn't have been fought and that we should have stayed the British colonies?

Nobody with a shred of foreign policy know-how and intellectual veracity would think that our actions in Yemen against Al-Qaeda-linked Islamic militants (whose president worked with us to nail OBL), the government invited 100 troop Uganda military aid to stop the LRA's decades-long murderous brutality or the U.N. sanctioned Libya intervention are all "wars" nor would they insist that a "war" is still going on in Iraq when President Obama ended BushCo's war last August to much celebration within Iraq itself nor would they ignore the fact that the Afghanistan war is winding down on schedule.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MNBrewer]

204. Never anything outrageous comes from the Obama administration

EVER... just ask Clark and Prosense....

Move along, nothing to see here.

[ClarkUSA]

208. Yawn. Yet another lame strawman fallacy... indeed, there's "nothing to see here".

:nopity:

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

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[ClarkUSA]

210. If we are to survive, our loyalties must be broadened further, to include the whole human community.

Carl Sagan said that. You quoted him in your profile.