What metric will the OWS use to declare - we won?

[RiverStone]

As the OWS movement goes forward, the goals become more obvious: public financing of elections, break-up the big banks, proportionate tax for millionaires, and end the US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan (to name a few).

Creating the change we seek could take years, but a few key changes can happen by and during our upcoming election year. With a fire lit under their ass, Congress can respond to the voices of We The People. What do you think needs to happen (at a minimum) for people to feel like they no longer need to sit in protest, but can go home?

What metric will the OWS use to declare - we won?

[rucky]

1. milliliters?

[Arctic Dave]

2. Disembowelment and Quartering of all who resist?

Am I close?

[Fire Walk With Me]

3. Oh well.

[RiverStone]

4. Did I ask a tough question?

:hi:

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. No, I said something nasty about Republicans and decided to edit it.

But..if you want some answers, smiley-wavey person?

-Success will be indicated with the removal of the current political system in (obvious) favor of a large-scale version of the
General Assembly.
-Success will be indicated with the end of police being trained to use extreme force upon the non-violent.
-Success will be indicated with the installation of a "flat" system of skills and work for return of needed items.
-Success will be indicated with the initiation of an international think tank/work group against global warming.
-Success will be indicated when media systems are utilized for the dissemination of geniunely helpful information as well as
stories of hope and overcoming.
-Success will be indicated with cooperation replacing predatory selfishness.
-Success will be indicated with friendly inclusion of all peaceful people regardless of sexuality, race, etc.
-Success will be indicated as above through inclusion and distaste toward exclusion.
-Success will be indicated through the awakening of those who consume and harm, to the above.
-Success will be indicated through the natural acceptance and desire for higher principles such as courage, honesty, non-violence,
brotherly love, integrity, etc.

This is what is actually occuring right now. I could go on.

[RiverStone]

15. great list - thanks!

Whereas most of us agree on the goals, there is a debate on what goal carries the most weight and how best to articulate (to the general public) what OWS is trying to achieve.

Success can be measured in hundreds of ways, I just don't see a goal line or the clock running out - maybe that's OK. As long as in incremental steps, we achieve success - then we are winning.

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. They are brilliant to have not had an early list of demands, for many reasons.

No early list could have included the number of issues made evident through the mere presence of #OWS.

Remember that there are two directions in competition, and crisis occurs when the old direction struggles to endure (fruitlessly but violently). This is what I've been taught, this I believe to be true.

[Fire Walk With Me]

14. Also check wikipedia.org for FDR's Second Bill of Rights.

[PETRUS]

5. Truth & Reconciliation?

Resignations, full confessions, and a surrender of all ill-gotten gains? A transparent, democratic society with a framework of laws that truly promotes the general welfare? (Or something like that.)

[RiverStone]

8. The criminal bankers will probably never be prosecuted...

Cause they paid off too many on The Hill to hold hearing against them...but, I do believe reconciliation is possible with bold, fair, and compassionate legislation that creates jobs and in turn, billions of dollars by eliminating corporate tax loopholes.

[PETRUS]

10. If our elected officials

...remain so beholden to finance and the military/industrial* complex that they are unable to honestly represent the people, then we could hardly claim victory.

EDIT: *The narrow interests of the principle owners of finance & industry: the top 10% owns about 80% of all stocks, the top 1% owns about half of that (40%).

[RiverStone]

22. Without campaign finance reform, there is no hope this will change

No corporate or pac donations - cap individual contributions at $100

This happens, then we we may actually have politicians not bought and paid for.

[PETRUS]

23. I don't exactly disagree

But I think what you suggest is not nearly ambitious enough. As long as a serious concentration of wealth and power exists in this country, we can expect such laws to be circumvented immediately and undone over time.

[Earth_First]

6. A job?

:shrug:

[Kennah]

7. Look to the protests of the Civil Rights movement

Did it end with:
- The Civil Rights Act of 1964?
- The fall of Richard Nixon?
- The end of the Viet Nam war?
- The rise of the environmental movement and a shitstorm of good legislation enacted?

If the same standard holds:
- Constitutional Amendment stating "Corporations aren't people, my friend."
- The incarceration of George W. Bush
- The end of all the wars
- We abandon oil

[RiverStone]

9. That may take 7 generations

But in the in between, I hope we can agree that success can be measured and achieved - just seeking a common definition. It may be too early, the OWS movement is still an infant.

[Kennah]

12. I don't think clearly defined goals are needed. Keep the Change open ended. That keeps it Real.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. At some point "victory" will be declared

and it will then just melt away

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. "When justice rolls down like mighty waters and righteousness like a mighty stream."

I don't interpret the OWS movement as a simple set of issues or even a single movement - but the rebirth of a tradition that has been pushed to the margins and fringes of mainstream political discussion for the last three decades or so. That is the tradition of fighting for economic fairness and a more equitable distribution of wealth. This movement has taken on many forms throughout history from the populist, progressives and socialist of the last two centuries mainstreaming into the politics of the New Deal and the Great Society.

There is no definable point in which the just society has been created. The OWS movement is already on the verge of its first victory - putting the issue of economic justice back into the mainstream of popular political culture - after decades of lying dormant in the wilderness and expressing itself only in the ravings of a handful of leftist. Now this traditions seems to be coming back - just when respectable opinion had already assumed it was dead and buried.

But if one is looking for some specifics - others have mentioned FDR's second Bill of Rights as a model of a declaration - This I agree might make a good and decent statement of goals:

“ It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.”<2> People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.

For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

[RiverStone]

19. Very well said Douglas - I think it's too easy to think in linear terms

It's been so long since I've seen a rebirth of a noble tradition, I forgot what it looked like! I was in elementary school during the bulk of the 60's - old enough to remember the protests, the smell of weed, my parents crying when JFK was killed --- but too young to really understand what was going on.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. thank you very much...I thought I would post the footage of FDR's Second Bill of Rights speech on

the video forum - I really do think that it might very well make for a very fine declaration of goals:



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x624972



.

[Matariki]

17. My personal list - for starts:

- Money out of politics - i.e. real election reform. Campaign limits, publicly funded elections, limits on television advertising (versus televised debates), paper ballots.

- Taxes raised on the wealthiest citizens and corporations - at the very least not calling the end of the supposed temporary Bush tax cuts "raising taxes".

- REGULATIONS on the financial industry and consequences for the companies and people who caused the collapse.

- Fairness Doctrine restored - better yet, a law like Canada just implemented disallowing News to lie and misrepresent

- Acknowledge that a well educated population is good for the Nation and spend accordingly. Grant some sort of amnesty on crippling student loans, end the absurd 'unforgivable debt' thing, seriously increase college grants and make college A LOT more affordable.

- Some sort of program to help with people who were hurt in the housing bubble.

That's my short list.

[kestrel91316]

21. Chest-pounding isn't their style. Try another question. Then enjoy your pizza.

[surrealAmerican]

24. I'm not sure a leaderless movement can ever declare victory.

This is not necessarily a problem, though. The protests will end when conditions are improved enough.

[blindpig]

25. If it is a beginning and not an end...

if it awakens class conciousness and class analysis then it serves a great purpose.

The need to protest will not end for a long time.

[L. Coyote]

26. No more WAR, no more Billionaires, no more Hunger, no more Bullshitting the Masses

No more Religion, no more Racism, no more Sexism, no more 1% ruling the 99%.

We are ONE Family! We can act like it if we so decide.

We cannot ever declare victory. We must forever remain vigilant.

[me b zola]

27. I can only speak for myself

But when we turn on the news and it actually reports the news, I'll know we have won

When elected government officials respond to the needs of the people and not big business, I'll know we have won

When our resources are used to makes us a healthier, just, and equitable society , I'll know we have won

When the public sector, not corporations, is funded by our tax dollars, I'll know we have won

When we stop invading and bombing people because big business wants their resources, I'll know we have won

When corporations are no longer considered people, I'll know we have won

When we no longer fear the police in our communities and can trust that they are there to protect and serve us, I'll know we have won

When politicians understand that they will not win elections if they lie, distort, and pit citizen against citizen, then I'll know we have won

When anyone working can earn a living wage, then I'll know we have won

When collective bargaining is the norm &respected, I'll know we have won

---------------------

These are just a few things that come off the top of my head. I don't think this will be something that is over in just a few months. Could take years. Could take decades. We will win.

[RiverStone]

28. Very thoughtful list, Thanks Zola!

Any of the above transformed to reality is a step in the right direction.

I hope as the OWS movement evolves, specific action items will be routinely shared that empower citizens to be part of the solution. Sitting in protest has it's place, but I also think many people involved are not sure what else they can do.

Adding the question to each item on your list: OK, now what do we need to do to get there? --- will allow us to get there sooner, even if it takes a generation or two.

[me b zola]

29. IMO, for any of those things to happen there must be fundamental change

It is likely that if we get one we will get all.

To get there all I know is we must not relent. We must not allow the movement to be co-opted by politicians or groups for their own purposes. We must stand strong, stay engaged, and continue to bring enlightenment to others who still don't understand why everyday people's lives have become such a struggle.

I'm getting ready now to head down-town to join with others. Thats all I know to do. For today, that is enough.

[LatteLibertine]

30. For me

I'd add to that list continuing to work on shutting down the revolving door between lobbying and government.

Right now a good deal of people go into government with their eyes actually on becoming a high paid lobbyist.

The game now is that they're calling themselves "advisers" instead. You should not be able to work in government regulating a certain industry then go to work in said industry as a lobbyist for near twice the pay when you're done "serving" the people.

As has already been said; we must have real campaign finance reform and term limits for Congress as well.

Something needs to be done about the Federal Reserve too. It needs to be transparent and accountable.

There should be meaningful capital requirements for these banks that want to gamble. They shouldn't be able to do so with nothing backing it up.

Trading and hedge funds should be >transparent<. No more back room bullshit.

Short selling should be hampered.

Capital gains should be taxed at the same rate as income from working 9 to 5.

If I had to pick one or two out of all of that, it would be campaign finance reform and term limits for Congress. As long as it's easy to >buy< our Congress, "the people" are doomed.