Japanese young men not as interested in sex

[FLPanhandle]

According to the survey of 800 people who turned 20 years old this year, 83.7 percent of Japanese males said they were not dating anyone, while 49.3 percent said they had never had any girlfriends.

More surprising was the news that in a separate survey by the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare published by the Japan Family Planning Association that 36.1 percent of Japanese males, aged 16 to 19, had no interest in sex whatsoever -- up from a 2008 record of 17.5 percent.

“A comparison of the 2008 and 2010 findings show that men indeed have become ‘herbivores,'" said Kunio Kitamura, head of the Japan Family Planning Association, on NHK. "The findings seem to reflect the increasing shallowness of human relations in today’s busy society.”

Japan's birth rate stands at 1.21 per family, far below the rate of 2.08 babies that is required for a stable population.

As of March 2009, Japan's total population stood at just over 127 million, but that figure is projected to decline to 95 million by 2050. And if more drastic measures fail to encourage people to have sex - and hence children - then there will be a mere 47.7 million Japanese at the turn of the next century.

According to the survey of 671 men and 869 women, issued by the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare, 35.1 per cent of men aged 16 to 19 said they are not interested in or averse to sex, more than double the 17.5 per cent of men in the previous study in 2008.

"Obviously, the most important reason for Japan's declining birth rate is that people are not having sex," Dr. Kunio Kitamura, head of the Japan Family Planning Association, told The Daily Telegraph.

"Combined with the rising number of elderly people, this population imbalance is a major problem," he said.

http://www.cnngo.com/tokyo/life/no-sex-japanese-teens-boys-increasingly-show-no-interest-521163


Japan's 'herbivore men' -- less interested in sex, money

They are young, earn little and spend little, and take a keen interest in fashion and personal appearance -- meet the "herbivore men" of Japan.

Author and pop culture columnist Maki Fukasawa coined the term in 2006 in a series of articles on marketing to a younger generation of Japanese men. She used it to describe some men who she said were changing the country's ideas about just what is -- and isn't -- masculine.

"In Japan, sex is translated as 'relationship in flesh,'" she said, "so I named those boys 'herbivorous boys' since they are not interested in flesh."

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/world/japan.herbivore.men_1_japanese-men-men-and-women-girlfriend?_s=PM:WORLD


Harbinger of things to come elsewhere? Anything to slow the human population is good I guess.

[antigone382]

1. hard-wired. genetic. mars vs. venus....umm, wait....

maybe culture IS a major part of human gender and sexuality, after all...

[seabeyond]

7. ya think.... lol. nt

[roguevalley]

31. sounds like metrosexuality taken to the limit.

[Codeine]

2. I can't imagine what kind of existence

one would have without sex. Not one which I want to contemplate.

[WingDinger]

5. Unless you have the proper amount with which to bribe, and cajole, that kind of existence is how

most men past thirty live. Oh, how grand to make DECISIONS about how often you CHOOSE to have sex.

[seabeyond]

8. ha ha, i can see who isnt getting any. always the way, to blame mate. nt

[comtec]

55. I'll take that challenge...

Oddly my sex life is rather good right now.
however I tend to agree with the poster to a point.
There has been so much diminishing of men's roll in society that I can see why herbivore men are developing.

We men are constantly being told by women in the media we are no longer important. Why do you think this would not resonate with young men?

The idea of just working for your own place in the world, and to hell with the rest makes sense, and has a distinct desirable component to it.

I love my "pets" dearly, and they bring me a great deal of joy. However I am not sure I'd want to marry either of them.

I have my life, they have theirs, and we meet up occasionally for some very passionate times.
however, I see no need or desire to marry them (one I legally can't anyway in this state...yet)

of course my divorce put a very negative spin on how i see marriage of course.

Long - short, I see this as a very logical result of the anti-men rhetoric that is out there.
Notice I didn't say feminist. While some man-haters (all?) are feminists, not all (most?) feminists are so vitriolic towards men.

i think I'll post this in the men's forum. Could be an interesting discussion.
How do men feel about the "herbivore" lifestyle...

[seabeyond]

60. i love your challenges. the poster is really dissing females and the old and tired, once married

women wont give it up. the only way to get it is to pay for, or beg the wife. there has ALWAYS been the "dminishing" sexual role for the female... ballnchain, forcing down the isle, ect.... and that is what this man was doing here. he isnt getting sex? well, figure it out. many of us in marriage, both gender, are getting sex, happily, contently. he chose to diss a whole gender.

as men are feeling their role or importance is diminishing, women have always been in that position with men. my advice....? fuck everyone that wants to do that to you. they cannot make you own that role. only you can allow that to happen to yourself. so every male, every female that says fuck it... you arent going to tell me my worth, well... they are probably doing just fine and dont feel the need to diminish the other gender for whatever reason. probably gettin it, too.

"Long - short, I see this as a very logical result of the anti-men rhetoric that is out there."

women have been dealing with anti female rhetoric for ever and it is still live and well, per example of this poster. womens sexuality is just as awesome, and just as valid and all powerful as male. i dont have the need to make one gender less in order to empower another....

i am fine with all of us getting it on and being happily in bliss. but i am not going to put up with a man telling us that women are only bought or conjoled. it is insulting and offensive.

[WingDinger]

66. The truth is, it is petty, tedious, and expensive, You may argue it is worth it,

But increasingly, your opinion is alone. Then what?

[seabeyond]

67. damn i am glad my life isn't yours.... lol. ohhhh. there might be a conversation here

but the little you give isn't conducive for a lot of work on my part....

[WingDinger]

68. I have dated the worlds hottest women. Didnt mean a hill o beans.

Does that mean that I am a guru while I am amply provided? And now that I am stricken by disease, I am squat? That is far more an endictment of women and their druthers than my being a loser. This is just like the women that used their pets as screeners.

[seabeyond]

69. so you pay for a hot woman without substance and blame the women, lol lol. now

you cant pay for it and still blame the women.

i went for a good man. and it worked/works

and... i am sorry you are ill. sincerely. nothing ok about that.

[WingDinger]

78. Always been a liberal. Looked for real companionship. The most honest of them, admitted the real dea

deal. That amount, has become the new american dream, or{more correctly}, the lottery. Or a successful, professional, with as much business savvy, as their technical acumen. OR, you suck. That there, are the stakes in SOCAL. I admit my indoctrination.

[seabeyond]

81. ahhhh, you are in southern california, the height of shallow, lol.

there are lots of good women out there. there are lots of good men.

i have always been blessed to hang with good men. anything less, i had no desire to be around. i lived in southern calif. didnt get married there though, lol. but then i had no interest in marriage until i was way old and met hubby. wouldnt have done it otherwise. i do hope for the best with you.

[Warren DeMontague]

128. I don't want to rent it

I just wanna use it for a minute, or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH3XhkSC02g

[Codeine]

70. "endictment (sic) of women and their druthers"

I'm sensing issues.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

76. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Do you truly imagine sex is being used as a marital weapon and bargaining chip in every home across America?

Keep your partner happy and keep yourself fit enough to be attractive and you'll be fine.

[WildEyedLiberal]

143. God, this is such common fucking sense

A hundred to one all these guys who bitch about not getting any after they get married a) treat their wives like crap/take them for granted and/or b) turn into fat slobs. Gee, sorry, if your wife all of a sudden no longer wants to jump your bones all the time, maybe it's because she's busy and you don't do anything to help her out and you expect her not to notice the giant beer gut you've obtained since the wedding :eyes:

And if neither of those things are true, but there's still not an adequate amount of sex, then something's wrong with the relationship, and maybe these guys should talk to their wives about it instead of making the same tired old comments about how "women" don't like to have sex.

[FLPanhandle]

79. Been married to my wife for 17 years, no real change

When's this slow down supposed to happen?

Sounds like you really don't understand happy relationships.

[seabeyond]

80. i hear as many or more women complain about it as i hear men, with these threads.

it isnt that way in my home. i cant talk for others.

maybe you men say it enough, it becomes your reality. and no wonder.

[Liquorice]

88. Married people have more sex than single people. nt

[comtec]

96. I don't disagree with your rebuttal

damn... I had this great counter argument ready.
however I think we are arguing cross points.
I was only commenting on the advent of herbivore men.

As for the rest... yeah I completely agree with all your points.

I would say, however, that your enlightened view of both sexes is, sadly, rare.

[seabeyond]

101. yes

we are. what i was addressing is not the same as what you were addressing.

i have my own thoughts on these young guys... men, but not gonna hash it out on du.

[Codeine]

9. I'm forty (almost 41) and I have no difficulty in that regard.

My tiny apartment and twenty-year-old Corolla bear testimony to my inability to bribe, and any attempt at "cajoling" would likely be met with laughter. Instead I'm respectful and pleasant while still being reasonably forward -- I can still get laid easily enough.

And I ain't much to look at, either. You sound bitter. That never helps.

[Hello_Kitty]

37. Odd, isn't it?

[Warren DeMontague]

17. I must be the world's sexiest fortysomething guy, then

because I still don't have to bribe or cajole.

Weird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBhztSWFUgE

[Hello_Kitty]

35. And if you're not young and suitably "hot" as a woman you are invisible to most men.

My experience has been that the majority of single men I've met who complain about living a sexless life set their sights exclusively on conventionally attractive women.

[sudopod]

115. You're doing it wrong. Women like sex as much as you if you are doing it right.

also, that article and this thread are so full of high-handed "HAHA LOOK AT THEM FUNNY FORIEGNERS" bullshit that I want to puke.

If only the Japanese were more well adjusted like us, lol.

[namahage]

142. +1000. Seems like it's still OK to use broad-brush stereotypes against the Japanese

on a so-called "progressive" board.

[malletgirl02]

152. Another +1000 to you.

[treestar]

129. Try getting to know them and thinking of them as people

No one has the total and complete power of choice in this matter.

[treestar]

23. Everyone is different

There are many factors, physical, emotional, cultural, as this study suggests.

[truedelphi]

27. A lot of psych meds totally depress a person's liubido.

So young people these days are no longer feeling as much in terms of sex.

And then on the opposite side of the equation, the poor guy in his late eighties who is given Zoloft* can't stop obsessing about sex. So his personal nurses, and others, in the nursing home think he is a randy dude to be avoided.

* Zoloft is one of the anti-depression meds that "helps" the libido.

[Liquorice]

41. Zoloft and other SSRI's decrease the libido. nt

[truedelphi]

158. When you have spent twenty years out in the field with patients

Some of whom are now on Zoloft, get back to me.

[conspirator]

39. So one day when you stop being sexual attractive to others you are going to commit suicide? n/t

[Codeine]

59. I imagine I'll be a much different person then, with a different outlook.

But to be a young (or even middle-aged-to-older) man in decent health and not have any sort of sex life seems miserable to contemplate.

[JonLP24]

157. It isn't that bad

The hobbies I have make life enjoyable.

[Roullie]

72. Oh look everybody

It's the guy on the Internet who likes to brag on message boards about how much he gets laid whenever the subject of sex comes up.

I believe him every time.

[Codeine]

74. Meh.

Most people can get laid. It's not difficult, because humans are a species that enjoys rubbing their naughty bits together. You'll manage someday.

[LWolf]

92. Ask any of the significant number of people

who don't have available partners.

It's not always a choice.

[zazen]

3. is it inversely related to their increasing pornography use?

Studies here have indicated some effects of hardcore internet pornography on young male users' interest in/ability to have real, in the flesh relationships with their female peers.

[WingDinger]

6. No, it is in relation to the marriage trac expectations, and their affordability.

[femrap]

11. I've read that as well.....

a 'real' women is just a 'bad' pron star. Rather play w/ computer.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. To be fair, it's awfully hard to tell what is what and who is who these days

so many people pretending to be things they aren't, adopting multiple identities, what-have-you.

Maybe the Japanese gents are just confused by it all.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Got a link?

Or is this just common knowledge, like how video games and red meat cause violence.

[slampoet]

18. Is it considered porn to pull statistics out of your ass?

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Everybody knows that porn is misogynist and leads directly to war, moon bombing

and the heartbreak of psoriasis.

[JVS]

151. Moon bombing: the ultimate in graphic penetration.

[petronius]

117. No, porn is when you put them in there. Pulling them out is eroticism...

[conspirator]

46. Many men who have a normal sex life, watch porn and even masturbate n/t

[comtec]

109. Some even watch porn with their girlfriends! *GASP!*

Hell my exwife's porn collection is bigger than mine.
My girl friends' as well!

[Webster Green]

4. That's it. I'm moving to Japan.

Hang on girls, I'll get there ASAP.

[formercia]

10. The new Thailand

Now, if the cost of living were lower.......

[femrap]

12. Thailand became a 'sex

place' during the Vietnam War....that's where they sent the GIs for R & R. That war has ruined many, many lives....and still doing so today.

[Gaedel]

16. Thailand was only one of the choices

You could choose from:

Bangkok, Taipei, Hong Kong, Kualla Lumpur, Penang, Singapore, or Sydney (if you wanted round-eyed women).

Later, they added Honolulu (if you wanted to hook up with mama).

We didn't call it R&R, we called it I&I (Intoxication and Intercourse).

[femrap]

40. War....

ain't it just grand? Oppression upon oppression...

[formercia]

65. Or do all 7

and get 7 different strains of Clap.

[comtec]

110. gotta catch em all

nt

[Warren DeMontague]

21. But they make great soup.

Spiciest Tom Yum I ever had. Yowza.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLPanhandle]

75. Oh to be single and in my twenties again.

I would probably head on over and try to make up their slack.

[Webster Green]

100. Jeezuz, I'm in my '60s...

But I don't look it, and my trombone still plays.

What the hell.

[patrice]

13. Now, here's something useful for "Pro Life" -ers to do! They could be sex missionnaries! nt

[SoCalDem]

20. Just might have something to do with economic facts

Perhaps many young men are more interested in getting their careers on track before they make romantic relationships. It costs a lot to live there, so dating could be quite expensive..

The dropping birth rate could have to do with the economic issues too..
living spaces are very small, so maybe they do not want more than one child

[Hannah Bell]

44. yes, it could have something to do with the fact that 1/3 of japanese employees = part-time/temp &

rising inequality/decreased life prospects in japan.

[Matariki]

22. Perhaps that's a natural reaction to over population?

The island of Japan has a pretty dense population.

Or perhaps there's another reason(s)? Or it's a typical media exaggeration?

[daleo]

63. Interesting point

I was at a talk by Micheal Adams, a Canadian pollster/sociologist a couple of years ago. He had visited Japan and talked to demographers there who said the Japanese weren't all that concerned about the lower birth rate, seeing it as a natural and necessary population readjustment. He conjectured that many overpopulated countries will eventually go through a similar transition to a lower (and stable) population.

[InvisibleTouch]

125. Would that it were true...

...and I wish the condition would spread!

[Umbral]

163. After riding Japanese railways, not wanting to add to the population seems a logical response. nt

[flvegan]

24. Hey now, don't lump these sexdrive-less fellas

with us, herbivore men by choice. We're sex machines.

[petronius]

122. I've got to assume that when she came up with the "herbivore" metaphor

she'd never actually met a rabbit...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

26. That is fucked up.

[Little Star]

51. Holy shit! That room is F'd up! n/t

[Odin2005]

28. Wow, something is horrifically wrong with their society, but I can't out what.

Not wanting to have kids is perfectly fine, given our planet's population problem, but when 1/3 of young men don't have an interest in sex something is seriously fucked up.

[cowcommander]

29. Japan has a social problem called "hikikomori"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/2334893.stm

Japanese society has a lot of problems

[Hello_Kitty]

43. I have an idea.

Families adjust

Since then, he hasn't left the room or allowed anyone in.


Sprawling city suburbs harbour hikikomori sufferers
The family have since built a new kitchen - at first they had to cook on a makeshift stove or eat take away food.

His mother takes meals to his door three times a day.

The toilet is adjacent to the kitchen, but he only baths once every six months.

Hey families, stop "adjusting" to this bullshit! The kid clearly needs help but there's no excuse for indulging and accommodating him like this. You're the parents. You pay the bills. Make the kid bathe and leave the fucking kitchen.

[cowcommander]

57. Japanese families don't work that way

Basically this is a problem mostly faced by young men in Japan. In 2002, Japanese families were reluctant to speak of problems in their families because of ‘loss of face’ and family honour. Now, as the phenomenon has grown there are different forms of treatment and forums for those who isolate themselves in this way.

That this phenomenon does not occur in the West even though there are similar problems of unemployment and feelings of being socially inadequate, young men do not hide away in their rooms for weeks or months. If they did then families would soon consult a medical professional or social worker. The reasons why this was not done in Japan would seem to be that there is a social stigma attached to having to seek the advice of a psychiatrist or a psychologist.

http://www.suite101.com/content/hikikomori-has-been-in-existence-for-almost-a-decade-a302900

Also there was one case where the parents did try to kick the kid out, and they were murdered as a result.

According to the police, Takayuki Iwase, who is also suspected of setting fire to the house, is unemployed and had confined himself inside his home. Neighbors said Iwase had been reclusive for the past 15 years.

He was arrested in the early hours of Saturday after the police received an emergency call from a neighbor and found five family members, including his father Kazumi Iwase, 58, with stab wounds at the house, which was on fire. Kazumi and his 1-year-old granddaughter, Tomomi Kanemaru, were later confirmed dead.

Iwase was taken into custody at a funeral hall near the house after admitting that he stabbed five of his family members with a kitchen knife, the police said.

His mother Masako Iwase, 58, who was seriously injured, told investigators she was awoken by Iwase before being stabbed. Holding a flashlight in the dark house, Iwase asked her, “Who canceled the Internet?” according to the police. Iwase later told investigators his father canceled the contract for Internet access.

http://www.alafista.com/2010/04/18/hikikomori-stabs-family-and-kills-2-after-internet-access-cancelled/

[FLPanhandle]

87. I agree.

How can they let things get so bad. Nip that shit in the bud.

[KittyWampus]

47. That was interesting and thanks for posting it. Your post is a great example of what DU can be.

[namahage]

54. Self-delete. Thanks, mods. n/t

[originalpckelly]

49. I was watching Japanese TV one day...

and they had this report about how young men and women in Japan often cannot find a way in society if they do not gain future employment in, I believe, high school. It's really fucked up. A lot of mental illness becomes evident in the same years.

[cowcommander]

58. High schools in Japan are very different compared to the U.S

Employers in Japan focus more on what high school you went to, similar to how we focus on colleges instead. Except there's a lot more pressure to succeed and enter prestigious high schools. And unfortunately there have been cases of high school students committing suicide because they failed the entrance exams.

[Art_from_Ark]

134. The high school only matters if they don't go on to college

If someone goes to, say, KZ High School (which is considered to be the lowest level high school in this area), but they end up going to a 4-year university, then the university will be a more important factor in their career search. If they want to go into Vo-Tech, they'll aim for a technical high school (like the one near my house), or they will attend a junior college.

[KT2000]

30. Too much soy

and likely other estrogen mimicking chemicals in their environment. They should have their hormones checked.

[Odin2005]

32. But don't Chinese and Koreans eat a lot of tofu as well?

If it was from eating too much soy-based foods it would not be just the Japanese having this problem.

[KT2000]

33. Don't know about

China and Korea.
Anyway, they should check hormone levels in the men and start from there. If they do have too much estrogen or too low in the "male" hormones, all sources of estrogen and androgen mimickers should be examined.
Sometimes a chemical mimics with the effect of lowering that hormone and other mimickers will raise that hormone level.
Some serious testing and reseach need to commence.

[Hannah Bell]

45. yes, they do. plus japanese meat is likely "cleaner" of hormones than us meat.

plus soy has always been a big part of the japanese diet.

so your theory doesn't wash.

[KT2000]

52. not necessarily

First, rather than limiting the investigation to soy I would hope that all sources of hormone mimicking chemicals are examined. That would include those that are ingested, inhaled and absorbed through the skin.

Soy would be an obvious place to look because it is known to alter hormone balances in men.
Soy is usually a genetically modified crop and there are different methods for turning it into products, such as tofu. Those methods could differ from other countries, those methods could have changed, the raw material could also have different constiuents than what they used to have. The method for GM could also have changed.
OR -
ingesting soy may cause men to be close to the point where more exposure to estrogen mimicking chemicals in the environment will cause serious disruption of their hormone levels.


They need to do some investigating.

Just a point: We can no longer assume that food now is the same as it always has been. The introduction of numerous chemicals into agriculture are creating produce that is chemically different than "it always has been." Some chemicals are taken up into the plant, soils are treated with chemicals to provide nutrients that are no longer in the soil, various chemicals have been applied during the growing season and some remain on the produce.

[MattBaggins]

86. What do you base the claim of their meat being better on?

[Codeine]

61. Yeah, because the previous three thousand years of soy kept the population so low.

That's absurd. Crank science at its worst.

[KT2000]

83. in this context,

they have a diet high in soy that is known to alter men's hormonal balance. As time goes on we are exposed to ever more hormone mimicking chemicals. Maybe it is not too much soy but because of their diet they are poised to be more vulnerable to the other hormone mimicking chemicals.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[namahage]

144. I highly doubt that any country that has Justin Bieber and the Jonas Brothers as pop stars

really can talk regarding differences in testosterone levels as measured by musicians.

But hey, apparently anti-Asian bigotry is still acceptable on "progressive" websites.

[JCMach1]

145. Man... sarcasm already

but presented for your approval...

http://www.kpopmusic.co.uk/

I don't think it is bigoted to point out there is an element of Asian youth culture that is androgynous and perhaps (at least in Japan) sexless according to the OP.

Trust me, I will make fun of the Biebs when I get the chance too...!

:evilgrin:

[Peter1x9]

34. Maybe you are all forgetting the fact that they spend so much time working that

they don't have the energy or drive to do anything else?

They even have their own special term, "karoshi", meaning "death from overwork".

[seabeyond]

36. They are young, earn little and spend little

not sounding lie it is an overwork issue.

[cowcommander]

53. Japan's been in a recession since the 90s that they've never been able to recover from

MEMURO, Japan — Satomi Sato, a 51-year-old widow, knew she had it tough, raising a teenage daughter on the less than $17,000 a year she earned from two jobs. Still, she was surprised last autumn when the government announced for the first time an official poverty line — and she was below it.

“I don’t want to use the word poverty, but I’m definitely poor,” said Ms. Sato, who works mornings making boxed lunches and afternoons delivering newspapers. “Poverty is still a very unfamiliar word in Japan.”

After years of economic stagnation and widening income disparities, this once proudly egalitarian nation is belatedly waking up to the fact that it has a large and growing number of poor people. The Labor Ministry’s disclosure in October that almost one in six Japanese, or 20 million people, lived in poverty in 2007 stunned the nation and ignited a debate over possible remedies that has raged ever since.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/world/asia/22poverty.html

[FLPanhandle]

77. I remember going to university fulltime; working a fulltime job & a part time work study job

Slept about 4 hrs per night and I traded those precious sleeping hours for sex whenever I could.

Young men are not going to be less interested in sex because of work.

[malletgirl02]

38. Not everyone is interested in sex

It doesn't make them weird, and it is not fucked up. I'm not really interested in sex.

[dana_b]

64. true

and I'm with you however for 1/3 of the population of young men to claim this is kind of strange.

[JVS]

166. This thread demonstrates that men being disinterested in sex is an extreme transgression of gender..

norms and is met with derision.

[masmdu]

48. I hereby promise to do my part to help Japan with this problem!

[surrealAmerican]

50. There are so many more questions than answers here.

For instance:

At what age are boys in Japan starting puberty?
Are the under 20-year-old boys too busy with school to even have time to date?
What percentage of these boys/men are gay?
Did the survey even ask if they were dating other men?

[phylny]

56. Too much soy = big breasties, little testes.

Even if it's not soy, I would be alarmed. I'm a 52-year-old, postmenopausal woman and my husband (who had prostate cancer surgery two years ago) and I are dealing with erectile dysfunction as a side-effect of the surgery, yet we STILL manage to have some sort of sexual contact on a daily basis. (and I say YAY!)

What they're describing is not normal for a large group of young men.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

62. Maybe they are just grossed out by Japanese porn

A running gag between my family and some friends in Japan is to show each other the most fucked up things we can find in our respective countries. One such episode was a visit to a Japanese sex shop. Three banks of shelves of nothing but women shitting... I could very easily see a Japanese teenager surfing the internet for porn and being turned off sex for life.

[Taverner]

71. Sex, masturbation and coitus are limited

How about - tranSCENDING! THE UNIVERSE!!!!

[Art_from_Ark]

82. Japanese young men have little motivation for marriage

Ride the trains or walk around the streets of Tokyo and you'll find lots and lots of young women dressed to the hilt, carrying an expensive designer handbag (preferably Hermes or Louis Vuitton) in one arm, a couple of shopping bags from expensive department stores in the other, and staring incessantly at their cell phones as they strut around in their designer boots. I have asked many young Japanese men if they are attracted to such women, and almost no one has said he is.

And what does a young Japanese man have to look forward in a marriage? Working all day at some company, handing over his pay envelope (or these days his ATM card) to his wife, who saves that money for the children that they don't yet have. The couple may sleep in the same room, but rarely in the same bed (or futon, as is more often the case). A newlywed groom may have sexual relations with his new bride, but they probably don't use birth control, so a baby comes along in a year or two. Another year or two later, another baby comes along. The wife has met her baby quota, so she will often shut herself off sexually from her husband and focus almost exclusively on the raising of her children. Meanwhile, the husband is working all day and maybe making a nice sum, but he can't really enjoy it because most of that is set aside for the kids (who will require more than $100,000 each to raise to adulthood, which is 20 years old in Japan), and probably the mortgage for a home which he might spend a few hours in each week. If hubby begins to feel a little amorous, he will almost certainly get the Japanese version of "I have a headache": either "We already have enough children" or "What will our children think if they know we are having sex???"

By the time a couple are in their mid-40s, they have often grown apart. But there is still a social stigma associated with divorce, so the husband will remain in the marriage, even if it's driving him crazy, just to "maintain appearances". By that time, Junior is old enough to realize what is going on and thinks to himself "I don't want to live like that".

[seabeyond]

85. it truly is amazing how pathetic women are, and it is all their fault and the po po male

just breaks my heart

lol

[Art_from_Ark]

91. Right on cue

You have absolutely NO idea what it's like for men in Japan. Really, you don't.

[FLPanhandle]

94. I don't think he has any idea of what it's like to be in a good relationship

[seabeyond]

99. me? working on 17 yrs of good. no bitchin from me. nt

[FLPanhandle]

120. No. I meant it to Art. Sort of screwed up the post to reply to.

[seabeyond]

123. gotcha.

kinda thought....

[Art_from_Ark]

132. If you meant it for me, then I'll reply

I know what it's like to be in a good relationship. But I also know what it's like to see that relation go sour because one of the people in the relationship goes on a different course, or just gets tired of the other person. I have also talked with countless Japanese men and women about this topic. The women often don't want to discuss it. The men will often say "I don't like it but that's how it is".

I will offer a little anecdote to better explain the situation. I once did a translation for an organization that accommodates researchers and graduate students from other countries. They had just finished building a housing facility for these researchers/students, and my job was to translate their little guidebook into English. One of the things that stood out was their pictures of the facilities for married people. The master bedroom contained two small beds, each of which seemed barely large enough to accommodate one person, let alone two. When I used this as a topic of discussion in my English classes, many of my students noted that their parents sleep in different rooms. In Japanese TV dramas, bedroom scenes with married people look like they came out of an old '50s movie. That's just the way it is over here.

[seabeyond]

98. no. i just know, per you, it is all womens fault and hte po male is picked upon.

per you.

[Art_from_Ark]

102. And per you, it's always the man's fault

Always, in every post I've ever read from you on a subject like this. You do not seem to have the ability to see things from a man's point of view.

As a long-time resident of Japan, I am presenting the man's point of view about the topic at hand. You can post snarky, uninformed comments if you like about this topic, but that's all they are, snarky and uninformed.

[seabeyond]

104. then your reading comprehension lacks. i am only agreeing women are evil.... horrid horrid

women. and po put upon men.

[Art_from_Ark]

105. No, you are being snarky

And there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension.

[seabeyond]

107. you wont find that i have placed the blame on men in this thread.

what i have done is challenge men putting it all on women. you know.... pay or conjole crap. men dissing a whole gender.

i manage to be in a marriage where we dont play games and enjoy each other.

i could say i am way ahead in this game.

but you on the other hand... listed out all the reason women are at fault and not a single issue has a man being a part of the whole dynamics. the woman is evil, and the man is picked on. where am i wrong?

[seabeyond]

111. distinction between a childless woman and a mother. Mothers are not seen by their husbands as sexual

it seems like there is more to the story than what you tell.


http://www.wa-pedia.com/culture/sex_in_japan.shtml

Sexless couples & extramarital affairs
Japan has a surprisingly high number of sexless married couples by Western standards. There is an explanation for this. Marriages arranged by the family or friends (such as o-miai) are not unusual in Japan. Couples rarely live together before marriage, and the Japanese never have children without getting married first (unless it's an accident), because the Japanese law still does not recognise fathers of children born outside wedlock. Divorce is still very widely frown upon. In other words, the law and one's family pushes people to get married, even if the family has to resort to an arranged marriage, but they won't let them divorce afterwards, even if things don't work out.
To top it all, Japanese culture makes a clear distinction between a childless woman and a mother. Mothers are not seen by their husbands as sexually desirable anymore. Once a child is born the mother becomes like a relative, not a sexual partner anymore. (This may explain why so many families only have one child).

The difference between most Western countries and Japan is that Westerners would divorce or abstain if they were caught in a sexless relationship, while Japanese stay married and have extramarital affairs. Besides, northern and western Europeans (at least) are increasingly having children without ever getting married. This was unthinkable up to the 1950's, but liberal laws in the '60's and '70's have changed all that. A report in the Economist showed that nearly 80% of Swedish couples with children were not married. Only 50% of English parents are. The highest rates of married parents were found in Mediterranean countries, with Italy reaching 75% - a far cry from Japan's 99.9%.

This state of affairs has implacable consequences on the way Japanese society functions. The Japanese sex industry is the biggest in the world (in terms of money generated). Porn magazines are available at every convenience store and read widely, even in public. Many Japanese men are obviously sexually frustrated. According to the Durex global sex survey the Japanese are the national group that have sex the least often among the surveyed countries around the world. 37% of Japanese respondents said they had sex at least once a week (as opposed to 78% in China, 70 to 87% in southern Europe and 55 to 80% in northern Europe), and a dismal 15% admitted to being sexually satisfied.

Extramarital affairs are an almost culturally accepted part of life in Japan. A middle-aged married man won't be in trouble at home for seeking romance with young bar hostesses, or having sex with prostitutes in a soap land or "massage parlour". These are accepted facets of married life in Japan.

[LWolf]

93. They "probably don't use birth control." Why not? nt

[Art_from_Ark]

97. The main objective of marriage in Japan is still to have children

Until about 10 years ago, the only form of birth control (besides coitus interruptus) was condoms. Although the Pill was legalized around 1999 or so, there is still a social stigma against its use, and a lot of women seem to be extremely worried about potential side effects.

[LWolf]

153. Is the main objective of sex to have children, too?

I can see why many would choose not to marry, if the primary purpose is to procreate.

Is there something in the national culture that seeks to limit or diminish human sexual nature?

[Bonobo]

106. Lots of ignorance on this thread.

I thought about replying, but then I reconsidered. I bet you wish you hadn't bothered either.

As you implied, it isn't a lack of interest in sex, but a lack of interest in throwing away their comfortable lives into ones in which they are basically asked to sacrifice everything.

[Art_from_Ark]

114. There is a whole different attitude about that in Japan

A couple of years after I was first married, a Japanese acquaintance learned that we had no kids, and she said to me "Oh, you poor thing!".

[Odin2005]

119. They don't have BC is Japan?

[Art_from_Ark]

136. They do have BC in Japan

but it's mostly condoms. And while the Pill has been legal for a little more than 10 years, it doesn't seem to have caught on much.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

124. Thank you, Art. Someone who actually LIVES IN JAPAN

I would also like to add that a lot of young men grow up devoting all their time to study and have no time for social life in high school.

I knew someone who was a professor at Japan's most prestigious university, the University of Tokyo, and he said that the students liked to play childish games, like shooting one another with water pistols or flying model airplanes. When he asked some of them why, they told him that they had had no time to do such things when they were children.

Now admittedly, the experience I am going to tell you about happened a few decades ago, but I was at a student party in Tokyo that was mostly Western students, but with a few Japanese students attending. Some of the Western students were talking about good pickup lines that they'd heard, when one of the young Japanese men, who had already told us that he was a 26-year-old graduate student, asked, "What do you do on a date?"

In the old days, such young men would have gone to a matchmaker and found a wife among the many traditional young women who thought it was a tragedy if they were single past the age of 25. Even in the 1970s, I saw ads on TV for the Matchmakers' Union (Nakoudo Renmei).

The women have changed in many ways, whether it's turning into airheaded shopaholics or pursuing professional opportunities that were once closed to them, and the men have not. What Art says about more traditional women deciding that they're through with sex after a couple of children is also a factor.

The situation is very complex, but in some ways, I think it's the reverse of what happened in the U.S., where women looked at their mothers' marriages and said that they didn't want that.

[Art_from_Ark]

133. Thank you for that added explanation

And your mention of no time for social life in high school reminds me of a local private high school. While most students there have to pay tuition, there are some scholarships set aside for top students-- "A" and "S". "A", I was told, stands for "all years", meaning that it's a full 3-year scholarship. "S" stands for "single year", meaning that it has to be renewed each year based on performance and other conditions. One of the other conditions was that "S" scholarship students had to promise not to go on dates while they were receiving the scholarship!

[Art_from_Ark]

137. "Turning into airheaded shopaholics..."

That is a very concise description. :)

And as if to bring that point home, a lot of those shopaholics wear boots that go clop, clop, clop while they walk. Just like a horse.

[NuttyFluffers]

147. It's also not too terribly far off from S. Korea, either.

What Art says definitely coincides with my anecdotal knowledge of S. Korea and Japan as well. People can think whatever they want, but unless you've experienced it, you really have no basis with which to speak. You can still speak of course, but your protestations only look foolish. The world is different when you travel -- it's best to listen to those who experienced the differences, ne?

[seabeyond]

148. what i dont get is a culture that once women is preg, hubby no longer sees her as sexual

and he gets it elsewhere paying for it.

women condition from beginning that they are not sexual beings, unless they are young (prior to preg) and being paid for it

and we are blaming women for this.

who do you think created this culture?

[Art_from_Ark]

150. "Women conditioned from the beginning

that they are not sexual beings... Who created this culture?"

I'll take "Japanese Mothers" for $1000, Alex

[seabeyond]

154. you are telling me, that it is women in this culture, with the power, that created

a conditioning that women, after preg are not viable sexual partners?

in a world of male dominence and patriarchy it is the woman that created this?

the women in this coutnry seem to have two roles. the broodmare, then sent to pasture. or to be paid for to be used by male.

women did this?

[Art_from_Ark]

165. You would be amazed at what Japanese mothers tell their daughters

For example, I used to tutor an elementary school girl in English at her home. During one of the lessons, the girl made a cute little joke about some cartoon character and I laughed at it. But the mother, who was in the room, became furious and snapped at her daughter "You are supposed to be modest! You should never say such things, especially to a man!" Kind of freaked me out, because it was just a cute joke about some cartoon character. But it pissed off the mother for some reason. And I lost my tutoring job over it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

155. Yes, I found the whole mother-child dynamic mindblowing

I think the Japanese invented helicopter parenting. Mothers tend to treat their sons (not their daughters) with a mixture of almost seductive affection and overprotection. I suppose this dates back to the days of arranged marriages and extended families, when the new daughter-in-law was the lowest ranking member of the family, subordinate to everyone else, until she produced a son.

Little boys are both spoiled and overprotected. I've seen boys be really rude and nasty to their mothers (sometimes in the presence of their fathers, who do nothing) to the point of hitting them. Most American fathers would tell their sons to show some respect for their mothers and definitely not to hit them.

So the dynamic between the sexes is really different. It's the "virgin-mother-whore" syndrome writ large, and both sexes play a part in maintaining it.

I visited one of my university friends a couple of years after she had twins, and she told me that her husband had cooled off toward her after seeing her nurse the babies. "You remind me of a cow," he had said.

Another time, I was visiting a group of university friends, most of whom were married with children and brought their kids along. The three oldest, all from different families, were an 11-year-old girl and two boys who were maybe 12 or 13. The girl was told to watch the younger kids, while the boys were sent into another room to play video games. When two of the little kids got into a fight, everyone blamed the 11-year-old girl.

Once during my student days, I spent the day with the family of a young man who had been an exchange student in our town when my brother was in high school. The former exchange student was about 22 at the time, and as we were all watching TV, a neighbor girl about nine years old dropped by. Now there was a pot of coffee, some cups, cream, and sugar set out on the coffee table in this Western-style room, and the young men told the neighbor girl (the neighbor girl!) to fix him some coffee with cream and sugar. She did it without question.

Japan is changing fast, but attitudes have not caught up.

[MattBaggins]

84. This is why I won't drink the flouridated water

[Stevenmarc]

89. They just don't have the yen for it

[Codeine]

103. You've won this thread, sir. nt

[LWolf]

90. I think their declining population is great.

I wish we could achieve it world wide.

I feel certain we could achieve that worthy goal without giving up sex, though.

[AsahinaKimi]

95. Considering the fact many work over 80 hours in a week...

Their energy is spent.

Mainichi asa hayaku kara yoru osoku made hatarakimasu.
"Everyday I work from early morning until late at night"

毎日朝はやくからよるおそくまではたらきます。

[Art_from_Ark]

168. Well, the "free-tas" are a little different from the "seisha-in"

"Free-tas" フリーター usually have some part-time job or jobs and move on to the next one when they get bored. They usually work 40 or fewer hours a week.

"Seisha-in"　正社員 are the ones who put in the long hours at one company.

There are three or four "free-tas" in my neighborhood. One I call "Boo Bradley" because he never comes out in the daytime and always has his curtains closed.

[Withywindle]

108. Any studies about what the young women think?

Oh, wait, "good" women aren't supposed to want sex. Obviously, no mating is ever going to happen if men aren't pushing it on them. :sarcasm:

And, as other people have posted, if birth control is discouraged in Japanese culture, then obviously that's going to be a reason why people of both genders who are feeling financially insecure might hold off on PIV intercourse*






*which is by no means the only form of pleasurable sex.

[comtec]

112. It is seen as the man's duty to start and maintain a family

the reality of course is BOTH are required.
But that is why only young men were asked.
the man is expected to initiate the relationship, etc, not the woman.

I can easily see young men looking at the state of the world and saying "Fuckit"

Is it on the women?
To a point. It takes two to tango, but if it seems like you are only going to fail, then why try?

[Withywindle]

116. That was the point of my question.

What women want is a factor too. There are almost 4 billion individual women in the world, and we differ in our tastes and desires as much as the 3.5 billion men in the world do.

Some women want to be the pursuer in relationships. That is the truth. Some women only want a man of THEIR choice, not a man who chose them.

Some women want a man, but no children ever. Some women want children, but no man. Some women want other women. Some women don't want sex at all, with anyone.

No one is ENTITLED to a spouse or boy/girlfriend. It's incumbent on everyone, all around the world, to find someone they get along with well.

[Art_from_Ark]

113. In Japan, "good" women aren't supposed to want sex...

...unless it's for procreation.

[Withywindle]

121. Sadly true in the US too, in some circles.

That doesn't mean men are the victims to be pitied.

I mean, if Japanese women are beaten down that hard that their sex drives are totally gone, it is NICE of the men to not pressure or rape them. Good for them. If all this is true, I'm not surprised that many young men with good ethics want out. Who wants to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have it with you? Who can enjoy sex that's only achieved by pressuring someone else against their will? A rapist, that's who. Obviously the young Japanese men in this study are not rapists, and would rather not have sex at all than risk hurting someone. What's so bad about that?


But really, the main source of the problem is the idea that women who want sex are shamed. If you took slut-shaming out of the culture altogether (all over the world), I think you would have healthier sexuality everywhere. Alas, we are a long, long way away from that.

[Withywindle]

126. Yeah, I get that, but I'm in fandom

the online community that is pretty much all about women's sexual fantasies based on media factors.

My area of interest is Western media (mostly books), but if you ever go into this realm, let's not even talk about what Japanese women express through anime, manga, and dojounshi. EXTREMELY kinky fantasies, no holds barred; many of them involve getting off on watching men together.

Japanese women have an AMAZING erotic imagination. Just look at the manga that are written and drawn by women, aimed at female audiences.

I've seen them, and it makes me think that the "problem" isn't that Japanese women aren't sexually imaginative enough, it's that they're TOO much so for the men. Maybe the men are looking for a chaste virgin wife with no sexual ideas, and meanwhile the young women are like, "I saw this hot pegging scenario in this manga, I want a man who'll bend over for me!"

[Art_from_Ark]

130. I get the distinct impression that your last scenario

is mostly limited to the realm of fantasy. Japanese women might have some wild fantasies, but keeping them in the world of manga means 1) they can't get pregnant, 2) they can't get a disease, 3) they don't have to take a chance on getting intimate with the wrong man.

[Withywindle]

131. Understood, and that is pretty much what women's fantasies are about

all over the the world: being allowed to be wild and horny without bad results.

I expect that's what men's fantasies are about too. The fact is that all over the world, acting out these fantasies in real life has wayyy more negatively life-changing effects on women (in terms of disease and unplanned pregnancy.)


Mind you, I think it's pretty normal that women are happy with their fantasies and vibrators. I would expect the same of young men. Engaging with a partner is way more difficult and risky for both!

[AsahinaKimi]

140. dojinshi

If you are speaking of self published manga, the term is Dōjinshi. 同人誌

[krispos42]

118. So I might have better luck moving to Japan?

Yay!

[Withywindle]

127. Yeah if you DON'T want to get laid.

That's a very good place to go to not get laid, whatever your gender or orientation.

[Art_from_Ark]

135. Japan has other options for desperate men

They're often listed in the ads in the back of "sports newspapers".

[AsahinaKimi]

141. Don't bet on it...

Seriously..

[grahamhgreen]

138. They sure have a lot of brothels, though! nt

[Art_from_Ark]

149. Not brothels per se

Technically, brothels are illegal. They get around that law through "telekura" or similar system where the man can arrange to meet with some hooker at a hotel.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

156. Or "soaplands" where young womem "bathe" the customers

Or hostess bars where the hostesses technically are only supposed to talk to the customers and serve them drinks but may actually do a little free-lance prostitution on the side.

[grahamhgreen]

160. Technically,

only intercourse is illegal, from what I understand...

[Art_from_Ark]

164. They're not really brothels in the sense of being a house of hookers

waiting for customers. From what I've heard, some of the "soaplands" that Lydia mentioned have rooms for after-bath liaisons, but there is the occasional notice in the newspaper of police raids on such places because of, apparently, the type of violation you mentioned.

[miyazaki]

146. And in other news, millions of jps live normal, happy lives

with plenty of healthy sex. My God.

[Skidmore]

159. Too much soy in the diet...

[wuushew]

161. kick

:kick:

[MoonRiver]

162. Effect of Mercury poisoning from all the whales and dolphins

children are force fed in schools? Just asking. I don't know if reduced sexual interest is an effect of Mercury poisoning, which many Japanese are undoubtedly suffering from. NO LINK, JUST SPECULATION.

[yourout]

167. At that age that was just about all I was interested in.

Sorry to say back then I had and over active libido. Wait a minute......I still do.