Can you live on $9 an hour? Care to prove it?

[yardwork]

Play the game. This was put together by an advertising firm and an urban ministry that provides help to the homeless. It presents real-life choices. See how you do:

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2011/09/26/7926328-can-you-live-on-9-an-hour-play-the-game

[hobbit709]

1. Link says $9 an hour.

Which is more than a lot of people make.

[yardwork]

2. Oops. Typo corrected. It is $9 an hour. Take the test. It's interesting.

[hobbit709]

6. don't need to. I get by on about $12K a year.

If I didn't have healthcare through the VA, I'd be dead by now since I can't afford the $800/mo my meds would cost me otherwise. And I can't collect SS until next summer.

[yardwork]

24. That's why I posted this, so that other people can learn.

[Ter]

90. How do you pay rent/mortgage with that little?

That's just $1,000 a year.

[hobbit709]

117. That's a $1000/mo and the house is paid off.

So I only need about $3000 a year for taxes and insurance.

[Cresent City Kid]

5. I made $8.50/hour for a while

All I proved is that you can avoid death, "living" is more loosely defined.

[xmas74]

3. I'm living on less.

Then again, I'm barely surviving. I'm not really "living".

[yardwork]

22. Having walked through this exercise, I can see that. I posted this so that others can learn.

[napoleon_in_rags]

119. I've lived on around that.

You rent a room in a house, you ride a bike, and you barely get by. But that's where more and more people are. I feel for you.

[xmas74]

121. Multigenerational home, I walk everywhere or beg for rides

(had to sell vehicle to pay the bills) and I still barely get by. In the past few years I've lost over 2/3 of my income. Lay-offs hurt, not just the person who lost their job but everyone around them.

I've lost most of my friends since the lay-off, since I can no longer afford to go anywhere or do anything. They seem to feel uncomfortable around me and just dump me. Losing that last bit of support really hurt. They don't want to be seen with someone who has holes in their shoes from walking all the time, who patches up everything they own, and who waits on their kids in cafeterias.

[napoleon_in_rags]

123. Well, don't ever be ashamed.

I'm a little bit in the same boat, and been their FULLY in the past. I know how that feels. The cruelest thing is that sense of shame, the way our society tells you that you're a bad if you don't have as much. Really all that shows though is the fake nature of these social connections, for many people their personal relationships are as deep as the relationship they have with a used car dealer: he's your best friend, until he finds out you don't have money to buy. People live out their whole lives that that.

At the same time, don't let your own sense of shame make you a downer when you hang out with friends. IT may be that you are looking like you aren't having a good time, they think its them, and leave you alone. Never forget YOU as an individual have worth and value, and that has nothing to do with how much you have, no matter what all the used car salesman types want you to think!!! :):):)

[xmas74]

132. Mine was the social class.

They left shortly after I lost my job. I suggested free activities while they still wanted to go out and spend lots of money. I lost most of them within the first couple of months after the lay off. A few won't even look in my direction in passing, pretending that I no longer exist. One harassed me a bit when I was working a catering; I served their table and they made snide comments in my direction.

I've learned so much about people since everything happened. I already had trust issues with romantic relationships and have since found out that I attracted similar persons for friendships. I'm learning quite a bit about myself while alone.

I felt a bit ashamed this morning. I received a call from my kid's school, informing me that I had to pick her up ASAP. I said it would be a while since I had to walk from work. She wanted to know if someone could come get her but I had to admit there was no one. So, I walked three miles from work to the school and then called a cab to take us home, since I couldn't have her walking.

Being poor sucks. I had to pay for a cab and now will miss a day of work, which means a day of pay.

[napoleon_in_rags]

134. Well don't give up on people.

It good to recognize that you had the wrong kind of people in your life before, this all may be a positive thing yet... My two cents is don't give up on people. Go out, become a part of something, network. Whatever it takes get out there and build those networks. This thing may get worse yet, in terms of the traditional financial system. But all this system was - jobs, money and the rest - was a way to organize people to do tasks to further the human endeavor of survival. If it starts getting worse, you need to be associated with a group of people who understand this, and are willing to organize to support each other and divide labor between each other.

We are at a time when the old system is beginning to fail us all, which may seem like an abstract philosophical point in terms of your person struggles, but there is one VERY important thing you can take from it: YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

Peace

[Obamanaut]

4. I know people who do, and it's real life - not playing a game. nt

[yardwork]

8. That's the point of the OP. It's not meant to be a fun game.

Sorry if my OP was not clear. This is not meant to be for fun. I often hear politicians say that poor people are poor only because they are making the wrong choices. The Republican speaker of the House in North Carolina recently said this. http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/10/12/1558951/tillis-targets-public-assistance.html

[William769]

7. If you take my yearly income it comes out to 12.25 an hour.

I can't make it on that! I take about six thousand dollars a year out of my savings just to make ends meet, at this rate I have about five years left of savings if prices were frozen today.

I would not know what to do with $9 an hour & no savings.

Recommended.

[yardwork]

10. Thanks for reccing. This OP seems to have hit a nerve.

[William769]

14. I know the feeling. I seem to work on peoples nerves all the time.

[yardwork]

16. Thanks. Hugs back to you.

[taterguy]

9. Interesting concept but that game is even more rigged than real life

There are ways to save $ that aren't choices, like renting an apartment that's not as nice as one you'd like to live in, and foregoing auto expenses when possible.

I guess it is like real life in one way though: The only way to win is to cheat.

[yardwork]

11. Did you actually play it? Those choices are provided.

[taterguy]

18. Yes I played it

If you move closer to work, your rent increases. There's no option for finding a shittier place to live.

Transportation costs are not variable, depending on what mode of transport you use.

Maybe it's just my browser.

:shrug:

[yardwork]

21. Ok, so it doesn't replicate reality 100%. But don't you agree that it presents some stark facts?

I think of myself as a progressive who is informed about poverty, but "playing" that game was an eye-opener for me. I believe that a lot of affluent people believe, deep down, that poverty is something that happens to "other people" and that poverty is based mostly on making poor choices. Walking through this exercise shows people how stark things are.

[saras]

102. It presents the stark fact that the poor can't follow the rules and live.

The poor have always known this.

Most of the middle class suspects it, and that, even more than not having luxury and convenience, is what terrifies them about becoming poor. The middle class is full of people who learned to follow the rules young, and have been lucky enough to mostly be rewarded for it. To have to live in a world where the rules don't work, yet you're punished if you get caught disobeying them, is beyond their experience. As a middle-class person, you might have to face this once or twice in your life, as a whistleblower or a protestor. And it's a big, dramatic moral decision.

And one reason the poor are so often defensive about it is that they don't like being cornered into explaining just what laws they break to get by. Other people make different choices, and are often real sensitive about them.

But as far as the quiz goes, no, it includes very few of the things I've done to get by while poor, legal or not. It really just gives the default actions for the uncreative and inflexible.

[yardwork]

108. One of the slaps was the $5 bank fee for having less than $50 in the account.

Thank you for bringing up the question of living within the law, not to mention the "moral" life that the middle class values so highly.

[Marrah_G]

128. Really- because I have had to make all those choices- multiple times.

And frankly I can remember lots of weeks where food consisted of the cheapest, pasta, sauce, hotdogs and ramen noodles available. I remember times where store brand mac and cheese was off the list because it meant butter and milk had to be bought.

I've driven broken cars, banged up cars, cars without insurance or inspection sticker or registration. I've suffered the consequences of those choices. The game seemed VERY real to me.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

12. the game is bullshit

but i acknowledge that it is nigh on impossible to make it on $9 per month.

sP

[yardwork]

13. Why is the game bullshit?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

19. sooo many assumptions...

but you go ahead and think it is what everyone gets...

sP

[yardwork]

20. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

27. yes you do...but that's ok...

sP

[Bladian]

122. What's the point in being so cryptic?

[rucky]

26. it's true that some people get lucky

but why should chance play into the game of working for basic needs - at all?

It wasn't designed to be a full simulation, it follows a decision tree that people earning more don't necessarily have to face.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. i understand how it works and what its point is

i just would prefer they put up a table and explain it...but that's me.

sP

[yardwork]

34. Why don't you go ahead and put up a table and explain it. I'll read with interest.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. um...no...

but just because i choose not to play YOUR little game doesn't mean the online one isn't bullshit.

sP

[Iggo]

67. He's playing your game. Now you play his. (n/t)

[rucky]

95. That's a bit more constructive than "this game is bullshit" n/t

[yardwork]

31. Exactly. "A decision tree that people earning more don't have to face."

As I worked my way through the questions I realized over and over again that I don't have to CHOOSE between advocating for my children and keeping my job. I don't have to CHOOSE between paying for car insurance or buying groceries. When a person is making $9 an hour, their life is full of lousy choices, and every day takes them deeper into trouble.

At one point in the simulation I was asked if I would let the friend of a friend sleep on my couch in return for some money. I jumped at it, of course. In news reports of crime stories the perpetrators of violence against children are often boyfriends or acquaintances hanging around the house. We often see posts saying, "Why did the mom let this shady boyfriend hang around her children? It's her fault!" This simulation shows why so many women allow people they don't know that well into their homes. That's just one example.

[Mimosa]

125. So many people don't really know poor people...

or older people who are living on section 8, food assistance and $650 a month.

I've known poor people all my life. I'm scared as I can be of becoming more poor. :(

[Ter]

94. I can't speak for him...

But no waiter makes a mere $9/hr. It also assumes I have kids and pets.

[yardwork]

97. Lots of female waitresses make that or less, and they're taxed at the minimum wage.

Many female waitresses in the U.S. work at diners serving breakfast, etc. They're paid a couple of dollars an hour (this is legal) with the idea that they'll make up the rest in tips. But people don't tip much at diners, all-night breakfast places, truck stops, etc.

[Ter]

130. Why do you specifically mention female?

Are you implying females make less as servers than males do? That is not true. Many if not most females make more tips than the guys. Sad to say, most people tip a female more than a male. I have. I'd rather have a female server and always tip more, and when I was a waiter, most girls made a bit more cash than I did.

I worked in breakfast places and I know the minimum wage is low. My check was for $40-$50 a week, but it didn't matter. I also worked in a diner where a putrid day would be $75 after tips, and a good day $150 (mornings too). Round that off to $100 a day, 5 days a week. $500 a week, plus $50 for check would be $550. Times that by four and that's roughly $2,200 a week. Not great but not awful.

[justabob]

136. lots and lots of waiters make 9/hr

I have waited tables and worked in restaurants for most of my adult life. Yes, there are many waiters who do better than that, but 9/hr is about right for the majority of chain casual dining jobs.

[Marrah_G]

129. Seemed pretty real to me

[Fumesucker]

15. If you're talking about $18,000/year then I'm living on a whole lot less than that..

It can be done but it's a long, long way away from anything remotely resembling fun..

[yardwork]

17. That's the point. I posted this for people who have a lot more and don't realize what it's like.

For some reason this OP is being recced down and responses seem to think that I posted this for fun.

[xchrom]

23. Recommend

[yardwork]

25. Thank you. I think it's sad that it's being unrecced. I guess a lot of people don't want to know

what it's like to be poor. This reminds me of the response to Barbara Ehrenreich's book, Nickle and Dimed. People were furious for her for daring to write about what it's like to try to live on minimum wage.

[xchrom]

36. i posted this same thing, a while back. you're getting

much better and more responses than i got.


as always, yardwork, you rock.

[yardwork]

38. Unbelievable. On a supposedly progressive board, people have hysterics when confronted with poverty.

Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks for your support and your rec. And YOU ROCK TOO. I always loves your posts. :toast:

[xchrom]

40. i'm not as smart or quick as you are -- but thanks.

:toast:

[yardwork]

41. Yeah you are.

[supernova]

29. Kick and Rec

Yes, the simulation is more "rigged" than real life. Most people don't usually have a calamity of the week, thank goodness. None the less, it's a good practice for those who have the means to just fix everything when it happens. Many people don't have the resources to resolve all their problems (the car or the drs appt, for example) all at once. It is good to remember that sometimes what looks to an outsider as a poor choice is really the least bad among several progressively worse options.

[yardwork]

33. Thanks.

[Arkansas Granny]

30. I've had to make similar choices when I was raising my kids and it's not easy.

If you've never lived poor, you don't realize how hard it is.

[yardwork]

32. That's why I posted this. I hope more people will become informed.

People say all the time that poor people are at fault for their "bad choices." This simulation makes it very obvious why people make seemingly bad choices. They don't have any choice.

[lonestarnot]

35. That's no game, dat's reality!

[yardwork]

39. That's the point!

[Starry Messenger]

42. k&r

I've also lived this game.

[yardwork]

43. Thank you.

[blueamy66]

44. Who has a grand in the bank?

nt

[yardwork]

45. Fast forward a month or two and it will be gone.

When I did the simulation I managed to make it through the first month by ignoring most of my bills, buying very little food, and postponing all medical care. I ended up with about $200 as my month's rent was due. That would have wiped out most of the $1,000 I had in the simulated bank. So the following month what was I going to do?

[Arkansas Granny]

46. It's certainly not the people who work for $9.00/hr.

[blueamy66]

105. And certainly not me.

:-)

[BiggJawn]

47. Lost my car, lost my job, and I have an asshole couch surfing...

And I still don't have enough to make the rent.

Yep, just like I remembered it from 30 years ago.

[yardwork]

48. Was the simulation fairly accurate? It's being challenged here.

[BiggJawn]

58. I think it was.

The deck is stacked against you in real life. Now, I question the page where you are trying to decide where to live, but I imagine there are a lot of places in this country where you can't find anything for less than $800 less than 20 miles from the "big city". My experience is that you can find a place in this area for less than $500 (I pay $425 for 2 bedrooms)But like they say, YMMV...

I remember the frustrations of playing "Checkbook Roulette", living for a week on 2# of cheap baloney and a loaf of bread. Using past experience to decide which utility bill HAD to be paid by the disconnect date and which utility would take 3-4 days to getting around to pulling your meter. Pawnshops. Staying up till midnight, trying to patch up the car so I could go to work the next morning. Driving without car insurance. Forgoing dental care, going to the local dental school ONLY when the pain got too much.

By the time I got to the end of the simulation I was feeling frustrated and a little frantic, just like in the bad old days.

People complaining it wasn't "realistic" enough need to go back to their X-boxes and play some more WoW.

[yardwork]

62. Thank you for telling us about this.

This simulation was put together by Urban Ministries in Durham, North Carolina and I think it is accurate for our region. People can find cheaper housing, but they would have to trade off safety. This simulation glossed that over. Transportation costs are a serious problem here as this metropolitan area is spread out and people have to commute long distances. In fact, the Raleigh-Durham area has the longest average commutes (measured in miles, not time on the road) of any area in the country. 20-40 mile commutes are very common here.

[BiggJawn]

85. I lived in Indianapolis back then.

"Public Transportation" and "Indianapolis" are only used together like, if you are saying "Public Transportation in Indianapolis is a sick fucking JOKE!".

The last placed I lived in Indy was downtown, 20 blocks from my job (for a lot more than $9 an hour) I could walk it faster than the bus would take me. I could take a bus that would get me there 2 hours early, or 20 minutes late. On the way home, I would have had to cool my heels for an hour to catch the bus home, and that was the LAST northbound of the day! And it hasn't gotten any better.
You have to have a car to survive in that town.

I presently have a 17-mile commute to work. It saves me almost $300 a month on rent. This is a rural area.

[morningglory]

49. I live very well on $9/hr. We own our shanty, drive used cars,

and my husband and I get social security as a supplement.

[eridani]

87. The home ownership is key

I could probably do it with a paid off house. Even then it would be hard. Driving used cars doesn't cut our $1000/year care insurance much, and we are accident free and between the ages of 25 and 74, so no age related premium boosts.

[Liberal_in_LA]

120. you beat me to it. In Los Angeles, housing cost is huge. Car insurance about $2000 year here

[Phentex]

50. I ended up with $469.00 but rent is due tomorrow. However, I would have...

made so many different choices when I was younger. It's hard to play this game looking through 30 years of experience.

Sadly, this game is very realistic.

[yardwork]

51. I was thinking the same thing. How many twenty year olds can be so disciplined?

[locahungaria]

52. I've lived this game....

....and no, it ain't fun.

Thanks for posting and rec'd!

[yardwork]

53. Thank you!

[locahungaria]

54. You are very welcome!

People truly need to get an idea of how quickly you start falling and how slippery the slope is once your house of cards starts to crumble.

It can happen to most all of us....

I appreciate your effort.

[yardwork]

56. I appreciate your posting truth to power.

[Lucky Luciano]

55. I know that I have no hope on $9/hr. Don't have to take the test.

Will do it anyway for kicks.

[Vinca]

57. It depends on where you live whether you can exist on $9 an hour.

Urban areas, for example, are far move expensive than rural areas, generally speaking.

[yardwork]

59. That's a good point, but jobs can be scarcer in rural areas, too.

This simulation was put together by the Urban Ministries in Durham, North Carolina, which is a small city in North Carolina that is part of a fairly expensive metropolitan area. The rent and cost of transportation is accurate for this region.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

79. no it is not accurate for durham nc

i just found a whole page of 2 bedroom 1-1.5 bath apartments for under $700 and most of them less than a mile from Duke university.

sP

[yardwork]

81. Ok, so give yourself a couple hundred extra dollars a month.

[Warpy]

60. I lived on $800/month for 3 years

when the mortgage took the first $560. I did it by going off half the drugs that were keeping me out of a wheelchair, by reading magazines and newspapers at the library, by eating a very boring diet of the cheapest stuff I could find (bulk beans and rice and cheap root veggies).

This is what most boomers have to look forward to in retirement since pensions have been looted and the value of any assets they've ever held has deflated. This is the lavish lifestyle social security will buy them.

And it is horrible.

I managed to stay out of the wheelchair on reduced drugs although I walk real funny now.

I'm the 99%.

[yardwork]

63. Hugs to you, Warpy. Thank you for posting about your experience. People need to know.

[Warpy]

72. I was extremely lucky and I know it

because I got a pleasant surprise when my dad died. I knew selling his house would pay mine off and buy me some usable eyesight, but he left me enough stock for a solid 5 figure income. Not many of us are going to be that lucky, I'm afraid, and the lavish lifestyle I experienced is soon going to be the norm for anyone over 62, especially since so many of us are having to spend down everything we've managed to save during our working lives because of the gap between the corporate expiration date (55) and the earliest we can collect SS.

Yes, they need to know it. It's terrifying. And it shouldn't be this way.

[one_voice]

61. We need a LIVING wage not...

a MINIMUM wage.


edited to add K&R :-)

[yardwork]

64. Yes. This simulation explains why OWS exists. Thank you.

[hfojvt]

65. already proved it in real life

right now I live on $14.50 an hour for a part time job. The equivalent of $7.25 an hour for full time. Actually,less because I pay about $3,400 for insurance too. Which knocks me back to about $5.75 an hour (except when I get extra hours, like now as my supervisor retired and I fill in).

It helps to have a house that is fully paid for.

[yardwork]

66. If you get a chance to do the simulation, please let us know how accurate it is.

Thanks.

[hfojvt]

99. it made me a single parent, which I am not

and it also gave me expensive rent, which I have never faced.

that seems accurate to me, in that many people do face expensive rent, and I don't know how they pay it. Paying $8,400 on rent on an $18,000 a year salary would be quite a squeeze. I never paid that much rent, but I also never lived in a major urban area. The closest I came was Lincoln, Ne and rent was very cheap there (even cheaper in the place I considered to be too dumpy to live in).

I've almost always been able to live without a car, and not everybody is healthy enough to do that, and also it is probably much more dangerous for a woman to be alone on a bicycle than it is for a man/boy.

I don't like to see it over-stated, like it is impossible to live on $9 an hour, but it's not a cakewalk, life of Riley either. Most of the real poor people a person can see, are clearly spending money on non-essentials, like cell phones and cigarettes and tatoos. I have money for luxuries too - 3 dogs and 3 computers.

But children also add huge expenses to the mix, and most people don't start out $5,000 ahead like I did either.

[WinkyDink]

68. No. I've read "Nickel and Dimed."

[yardwork]

70. This is getting a similar reaction. Hysteria.

[bbinacan]

69. This game is mostly hyperbole.

While I appreciate the intent, the game is flawed with too many assumptions designed for a predetermined result. To be more accurate, you should be able to adjust costs like housing to real world scenarios. Also, I'd like to be able to run it as single earner with no kids and no pets. They also throw the kitchen sink of problems at you in one month. Though this is possible, it's very unlikely to occur every month. I suggest that the scenario be run aver a year with the unforeseen problems spread out. As these problems arise, show the effect relative to cash flow over a longer period.

[yardwork]

73. As I've posted upthread, the housing costs are fairly accurate for this region.

No simulation is 100% accurate. The purpose of this is to make people think about the stark choices that people earning minimum wage have to face. The entire Republican platform is based on the assurance that people are only poor because they've made poor choices. This simulation helps show how untrue that is.

[bbinacan]

76. The housing cost is way off

for this area. A quick look at the classifieds here would be closer to $500/mo. That's why it'd be nice to account for that.

[yardwork]

82. Give yourself a couple hundred more each month. Doesn't help much.

[bbinacan]

83. Sure it does. n/t

[yardwork]

88. How so? Using this somewhat extreme simulation I ran out of money the first month.

Softening the blows might extend survival a year or two at the most, but the overall point remains - living on $9 an hour is extremely difficult for single parents. There are millions of single parents in the U.S. They are raising the next generation.

We can argue and quibble over a couple hundred here or there but it's not going to change the overall picture.

[bbinacan]

96. In my scenario

I had $68 left. So another $300 would certainly be substantial.

[yardwork]

98. You have $368 but your $500 rent is due.

[bbinacan]

101. And I get paid again

new month, new budget.

[yardwork]

107. You're starting the new month with a deficit, and you ended this month with a deficit.

Even with the theoretical $1,000 in the bank, you're going to run out of money soon.

[bbinacan]

114. Not in the scenario I ran. n/t

[Speck Tater]

71. So much depends on where you live.

I'm comfortable on a retirement income equivalent to $6.23/hr.

On Edit: After taking the test most doesn't apply to me.

No kids at home. Single, living alone. Retired so no work transportation costs. Have Medicare. House paid for on acreage for garden, fruit trees, grapes and berries in abundance. Buy most food in bulk at restaurant wholesale supply house. Etc.

There's no way I could live on that amount in the city having to work and pay rent an raise a kid or two. It's pretty scary.

[Lucky Luciano]

74. Overall the game is very inaccuracte...

in the sense that nto every month has this many disasters happening 1-2 times per week. So, it is not a typical month at all. However, over the course of a year or two of living like this, I can see how someone could have one particularly bad month that cleans them out and pushes them to the local tent city.

[yardwork]

75. Most people wouldn't crash and burn the first month, but over a year or two the odds are bad.

Thanks for posting your thoughts about it.

[BuelahWitch]

77. I ended up with $139 and rent is due!

I decided to pay the gas and electric bills, but have no job b/c the boss found out I talked to the union rep

I would imagine quite a few people in my town live like this. Wages are fairly low because it's a college town, but jobs that pay more near Kansas City require long commutes. I have worked at jobs paying $9 an hour in the recent past, but it's very tight. I'm lucky I don't have a child or a car payment, but there is very little left for emergencies with this type of paycheck.

I can't imagine why you're getting so much hostility in this thread. This is reality for a great many people.

[yardwork]

80. I cravenly ignored the union guy so I still have a job but it's shaky because of child care.

I kept taking time off work to support my child at school so I'm in trouble at work. I ended the month with a few hundred dollars but no car insurance, some unpaid bills, and rent due. Also, I don't know how we're going to eat on the few cans of beans and spaghetti sauce I bought for the month.

Thanks for your post.

[RegieRocker]

78. $9.00 an hour pays my taxes.

[hunter]

84. Why can't I live in an illegal garage conversion with a bunch of people?

And then, six or seven days a week, hike on down to the grocery store parking lot and hop the farm labor bus to whichever crops need tending.

Okay, here's a hoe. Take out the super-weeds the herbicides didn't kill. Don't worry about the pesticides, they won't hurt you, no, really. Don't complain. Complainers don't get work.

Take bus home. Crash dead tired. Repeat.

One day a week pay share of rent, wash clothes, purchase absolute necessities, wire rest of income home to family in Mexico.

=================================

That's the reality in my city. For those who are homeless and unable to work it's even worse. They live under tarps and make money filling shopping carts with cans and bottles and bits of metal which they sell at the recycling centers. There's always a big line of them at the recycling center in the morning before it opens.

When my kids were small I used to give my recyclables to a schizophrenic grandmother bag lady who reminded me much of my own grandma. She'd see my kids playing and share a few words with them and that always seemed to make her happy. One week she didn't come around, and I heard she was in the county hospital. They'd found her collapsed on the sidewalk. Then she died.

My own grandma had a house and a retirement income but she was a hoarder in addition to her other crazy and she was evicted by the police and paramedics because she was a danger to herself and others. She fought them all the way, kicking, clawing, screaming, and biting. From then on, whenever she was stable and not confined to a nursing facility, she lived with my parents. The hoarding impulse never left her. I'd push her around in her wheelchair which held eighty pounds of little old lady and a similar volume of trash tied up in plastic bags.

Americans who make a comfortable living are well insulated from the horrors of poverty, but they know it's there, and it hangs over their heads as a horrible threat, which makes them fearful and compliant workers.

The greatest danger to the American economy today is well educated formerly middle class people who have lost everything. The mass media machine won't be able to placate them with propaganda and fear mongering much longer.

[yardwork]

92. "fearful and compliant workers." Yes.

[Logical]

86. Thanks for this post. I have no idea why it made some whiners mad!

[yardwork]

89. Don't you? I have a pretty good idea why this makes some people mad.

Deep down, some people want to believe that the American dream is true and that everybody can be rich if they simply work hard enough. They want to believe that our system is basically fair and that the poor are poor because they've made the wrong choices.

Many people don't want to face the fact that our entire economic system is unfair and is based on the exploitation of the many for the enrichment of the very few.

And so, when faced with these facts, some people get very upset and attack the messengers.

[Logical]

91. Well, it is a lesson many need to learn. Thanks for posting.

[yardwork]

93. Thank you.

[xmas74]

133. It didn't make me mad.

I live it. Sometimes I hate thinking about it.

[marlakay]

100. It all depends on what your housing costs

Or whether you own outright. What are your bills? How many people are you feeding? Do you have animals? Healthcare...how old are you? A million things could cause one person to need more than another.

[eallen]

103. Much depends on who you are. Single, healthy, and young? That's a snap.

Single mom with three kids and diabetes? That's much harder.

:hippie:

[SoCalDem]

104. A single mom with one child can live easily on $10 an hour

468622, A single mom with one child can live easily on $10 an hour

Posted by SoCalDem on Wed Mar-21-07 04:09 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=468622


IF they can both eat on $2.88 a month and no one gets sick...or the car does not break down..and she drives with no car insurance..and the kid never outgrows clothing or shoes

[yardwork]

110. Thank you.

[uppityperson]

106. The choices they gave were limiting, but the whole thing was interesting. Thanks.

People should not have to make those sorts of choices.

[yardwork]

109. Thank you for posting.

[uppityperson]

111. you are welcome, I get what this is about rather than being mad at you for posting it

Shouldn't have to consider whether or not you can afford to take your child, or yourself, to a doctor. Shouldn't have to worry about being fired for talking to a union. Shouldn't have to make the choice between stealing food or supplies from work or going hungry, or even having no toilet paper.

[yardwork]

112. Yes.

[rbnyc]

113. I played the game and it was pretty much like my life...

...skipping the dentist, not going to my great aunt's funeral because I couldn't afford it, telling my son he can't get anything from the ice cream truck. The only difference is in this game I opted out of health insurance. In my life, I pay $500 a month for health insurance that I can't afford to use.

If I had that $500 a month, my family would not be struggling at all. We would be able to pay our basic cost of living, save a little money, and sometimes even be able to buy new clothes, go to the dentist and let my kid get something from the ice cream truck every now and then. And if my employer didn't have to pay the other $1000 a month for my family health insurance premium, my employer would probably give me at least half of that in my salary. Then we could save more money and even go out to dinner every once in a while.

[yardwork]

115. Universal health care would make a huge difference in the lives of millions of people.

Thank you for posting here, and thank you for your courage. Your son is lucky to have you as his parent.

[rbnyc]

116. aw. thanks so much.

i'm lucky to have him!

[glowing]

118. My hubby and I both contribute. He makes a bit more and me a dollar more.

Without each other, no, we could not live on our pay alone.

[Marrah_G]

124. No- I make a little less then that at my second job

40 hours pays less then 300 dollars. If it were not for child support and a better wage at my first ( and now part time) job I would be screwed. My rent alone is 925 heat/hw included. before someone says get a cheaper place... this is the cheaper place....

[burrowowl]

126. Barely, if you are

single, live in a civilzed country with universal health care, free education, good public transportation, etc. If not, notreally. Barely survive and if you get sick, die.

[Initech]

127. I live on $12 an hour - that should not be legally considered a wage anywhere.

It sucks to no end.

[Capitalocracy]

131. I'd be lucky to make minimum wage at the moment. nt

[Prism]

135. I live on $10.50 an hour very comfortably

But there are some caveats.

-I have a job with full benefits.
- I lucked into a great apartment in a nice town that is generally cheaper than most others in the Bay Area.
- I have no children
- I do not drive (using a bike or public transportation to get where I need to go and borrowing a car if I absolutely need)
- I'm youngish (32) and have no health problems.

On my wage, I can pay rent and utilities easily. For food, I'm familiar with the stores in the area and know where to go to get the best deals. One of my biggest money savers was changing out regular meat for tofu (.79-$1.00 a pack with 50g of protein at the local asian market).

But I have things like HD cable, I go out and attend concerts and things, I pay for full-time school, I have a gym membership, and I travel back to east to visit family every few months.

But even with all that, I still have a few hundred left over every month to save and splurge on the odd item I want or need.

I'm actually very frugal and don't have a lot of trouble making this work for the time being (I trust I'll have a much, much, much better paying job once my current degree is finished. I'm optimistic like that).

However, I'm aware my youth is giving me an advantage here. If I had an expensive illness, it could potentially wreck me if my insurance hoses me. If I had to replace my bike suddenly, since I use it to commute, things might get tight for a few months.

But it's doable. I grew up poor/working class. I worked in financials for awhile and lived very well for most of my 20s. After I moved, employment was non-existent and I blew through my savings. So, I'm in this position. But growing up poor and always working for what you want and need sort of honed my survival skills. I just do not throw money out on wants over needs. Yes, there are things I want. But at the end of the day, I make choices. I want a new computer. Instead of using the money I have now, I've decided to work a second job to devote solely to that computer. That want can't intrude upon my needs situation. So that's how that goes.

But this works for me. It doesn't work for everyone. Someone with children couldn't do what I do. Someone who is sick couldn't do what I do. Someone who needed tons of dental work couldn't subsist as I do. I recognize that. And recognizing that, and not saying "Tch, I'm fine. You should be, too!" is what separates the assholes from those who realize we need economic security and economic justice.

I'm lucky. But we shouldn't have to count on luck for our survival and our happiness.