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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:33 AM
Original message
Sirte destroyed by NTC-NATO offensive in Libya
18 October 2011
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/oct2011/liby-o18.shtml


The Libyan town of Sirte has been all but destroyed and its inhabitants turned into homeless refugees. This situation has gone largely unreported, but those press reports that have emerged paint a picture of a city being reduced to ruins by attacks of the National Transitional Council (NTC) “rebels” and NATO bombing raids against which it has no defense.

“After weeks of intense fighting, Moammar Gaddafi’s home town appeared Saturday to have been largely destroyed, with most of its population fled and holes the size of manhole covers blown in apartment buildings and the ousted leader’s showcase convention center,” writes the Washington Post of Muammar Gaddafi’s coastal hometown of around 100,000 residents. ... Once considered to be a showpiece of urban development in Libya, Sirte has been the target of NATO bombing and NTC attacks since shortly after the fall of Tripoli in late August. In the last ten days, it has been the object of an intensified offensive. The Post states that “the damage wreaked in Sirte raises the question of whether its residents will go quietly into the post-Gaddafi future—or retain a smouldering anger that could fuel an insurgency.”

The Telegraph in Britain, which backs Gaddafi’s ouster, nevertheless comments that Sirte, which once had “a brilliant panoply of university and hospitals, with a glittering seafront and a marble-lined conference centre to host leaders from around the world,” is now “a squalid ruin.” ... “Rebel fighters gazing at the devastation concede it is difficult to see how much of it could ever be repaired and made habitable again,” it notes. “The shattered remains of housing blocks and the wreckage of once comfortable homes…are more reminiscent of the grimmest scenes from Grozny, towards the end of Russia’s bloody Chechen war, than of anything seen in Libya so far. And the area around the grid of streets where anything between 200 and 500 loyalists are still holding out have become a killing ground, with loyalists, civilians and forces of the new Libyan government dying by the day.”

Former residents who have returned “found almost every house and building either damaged by a rocket or mortar, burned out or riddled with bullets. Water floods the streets and the city’s infrastructure is in tatters,” writes Reuters. ... These events shatter the pretences on which the NATO war against Libya was launched—i.e. claims that the possibility that Gaddafi might carry out mass reprisals against protesters justified a NATO intervention to disarm him. Far from planning reprisals against defenceless protesters, the Libyan army soon faced a war in which they were outclassed by NATO forces intervening to support the “rebels.” Reports from Sirte now suggest that the NTC forces are now carrying out collective punishment in the city.

much more at: The War in Libya:

http://www.wsws.org/category/libwar.shtml

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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here's a link that has an OP with tons of info of what's going on
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. why, thanks!
Edited on Tue Oct-18-11 03:30 AM by inna
ETA: I happen to be a, um, connoisseur of sorts of that particular series! :D
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:02 AM
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. Last stand in Sirte: Extraordinary pictures show Libyan city shelled to smithereens
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049108/Libya-wars-stand-Sirte-Pictures-city-shelled-smithereens.html?ito=feeds-newsxml




Deserted: The denuded buildings of Sirte will have to be demolished after they were pounded with heavy artillery for weeks
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RandiFan1290 Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Looks like there is no one left
To hold up a "We need a no fly zone" poster...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 11:52 AM
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
13.  inna
inna

This is what a sivil war looks like.. Most of this ruins I guess are from the chellings from ground forces (and I doubt NATO have ground forces in Libya) and is posible from the new army who is fighting the renemates of the old regime...

Many places like this, in the new Libya.. Hopefully, the ruins wil be rebuild, th old one teard down and repleased by new buildings. And the wounds from this sivil war, wil heal, slowly, but it wil heal.. (I hope, even tho I doubt it wil be for many years to come... )

Diclotican
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is so completely wrong...that pic sickens me.
Who is doing the massacring now?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 12:50 PM
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. How humane
:puke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:27 PM
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court jester Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. R&
:kick:

"All Libyans are equal, but some Libyans are more equal than others."

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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. THAT'S what democracy looks like? fuck. :(
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:17 AM
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
62. You don't need modern missiles to do that damage.
All it takes is artillery and mortars. Kabul, Afghanistan was leveled in the late 80s to early 90s with nothing else but factional infighting using artillery.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:55 PM
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. It called war.
Edited on Tue Oct-18-11 08:02 PM by NutmegYankee
And snipers often require the shelling of buildings. If the Gaddafi loyalists were using snipers, the damage is deserved. No army is going to lose men trying to stop snipers with the chests and heads of friends and colleagues when artillery can do it. You are out of your mind if you think otherwise.

As for damage, there is always a choice for the city at the beginning of a siege to surrender and be spared the fighting. The French surrendered Paris to spare the city and the Americans surrendered Manilla (Philippines) to the Japanese to spare the city. The men controlling Sirte decided to fight it out till the end.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #72
108. No, it wasn't called 'war'. War on Libya and these people was never declared.
This destruction of lives and infrastructure is called a(nother) 'humanitarian intervention'.
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Ahem.
war
1   
noun

1. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2. a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3. a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.
4. active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.
5. aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.

Good grief.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Wow, did you ever miss the point.
It was never 'labelled' war, 'war' was never mentioned in regard to attacking Libya. It's humanitarian intervention, protecting civilians, freedom bombs ...

“We are not at war with Libya, we are protecting the civilian population,” said Fillon and added, “Our objectives are very specific... to protect the civilian population, excluding explicitly any occupation forces.”

http://www.france24.com/en/20110322-france-not-war-libya-fillon-prime-minister-gaddafi-military-intervention-un-resolution

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/21/opinion/la-oe-schell-war-powers-20110621

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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. I was referring to the classical definition of war.
Then you came along and posted what has to be quite frankly one of the goofiest replies in DU history. Talk about arguing the semantics. NATO may claim to not be at war, but the Rebels and Loyalists were engaged in a Civil War, which is part of the classic definition of WAR
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. The subject has had good coverage on UK tv news
Both BBC and SKY. All building have been either destroyed or badly damaged. The city is regarded as being unoccupyable for at least years to come.

The loyalists / anti NLC Libyans holding out in Sirte has now been likened to the British holding Rorke's Drift and the allied forces holding out on bridges during WW2. Generally speaking they are no longer referred to as pro Gadaffi forces.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:31 AM
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. A similar thought had crossed my own mind
When they do finally have elections I hope they have a completely independent force of observers there if such a thing exists.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
63. Yep. Democracy is far more effective if you first kill everyone who would vote against you.
And when that democracy is backed up by NATO bombs, you know who's interests that democracy will be supporting.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. Funny how not a single mass grave has been found that has been attributed to the rebels...
...the majority of Sirte's population fled or tried to flee to escape the retreating Qaddafi thugs and mercenaries...many were executed for refusing to take up arms. The Gaddafi forces are fighting with no hope of escape and no hope of victory. They are destroying Sirte in order to save it. The destruction and blood is on the hands of the Gaddafi's - Mutassim Gaddafi was reported to have led the resistance in Sirte and has now probably escaped. The day the Gaddafi's are brought to justice will be a great day for democracy and the right of political self-determination around the world. They are the murderers, rapists, and pillagers of Libya.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:51 AM
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. NATO gave ample warning...
...via radio, television, and leaflets to abandon their weapons of war. Many are fighting against their will - there have been dozens of reports of mercenaries being used to execute soldiers who refused to fight. Much of the Libyan army defected in the east at the outset of war. Many have surrendered. Is NATO just supposed to let them destroy Libyan cities and massacre civilians and rebels alike?

Gaddafi intended to commit genocide and attempted to carry it out; the international community has acted well within the confines of international law - http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

The rats of Libya salute the germs of Syria. ;-)
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. There is no evidence that Gaddafy intended to commit genocide.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. There's a mountain of evidence!
http://amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/icc-issues-arrest-warrant-al-gaddafi-2011-06-27

What'd you think he would have done to the Amazaigh? He even prohibited them from speaking their own language in school for 40 years.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:25 AM
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. In the great word of General McAullife at Bastogne in 1944: Nuts. n/t
Edited on Tue Oct-18-11 07:35 AM by ellisonz
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:39 AM
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
52. Well the Iinternational Criminal Court seems to have found plenty of evidence...


Today, 27 June 2011, Pre-Trial Chamber I of the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued three warrants of arrest respectively for Muammar Mohammed Abu Minyar Gaddafi, Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi and Abdullah Al-Senussi for crimes against humanity (murder and persecution) allegedly committed across Libya from 15 February 2011 until at least 28 February 2011, through the State apparatus and Security Forces.

The Chamber, composed of Judges Sanji Mmasenono Monageng (Presiding), Sylvia Steiner and Cuno Tarfusser, considered that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the three suspects committed the alleged crimes and that their arrests appear necessary in order to ensure their appearances before the Court; to ensure that they do not continue to obstruct and endanger the Court’s investigations; and to prevent them from using their powers to continue the commission of crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court.

The situation in Libya was referred to the ICC Prosecutor by the United Nations Security Council, through the unanimous adoption of Resolution 1970 on 26 February 2011. The Security Council decided, under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, that “the Libyan authorities shall cooperate fully with and provide any necessary assistance to the Court and the Prosecutor pursuant to this resolution” and, while recognizing that States not party to the Rome Statute have no obligations under the Statute, the Security Council urged all States and concerned regional and other international organisations to cooperate fully with the Court and the Prosecutor.

On 3 March 2011, the ICC Prosecutor decided to open an investigation and requested, on 16 May 2011, the issuance of the arrest warrants.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/icc0111/press%20releases/pre_trial%20chamber%20i%20issues%20three%20warrants%20of%20arrest%20for%20muammar%20gaddafi_%20saif%20al-islam%20gaddafi%20and%20a

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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
64. He'd already started
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-09-25/libya-mass-grave/50544676/1

Some of the stuff that gets posted here is nothing short of embarrassing. People are actually attempting to portray Gadhafi as a benign leader in an effort to portray the US government as the sole perpetrator of all evil in this world. Just when I think people cannot sink any lower here, they damn sure find a way to do so.

I also think it's interesting that many of these folks also criticized the Obama administration's response to the Haiti earthquake saying he "did nothing" or not enough. But when he does something in Libya and Uganda, even though other countries and human rights groups hail these actions, these same folks scream that he's after those country's oil or insert other idiocy here. And they wonder why no one takes them even the slightest bit seriously.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #64
81. Hypocrisy at it's finest. Thank you.
:evilfrown:
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Bosonic Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. And the wholesale looting being reported?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5028512

That hardly seems likely to inspire feelings of 'liberation' from any returning/surviving civilian population.

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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. You'd be pissed too...
...if your country was systematically looted, exploited, tortured, and victimized. I don't think you've got much evidence that their looting beyond those who benefited from Gaddafi. It's a civil war. Look at what happened in Misrata...they're mad. But they're not abusing the commoners and the innocent.

Isolated instances have happened, but at every turn the revolutionary leadership has exhorted their soldiers to not commit abuses...

From your own link:

Commanders tried to rein in looting by ordering fighters to refrain from entering private homes and to detain anybody not authorized to be in the area. Benghazi fighters arrested three men for looting on Saturday.

Revolutionary forces also distributed fliers at checkpoints leading into the city that read, "Dear Muslims, avoid God's wrath. Do not steal from people's homes, their cars, or take their personal possessions."

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Bosonic Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. So, in short it's an excusable, nay understandable happening
Gotcha.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Damn right.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Don't blame Western propaganda, blame critical analysis.
Well that and international convention, democracy, and the willingness to die for freedom ;-)

What are you going to do when they pull that rat bastard out of a shitty tent and he's put on trial...defend Assad?
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
120. Rumsfeld on looting in Iraq: 'Stuff happens' nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. That's all you've got?
:tinfoilhat:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
75. Still waiting...
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. There will be,
...but AFTER "The Rebels" finish their Ethnic Cleansing.




"From the start of the Libyan rebellion black people in Libya have been attacked and lynched by rebel mobs. This has been known by human rights groups and the United Nations as well as by the intelligence agencies, military forces, media and political leaders in the NATO countries – but they have generally kept a lid on it because it does not suit the narrative.

It does not suit the narrative of an oppressed people standing up against tyranny and for human rights to find rebel lynch mobs targetting black people, lynching them and ethnically cleansing them. Human Rights Investigations has documented that these lynchings even happened at rebel HQ in Benghazi."

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/08/31/amnesty-racist-rebel-atrocities-libya/




If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!




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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. HRW disagrees.
Human Rights Watch has not found evidence of killings of Africans in Tripoli or systematic abuse of detainees, but the widespread arbitrary arrests and frequent abuse have created a grave sense of fear among the city’s African population, Human Rights Watch said.

The local authorities making these arrests say they will investigate the detainees’ claims and release them if officials determine they committed no crimes. Human Rights Watch called on the NTC to release immediately all those who were detained without evidence of unlawful activity. Human Rights Watch urged the NTC to ensure that those detained because of concrete evidence indicating they committed crimes receive as prompt a judicial review as possible.

In Tripoli Human Rights Watch has found evidence that the Gaddafi government recruited and used African mercenaries from Chad, Sudan, and other countries. Human Rights Watch researchers located a large base used by hundreds of mercenaries from other African countries since February 2011, who were recruited and commanded by the 32nd Brigade of Khamis Gaddafi.

“The NTC has legitimate concerns about unlawful mercenaries and violent activity, but it can’t simply arrest dark-skinned men just in case they think they might be mercenaries,” said Whitson. “African migrants have worked in Libya for many years, often carrying out the most unpleasant jobs, and this is no way to treat those who stayed put during the uprising.”

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/04/libya-stop-arbitrary-arrests-black-africans


Gaddafi forced many of the one's he did not want as mercenaries onto rickety boats to sail to Lampedusa; they died by the hundreds.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
114. Deleted message
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
20. recommended
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walerosco Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
29. K & R
American should get out of Africa now. We have enough wars and suffering as it is.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 09:32 AM
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
105. Look at botton left of last photo.
A beautiful Bird of Paradise plant. Paving stones. I wonder if the vantage point is from what remains of somebody's home, driveway or patio.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
34. THAT was One Hell of a No Fly Zone!
” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html


The plan for Libya is the same plan the one for Iraq.
Libya will be turned into a NeoLiberal Unregulated Free Market HELL
with the Global Banks, The Global Resource Extraction Corporations, and the IMF OWNING Every-Fucking-Thing.

"They" didn't even bother to change the Marketing.
"They" just scratched out "Saddam", and penciled in "Gaddafi."
He is an evil dictator who kills his own people!!!
If you're not FOR this New WAR,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!


The ONLY surprise is that so many (even on DU) Bought this New WAR so soon after Iraq.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their Hype.

Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 09:57 AM
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Crusading & Looting once again in the Middle East.
...And NOW,
Uganda, with its newly discovered HUGE Oil Fields.
For 40 years, the West has ignored the plight of the people in Uganda,
but NOW... They get Western-Boots-On-The-Ground.


The Beat(down) Goes On!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Deleted message
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
76. Global Banking Cartel
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
35. Recommend. n/t.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
37. Lots of ProGaddfy folks in the thread.
Incredible.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Were you "pro-Saddam" in 2003? How about "pro Viet Cong" in the '70s?
:puke:
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Like many of us were pro Hussein.
"Hussein lover"

"You just want to have Saddam's baby" (- how f*d up is that? We all know Hussein dumped babies out of incubators .... presumably he'd have done the same to mine.)

"Terrorist supporter"

"You hate America"

those are just a few that I can remember.

Personally, I support the people of any nation deciding their own future without backroom conniving and scheming by 'humanitarian interventionists' who have had their eyes on the prize for years.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. The incubator thing turned out to be bullshit.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Yes, I knew that way back when. Sorry I forgot the sarcasm smilie. n/t,
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Bosonic Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Don't be a dingbat
If a policeman turns up at a call of (male) domestic abuse and proceeds to trash the house and shoot dead the husband, to be opposed to the policeman's actions does not equate to being a supporter of the husband and/or abuse in general.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. Deleted message
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
74. Many a dictator comes to power cleanly, but goes out with mayhem.
That doesn't justify the dictators rule.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Only in the Binary World of Middle Childhood.

If you're not FOR New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. Lots of anti- wars for profit folks in this thread.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. How about anti-imperialists?

Because imperialism is exactly what's going on here. Events in Libya have no relationship to those in Tunisia or Egypt.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Not supporting the NLC
doesn't convey support for Gaddafi
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
61. Yes there are.
The damage looks no different than Richmond, VA in 1865, Warsaw, Poland in 1944, and Berlin, Germany in 1945. Sometimes the bad guys go down hard with street to street fighting or they destroy the city to ruin the prize.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. Deleted message
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. What you just said didn't refute my point.
Some situations are different. In this case, the loyalists fought hard and had to be beaten street by street like the German's in Berlin. If the destruction is all you are concerned about, then cry about WWII.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
84. Or Misrata 2011.
Actually, it's not as bad as Misrata by a long shot. Rebels are not using cluster munitions.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #61
92. No, Sirte is not bombing itself. That's wrong.
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #92
111. Huh?
Berlin didn't bomb itself. Warsaw didn't bomb itself. What the hell are you saying?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
66. Deleted message
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
83. Usual suspects.
About a half dozen on a good day, dozen on a great day. Small minority but quite loud. You can predict who is posting before clicking the thread. Never fails.

:rofl:
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #83
97. This post is absolutely hilarious; talk about classic, *classic* projection!...
:rofl: indeed! Too damn funny!...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. What are you talking about? It is *fact.*
I could make a list for you if you want, but this thread provides one all on its own. Remember the names. Wait for another thread like this to be made. Predict. It's simple. You could make a similar factual observation about the Libyan Revolution threads, mind you.

Only in that case you'd find that the narrative is "we support the Libyan Revolution" whereas these threads decidedly do not.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. What Josh opines about is *fact*, in his utterly subjective perception, lol!


And please do keep the ludicrous, Orwellian slogans to yourself - or to those they might work on; most people I know find those extremely distasteful (speaking for myself only). Thanks.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #83
107. How many "usual suspects" contribute to your weekly thread...
...promoting the US Involvement in the Civil War in Libya that immediately gets unrecced to Less than Zero?

four?

on a good day maybe five?

:rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
50. Democracy Now! 's reporting on this has been deplorable.
Edited on Tue Oct-18-11 02:16 PM by EFerrari
Are Democracy Now!'s Libyan Correspondents Feeding Us the State Department and Pentagon Line on Libya?

By BAR managing editor Bruce A. Dixon
Wed, 10/05/2011 - 09:43

Is the independent media movement's flagship radio-TV show Democracy Now! pushing the State Department and Pentagon line on Libya instead of “going where the silence is” and telling the truth without fear or favor? Are its Libyan correspondents embedded with the US-backed Libyan rebels to such an extent that they have minimized and failed to follow up persistent reports of ethnic cleansing in Libya or investigate whether alleged “mercenaries” ever existed or Khadaffi's “massacres” ever took place?

Are Democracy Now!'s Libyan Correspondents Feeding Us the State Department and Pentagon Line?

By BAR managing editor Bruce A. Dixon

Have Democracy Now's correspondents in Libya, Anjali Kamat and Sharif Abdel-Kodous minimized or avoided reporting upon the persecution of black Libyans and sub-Saharan African migrants in by US-backed Libyan rebels? Have they reported massacres that may not have happened, and mercenaries who might not have existed? Have they ignored or minimized the impact of US and NATO bombing and the presence of Saudi, Qatari and other foreign forces on the ground in Libya, also in support of the US-backed Libyan rebels? Have they simply embedded themselves with US-backed forces in Libya to pass the views of the Pentagon and State Department to us as “independent, unembedded news”?

It's hard to know all of this for certain. We're over here, they're over there, and Libya is very much a war zone.

I'm not in Libya and never have been, but people who have say the country is anywhere from a quarter to half what we would call “black” in the US. It's hard not to notice that Anjali Kamat can't find any black Libyans to talk to, and that none are visible among the US-backed Libyan rebels.

http://blackagendareport.com/content/are-democracy-nows-libyan-correspondents-feeding-us-state-department-and-pentagon-line-libya

There was yet another one of these reports today. I think I'm one of DN's biggest fans at DU and it was all I could do not to switch it off. :(
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Deleted message
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. How confusing was it - the usual suspects said they were going in
to save people from a monster. That's what they always say.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Deleted message
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
82. ... I had somewhat of an epiphany recently when I (re?)-read "What Uncle Sam Really Wants"...
Edited on Tue Oct-18-11 11:26 PM by inna
It should be a required reading, seriously!... Just about answers any questions and doubts one might ever have about what exactly is going the f*ck on and the interests/motivations behind it.

LOL, I know it's a little off topic, but... I'm just compelled to share, because I was sort of BLOWN AWAY when I (re?)-discovered that book (completely by accident, just by randomly picking it at a neighborhood used book store... for the entire $4!)

And I thought I knew Chomsky, almost by heart! :) Anyway, just an amazing book experience that I wanted to share - and strongly encourage everyone (I care about) to (re?)-read! It will clarify things at this particular point in time/context, I almost can promise you that; and might even be a life-changing experience for some...

---------------

Edited to clarify: LOL, Sorry, EFerrari - this post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it was just triggered for some reason by a couple of things you (and others) brought up in this thread... I just felt compelled to share this amazing and eye-opening book experience, that's all! :)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. Hey, thanks, I'm always up for solid book recommendations.
:)
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
59. Sickening!
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
65. Sirte was destroyed by the evil rat, Gaddafi. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Deleted message
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Link. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Deleted message
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #67
87. Yep. If Reuters hadn't been there, we might still know little
even after weeks of this.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. War Is Peace!
:nuke: :patriot:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
77. Unrec for wsws...
:puke:

Sid
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Deleted message
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. I'll be glad when Qaddafi finally bites the dust.
Once your idol is gone, you will be, too.

Glad to see the socialists supporting a dictator...and they wonder why people think they're fools.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. Objectn to atrocities is not supportin Gaddafi
as anyone with two pulsing glia can figure out.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. There's not one post where you objected to the atrocities Gaddafi was committing in Misrata.
Edited on Wed Oct-19-11 01:34 AM by joshcryer
Not one. So spare us the dishonest portrayal of "caring."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. Deleted message
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #77
88. Terrified Bangladeshi families flee Sirte's hell
Desperate to escape rocket and machinegun fire in war-wracked Sirte, two terrified Bangladeshi families managed to emerge from front lines, but their relief was short lived.

Their pick-up truck broke down under sniper fire.

"Allahu Akhbar (God is Greatest), Allahu Akhbar," shouted the passengers as they held hands before they fled through the pot holed streets of the city, bullets hissed over their heads.

"Too much fighting, no water, no food, no sleep," sputtered Mohammad Nur, his mouth dry, as he crouched near a pile of blankets and bags.

http://news.yahoo.com/terrified-bangladeshi-families-flee-sirtes-hell-161324161.html

There's all kinds of reporting for people who give a damn about this atrocity.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Deleted message
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. They don't. Hillary was there at a college doing a photo op in Tripoli
Edited on Wed Oct-19-11 12:55 AM by EFerrari
today. Gross, when you consider whole communities have no power, no food and no water.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #91
118. She has another new hairdo....and she was charming and gracious wherever she went...
:puke:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. NTC "fighters came to our rescue. They screamed Allahu Akhbar, so we knew it was them and we came...
NTC fighters came to our rescue.

There's all kinds of reporting, most certainly. The reporting in this thread is mostly underhanded untruths. That's WSWS for you.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. Deleted message
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. I merely posted an excerpt from EFerrari's link. It's not my fault attempts at disinformation...
...are common and that people tend to leave out facts that are inconvenient to their toxic narrative.

Feel free to provide other sources that support the narrative that is intended by the WSWS (a website which did not once condemn Gaddafi's regime for the purge of Zawiya, the siege of Misrata and Ajdabiya, and the incursion into the western mountains).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. Deleted message
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. The link wasn't my choice. I merely had issue with the dishonest presentation.
The link was intended to provide a narrative that Sirte families were fleeing NTC, when in fact the NTC was helping them flee the NTC-Gaddafi loyalist fighting.

Gaddafi loyalists who would not let them leave.

When there is a conflict between two sides and one side does not let civilians escape, that side is decidedly worse, no doubt.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. Deleted message
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
104. D.U. is chock full of pro-war hawks now.
If this destruction were being perpetrated under a republican president the opinions might be different. Being a pacifist on the the D.U. of 2002 through 2008 was OK. And this thread would have had recs.

But look now. I look at the photographs and think of Picasso's Guernica. I look at the photos and imagine what I would be feeling if Sirte were my hometown. What if i had to leave my home because foreign nations didn't like my nation's government?

There are people on D.U. who might praise John lennon's imagine. They might give lip service to the ideals of peace but this board has become full of hawks. Interestingly, I don't think we have as many posts and participating members as we had 4 years ago.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Yes, it's depressing to see the number of people glorifying war, lies
and death.

Even more-so than it was for Iraq. For the obvious reasons.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. Deleted message
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #104
115. "under a republican president the opinions might be different"
They might be, but the conviction no less shallow.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #104
117. It's hard to understand how many there are. I don't know where they all came from
...but I do know that many were here, but singing a different tune when Chimpy was in for 8 years. Sudden turn about. Interesting that...hard to know what to make of it.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. Authoritarianism is not bound by party ID. nt
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
116. K&R...It seems many here love to see destruction who do the Unrec...
which is pretty sad.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. Deleted message
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