So Qadhaffi was executed, it seems

[Nuclear Unicorn]

GRAPHIC CONTENT WARNING

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051361/Gaddafi-dead-Dictator-begged-life-summarily-executed.html

Bullet hole to the side of his head is pretty obvious as are the preceding pictures that show him in custody and very much alive without a bullet hole to his head.




Does this invalidate the rebellion?

Should those who executed him be tried as criminals?

Are Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy complicitous?

Brush it away as the (mis)fortunes of war?

Did Qadhaffi's own criminal acts (firing on unarmed civilians, etc) invalidate his protections as a prisoner?

Would it be too politically messy for the infant NTC to put him on trial?



I have more questions than I have answers. A little help please.

[gratuitous]

1. Please to trim your ideals to fit this year's fashion

As long as everyone's agreed, either before or after the fact, that the person killed was very, very bad, whatever happened to him is not only perfectly acceptable but is to be celebrated. If you have any niggling concerns about things like due process, presentment of evidence, the right to face one's accusers, please be advised that those are reserved only for good people like you and me. Well, me at least. Probably just me.

Besides, a court proceeding will probably just turn into a circus, and it might detract from the holy purity of the today's execution by raising a bunch of inconvenient side issues that we'd just rather not have to delve into. He was a very, very bad person!

Just shut up. You're only making it worse, and you're ruining everyone's good time.

[malaise]

3. I'm loivng your posts on this subject today

:fistbump:

[Cali_Democrat]

6. Good post. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

8. Summed up perfectly, sadly...

:banghead:

[Tatiana]

16. +10000. Clever way of presenting the sad conclusion we are to draw from recent events. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

50. !

:fistbump:

[coalition_unwilling]

51. I've been making the modest proposal ever since an unarmed

Osama bin Laden was executed extra-judicially that we should dispense entirely with trials for capital crimes as an unnecessary expense and inefficiency in seeing that the will of the chief executive is carried out. From this point forward, let the mere accusation suffice so that we can carry out the sentence with dispatch.

:sarcasm:

[mwrguy]

52. This

Thanks.

[Bonobo]

76. Great post. nt

[itsrobert]

2. Get over it

he's dead. That's good enough. If you have this much time to waste on this, you should considering picking up a hobby.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. If there is no point in justice after someone has been killed

Why were we in Libya in the first place?

Presumably we were motivated by the fact that people had (past tense) been killed. Should we have just said, "They're dead. Get over it. If you're this worried get a hobby."

I suppose some might answer, "Yes, but he would have killed more."

Well, that's hypothetical, isn't it? For all we know NATOs participation prolonged and aggravated the killing. But even then we must ask -- if our intent was about stopping as yet uncommitted murder was the fact that Qadhaffi was executed after being captured cause for concern the next time we find ourselves in a situation when we support a movement that is likely to execute its prisoners?

[entropic]

23. we were in Libya to prevent this chump from wiping out a city

mission fucking accomplished.

[sad sally]

31. Just heard Libya's oil is some of the purest around - almost doesn't need to be refined.

I'm sure our reason for being there will be revealed in due time. In the meantime, chaos and destruction can be defused or stirred up, whichever is needed wherever, with a few well-placed predator drone strikes - here, there and everywhere they're needed.

[pinboy3niner]

61. Hypothetical?

Some claim that Gaddafi was only after "armed insurgents," that unarmed dissidents had nothing to fear. But besides his history of arresting, 'disappearing,' torturing and executing dissidents (including holding public, televised hangings that reportedly even interrupted children's programming on TV), there is other evidence that his intentions were not merely hypothetical.

Before the French warplanes arrived on-scene to strike Gaddafi's armor forces, they had already reached Benghazi and the tanks began firing indiscriminately on the city. At one point, his tanks and technicals penetrated the perimeter and entered the city, firing indiscriminately. IIRC, the foreign press on the scene reported nearly 100 killed in those attacks. I know that Al Jazeera's James Bays and CNN's Arwa Damon both were there, doing live reports from Benghazi.

There's also this, from Amnesty International's latest report issued a few days ago:

LIBYA

...


Security forces greeted the peaceful protests in the eastern cities with excessive and at times lethal force, leading to the deaths of scores of protesters and bystanders. When some protesters responded with violence, security officials and soldiers flown in from other parts of the country failed to take any measures to minimize the harm they caused, including to bystanders. They fired live ammunition
into crowds without warning, contravening not only international standards on the use of force and firearms, but also Libya’s own legislation on the policing of public gatherings.

...


In the unrest and armed conflict, al-Gaddafi forces committed serious violations of IHL, including war crimes, and gross human rights violations, which point to the commission of crimes against humanity. They deliberately killed and injured scores of unarmed protesters; subjected perceived opponents and critics to enforced disappearance, torture and other illtreatment, and arbitrarily detained scores of civilians. They killed and injured civilians not involved in the fighting. They extrajudicially executed people who had been captured and restrained and were posing no threat.


The al-Gaddafi forces concealed tanks and heavy military equipment in civilian residential buildings, in a deliberate attempt to shield them from possible air strikes by the NATO forces. Al-Gaddafi forces also launched indiscriminate attacks and attacks targeting civilians in their efforts to regain control of Misratah and territory in the east. They launched artillery, mortar and rocket attacks against civilian residential areas. They used inherently indiscriminate weapons such as anti-personnel mines and cluster bombs, including in residential areas.132 The use of both of these weapons are prohibited under the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions or the 1997 Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on Their Destruction; however, Libya is not party to either of these conventions.

...


ARMS TRANSFERS TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA: LESSONS FOR AN EFFECTIVE
ARMS TRADE TREATY (100 pages, pdf):

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/uploads/documents/doc_21995.pdf

[Nuclear Unicorn]

62. And we were told another dictator had pulled babies from their incubators

Yet, after an entire war with hundreds of thousands of dead, a 12-year long cold war, a second war and subsequent bloody occupation with more hundreds of thousands dead we learn that such things were exaggerated by those who would assume power.

That's not to discount Amnesty but the purpose of a trial is to openly discuss the veracity of those statements. Amnesty would make for a good witness but not the sole judge.

Allow these things to happen in secret, at whim, and we turn a blind to what may turn in to a whole host of evils. The reason progressives have -- supposedly -- opposed Gitmo, tribunals, drone strikes against citizens, CIA black sites, rendition, wiretaps and the rest is because people are being harmed without public oversight to see if guilty people are the only ones being hurt or if there is even a crime in the first place.

Al Qaeda has slaughtered thousand in the US and abroad and continues to try to do so. However, we do not just say, "Go forth and kill with reckless disregard all who take the mantle of al Qaeda!" because we know what bad things happen when we do. We still demand to know that the people being seized or killed in the dark of the night are actually guilty of what has been alleged.

[pinboy3niner]

65. I think we agree

My view on the execution of Gaddafi--if there was an execution--is expressed in Post #17.

In Iraq, I never bought the incubator story and I opposed that war--and demonstrated against it--from the beginning. I even wore my old VN War jungle shirt with all my shit on it to demonstrate, to help make the opposition of veterans more visible.

Libya is far more complex, and few have had the time to get into those weeds. I began following it early on, then accidentally wound up with the duty of updating the Libya Revolution threads, so I've spent the last 7 months-plus very deep in the weeds.

I'm happy to see Gaddafi gone, because the fall of Sirte and his death mean peace--at last--for Libya. An end to the suffering and bloodshed on all sides.

I don't celebrate his death, especially if it was wrongful. Death was too good for him. For him, being the prisoner of the 'rats' and facing justice for his crimes against humanity would have been a worse--and more just--fate. But then, I don't believe in capital punishment, period.

Thanks for posting your provocative OP. I think it's one of the best we've had on the Libyan Revolution. :toast:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. Thank you for your compliment and thoughtful reply

I share many of your same feelings and all the ambivalence that goes with them.

:toast: back at you

[Warpy]

4. Once the old bastard decided his pride was more important than anything

and decided to wage a mercenary war against his own people, I knew there would be no other outcome. It's one reason I hate violent revolution.

I always doubted there would ever be a trial. They have a whole country to rebuild, dead to bury, and thousands of mercenaries to repatriate.

Mubarak let go relatively gracefully. He lived. Qadaffi butchered his people until the end. He was summarily executed.

[Xithras]

5. Even Hussein and the Nazi's got trials.

We should never paint extrajudicial executions as acceptable, no matter HOW "evil" the bad guy is. The fact that so many Americans find this to be acceptable simply demonstrates how far American ideals and morality have slipped in the past 50 years.

[denverbill]

25. The Nazis surrendered. And Hussein was found hiding in a hole months after the fighting.

And this was not a foreign, well-trained army. This was a bunch of civilian rebels. Most rebellions don't end well for the dictator:
French Revolution, Russian Revolution, Mussolini, Ceauşescu.

Yes it would have been nice to capture and try him, but I don't find it particularly appalling that they chose to kill him instead.

[Amonester]

48. Big effing deal. He got the ceausescu treatment.

Remember that other creep Ceausescu much? Look in the dust bin of History.

Live by the sword... Die by the sword.

[Richardo]

7. Goodbye, Daddy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=3017045

[JI7]

18. hahha,i still remember that

[Uncle Joe]

10. It doesn't invalidate the rebellion anymore than the executions of Mussolini and his wife

invalidated the aspirations of the Italian People from wanting to be free of fascism, however it's still wrong to summarily execute a prisoner.

Qaddafi should have been tried in a court of law for his crimes, it's that simple.

For various reasons it seems we've gotten away from respecting the rule of law; but I believe for the good of humanity, we need to recapture, re-energize and reinstitutionalize that civilizing virtue before we do take the world to hell in a hand-basket.

Thanks for the thread, Nuclear Unicorn.

[msanthrope]

24. His mistress, not his wife was executed. Clara, not Rachele. nt

[Uncle Joe]

34. Thanks for the correction, misanthrope. n/t

[MrSlayer]

11. Yeah. When you do to people what he did, they tend not to like it.

Expecting the rebels to want to put him on trial is unreasonable. They gave him what they felt he deserved.

[ellisonz]

12. That's not accurate reporting. I'll wait for a thorough report.

[watercolors]

13. He got what he deserverd !! A trial would have dragged on

forever, live like a villian, die like one!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. Mussolini never got a trial. Saddam did.

Just luck?

The difference between being captured by an enraged populace vs. professional troops?

[tabatha]

14. I don't see that those pictures show that he was summarily executed.

It looks as though he was put into a van before being driven to Misrata.

Please indicate to me which frame indicates he was executed.

Read a little about Daily Mail

"A 16 October 2009 Jan Moir article on the death of Stephen Gately,<59> which many people felt was inaccurate, insensitive, and homophobic, generated over 25,000 complaints, the highest number of complaints for a newspaper article in the history of the Press Complaints Commission.<60><61> Major advertisers such as Marks and Spencer responded to the criticism by asking for their own adverts to be removed from the Mail Online webpage around Moir's article. The Daily Mail removed all display ads from the webpage with the Gately column.<62>"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. There is a picture of Q dead with a very prominent bullethole in the left side of his head

Obviously he would not have been moving about and speaking with this injury, so --

Whatever the DM's biases may be I doubt this photo was doctored and it would be unreasonable to think so.

[tabatha]

78. Yes, he was shot a bullet to the head and the stomach.

In those pictures, there is blood coming from his head.

That is, he was alive with blood coming from his head from a bullet wound.

Some people live for a short while after bullet wounds.

[Speck Tater]

15. I heard he was spotted in Argentina having lunch with Elvis. nt

[pinboy3niner]

17. IF he was executed, it's a war crime

The NTC has pledged to investigate war crimes on both sides, so this issue is squarely in their lap. A tough one for them to handle, but it's one of the challenges that come with the territory.

No criminal acts, no matter how heinous, invalidate the protections due to war prisoners or any other prisoners.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. +10000

We ain't gonna be too popular over that view!

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

36. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

I've been disparaged here as a warmonger for supporting the Libyan Revolution and the UN action/NATO intervention under R2P and working my ass off updating the Revolution threads for some 7 months. Now I get to catch more flak from my own side. :)

You've taken a lot more heat here than I have, I know you're used to it. Hell, you have a 'fan club' not only at that bat-shit cave place, you have one here, too, ROFL!!!

I may not be used to the kind of abuse you're accustomed to getting, but today--with the liberation of Libya and the pizza delivered to the number one Gaddafi propagandist here, nothing can get me down. :)

Love & Peace, Nadin,
pinboy3niner

[rhett o rick]

42. I am kinda slow, please help me out.

What does, "pizza delivered to the number one Gaddafi propagandist here" mean?

[joshcryer]

75. Tombstone is a type of pizza.

Does that help?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Yup, I am kind of an absolutist

When it comes to the conventions of war.

[joshcryer]

74. It's ironic because I completely agree with you, I never celebrated Bin Laden, I never celebrated...

...Alawki or Kahn, and yet, here we are. :)

You can look at my post history as it came down that Gaddafi was captured and I swear that I was hoping it was true, that he was alive, etc.

[pinboy3niner]

77. A lot of us agreed on that

From your posts, it was very clear where you stood.

My view, like yours, is that Gaddafi behind bars, imprisoned by the 'rats' and facing justice for his crimes against humanity, would have been a fate worse than death for him.

I'm sorry they put him out of his misery.

[Number23]

82. "pizza delivered to the number one Gaddafi propagandist here"

There are more than a few names that fit that bill unfortunately. Which one got the boot??

[geek tragedy]

83. That person is probably

observing from a distance.

[zappaman]

26. a war crime?

if he was killed by his own citizens that he has been torturing and killing for years(with no trials I might add), then how is is a war crime?
Guess what? If you rule with an iron fist, sometimes the iron fist comes back the other way.
No tears here.

[ellisonz]

27. CNN and Reuters is now reporting that he was killed...

...while being carried to an ambulance. He died minutes from the hospital.

It's really starting to look like his own men shot him to prevent his capture. I don't think that'd be shocking at all given the Sirte pockets fight to the very bitter end...

I agree though that if he was in fact executed punishment should be meted out. It would have been in direct contradiction of standing orders.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. It seems the pictures show him captured by rebels and pleading for his life

That would contradict a theory that his own men executed him.

[FarCenter]

33. Maybe he was an "unlawful combatant". Doesn't look like he was wearing a uniform.

It's legal to shoot spies out of uniform.

He had plenty of opportunity earlier to surrender and leave the country.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. I don't think heads of state are considered spies.

And refusing surrender at an earlier time does not abrogate rights. He had clearly surrendered in many of the photos at the OP's link. One might as well say resiting arrest allows the police to execute prisoners once they have surrendered.

[FarCenter]

46. OK, how about the NTC apprehend, try, convict, sentence and pardon the shooter.

Happy now.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. As long as impeachment is "off the table" I suppose we're OK

[rhett o rick]

43. It was suicide. His hands were tied after his death.

:sarcasm:

[zappaman]

19. I heard he liked kittens.

Those Libyans were sure mean to him.
He should have gotten a trial, just like the thousands he executed...oh....wait a second...

[JI7]

20. Darwin Award , if you become a brutal dictator for decades

you could end up being killed in a not so nice way.

[ellisonz]

29. +217

[SidDithers]

28. He was the "FDR of Africa"...

yes, I actually read that posted on DU today.

Sid

[pinboy3niner]

41. ROFL!

I saw that, too--major spit-take moment. I certainly don't remember FDR conducting and televising public executions of his political opponents, for one thing.

Worth a :wtf: and a :rofl: and a few other smilies I'm too tired to look up right now.

[Codeine]

63. No fuckin' way.

Jeeebus. I saw one fellow praising him for giving newlyweds vast amounts of cash or some shit, but THAT takes the cake.

[octothorpe]

69. Saw that too...

I took the sincerity of the comment with a grain of salt... Then again, who knows?

[joshcryer]

70. If it's still around I would love to see it.

That's incredible.

[pinboy3niner]

79. Sorry, I think it was in a deleted thread of our "dearly" departed

On the whole, I think it worked out okay.

And HUGH PROPS to the mods or admins or whoever was responsible for the pizza delivery. It was a VERY good pie! :toast:

[classysassy]

35. The evil that man does

will one day return as revenge.The citizens of the west laugh and praise the murderers of a head of state not realizing one day their hate and stupidity will come back as pay back for the deeds they see as justified.

[dipsydoodle]

37. Quite aside from

one in the neck and five in the back.

He was uninjured before he was pulled out of the car he'd been put in to be transferred to Miserata.

[rhett o rick]

38. Someone's dont like this thread. I rec'd and it is still zero. nm

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. This is one of those issues where I think I could argue different sides

Thanks for the rec, though.

[rhett o rick]

45. I may agree but I dont understand arguing with unrec's. nm

[Mimosa]

47. Captured alive and murdered.

My Arab speaking friend (who has looked at all the cell phone videos) says Khaddafi was begging for his life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NVIkck02qao&skipcontrinter=1

This execution was wrong. I'm sure if Khaddafi had been granted a trial many, many inconvenient facts would have emerged.

[zappaman]

49. Captured by who?

The people he oppressed, tortured, and executed without trial for decades?
Seems to me he got the "trial" he deserved.
:cry:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. Isn't the purpose of real trials to ensure the integrity of such judgments?

[ecstatic]

53. Why not post this on one of the rebel sites?

For once, the US wasn't responsible.

[War Horse]

54. My take, FWIW...

Does this invalidate the rebellion?

No, not at all.

Should those who executed him be tried as criminals?

Preferrably, yes. Don't think that will happen, though.

Are Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy complicitous?

No.

Brush it away as the (mis)fortunes of war?

Yes and no. It's understandable, but indefensible.

Did Qadhaffi's own criminal acts (firing on unarmed civilians, etc) invalidate his protections as a prisoner?

No.

Would it be too politically messy for the infant NTC to put him on trial?

Perhaps. Leaning towards no. It would most likely bring to light some inconvenient facts, but nothing earth shattering.

[pinboy3niner]

55. Mostly agree, with 2 exceptions

IF Gaddafi was executed while in captivity:

Brush it away as the (mis)fortunes of war?

Yes and no. It's understandable, but indefensible.

--AGREE, It's understandable, but indefensible. Still, war crimes cannot (or at least, should not EVER) be brushed away.


Would it be too politically messy for the infant NTC to put him on trial?

Perhaps. Leaning towards no. It would most likely bring to light some inconvenient facts, but nothing earth shattering.

--It would be EXTREMELY politically messy in Libya for any political figure supporting investigation and prosecution. Likely political suicide for anyone aspiring to participate in any way in the governance of Libya. But messy or not, it's the right thing to do.

[lynne]

56. Seems that way but "Live by the sword, die by the sword." -

- It was his choice. He made his own bed years ago.

[Diclotican]

57. Nuclear Unicorn

Nuclear Unicorn

Wel, he was not a gentle man who ruled Libya with peace, he lived by the sword, he died by the same sword.

But on the other hand, it could have been interesting to know in a trial many things tha happened in the 42 year old reign of Libyas Dictator, in a trial where all the facts wil be forthcoming Im pretty sure many big players, both In Libya, and outside (in Europa and in US/Russia and so one) would have coming into more trouble than they like... I belive that many politicans, are queitly happy that the truth about how they was playing and gaming with mr Gadaffi wil never be known...

Diclotican

[TNLib]

58. It looks like his own people shot him

It was a rebellion.

But I do feel that what the masses do to their political leaders tends to be justified if they can not remove them from power via democrat means, they have a right to remove them, by any means necessary.

[Codeine]

64. Being a dictator for life occasionally ends badly.

You'd think these fellows would figure it out and head for greener pastures when the writing is on the wall, but they can't seem to make that leap.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. "Executed" usually indicates a trial. Assassinated or lynched would be more apropos.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." Friedrich Nietzche

[ncteechur]

67. shit happens...even to Gaddhafi

[joshcryer]

71. Doesn't invalidate the rebellion (if anything, it underscores it).

They should be tried for disobeying a direct order from their new government and possibly war crimes (not sure how that works, because I believe I read somewhere you can kill POWs under certain circumstances).

Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy are complicit but not in the death of Gaddafi, the fall of his regime sure, but the have no control over what a rabble rousing mostly untrained mass of men with weapons will do when they capture the guy they've been after.

It should not be brushed away, but it likely will be, hopefully the NTC makes sure that those responsible are held accountable, I think even those who did it could bring themselves forward (what better way to be immortalized than to admit you did it?). I am not sure they deserve a life sentence or a very harsh sentence for their crime, however.

Lawfully Gaddafi's actions don't invalidate his protections as a prisoner particularly if he gave himself up. Realistically I never expected him to be taken alive, the NTC control over the forces has been spurious at best.

The NTC could've put him on trial with less issues for itself than the US abroad. As Fisk said, that basically the US / west benefits from Gaddafi not being put on trial more than anyone else. The NTC is made up of mostly clean Libyan's who don't have blood on their hands.

[Puregonzo1188]

72. It's the latest trend it seems.

[Bonobo]

73. Have we always sounded this much like the other side?

The number of replies that sound like they come from Youtube comments is truly disturbing.

[agentS]

80. He wasn't executed, says Libyan PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/10/20/libya-gadhafi-capture.html?cmp=rss

According to the article, he was hit by rebel and supporter crossfire while being transported.

Moammar Gadhafi was killed when he was shot in the head during crossfire between rebel fighters and the ousted Libyan leader's forces, the prime minister of the Libyan transitional government said Thursday.

According to Reuters, Mahmoud Jibril told a news conference that Gadhafi was taken out of a sewage pipe in his hometown of Sirte as it fell to revolutionary fighters

He added that Gadhafi didn't show any resistance.

"When we started moving him, he was hit by a bullet in his right arm and when they put him in a truck, he did not have any other injuries," Jibril told a news conference, according to Reuters."When the car was moving it was caught in crossfire between the revolutionaries and Gadhafi forces in which he was hit by a bullet in the head," Jibril said reading from a forensic report.

Jibril said the forensic doctor could not tell if the bullet came from Gadhafi's forces or the rebels. The prime minister said Gadhafi died before reaching hospital.

Abdel-Jalil Abdel-Aziz, a doctor who was part of the medical team that accompanied the body in the ambulance and examined it, had earlier said Gadhafi died from two bullet wounds, to the head and chest.
Jibril said the official liberation of Libya could be declared Thursday, or Friday at the latest, by transitional government chairman Mustafa Abdel Jalil.

Combat is chaotic at times; and the capture efforts only partially succeeded. So at least they "tried" to bring him in...

I heard they have one of his sons alive and in custody- maybe they can bring him to trial.

[Fool Count]

81. Yeah, sure, what's one more on top of the pile of lies.

It's not like anyone is going to take anything they say seriously anyway.

[Modern_Matthew]

84. I don't give a damn that the man is dead...

I just wish we had nothing to do with it.