So....who's next?

[hyphenate]

Kim Jong Il? Hugo Chavez? Some other dictator at large?

I thought we got rid of the neo-cons when Dickhead left office. Is the US ever going to back off from a fight? Isn't there a time and a place for everything? Right now, we should be concentrating on internal issues. Having a good worldly view is one thing, and having good relations with other countries is part of who we are. But we shouldn't be cleaning up every other country and spending untold amounts of money to do so.

Yes, I'm merely repeating something we already knew, but the Khaddafi killing just makes things more aggravating. We need to stop acting like we're the world's police force. And the police aren't always right.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Did U.S. forces kill Khaddafi?

I must have missed that part.

[PurityOfEssence]

27. We shall see, but it sounds like a US drone was a key element.

What will rise to an acceptable level for you?

The smoke is still clearing, but we seem to have more than just an oblique part in the affair.

Would there have been a UN resolution if we hadn't pushed? Are we TOTALLY innocent in this?

It's still developing, but we have definitely been instrumental in overthrowing his government, and the killing fits quite well in the pattern of exterminating those who could cause trouble should their stories come to light.

[Ohio Joe]

2. We did not kill Khaddafi

We helped with a no-fly zone when asked by the people of Libya.

[sabrina 1]

8. The people of Libya fought NATO and will most likely continue

to do so, for years. Who are these 'people of Libya' you speak of? Are they ones Human Rights organizations accuse of raping and killing Black Africans, of murdering POWS, of killing innocent civilians, trapped in cities they are attacking?

Where did these 'people of Libya' get all those arms, tanks, missiles etc. they have. They are better armed than the average military in most countries. Are peaceful people usually armed to the teeth like that?

The propaganda machine here is so powerful. AFRICOM, the raping of African Nations is under way. Somalia, Libya, now Uganda. Read about it. We are moving on from the South America, to the ME, now to Africa. It's hard being an Empire. Not everyone buys the rhetoric and lies.

[Ohio Joe]

11. And not everyone buys the CT non-sense - nt

[sabrina 1]

15. I hope not. We've seen enough of the theory

that the Libyan People are responsible for what is going on in Libya. But I'm happy to say that a vast majority of people around the Globe, are not buying the latest war lies. Only here, the usual 'my government right or wrong' who listen to our propaganda machine, is there any significant number of people who actually believe this rethread of the Iraq War Lies.

[Ohio Joe]

16. WTF?

This was not something only in the American press, it was everywhere. The Libyans did indeed want him gone.

[sabrina 1]

17. That's why the fought so hard against NATO and will continue

to do so, for nearly a year. Yes, it was not only the US press, it was also NATO countries' press, although they generally have a bit more freedom so you do get some facts from their excellent journalists, such as John Pilger eg, about Libya and elsewhere, which is not permitted in the US.

You have bought the narrative, just as the right bought the Iraq narrative, I'm not interested in changing your mind. But I will, as I did then, continue to contradict the lies and propaganda that has led us now into seven wars with more to come.

[geek tragedy]

33. I bet you loved Pol Pot. nt

[sabrina 1]

41. Oh NO! That rightwing talking point is becoming very popular on the 'left today!!

And we were just talking about how the far right Bush supporters used to accuse anyone who opposed the Iraq War of 'being a Saddam Lover'! You'll have to try something else, like maybe a real defense of this if there is one. I am immune to that old talking point, due to eight years of the far right using it when they could not defend their hero's illegal wars and the lies he told to get them started.

As I said earlier, I would expect that the Left could do better in their newfound love of PNAC/Neocon wars and come up with some original talking points to attack people who will not support Imperial wars just because the letter of the party has changed? Surely we on the left are smart enough not to have use the lame, and failed insults of the Right?

For a minute I thought you were doing a kind of parody of the right. Not much has changed at all, just the switching of two letters and the flip flopping of the teams. Amazing to see. Ralph Nader was right after all. And to think I used to be angry with him for pointing out what I could not see, until now.

[eridani]

50. No, that would have been the US government, allying itself with China and

--Pol Pot against the Vietnamese.

[geek tragedy]

36. She read it in Pravda, or whatever the USSR's diehard

supporters read these days.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PurityOfEssence]

28. Either shocking naivete or willful deception

This was not just a "no fly zone"; we and our allies actively attacked Loyalist forces and did all taht was possible to overthrow the regime. The arms embargo was laughingly violated to an incredible degree.

"The people of Libya" to whom you refer were the rebels, largely the Islamists pissed off that Qaddafi had crushed their push for a theocracy in the mid-nineties.

If he had no popular support, why are people still fighting for him? I guess they're not now, but up to the last few days they sure as hell were.

[geek tragedy]

38. My condolences that your hero got what he

deserved.

Oh, and that your side lost the Cold War.

[PurityOfEssence]

40. Binary simplicity at its primitive best

If you've read pretty much any of my many posts on this illegal war, you will know that I view Qaddafi as a tyrant, but one who also greatly bettered the lot of his people. I'm not a fan. I'm just not a lock-step automaton for our country's corporatist imperialism.

It's all very tidy to flatly dismiss dissenters as in league with the devil and against everything good and pure, but life is not that clear and clean.

Never has this man been my hero. Tarring me with that slur is either the product of a simplistic mind or the anti-social attempt to hound a dissenting voice from the public forum with deliberate deception.

Life is mostly grey areas, despite the soul-aching need of people to demand to shriek and shout down those who say so. It must be nice to live in a pristine world of clear definitions of good and evil, but that doesn't give one the right to expect everyone else to sustain one in harassing those who see otherwise.

The interventionists are now responsible for everything that happens in that country. Any excuses that this or that couldn't have been expected should be thrown back in their faces. The corporatists and their goody two-shoes allies are responsible for every death, all displacements of people, all subjugations and the rest of it. This is far from over.

I don't have all the answers. That's part of why I thought intervention was a stupid, arrogant and reckless idea. The interventionists seem to think they have it all figured out. There's also this quaint concept of national sovereignty. Oh well, that's pretty much swept aside now. There's also this concept of getting Congress' authorization for war. Pshaw. Such constitutional quibblings are arcane at best.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

46. gotta love the absolutely ludicrous (and vile to boot) red-baiting

some classic, classic shit there

:puke:

[eridani]

49. And then changed it into a DO FLY zone for terrorising civilians--

--so that the rebel forces could advance.

[PETRUS]

3. I get your point, even if others don't. nt

[truedelphi]

4. Sad the day when you realize that the only thing this nation's

government is good at is killing people.

Boy are we great. We got Khadaffi, we got bin Laden (or so we are told,) and it's all proof of the great American way.

If only we were a good deal better at creating jobs with decent pay, or helping people like those who faced the brunt of Katrina's aftermath.

And putting the banking firms in order, so they don't keep screwing the 99%.

[sabrina 1]

5. Anyone who has something we want and refuses to hand over

their country's resources to Western Powers, who everyone knows, have had the right to just take them for centuries now.

Our friendly dictators, like Karamov and the Saudis eg, have nothing to worry about though. So far, they give us what we need and want.

[polly7]

6. And Uzbekistan - they're pretty safe, I think.

Boiling people in oil is perfectly acceptable if you're a rendition ally.

[PurityOfEssence]

31. So true

It's outrageous how people hold up the overtures of '03 as PROOF that Qaddafi was a compliant and servile provider of resources. The threats to the French of nationalization in '09 and the flight of American companies during that time clearly demonstrate how uncontrollable Qaddafi was.

What a deeply ugly episode. What a shameful display. In addition to that, what a volatile powder keg this all is.

Shame on the virtue narcissists; this was and is theft pure and simple.

[Poll_Blind]

37. One of these days our hand and China's hand are going to land on the same cookie and neither of us..

...are going to want to let go. And then we put away Hungry Hungry Hippo and bring out the RISK.

PB

[sabrina 1]

44. I think that's already begun to happen. Libya eg, and Iraq.

China has been busy making friends in Africa, building roads, helping poorer countries, those with resources, financially, in return for business contracts. Same thing in South America. While the US has been attacking and invading countries to get what IT wants. And when Gadaffi threatened to give more contracts to China after getting impatient with the West over a demand he had made not happening fast enough, he probably sealed his fate.

I read today in a foreign economic news article, that the 'War' with China has already started. And last week for the first time, China exercised its Veto Power at the UN against the US, something I don't think it has done before, even if it refrained from giving support to the US.

People used to say during the Bush years that he would cause WW111. Some people are now saying we are already in that War. If we could only have done what China was quietly doing, bought what we wanted and needed instead of pushing everyone else out of the way and taking it, this would be a better world. But it's too late now and I believe losing China their contracts in Iraq and now in Libya, is bound to not make the Chinese happy.

[Poll_Blind]

45. I believe you're probably right. I hear the Chinese come into Africa and can pay cash to...

...buy or build. I'm talking big corporate interests, not individuals. The last week or two I've been constantly reminded of the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eovei355l4o">brief ending scene of "Three Days of the Condor". You don't need a lead-in...just watch it if you have ~4 minutes.

If you do get a chance to watch that video be sure to click the General forum and look at whatever topics happen to be at the top. Browse briefly over a selection of them. Then think- who's right in that ending scene...as painful as it may be.

Will they want to be asked? Or will they just want someone to take it for 'em?

PB

[bbinacan]

7. Yes, in that order. n/t

[saras]

9. How about those Scandanavians that keep making us look bad?

Especially if they keep on working on global warming and all.

I haven't seen a president yet who abandons a weapon of war already used by previous presidents.

[kestrel91316]

10. We had nothing to do with Gaddafi's killing. His OWN PEOPLE did it on their own.

And I say more power to them.

[HipChick]

12. Sure they did...

[EFerrari]

26. Sure, with a little help from months of NATO bombing runs, NATO weapons,

training and logistical support but otherwise, COMPLETELY on their own.

[PurityOfEssence]

34. Yes, you're totally absolved.

We've reached new heights of sanctimonious deniability. Huzzah!

[AngkorWot]

13. With a little luck, Kony.

I know I'm looking forward to it.

[gratuitous]

14. Oh, see, it doesn't work that way

It's all in retrospective, see. Less than 5% of the folks here could have told you who Anwar al-Awlaki was (for example), but once we murdered him, it was all right and too bad for the other people we killed in that attack (collateral damage is the euphemism we prefer to murder). So you'll just have to wait until the next murder happens, and then the justification will be proffered. But if you did it prospectively, that would give away the game, and it's so much more comforting to pretend that we're not acting in the same bloodthirsty manner we condemn in others.

Does that clear it up?

[sad sally]

30. Our untransparent government...

This is all part and parcel of the Obama administration’s extreme — at times unprecedented — fixation on secrecy. Even with Senators in the President’s own party warning that the administration’s secret interpretation of its domestic surveillance powers under the Patriot Act is so warped and radical that it would shock the public if they knew, Obama officials simply refuse even to release its legal memos setting forth how it is interpreting those powers. As EFF’s Trevor Timm told The Daily Beast today: “The government classified a staggering 77 million documents last year, a 40 percent increase on the year before.” And as I wrote about many times, the Obama administration even tried — and failed — to force The New York Times‘ James Risen to reveal his source for his story about an inept, disastrous CIA effort to infiltrate Iran’s nuclear program, but as Politico‘s Josh Gerstein reports today, the Obama DOJ is now appealing the decision in Risen’s favor. Gerstein writes:

The executive director of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, Lucy Dalglish, said the appeal was troubling for First Amendment advocates, but not unexpected.

“I’m not surprised at all,” Dalglish said “The Obama administration has made it absolutely clear they detest leakers and they are going to be very aggressive against leakers.”

Since Obama took office, his administration has initiated five prosecutions of alleged leakers under the Espionage Act — a sum roughly equal to the total number of such prosecutions in all prior administrations combined. . . .

http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/?du

[nineteen50]

18. When the only tool your country has left is military

the answer to every problem is war.

[thewiseguy]

19. AhmadiNejad I hope

[Atman]

20. "Who's Next." Tom Lehrer on iTunes.

Amazing that the song was written in the early sixties. Could have been written last week.

[PurityOfEssence]

39. "Send the Marines"

From memory, no less:

"We'll send them all we've got
John Wayne and Randolph Scott
Who can't remember all those stirring scenes?"

...

"Might makes right
until they've seen the light
they must be protected
all their rights respected
until someone we like can be elected."

We suck for this cynical escapade, and those who continue to demand kudos for moral sincerity are either suckers or those who need so much for Obama to be perfect that they'll spin any indecency with impunity. The sheer ugliness of this whole naked resource theft is astonishing.

[TBF]

21. If I were Abdelaziz Bouteflika I'd be worried -

crude oil and natural gas in his country ...

[KoKo]

22. All of them...just read around the Web what the PNAC and Think Tanks have on their "Hit List." n/t

[MisterP]

23. Gabon

there'll be the fapping that "Ondimba BURNS IN HELL TONIGHT!!!1111"
there'll be the saccharine "my thoughts are with the families of Air France 447 tonight"
there'll be the "Got bin Laden. Got Awlaki. Got Qaddafi. Got Kucinich. Got Netanyahu. Got Ondimba. Still lookin' good." propaganda pics

[Bonobo]

24. I thought it was the Repukes who were supposed to be the Tarzan bloodthirsty types.

When did the Democrats start crowing so much about THEIR ability to kill "bad people" and to mock the Republicans for not being effective at killing?

[scheming daemons]

25. How were we the "world's police force" in Libya? We didn't put a single boot on the ground.

Osama bin Laden? yes.


Khaddafi? His own people murdered him. We had no more to do with that than we had to do with Mussolini's death.

[sabrina 1]

42. His own people did not murder him.

His own people have been fighting FOR him and will probably continue to do so, against NATO who still can't defeat them.

The people who murdered him have always been enemies of his, but without the Western Imperial Powers and their WMDs, could not have done this. They couldn't do it over the past 40 years. if his people wanted him gone, he would have been in gone in three weeks, as was Mubarak and Ben Ali where the people actually did want them gone.

But now the Imperial Powers have granted his wish, they have turned him into a martyr. He said he would die fighting and he did. Against what is hated in that part of the world, because of the long, brutal, colonial history they have endured.

Hillary Clinton visited Libya this week after it was revealed that they knew where Gadaffi was and she issued the order to 'either capture or kill him'. What has happened to that woman?

The West is falling apart as they face the expected 2nd Economic Meltdown that is now imminent in Europe and eventually here if someone doesn't step in and stop these morons who callapsed the world and who are now desperately trying to protect their money from doing it again.

PNAC can check off country #3 or is it 4 on their list of 7 countries the US was to topple.

Those who killed Gadaffi have also been slaughtering innocents especially Black Africans, torturing and imprisoning them according to Human Rights Orgs who issued an appeal this past week to stop them. What was done to Gadaffi today, was a war crime. I am sure the US and NATO will condemn it as it violated the Geneva Conventions in every possible way.

Never mind, I am dreaming. They were complicit in the crime. Those are now our new brutal allies, worse than the old.

[PragmaticLiberal]

54. I'd like to know where you're getting this info from.

[MrMickeysMom]

29. The way I see it... it's a strategy for war...

Obama: "See... MY war-making is better than YOUR war-making...

Bush II: "Duurrrr"

[Andrew_Writer]

35. Free libya !

The USA didn't start the fight.

[inna]

47. What Uncle Sam Realy Wants. Two words - Read It.

[Norrin Radd]

48. Cobra Commander was recently killed in the comics.

[ZombieHorde]

51. Fingers crossed for going after the Country Music Awards. nt

[sarcasmo]

52. My pick is Kim Jong's kid.

[Trailrider1951]

53. Nope, sorry sarcasmo

No oil in N. Korea. Iran, on the other hand, ........

[sarcasmo]

55. I agree about the oil.