applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 08:56 PM
Original message |
Why empathy expanded in the last 300 years: literacy. I'm reading in |
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Edited on Thu Oct-20-11 08:57 PM by applegrove
Stephen Pinker book "The Better Angels of Our Nature" on page 175 where he cites Peter Singer's book "The Expanding Circle" that
'over the course of history, people have enlarged the range of beings whose interests they value as they value their own. An interesting question is what inflated the empathy circle. And a good candidate is the expansion of literacy.
Reading is a technology for perspective-taking. When someone else's thoughts are in your head, you are observing the world from that person's vantage point.'
This explains why some on the right want to rid the US of liberal arts university education. The GOP is surely trying to shrink the empathy circle of each and every American. Why they want to undo the enlightenment. Why they hate the UN.
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dkf
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Thu Oct-20-11 08:57 PM
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NYC_SKP
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Thu Oct-20-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
2. Well, to be fair, books and the press are technology. |
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But I know what you mean, communication technology in particular.
:thumbsup:
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
4. Technology will get the written word to places it was missing around the world. Hopefully |
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it will help expand empathy in those places.
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JVS
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Thu Oct-20-11 08:59 PM
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3. Is the expansion of empathy even a verifiable claim? |
applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
5. The premise is that violence has kept going down over the centuries and that it seems is verifyably |
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true. "The Better Angels of Our Nature" is a really great book. I highly reccommend it.
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JVS
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:06 PM
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6. The absence of a full scale war between industrialized countries in the late 20th century... |
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has often been attributed to a fear of nuclear annihilation. I'd be slow to call this an increase in empathy, seeing as we've demonstrated ourselves to be more than willing to bomb the shit out of countries that don't have the means to fight back.
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izquierdista
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
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Each century seems to bring better technology for war and killing. In the 20th century, more people were killed in wars than were even alive in the 10th century.
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:24 PM
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9. Compared to hunter gatherer societies or the middle ages there is much less murder. Much less war. |
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All the graphs (and there are tons of graphs in the book) show the decrease in rates.
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RaleighNCDUer
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
15. But a greater percentage of 10th centrury people were killed in war |
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than were in the 20th century - and considering the level of killing of the 20th century THAT is scary.
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
16. More actual people are dying but in much smaller % of the population. There are so many |
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more people alive in the world today than there were even 50 years ago. If you are born today you have just a tiny chance of dying a violent death. Much less than if you were born even 300 years ago.
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nadinbrzezinski
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
8. Violence at an individual level perhaps |
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But state wielded violence...aka war...I am not so sure. And today you can have a kid flying drones...that will make this even easier.
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
10. More people are likely dying violent deaths but as a percentage of the population the numbers are |
nadinbrzezinski
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
11. That is only because we saw exponential growth |
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You should include genocide and starvation...
While empathy has gone up...I reasonably expect a population collapse in my lifetime I wonder how that will be explained.
The last population collapse was over 100.000 years ago and was related to a super volcano.
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
12. They do include genocide in the numbers of violent deaths. |
nadinbrzezinski
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
13. I still say individually gone up |
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But not with total war.
We can agree to disagree and this will be tested with the population collapse.
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JVS
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
18. I'm also not sure the number of people killed violently is a measure of lack of empathy |
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We live in a world where we have the capability of feeding everyone and we don't. This seems a pretty strong indicator of not giving a shit about those people who end up not getting fed. Whether people getting killed in conflicts between groups over resources that truly were limited and did make a life or death difference to people on their side demonstrates a lack of empathy is questionable in my mind. At least those violent agents had the well being of their own people in mind, in the modern case it's just total indifference to human life.
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
20. I have not gotten to the empathy chapter in the book yet. I just got that |
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little teaser about how literacy expanded empathy, because of all the perspectives you internalize when you read, and that blew my mind. The book is about violence and violent natures being reduced.
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Odin2005
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
22. In forager societies 15% of people meet violent deaths, IIRC. |
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Th violent death rate at the height of WW2 was far lower than the rate in forager and primitive agricultural societies.
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alcibiades_mystery
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
17. I agree that the claim is somewhat dubious, but Pinker's book is full of data |
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One would at the very least have to dispute the clear data he presents on murder rates and the like. Intuitively, I suspect we're all prone to think that perhaps this increase of empathy is a historical myth, but that doesn't get us very far in the face of the data.
Seriously, check out Pinker's book. I disagree with a lot of it, but it can't be cast aside with snark. It's a serious argument.
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whatchamacallit
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Thu Oct-20-11 09:38 PM
Response to Original message |
14. Judging from stuff I've read in here today |
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Edited on Thu Oct-20-11 09:39 PM by whatchamacallit
I'd say people have become illiterate.
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Odin2005
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:27 PM
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19. I really need to get that book, thanks! |
applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
21. Yeah. After reading only a few chapters I dug around for a highlight marker. This book is a keeper. |
nadinbrzezinski
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message |
23. And wanting to be proven wrong |
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Just got the ebook. Highly skeptical but willing to eat my shoe, metaphorically speaking.
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applegrove
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:57 PM
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nadinbrzezinski
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Thu Oct-20-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
25. Well gotten a few good reads from here |
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Some I remain unconvinced. Others expand horizons.
So you never know.
:hi:
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