I'm hoping against hope that anyone decrying the manner of Qaddafi's death were against ANY U.S.

[cherokeeprogressive]

involvement in the Libyan "revolution".

I say this because anyone with a lick of sense KNEW that on the day Q was caught, he would die a horrible death, or at the very least he would die in the attempt to catch him. To expect otherwise reflects a very naive view of the Middle East.

It's folly to expect that after 40 years of dictatorial rule resulting in the death of tens if not hundreds of thousands through torture and summary execution; he'd be simply handcuffed and led before some kind of judge or magistrate to face criminal charges.

So if you supported President Obama in involving the United States in his removal from office (read dictatorship), you should have known the possible and MOST LIKELY outcome, and in reality: you have no dog in the hunt re killing him outright vs bringing him to some kind of "legal justice".

Both ways? You can't have it.

[tblue]

1. Saddam dear.

You can't have it both ways.

[leftstreet]

2. Why did the US wait 40 years? Did he lately become more dictator-y or something?

That's rhetorical of course

It's all bullshit anyway

[AngkorWot]

5. Uh... well, let's see...

There was that whole Arab Spring, thing. Where students took to the streets for non-violent protests and Gaddhafi had them gunned down.

I think it's a little funny about how the people who know fuck all about Libya like to pretend they don't.

[Modern_Matthew]

6. Just rearranging the deck. Nothing to see here. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. That's an excellent question, and wayyy above my paygrade.

If I had to answer, the US did the right thing in this instance and waited until there was enough resistance FROM WITHIN Libya before becoming involved.

[geek tragedy]

9. Someone slept through the Arab Spring. NT

[leftstreet]

13. Arab Spring...rings a bell. BRUTAL BRUTAL removal of bad leaders

[geek tragedy]

18. Too bad you weren't as outraged over the hundreds of demonstrators

Gaddafi murdered this spring as you are at his death.

I do not share your values.

[leftstreet]

21. Hundreds of people will die in the US from lack of healthcare. Should we send in drones?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. MILLIONS in this country will die of "natural causes" due to old age. Should we fund a search for

The Fountain of Youth?

Where does it end?

[DCBob]

31. timing...

and the correct occupant of the WH.

[AngkorWot]

3. "simply knew he would die a horrible death."

As much as I was hoping he'd be beaten to death by a crowd of his own people, I was worried he would escape. Maybe find refuge in some other country like Idi Amin.

Also, I don't know why you would think a trial would be such an impossibility. The captured Milosevic and gave him a trial.

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. I would add that I wholly support President Obama's decision to take an active role

in removing him from not only his dictatorship, but from the face of this planet as well.

[leftstreet]

8. Do you support the Admin taking an active role against Assad and Saleh? Iran?

Washington has demanded that Assad halt his crackdown on democracy protests in Syria and step down, and is pressing Yemen's longtime president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, to leave office in the face of political upheaval.

Obama has also condemned Iran's human rights record and is seeking further sanctions against Tehran over an alleged foiled plot to assassinate the Saudi ambassador in Washington.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/us-libya-gaddafi-whitehouse-idUSTRE79J6WJ20111020

:shrug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. Conditionally

I'm behind backing attempts to oust rulers like Assad and Saleh once protests in their countries become viable. For me it all starts within. Without the backing of the general populace, no support we can offer goes beyond imperialism.

If there is a groundswell of support, and the general populace is willing to go to the streets and put their lives on the line... I'm all for lending the support we have to offer.

[sabrina 1]

12. So you must have supported Bush's decision to take an active

role in removing Saddam Hussein not only from his dictatorship but for the face of this planet as well?

Do you support this administration's current support of all the other dictators they are supporting? How do you feel about the Obama Administration's support for the dictatorship of Bahrain, of Saudi Arabia and of Uzbekistan? Did you support the Obama administration's support for Gadaffi? How did you feel about Hillary Clinton welcoming Gadaffi's son to the State Dept? I don't recall any OPs here objecting to that support or to the photo ops granted to Gadaffi with this president (for business purposes of course) just a year or so ago. Perhaps you did speak out then, it's possible as I don't see every OP on DU.

[AngkorWot]

17. You're really desperate to come up with a good argument, aren't you?

Flailing around like that just isn't going to cut it.

Maybe you should learn something about current events in the ME before flying off at the handle. At least, if you really care about the issue. Maybe you're just more interested in causing a fuss.

[sabrina 1]

29. But you haven't answered my questions.

.

[sabrina 1]

10. I did not support it. I do not support Imperial Wars.

I did not support Bush's Imperial Wars, I do not support Obama's Imperial Wars. The brutal war crime that took place in Libya today was not a surprise to those of us who maintain that the US's foreign policy is immoral and that we thought we were going to see changes in those policies. Nothing has changed, in fact it has escalated.

What I would like to know is did those who supported what happened today, support Bush and the brutal killings that took place during that war?

[AngkorWot]

11. Nope.

In fact, the people who supported Bush tend to be all bent out of shape over Obama and Libya.

[Prometheus Bound]

20. Naw, Bush supporters, neocons, and other right-wing fucks love this shit.

[sabrina 1]

22. So it's okay if Obama does it, but you opposed it when Bush did it?

Can you explain the difference? Libya was on the PNAC also. Would you have supported Bush had he gone into Libya?

I oppose all US Imperial wars. Who are you speaking about when you say that they supported Bush but don't support Obama? I know of no DUer who supported Bush. Are you speaking about Freepers? They supported Bush, and although I have not checked, I'm sure they are not supporting this. But they are the fringe element of this country who feel it's okay if a Republican does it. It appears we have a similar phenomenon on the 'left' who feel it's okay if a Democrat does it. Can you explain what the difference is when a Democrat does what Bush did? I see no difference frankly. Just a continuation of US Immoral Foreign Policy.

[AngkorWot]

37. Bush never got Gaddhafi.

If he did everything exactly like Obama did, then sure, I would have supported it.

"I oppose all US Imperial wars"

You don't like Obama, and therefore you're against him doing this, and you're not above making up bullshit about this being an "imperial war."

[joshcryer]

16. You supported the revolutionaries before you didn't.

[sabrina 1]

34. When I discovered they were merely tools of Imperial Europe

and I had been fooled, of course I stopped supporting them. I regret falling for the lies, but that was the plan. To use the Arab Spring to piggy-back the latest Imperial PNAC war on hoping to get support they knew they would not get otherwise.

[geek tragedy]

19. Why are you more outraged over his death than the deaths of

everyone he murdered this year alone?

[sabrina 1]

24. Why are you NOT outraged over the murder and torture of

Black Africans by our new allies? Do you think the US should be supporting such deadly bigotry, arming them, recognizing them as a legitmate government?

I was outraged of over Gadaffi years ago and over the US and Britain's dealings with him. Were you outraged when Obama posed for photos with him not so long ago? I don't recall any outrage here over that. Gadaffi did not change, he was the same person when Obama shook hands with him that he always was. Why do you think this administration dealt with such a horrible person? I never shook his hand, never would have. Why are you more outraged at me, than you are at this administration for accepting him as an ally?

Why are you not outraged that our new allies in Libya are brutal, bigoted murderers as stated by Human Rights organizations from the beginning of this conflict? Why are not concerned about the Black Africans trapped in Libya and targeted on a daily basis by our new allies? Why is NATO not protecting them? What is going to happen to them? Why don't you care about these things? What DO you care about?

[geek tragedy]

26. You were praising him in another thread.

Now you've always opposed him?

[sabrina 1]

33. Link please.

Unless you call stating facts about this conflict 'praise' in which case don't bother. That kind of logic is pathetic. Are you saying that the people of Libya did not and are still not fighting NATO and the bigoted, brutal thugs who have been killing Black Africans and innocent Libyans trapped in their civil war? Because if you are, you are contracting reports from the most credible people who have observed this conflict from the beginning.

So far I have not seen a single argument from you in defense of your support for the US involvement in yet another Imperial war. Just insults. Same thing the Right used to do when they could not defend the Iraq Invasion.

[snappyturtle]

23. Add me to those who want to know! I guess I'm old and naive but I

did not understand why the U.S. went into Libya under the guise of brutal dictator, rebels need help, etc. What was the difference between Libya and Egypt? We didn't go into Egypt. I think Gadaffi's attitude toward Libyan oil access is what this battle was all about.

[geek tragedy]

28. Because Mubarak didn't launch a bloodbath like Qadaffi did.

He went fairly quietly, for a dictator.

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. Mubarek was responsible for a bloodbath that lasted generations... albeit a slow one. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. I do not support meddling in other countries, especially when all the

countries we meddle in and turn into enemies have some connection to OIL.

[Javaman]

36. +1

what I find interesting about all this is: while the news likes to report that the Libyans "killed" Gaddafi, without air support, logistics and training, the Libyan rebels would have been steam rolled by Gaddafi's forces. hell, the rebels while having artillery, didn't even know how to use them. So, the killing of Gaddafi is very much on the hands of the US and NATO. It was just done via proxy.

mafia style tactics. We dump bodies at sea, we give guns (air craft) to the saudis to bomb the protesters in bahrain and we provide protection (air support) to the Libyans.

What do we get in return? good will or just another toady under a different name to do our bidding?

wars have always been about resources and until we stop the charade that we are trying to help >name the current nation in strife< under the guise of humanitarianism then we as a nation will continue down this well paved road of fascism.

we are now in the retro era of hanging heads on pikes for the glory of the empire.

[sabrina 1]

38. I felt sick when I inadvertently saw that video on TV before I had

time to change channels. I am glad to hear today that the UN is calling for an investigation into what looks like a war crime, according to the Geneva Conventions. The cheering for the grotesque, bloody, brutal murder of a wounded POW in total violation of the Geneva Conventions, aided and abetted by NATO, was even more sickening than the video itself.

we are now in the retro era of hanging heads on pikes for the glory of the empire.

What we witnessed yesterday sadly, forces me to agree with you. Maybe we never evolved from those dark ages, the West likes to claim to be civilized, when in fact from all I've seen over the past ten years, we in the West are no different, proven yesterday beyond a doubt, than those we point fingers at. And probably never were. Such a sad day for those who still maintain their principles.

[joshcryer]

15. They were, and ardently against the Libyan revolutionaries freeing themselves.

They're consistent on that point.

But, I am for the Libyan revolutionaries and I am dismayed and disappointed that they couldn't bring Gaddafi to trial. So in a twist of irony I agree with those who never supported the Libyan revolution from the start (and those who did but turned coat when it wasn't to their liking).

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. I started this thread because for me, it's a simple matter....

Bring 'em home. Bring 'em ALL home.

My sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, and those of my friends...

BRING 'EM HOME.

Add up the cost of not only leasing the land for our bases overseas, but the supply lines that keep them supplied with Marlboro cigarettes and Budweiser and other things and you have enough money to provide EVERY American with free health care AND subsidize their housing.