Free Libya Wrapup

[joshcryer]

[joshcryer]

1. Free Libya Day 1 updates below, current time in Libya, 3:00pm Friday, October 21

Day 1.

[joshcryer]

2. Why Libya has a real shot at democracy and stability

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/opinion/coleman-libya-future-odds/">Why Libya has a real shot at democracy and stability
Libyans poured into the streets Thursday to celebrate the death of Moammar Gadhafi. After months of intense fighting, rebel fighters finally overran Gadhafi's last stronghold in his hometown of Sirte, marking the end of his 42-year rule.

Although Gadhafi's rule effectively ended two months ago when he fled Tripoli, his death provides closure and a sense of relief to many in the country who had opposed his tyrannical rule. It also greatly reduces the likelihood of a prolonged insurgency by Gadhafi loyalists and allows the transitional government to move forward with the hard work of building a new political system.

The challenges ahead are great: Since the Gadhafi regime so effectively monopolized the public sphere, Libya has no real civil society or effective political institutions.

After decades of tyranny, there is a deep distrust of government. There is also fear of revenge killings by those who suffered under Gadhafi's brutality. Tensions are already evident between Islamists and secularists, and between technocrats returning from abroad and those who stayed and opposed the regime at enormous personal expense. Well-armed militias have yet to be formally disbanded or integrated into a national army; large caches of arms, including some sophisticated missiles, are not accounted for and could end up in the hands of extremists.

[joshcryer]

3. Juan Cole: Qaddafi’s People’s Temple

http://www.juancole.com/2011/10/qaddafis-peoples-temple.html">Qaddafi’s People’s Temple
The final weeks of Muammar Qaddafi’s violent and coercive life reminded me vividly of Jim Jones and the People’s Temple Cult. It was obvious from late last August that Qaddafi had lost. The people in his own capital of Tripoli rose up against him in all but a few small neighborhoods, courageously defying his murderous elite forces.

Qaddafi had on more than one been occasion offered exile abroad, but sneaked off to his home town of Sirte to make a suicidal last stand. His glassy-eyed minions determinedly fired every last tank and artillery shell they had stockpiled right into the city that sheltered them in order to stall the advancing government troops. This monumentally stupid last stand turned Sirte into Beirut circa the 1980s, as gleaming edifices deteriorated into Swiss cheese and then ultimately blackened rubble. Qaddafi had favored Sirte with magnificent conference centers and wood-paneled conference rooms even as he starved some Eastern cities of funds, and in his death throes he took all his gifts back away from the city of his birth, making it drink the tainted Kool-Aid of his maniacal defiance of reality.

...

DU thread by n2doc: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2159111

[Odin2005]

4. Sic Semper Tyrannis.

Thus always to tyrants.

[joshcryer]

5. Gadhafi era ends: What's next for Libya?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-20/libya-faces-uncertain-future-after-gadhafi-death/50847920/1">Gadhafi era ends: What's next for Libya?
MISRATA, Libya — His 42 years of despotic rule already at an end, deposed Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi ran out of places to hide Thursday and was killed after being cornered by rebels in his hometown stronghold of Sirte.

Gadhafi's bloody finish, documented in grisly cellphone photos that swept the globe after being sent by rebels at the scene, triggered bullets of celebration and cries of "Allaha akbar!" or "God is great!" across his battered North African nation.

Yet Libya and its long-suffering tribal society, sitting atop vast oil riches, faces an uncertain future as it tries to establish a real government in place of the dead leader's personal tyranny.

The rebels who overthrew Gadhafi's government in August after catching the wave of unrest that swept across Arab nations this year were united in their hatred for the mercurial dictator.

[joshcryer]

6. Qaddafi's death proves that Obama was right

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2011/1021/Qaddafi-s-death-proves-that-Obama-was-right">Qaddafi's death proves that Obama was right
The death of Qaddafi isn't just a victory for Libya. It validates Obama's and NATO's intervention – as opposed to the bitter ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The international community must now continue to support Libya as it builds an inclusive democracy and rebuilds its economy.

The death of Muammar Qaddafi is the decisive event in the nine-month civil war in Libya. In the minds of most Libyans, the war could not end without his departure from the country or death on the battlefield.

...

His brutal, authoritarian rule extinguished all independent movements and denied the building over time of the civil society organizations that are the foundation of most countries and all democracies.

That is a critical fact in assessing the fate of the Libyan revolution going forward. While his death will likely effectively end the violent loyalist counter-revolution of the last few months, it will not quell all of those who still contest the revolution and wish to see it reversed.

[Iterate]

7. Gaddafi's death: 100 front pages

from La Repubblica
Slideshow of images:
http://static.repubblica.it/repubblica/esteri/gheddafi-le-prime-pagine/slide/index.html

[tabatha]

8. Gadhafi body stashed in shopping center freezer

New footage posted on Facebook shows the moments when Gadhafi was dragged by revolutionariy fighters up the hill to their vehicles. The young men beat the bloodied and confused-looking Gadhafi, screaming, "Moammar, you dog!"

Gadhafi gestures to the young men to be patient, and says "What's going on?" as he wipes fresh blood from his temple and glances at his palm. A young fighter later is shown carrying a boot and screaming, "This is Moammar's shoe! This is Moammar's shoe! Victory! Victory!"

Information Minister Shammam said Friday that Gadhafi had already suffered his wounds when he was pulled from the tunnel, and died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. "It seems like the bullet was a stray and it could have come from the revolutionaries or the loyalists," Shammam said, echoing an account given by Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril the night before. "The problem is everyone around the event is giving his own story."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_LIBYA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[tabatha]

9. Live2Tripoli's slideshow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/live2tripoli/show/

[tabatha]

10. Gaddafi asset hunters face legal mazes

LONDON | Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:16am EDT
(Reuters) - Libya's new leaders will have to dig deep to find billions of dollars in cash and assets that Muammar Gaddafi and his family stashed around the world, and then will face daunting legal hurdles to recover them all, experts said on Friday.
...

Recovery could ironically be aided by the fact that Gaddafi and his family regarded the Libyan state's wealth and assets as their own, said Roger Tamraz, a Dubai-based financier who has had extensive dealings with Libya.

Seeing Libyan state wealth as their own, they kept most money or assets they held overseas in sovereign entities such as the Libyan Investment Fund, which would be easier for Gaddafi's successors to recover than assets converted to personal use and then concealed, he said.

"When they were running the show, (the Gaddafis) didn't feel they had (to distinguish) between what was government (wealth) and what was private," Tamraz said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/21/us-libya-gaddafi-assets-idUSTRE79K42020111021

[tabatha]

11. Awesome clips of Benghazi celebrations

LibyanDuda Libyan Duda
Awesome clips of Benghazi celebrations of Gaddafi s death youtube.com/watch?v=ZX7AK4… via @youtube luv u Libya
10 minutes ago

http://youtu.be/ZX7AK4v4YMo

[tabatha]

12. NATO commander to recommend Libya mission end

BRUSSELS - NATO's top commander said Friday he will recommend the end of the alliance's seven-month mission in Libya.

Adm. Jim Stavridis made the announcement on his Facebook page ahead of a meeting of the North Atlantic Council, the alliance's governing body. The council, which comprises envoys from all 28 member countries, is deciding on when and how to end its bombing campaign in Libya a day after Muammar Qaddafi's death.

"As (supreme allied commander) I will be recommending the conclusion of this mission to the NAC in a few hours," Stavridis wrote. "A good day for NATO, a great day for the people of Libya."

The council's decision will depend on Stavridis' recommendation, but will also take into account the wishes of Libya's new government and of the United Nations, under whose mandate NATO carried out its operations.

Officials have said the alliance would likely continue its air patrols over Libya for a few more days, and then gradually phase them out.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-20123633/nato-commander-to-recommend-libya-mission-end/

(Sorry, anti-imperialists, that kills your theories.)

[ellisonz]

13. Conflicting reports regarding the capture of Saif al-Islam

2 hours 3 min ago - Libya

Conflicting news were reported from Libya about the fate of Gaddafi’s son, Saifal Islam al-Gaddafi, the purported heir apparent for his father, following Gaddafi’s death on Thursday.

Uncertain reports have said Saifal Islam was injured after his attempt to flee Sirte heading for Zlaitin. Meanwhile, deputy head for the NTC higher security committee in Tripoli has said Gaddafi was shot dead by gunfire on Thursday and that he would be buried in an honourable manner, as based on Islamic Sharia law.

But AJA correspondent said when asked about the presence of Saifal Islam in Zlaitin, the local authorities there have denied possessing any information about Saifal Islam, saying the reports were baseless and those who had released the rumours would questioned.

Other news reports have also said a convoy of about 10 vehicles which was tracked south of Sirte town, was believed to be carrying Saifal Islam and Sanousi, Gaddafi’s intelligence chief, while heading for Niger.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya

[anamandujano]

14. My first time in these threads

I'm not here much and so have only been seeing thread titles. I'm now seeing thread titles linking this with the Iraq fiasco.

Without knowing too much, only the beginning and the end, I see a difference in that this was started by the people, not by an oil greedy US President as Iraq was. In addition he linked it to 9/11 which even a 10 yr old could reason was a lie.

You've done an amazing amount of work, thank you.

I hope Libya can go forward and be free of dictators. I wish the same for all countries, including the USA, that is that we can all be free of the troublemakers at the top.

I hope we're not going to steal their oil.

[tabatha]

16. Then you will love this video from Tunisia.

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/sharon_lynch/~LrM6i

And since Tunisia and Libya seem to be very close, Libya will probably repeat something similar for their elections.

(Tunisia was AWESOME is helping the Libyans.)

[anamandujano]

18. Brings a lump to the throat,

thanks.

[Amonester]

15. They've got my hopes up. :-)

Rec. #5 (which I expect will be nullified in no time by the 'It's Obama's fault.' crowd). :rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

17. Gaddafi, in meat locker, still divides Libya

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:27pm GMT

• Arguments over disposal of body held in market cold store

• Reuters reporter sees body with bullet in side of head

• New leaders, Western backers hail dawn of new Libya

• Challenge now to impose order on array of armed groups


By Rania El Gamal


MISRATA, Libya, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's body lay in an old meat store on Friday as arguments over a burial, and his killing after being captured, dogged efforts by Libya's new leaders to make a formal start on a new era of democracy.

With a bullet wound visible through the familiar curly hair, the corpse seen by Reuters in Misrata bore other marks of the violent end to a violent life, still being broadcast to the world a day later on looping snatches of gory cellphone video.

The interim prime minister offered a tale of "crossfire" to explain the fallen strongman's death after he was dragged, still alive, from a storm drain in his home town of Sirte. But seeing him being beaten, while demanding legal rights, to the sound of gunfire, many assume he was simply summarily shot.

Gaddafi's wife, who found refuge in neighbouring Algeria while her husband and several sons kept their word to fight to the death, was reported to have demanded an inquiry from the United Nations. The U.N. human rights arm said one was merited.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LK68Y20111021?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

19. NTC to declare full liberation of Libya on Sunday from Benghazi

From AJE Live Blog:

Libya's National Transitional Council has said it would declare the full "liberation" of Libya on Sunday, after initially saying it would take place on Friday, then on Saturday.

"It will be on Sunday afternoon at around 14:00 GMT."

NTC information minister Mahmoud Shammam told reporters. "It will be a public announcement, I think in the main square of Benghazi by (NTC chairman) Mustafa Abdel Jalil."

The announcement is to mark what the NTC says will be the beginning of the process of building a democratic system in Libya.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-oct-21-2011-2256

[mark7sys]

20. I still have a few questions

What became of the ~ 85% of Tripoli's population that supported Gadhafi?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1747426&mesg_id=1756991

Who, moreover, is responsible for forcing Libyan masses out into mock celebrations of regime change? (Whoever they are, they appear to be much better at it than the previous thugs were.)

Is there any evidence yet of Western Powers stealing Libyan oil, gas or anything else? (Or is that supposed to come later?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1976082#1986696

Is there any evidence yet that Libya has begun the transformation into a chaotic / lawless / terrorist hub on the order of Somalia?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1776980&mesg_id=1777519

Are there “liberals” who feel that brutal, thieving dictatorships are progressive, while democracies are regressive? If so, what sort of government is it which such “liberals” advocate?

If “progressives” have no objection to Gadhafi-style thuggery / gangsterism / thievery, how can they (logically, in principle) have any objection to banking-drug-GMO-military-industrial-complex thievery?

:shrug:

[tabatha]

23. +100000

[tabatha]

195. Notice how they were never answered

by the supposed knowledgeable experts.

[mark7sys]

207. Sigh. My begging technique leaves a lot to be desired.

Just about all I've done since I got here is say,

I do not have the pleasure of understanding you: please explain. Educate me!

But I'm batting about 0 for 30. :cry:


(However, sure do appreciate the many clarifications which you have provided, tabatha!)

[blogslut]

21. You've done an amazing job, joshcryer

Thank you.

[pinboy3niner]

22. Shock image threshold falls under internet pressure

Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:37pm GMT

• Media increasingly likely to show gruesome images

• Some televisions warn viewers, newspapers differ in policies

• Decisive factor is editors' intent in publishing images


By Tom Heneghan


PARIS, Oct 21 (Reuters) - The threshold for publishing gruesome images like those of Muammar Gaddafi's death is falling as the internet and social media make many of the editorial decisions that used to be left to a small group of professional journalists.

The shaky video footage of Gaddafi's last moments was such a dramatic end to Libya's months-long struggle against its former dictator that many television stations around the world rushed to broadcast much of what they received.

Newspapers followed up on Friday morning, some splashing graphic photos of the bloodied former Libyan leader across their front pages while others opted for pictures of victorious anti-Gaddafi troops or file shots of Gaddafi in his heyday.

Showing images of a person in the throes of death used to be a newsroom taboo, but even this is now giving way under the pressure of instant internet publishing and -- thanks to camera phones -- the increasing availablility of strong news footage.

"Over the past 10 years, whatever your society's standards were, they're notching towards more gruesome images," said Kelly McBride, ethics expert at the Poynter Institute journalism training centre in St Petersburg, Florida.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LL3ZC20111021?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

24. Yemen: UN calls on Saleh to keep promise to stand down

AFP – 8 mins ago


The UN Security Council on Friday passed a resolution calling on Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh to immediately sign a deal under which he would quit.

The resolution, unanimously agreed by the 15 members, "strongly condemns" deadly government attacks on demonstrators and backs a Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) peace plan under which Saleh would end his 33 years in power.

...


Saleh has said he agrees to the plan by the six Gulf states but has refused to sign it or implement any of its provisions.

Yemeni Nobel Peace Prize winner Tawakkul Karman, who was outside the Security Council for the vote, called for greater international pressure on Saleh, saying the resolution should have been tougher.

"This is not sufficient. They have to discuss the ousting of Saleh and how he has to be handed over to the International Criminal Court," Karman said.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/un-council-calls-yemens-saleh-stand-down-194516213.html

[PurityOfEssence]

25. How can you be so sure that this "means the end of war in Libya"?

Perhaps by semantics, but do you really think there will be no unrest, jockeying for power, deaths, civil war or anything of the sort?

Perhaps so. Perhaps they can all sit down at a table somewhere and there will be no further disruption.

History doesn't really provide many examples of such things, especially when facing a power vacuum.

You've said it flatly, though, so let's revisit it as it unfolds.

[joshcryer]

51. The fact that so many cities went to the freedom fighters without a Sirte-style siege...

...proves that the fighters have had popular support from the onset. Tripoli, Misrata, Benghazi, the three largest cities in Libya, all were pro-freedom fighter. Gaddafi's support circle has been effectively obliterated. I think there will certainly be future skirmishes between various factions and it can even become bloody, but it's highly unlikely that there will be two sides internally battling and jockeying for the new Libya. If there is a war it would more likely be from the outside.

Yes, the Libyan Civil War of 2011 is over, to think otherwise shows an inherent lack of understanding of the Libyan situation and shows a discreet sort of islamaphobia triggered by slanderous information relating to the Libyan Civil War.

As Libya disarms the militias you can expect the conflict to sooth over time and any sort of skirmishes you read about from now until then will be insignificant.

[tabatha]

56. It is not a civil war - it is a revolutionary war.

[joshcryer]

68. They both apply, but I'm trying to engage PoE and he's picky about terminology.

;)

[tabatha]

72. POE is a "he"?

I thought POE was a "she".

[pinboy3niner]

26. NATO plans to end Libya mission October 31

AFP – 5 mins ago


NATO plans to end its seven-month air and sea mission in Libya on October 31 but will issue a formal decision next week after consulting the United Nations and Libya's interim authorities, NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Friday.

"We agreed that our operations are very close to completion and we have taken a preliminary decision to end Operation Unified Protector on October 31," Rasmussen said after long talks in Brussels with ambassadors of the 28-member alliance on when and how to wind up the campaign.

"In the meantime, I will consult closely with the United Nations and the National Transitional Council," the interim authority in Libya, he added.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/nato-meets-wind-down-libya-campaign-162852017.html

[Mimosa]

27. Ever notice how there are NO WOMEN in photos of crowds in the Middle East?

If Libya tips more to the Islamists -which it might if there's a pwer vcumn- things could get worse for women there.

[tabatha]

30. Ever notice that with a small sample one gets an incorrect result?

Jibril and Jalil have stated over and over again ad nasuem, that Libyans are moderate muslims.

[Matariki]

84. It looks like Segregation

Photos of all men. Photos of all women. Would society collapse if men and women are in the same public space?

[tabatha]

86. Did you watch the videos?

Please do, otherwise you will have the wrong impression.

[tabatha]

32. Videos:

http://youtu.be/HHyC4FMCEgI

http://youtu.be/mO9p1ZS2iSo

http://youtu.be/rXqbI_-D2TU

[Amonester]

38. Proven wrong again.

Could this... could that... I'm afraid of the future, so you must be too.

[ellisonz]

42. You must have missed the Women's Rally on March 9th in Benghazi:

http://framework.latimes.com/2011/03/09/libya-thousand-attend-international-womens-day-rally-in-libya/#/1

[Turborama]

78. And this thread, which was linked to in the OP...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751#594775">The Women Fighting, Organizing, Feeding And Healing Libya’s Revolution (Dial-Up Warning - Pic Heavy)

[pinboy3niner]

28. NATO: 'At the time of the strike, NATO did not know that Qadhafi was in the convoy'

NATO strike in Sirte area 20 October 2011


NAPLES – Now that NATO has had the opportunity to conduct a post strike
assessment of yesterday’s strike, we are able to provide a more comprehensive
picture of events.

At approximately 08h30 local time (GMT+2) on Thursday 20 October 2011,
NATO aircraft struck 11 armed military vehicles which were part of a larger
group of approximately 75 vehicles manoeuvring in the vicinity of Sirte. These
vehicles were leaving Sirte at high speed and were attempting to force their way
around the outskirts of the city. The vehicles had a substantial amount of
mounted weapons and ammunition, posing a significant threat to the local
civilian population.

The convoy was engaged by NATO aircraft to reduce the threat. Initially, only
one vehicle was destroyed, which disrupted the convoy and resulted in many
vehicles dispersing and changing direction.

After the disruption, a group of approximately 20 vehicles continued at great
speed to proceed in a southerly direction, due west of Sirte, and continuing to
pose a significant threat. NATO again engaged these vehicles with another air
asset. The post strike assessment revealed that approximately 10 pro-Qadhafi
vehicles were destroyed or damaged.

At the time of the strike, NATO did not know that Qadhafi was in the convoy.
NATO’s intervention was conducted solely to reduce the threat towards the
civilian population, as required to do under our UN mandate. As a matter of
policy, NATO does not target individuals.

We later learned from open sources and Allied intelligence that Qadhafi was in
the convoy and that the strike likely contributed to his capture.

NATO does not divulge specific information on national assets involved in
operations.


http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_10/20111021_111021-oup-update.pdf

[pinboy3niner]

29. Gaddafi caught like "rat" in a drain, humiliated and shot

Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:32pm GMT

• Gaddafi captured alive

• Former strongman said hiding in drainage pipe

• NTC said no order given to kill him


By Tim Gaynor and Taha Zargoun


SIRTE, Libya, Oct 21 (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi made his final dash for freedom shortly before dawn prayers. Libya's ousted leader, a few dozen loyal bodyguards and the head of his now non-existent army Abu Bakr Younis Jabr, broke out of the two-month siege of his home town Sirte and, forming a convoy of six dozen vehicles, raced through the outskirts to the west.

They did not get far.

...


Mahmoud Hamada, a fighter clearly recognisable from the films as being there at the time, said Gaddafi was already barely able to walk when he was captured.

Hamada said he and others hauled the former despot onto the front of the truck to get him through the crush of fighters to a waiting ambulance some 500 metres (yards) away.

One video shows Gaddafi being heaved off the bonnet of the truck and dragged towards a car, then pulled down by his hair. "Keep him alive, keep him alive!" someone shouts.

But another man in the crowd lets out a high-pitched hysterical scream. Gaddafi then goes out of view and gunshots ring out. Hamada said he did not see Gaddafi dragged to the ground and said the ousted leader was in a bad way, but alive when he was put into the waiting ambulance and it drove away.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LK5U20111021?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

31. FREE LIBRA WRAPUP DAY 2: CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:01 AM SATURDAY, OCTOBER 22

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, UTC +1 hour, GMT +2 hours

[tabatha]

33. Long live Libya, long live free Libya

http://youtu.be/9z5doVoWs4s

[pinboy3niner]

34. Syrian protesters gain resolve from Kadafi's demise

October 21, 2011 | 1:08 pm

Patrick J. McDonnell and Rima Marrouch, Los Angeles Times


REPORTING FROM BEIRUT -- Inspired by the demise of Libya's Moammar Kadafi, antigovernment protesters took to the streets of Syria and nearby countries on Friday to demand the ouster of President Bashar Assad.

"People of Libya, we rejoice for your happiness," read one banner held aloft by protesters in the flashpoint city of Homs.

"The news about Kadafi gave us a renewed resolve," said an activist reached by Skype in the city's embattled Bab Amro neighborhood. "It gave us a big boost of morale." The activist asked to be identified only as Shadi because of fears of reprisals.

The Syrian protesters' invoking of the Libyan experience was perhaps the most dramatic example of how the death of Kadafi has rippled across the region. Amateur video of the ousted Libyan leader's last moments, along with photos of his dead body, were aired over and over on Arabic-language television stations.

...


On Friday, Syrian security forces killed at least 24 people, including 19 in Homs, according to the Local Coordinating Committees, an anti-Assad coalition, which issued a statement extolling the Libyans' struggle.

"We, as participants in a similar battle for freedom, congratulate the Libyan people's great victory," the group said. "There is no turning back from the demands for freedom."

...


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/syria-protestors-libya-kadafi.html

[pinboy3niner]

35. U.N. calls for Gadhafi death investigation

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• Gadhafi's family calls for his body to be turned over for proper burial

• President Obama notes U.S. military role in helping Libya

• Issues raised over various and sometimes conflicting accounts of Moammar Gadhafi's death

• Late dictator's son Saif al-Islam Gadhafi remains at large

By the CNN Wire Staff
updated 5:02 PM EST, Fri October 21, 2011


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- The United Nations and two major human rights groups called Friday for an investigation into the death of Moammar Gadhafi amid questions over the final moments of the late Libyan strongman's life.

"There seem to be four or five different versions of how he died," the Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights said in a statement. "More details are needed to ascertain whether he was killed in the fighting or after his capture."

Questions also persisted about what would happen to Gadhafi's body. His family issued a statement Friday calling on the United Nations and Amnesty International to push Libya's new leadership "to hand over the bodies of the martyrs of their tribe so they can be buried according to Islamic rites," a pro-Gadhafi TV station reported.

Libya's interim government, the National Transitional Council, has said Gadhafi's burial will be delayed for a few days to allow International Criminal Court officials to check the body in Misrata if they choose to do so.

The whereabouts of Gadhafi's son Saif al-Islam was also in question Friday. The International Criminal Court wants the son for crimes against humanity. Revolutionary fighters said they were on his trail and would capture him soon.

...


http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/world/africa/libya-main/index.html?hpt=iaf_c1

[tabatha]

36. Gaddafi was shot and wounded at the last minute by one of his own men

"One of Gaddafi's men came out waving his rifle in the air and shouting surrender, but as soon as he saw my face he started shooting at me," he told Reuters.

"Then I think Gaddafi must have told them to stop. 'My master is here, my master is here', he said, 'Muammar Gaddafi is here and he is wounded'," said Bakeer.

"We went in and brought Gaddafi out. He was saying 'what's wrong? What's wrong? What's going on?'. Then we took him and put him in the car," Bakeer said.

At the time of his capture, Gaddafi was already wounded with gunshots to his leg and to his back, Bakeer said.

One of the others who said he took part in the capture of the man who ruled Libya for 42 years said Gaddafi was shot and wounded at the last minute by one of his own men.

"One of Muammar Gaddafi's guards shot him in the chest," said Omran Jouma Shawan.

Another NTC official, speaking to Reuters anonymously, gave another account of Gaddafi's violent death: "They (NTC fighters) beat him very harshly and then they killed him. This is a war."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/21/us-libya-gaddafi-finalhours-idUSTRE79K5CQ20111021

[tabatha]

39. Young Libyan fighter shot Gaddafi twice

(Another story - sounds more plausible)

October(AFP) – A young Libyan fighter claimed in a video posted on the Internet Friday that he had captured Libya’s deposed leader Muammar Gaddafi and shot him twice, fatally wounding him.

The claim, made by a youth from Benghazi identified as Sanad al-Sadek al-Ureibi, added fuel to growing speculation over how Gaddafi died on Thursday.

It also seemingly contradicted claims by Libya’s ruling National Transitional Council that Gaddafi was shot in the head when he was caught “in crossfire” between his supporters and new regime fighters soon after his capture.

On the video, Ureibi, said to have been born in 1989, is shown being interviewed by a number of unidentified men, some of them wearing military fatigues, who are congratulating him.

They showed to the camera a gold ring and a bloody jacket allegedly belonging to Gaddafi, with the ring being engraved with the name of Gaddafi’s second wife, Safia, and the September 10, 1970, date of their marriage.

“I fired two bullets at him, one hit under his armpit, the other his head. He did not die immediately. It took him half an hour,” he said.

....

He said he wanted to take Gaddafi to Benghazi, but when Misrati fighters insisted on taking the fallen leader back to their city, he decided to open fire and shot Gaddafi twice.

He said the Misrata fighters confiscated his pistol and threatened him with death if he returned to Libya’s third city.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/10/young-libyan-fighter-shot-gaddafi-twice/

[Cali_Democrat]

37. Hopefully this will be the last gasp of Western imperialism

Although, I doubt it. The justification for these resource wars is always the freeing of the people from an evil and brutal dictator. Private oil companies get to keep the crude flowing, banking the profits and leaders of western nations get to crow about removing an evil tyrant from power while they distract the people from domestic economic issues.

Sights will be set on the next country with loads of fossil fuels...just a matter of time. It's a never ending nightmare and the poor and middle class in the United States and other western countries are footing the bill for the Military Industrial Complex that profits from death and destruction on a massive scale.

That is all.

[ellisonz]

41. Gaddafi was already selling Libya's resources. Libya is an OPEC member.

The profit was going into his own pocket and to support his totalitarian regime. Now the money will go to the Libyan people. I expect Libyan oil production to remain nationalized and for the profits to be spent for the public good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Oil_Corporation

[sabrina 1]

44. The hypocrisy is alarming. This week the Obama administration

while cheering the death of a 'dictator' is entering into a new agreement with one of the world's worst dictators. Hillary is going over to seal the deal. Never mind that this guy is worse than Gadaffi ever was at his very worst.

There has been world condemnation now of the brutal killing of Gadaffi, who was it appears hit by a US drone and French bomb, was then a Wounded POW, murdered by our new best friends, which of course is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions.

Meet the new regime, as bad as or worse, than the old. Let's all cheer for the next brutal regime, until we decide they too are no longer our friends.

[tabatha]

48. The TNC wanted him alive. The Misrata brigade wanted him alive.

He was shot by a kid, a teenager from Benghazi, who should not have been fighting in the first place, and was never trained as a soldier. And I guess the brutality, far far worse, that Gaddafi meted out to thousands of Libyans does not count at all. That is hypocritical.

And who is worse than Gaddafi? Certainly Africa does not miss him.

[sabrina 1]

58. His convoy was hit by a US Drone and a French bomb.

I remember you and others assuring me and others who predicted that NATO was NOT there to protect civilians, but for Regime Change, that that was not the case. Apparently we were correct.

NATO wounded him, the mob abused a wounded POW and then, in total violation of Int. Law, murdered him. There are no excuses that it was a 15 year old or whatever. These are our new allies. As brutal as our old allies. And no, it is not just this war crime we witnessed yesterday, it is the most recent reports of the abuse of POWs, being knifed in the back eg, of Black Africans still being murdered and raped and robbed by our new allies. And of civilians suspected of being Gadaffi supporters being murdered. Human Rights Orgs have appealed to these new leaders and to NATO to protect these civilians, but to no avail apparently.

It is hypocricy to claim to support the removal of a brutal regime while making excuses for the new brutal regime. Claims were made that the Gadaffi forces were only defending themselves against an armed insurrection. Those claims were rejected by those now attempting to excuse the grotesque, medieval mob justice witnessed by the world yesterday and hopefully, now under investigation.

[joshcryer]

60. NATO did *not* wound him. Please take this dishonesty elsewhere.

I have never met someone who so chronically made stuff up in my life...

NATO stopped his convoy as it did with all convoy's that were armed to the teeth. Gaddafi ran, and hid in a drain pipe to be captured, and shot by a Libyan.

[sabrina 1]

65. I will thank you, once again, not to call me a liar.

U.S. Drone, French Jet Stopped Gadhafi Convoy

WASHINGTON - A U.S. defense official said Oct. 20 a U.S. Predator drone along with a French fighter jet had attacked a convoy of vehicles in Libya that Paris believed was carrying Moammar Gadhafi.

The U.S. defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the unmanned Predator aircraft had struck "the same convoy" but could not confirm that Gadhafi was in one of the vehicles.

Longuet told reporters in Paris that the convoy "was stopped from progressing as it sought to flee Sirte but was not destroyed by the French intervention."

Libyan fighters then intervened, destroying the vehicles, from which "they took out Colonel Kadhafi," he added.

One of many, many reports on what happened.

Argue with the Defense Dept and the French who are falling all over themselves trying to claim credit for this. Until of course it became a bit of a problem when the UN and Human Rights groups began calling it a possible war crime.

The Rightwing here, hoping to take away credit from Obama, claims it was the French. Hilarious to see all of them not sure which will benefit them the most, to claim credit, or to condemn what happened as a war crime, which it certainly looked like in that horrific video.

Do your research next time before you start calling people liars.

[joshcryer]

67. It absolutely does not say Gaddafi was "wounded" there.

Totally made up claim, and you, again, will not be able to back it up because it's made up. If you admit it was a poor wording on your behalf, I might accept that, but to claim that NATO wounded him is just false.

[sabrina 1]

69. I won't waste any more time on you. But I will say this,

he was a POW, it does not matter whether or not he was wounded, although he clearly was in the video, that killing was a war crime according to the Geneva Conventions. And your claim that the US/French did not wound him, means the mob are responsible which actually is even worse.

Take your pick, either way, a war crime was committed and it is being investigated as it should. The only problem is that NATO will pressure the investigators as this country pressured the Spanish Court. Still, things are changing in the world and these kinds of brutal crimes are part of the reason.

I could provide other reports which state he was wounded by the air strikes, but why bother? You will defend anything your precious 'rebel' thugs do, which is shameful.

No comment on the Amnesty Int. and other Human Rights orgs reports of their brutality towards other POWs and Black Africans, of the tortures, rapes and murders they are carrying out across the country, of the revenge killings?? No sympathy for those civilians at all?

Disgusting, all of it.

And btw, did you not deny the US and France were involved? I thought it was the 'Libyan people' alone who killed him. And what is this story about a drainpipe speaking of making stuff up?

I'm sure they will claim they did not wound him, unless it is politically more advantageous to claim they did, to save the reputations of their new best friends, just as brutal as their old friend, Gadaffi.

[joshcryer]

70. He was in the drain pipe for 6 hours, the blood in the video is fresh.

He was not wounded by NATO, though they did stop his convoy. Yes, a war crime was committed (as pinboy3niner himself said) and it is being investigated, but the NTC doesn't even get credit for it, and indeed, you insist that the "new regime" is "just as brutal" as the old regime. Your position is not credible and I'm glad this is over so you can actually reflect on the past year of your slanders against the Libyan people.

You cannot provide "other reports" because you are not being honest. I have begged you to post these kinds of reports but you refuse to do so. I cannot take anything you say as truthful.

I have commented numerous times on the treatment of POWs, black Africans, tortures, and rapes. On both sides. And I have sympathized with the entire Libyan population this entire time for a mess that Gaddafi created. All he had to do was step down. That's all he had to do!

Disgusting to be sure.

[tabatha]

101. Actually, it seems that he had a head injury after being dragged out of the hole.

http://twitter.com/#!/2011feb17/status/127632114790309888/photo/1

[inna]

152. omg Sabrina, you have the patience of an angel, truly

- in addition to being an amazing poster overall - and one of the few ones who even make DU worthwhile at this point.

With much respect and appreciation,

Solidarity.

[tabatha]

162. Ah, the facts-deprived, in duplicate.

[inna]

169. Huh? Excuse me?

:wtf:

[tabatha]

66. Where does one start with those "facts"?

Because you have made up your mind, and filter everything through those preconceived notions.

Let me take you back to the South African uprising, and consider what you probably would have said at that time with these bad things that happened there.

Jeez, why should anyone want to hand the government to the ANC, whose members necklace other people. Even Winnie Mandela supported that. And here are some of the things that went on during negotiations - my god just look at these people and all of the atrocities that have been carried out:

- violence added to the tension during the negotiations. This was due mostly to the intense rivalry between the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the ANC and the eruption of some traditional tribal and local rivalrys between the Zulu and Xhosa historical tribal affinities, especially in the Southern Natal provinces. Although Mandela and Buthelezi met to settle their differences, they could not stem the violence. One of the worst cases of ANC-IFP violence was the Boipatong massacre of 17 June 1992, when 200 IFP militants attacked the Gauteng township of Boipatong, killing 45.

- The Bisho massacre on 7 September 1992 brought matters to a head. The Ciskei Defence Force killed 29 people and injured 200 when they opened fire on ANC marchers demanding the reincorporation of the Ciskei homeland into South Africa. In the aftermath, Mandela and De Klerk agreed to meet to find ways to end the spiralling violence. This led to a resumption of negotiations.

- right-wing violence also added to the hostilities of this period. The assassination of Chris Hani on 10 April 1993 threatened to plunge the country into chaos. Hani, the popular general secretary of the South African Communist Party (SACP), was assassinated in 1993 in Dawn Park in Johannesburg by Janusz Waluś, an anti-communist Polish refugee who had close links to the white nationalist Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (AWB).

- In addition to the continuing "black-on-black" violence, there were a number of attacks on white civilians by the PAC's military wing, the Azanian People's Liberation Army (APLA).

- Violence persisted right up to the 1994 elections.

- Two days before the elections, a car bomb exploded in Johannesburg, killing nine.<136><137> The day before the elections, another one went off, injuring thirteen.

How the hell did South Africa ever get to be independent with all of this stuff going on?

What you are doing is broad-brushing. If certain members of society do something, then the brush goes flying all over the population. That is like saying that because there were massacres at certain schools in the US, all of the people in the US must be bad.

Just look at what you are saying. Think it through.

[sabrina 1]

138. Instead of fantasizing about me, you could have just asked me.

You completely miss why people are opposed to the Libyan war. All revolutions are bloody, even those where the revolutionaries are unarmed and non-violent. That is NOT the issue here.

But to speak for myself, which FYI,I like to do, I fully supported the South African uprising.

I support countries taking care of the their own business. It is not for me to judge how they do it. I know that after years of oppression, any revolution will have some bad side effects and people will most likely die. But that is THEIR business. If they prevail, it means it was what the majority wanted.

It's simple, if only you had asked me first before making up your own fantasy. A people's revolution to change their government is the people's right.

But when outside forces plot such a movement with a minority of the people, and when the most powerful Military Forces in the history of the world, have to spend nearly a year trying to defeat the government, and when the people fight those forces, it is by no means a 'people's movement', on the contrary, it demonstrates how much the people oppose the invasion of their country by such a powerful force.

I do not support Imperial Wars. This one will last a long time, because the majority of the people opposed it. And that is according to almost everyone familiar with the country before this horrible, brutal war we are now involved in.

Gadaffi's convoy was hit by NATO, I don't know why anyone is denying it since they are not. A US drone and French jet. They admit it. That is not a people's movement, that is a war by foreign forces.

[tabatha]

144. I have to disagree on this

"But when outside forces plot such a movement with a minority of the people, and when the most powerful Military Forces in the history of the world, have to spend nearly a year trying to defeat the government, and when the people fight those forces, it is by no means a 'people's movement', on the contrary, it demonstrates how much the people oppose the invasion of their country by such a powerful force."

The Libyans asked, begged for a no-fly zone. They offered to pay for it, and they may yet do that. Their sense of ownership of the NATO action was such that they frequently criticized NATO for not doing its job.

They own this operation, from the call of help from Mo Nabbous, the first tentative steps of arming themselves from the weapons depot in Benghazi after they took over the city; the ordinary folk, engineers, truck divers, bankers, bakers voluntarily stepping up to the plate to fight; to the raiding of the excessive arms of Gaddafi all over the country often where they shared one weapon amongst more than one fighter; to the constant and unreasonable amount of deaths; to the huge contribution made by the women in supporting them; to the easy overthrow of Tripoli by a plan that was hatched in the Nafusa Mountains; to the terrible firefight in Sirte where 100 fighters died in a day or two; to the fleeing of the citizens to huge tent cities and homes in Tunisia, etc.

1) To say that "outside forces plot such a movement" is just plain wrong, and quite frankly immoral. No people would undergo all of the hardships, the on-the-job training of fighting, and putting their lives in the hundreds on the line, for someone else. Libyans did not fight for "a plot by outside forces".

2) "the most powerful Military Forces in the history of the world" - Sorry, only 3% of NATO forces were used.

3) "have to spend nearly a year trying to defeat the government". Actually it is more like half a year, and that is quite phenomenal considering the huge amount of weaponry that had to be taken out by NATO. I hope there is a post analysis of numbers, but Gaddafi seems to have spent a huge chunk of Libya's money on weapons - enough for 10 wars. That it was taken out in 7 months is quite remarkable. If it had not been taken out, the FF would not have stood a chance.

4) "when the people fight those forces" The ONLY people who fought against the FF were Gaddafi forces. ONLY. And many of them were paid mercenaries because Libyans would not fight against other Libyans. Do you know what happened to Libyans in Gaddafi forces who did not want to fight - they were executed. Do you know what happened to citizens who supported the FFs - they were jailed and/or executed.

5) "how much the people oppose the invasion of their country by such a powerful force." See #4. To repeat. It was ONLY Gaddafi forces, and a lot of them foreign mercenaries who fought the FFs. All of the towns that the FFs "captured" were done with consultation with the elders of that town - and this negotiation was attempted with the only two towns that did not peacefully transition. Although, Bani Walid was eventually taken through negotiation. The battle in Sirte was because Gaddfi would not give up.

In conclusion, I would like to say that --- your opinion is based on falsehoods --- the Libyans did not fight and die in their thousand for a plot hatched by another country/ies --- and that is an insult to all those who fought and died and lost relatives in the war. Libyans knew this was their only chance at overthrowing Gaddafi, and they are extraordinarily grateful to NATO.

I also find it a little arrogant that only revolutions that fit one's preconceived notions of what revolutions are "acceptable", are considered valid. There would have been no need for NATO --- if the Arabs had stepped in and done what NATO did --- or better yet, Gaddafi had agreed to step down as happened in Tunisia and Egypt. Did you know that Gaddafi opposed the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia, and was going to send in 30,000 mercenaries into Tunisia to stop that revolution?

And as far as how Gaddafi died, I do not believe the Libyans care. He killed too many - as one of his aides stated, "Gaddafi got used to killing".

[sabrina 1]

151. All opinion, based on MSM mostly. Most of what you have stated

has been contradicted, and as time goes by, even more truths are being revealed.

You have claimed that the 'Libyan people' who supported NATO's invasion, were a majority. Evidence please.

Lies told by the current, unelected, US backed Jibril even yesterday about Gadaffi's death, have already been contradicted.

Gadaffi never used his airforce, as claimed by the propagandists, Nor did he kill '6,000' people, another lie that was suspicious at the time, but has now been completely debunked, with the help of the person who first told it.

Anyhow, time and investigations, will correct the lies over time. Too bad though for the poor people now under the control of the NATO backed minority who are brutalizing daily while NATO ignores calls from Human Rights Orgs to protect them. The other major lie, that they were there to protect civilians.

The UN Rappateur has called for an independent investigation to what 'appears to have been a war crime', not only in the death of Gadaffi, but also his son, and several others. He has contradicted Jibril, who has now had to retract his claim of 'crossfire' because the lie did not hold up.

I am glad to see that the adults in this world still care about International Law and condemn the kind of medieval brutality, the abuse of a body, the gloating and celebration of the murder in custody, if that is what happened of a human being in flagrant and sickening violation of International Law, thank you to the UN Rep for saying so. After watching some of the comments here from supporters of this War on a Sovereign state, I am glad to see they are so much in the minority, or I would give up hope for this world.

The behavior of the 'rebels' and their supporters, has sickened a majority of people in this world and at least that is a good thing, to know we have not all returned to the dark ages where the mob ruled and people made parties out of public murders.

[Iterate]

157. Your intransigence reminds me of arguments with a creationist or climate change denier.

There will always be another gap. There will always be a flaw in the data.

Believing that the Nato intervention was unwise is one thing, but denying that the revolution was authentic and simply human sets you off on a lonesome and frustrating path of constant contradiction.

So I have to ask, is there any piece of evidence possible that would convince you otherwise?

If the answer is "no", then as time goes on you'll be driven to more obscure conspiracy theory, more arcane and irrelevant detail, more bizarre and unsupported sources. You'll be driven to more stories with title phrase like "Untold truth...", "What they don't want you to know..." and "Secret plans...".

Mathaba headline today:
Qaddafi Not Dead
Mathaba Editorial on the "Death" of Muammar Qaddafi

I know that isn't what you believe, but it is what the truest of the true believers believe. If your answer is "no", then there lies your future.

If you answer "yes, xyz evidence would convince me" then you have a tough problem to face as well, because you're putting yourself in judgment of a people and their simple request for UN intervention. I suppose it could be added to the UN charter that protection is granted if the people requesting are sufficiently anti-imperialist, sufficiently authentic revolutionaries, sufficiently perfect in their own application of human rights.

The UN standards for R2P as they stand are simple and they were met. It authorized all member states. That should be good enough.

[sabrina 1]

171. Actually I am in the majority regarding my opinion. I did initially

support this, what I thought was, a people's revolution and was watching it very closely from the very beginning, before some of the now super cheer-leaders were even aware it was happening.

But I among so many others began to notice things that were not consistent with a people's revolution, very early on. I also don't tend to continue to support murderers and rapists once I am sure the allegations are true. At first, being a supporter, I thought it was an attempt to discredit them, but within weeks, there was no way to deny the increasing eye-witness reports of lynchings, rapes and murder of terrified Black African immigrants by the so-called rebels. Sorry, I don't support murderous bigots.

And those charges continue to be made by Human Rights orgs. But aside from that since it apparently doesn't bother those who are opposed to brutality :eyes:, I noticed the original genuine protesters were complaining that their protests were being infiltrated and taken over by people they did not know. People who were urging them to 'go fight' when they knew they would be killed. Same thing was happening on Twitter, many of us felt those urging these poor people to risk their lives, were wrong to do so, and said so. I assumed at that time they were in Libya, but then it turned out they were in Pennsylvania and other parts of the world.

We asked them why they were urging these poorly armed people to attack Tripoli, I mean it was insane. And then all of them disappeared after it was discovered they were operating from here and not as they had claimed, rebels themselves.

But that was only the beginning of what people were beginning to see. I'm not going to waste any more time on this, I am satisfied that the time I took and the work so many others put into finding out the facts about this over months, has provided enough evidence to make the decision to stop supporting it, to admit to having been fooled initially, the correct one.

I do not support Imperial Wars or murderous, bigoted thugs even if they are supposed to be on my side.

[joshcryer]

172. Are all Free Libya supporters "murderous bigoted thugs"?

[tabatha]

177. People in Pennsylvania

were urging people to go fight?

Scratching my head? Is this a different universe?

People in Pennsylvania had no effect whatsoever of what people on the ground were doing in Libya, and the rebels signed up without any coercion from anyone,and the invasion of Tripoli was all done by people who wanted to do it.

I do not support atrocities in any way shape or form.

But just because they happen, does not mean the bulk of the Libyans who are good people, should not be supported.

[sabrina 1]

178. I don't remember you there at the beginning at of this, so yes,

the so-called leaders on Twitter who were urging people to go commit suicide basically were noticed by thousands who were following the story and then they were discovered to have been posting from the safety of their computers in the US. After being discredited they all disappeared. But they were good, we fell for it for a while. Unfortunately some on the ground believed them to be legitimate also. That was the beginning of the suspicions that something was wrong about all of this.

[ellisonz]

181. I believe she is referring to the Libyan diaspora. Those Gaddafi drove out.

My guess is that the Pennsylvania reference is to this story:

Expat Pair Among Libyan Rebels Fighting For Zawiya

July 12, 2011
by Lourdes Garcia-Navarro

"It wasn't really much of a decision," says the chemical engineering student. "It's the summertime, and we saw that ... it's going to be a long war possibly, and there's still something we can do to help, we said, 'We are going to go.' "

Malik's father, Mabruk, originally hails from Zawiya. He left when he was 18, eventually settling in the United States and marrying. He became an imam and taught Islam in state penitentiaries in Pennsylvania. He got a real estate business going.

Six of the brothers he left behind, though, still lived in Zawiya. They all took part in the uprising.

About two weeks into the rebellion, Mabruk received a call from Libya with terrible news: One of his brother's sons had been killed.

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/12/137799678/american-father-son-join-libyan-rebels

They both died in August on the road to Zawiya when a mortar round struck the vehicle they were in. They died for their family.

Bizarre, isn't it? ;-)

[tabatha]

183. I remember that father and son very well.

They volunteered.

There is a lot of kookiness on the web - to discredit the effort of a whole country because of some kooks is really weird.

[Iterate]

185. I'm aware of your "evolution" on the topic

Evolution of opinion is not the issue, or at least I hope it's not.

So I have to ask again, is there any piece of evidence possible that would convince you otherwise? From your other responses, I'm guessing there isn't. As far as I'm concerned anyone who answers "no" to that question on any topic is, or has become, a conspiracy theorist, ideologue, or worse. If so, there is little point to a discussion.

I can tell you what my response would be, and that would be the announcement in the morning that 4 million adult Libyans wish to peacefully return Saif Gaddafi to power, along with a flood of tweets, video, first person journalist interviews, facebook pages, spontaneous marches, and articles in Arabic newspapers. Saif then returns to a peaceful Tripoli and the streets get swept.

Granted, that's not likely and it's 4:30am here so I'm being a bit goofy, but I think its improbability gives me confidence in my opinion. It wouldn't hurt as well if Catherine Ashton announced that she was wrong and there were not a million+ Libyan refugees (who were almost exclusively anti-Gaddafi btw), but only ten. Again, not likely.

Before I sign off though, I'll take a few minutes on some of your points.

There is no need to invoke a conspiracy or coup plot when ordinary human behavior and explanations from history, psychology, and sociology will serve better.

The twitter sources were located outside Libya simply because of security concerns and the internet shutdown, Most of the tweeters were relatives of the Libyan diaspora tweeting from contacts and relatives in Libya. Once Tripoli fell many started using their real names and being more open about their families.

Revolutions and movements, if successful, get to a point where the young and enthusiastic get pushed aside or overwhelmed by the older, more connected, and more experienced. I can't think of an exception. In Libya's case the need was urgent for well experienced people in the military, finance, international relations, communications, on and on. These were non-ideological technocrats by and large, and I don't see anything nefarious in it. Yes, many were from the diaspora. Wouldn't you return and offer your best talents?

Finally, just a thought about HR reports, a habit I have when reading one: when you start reading, start counting. The mind recoils at the horror, but when you're finished the count will give you perspective. Then think about who exactly was responsible in each case, a small mob, a soldier, or a commander. It make a difference. With every report I saw the anti-revolution "news" outlets increasingly exaggerate the scope and scale until within days they were calling all "rebels" racist murderers. Having the numbers in your head can help keep you from getting swept up in the exaggeration.

Anyway, signing out at 5:20am from GMT+2

[tabatha]

160. You are once again sadly misinformed.

You have claimed that the 'Libyan people' who supported NATO's invasion, were a majority. Evidence please.
>>It was not an invasion, it was a no-fly zone.
>>Where is your evidence that they did not.

Lies told by the current, unelected, US backed Jibril even yesterday about Gadaffi's death, have already been contradicted.
>>Jibril is stepping down tomorrow. The NTC was formed before the UN passed any resolutions about Libya.
>>How the hell could they have elected members before the war was over. Really? What a stupid adjective. Elections are to be held in 8 months.
>>Please provide evidence that Jibril is US backed.
>>Unfortunately, this world is not perfect - messages are garbled. I don't know how many versions of the Saif capture there have been. As a child I saw a diagram of about 8 people with telephones to their ears; where the first said something like an object is blue and the last person said something about sky. This is called the fog of war, and to claim that it was a premeditated lie without evidence says more about your understanding of people than anything else. Even Clinton when she heard about the death of Gaddafi did not believe it because there have been lots of rumors that turned out false before.

Gadaffi never used his airforce, as claimed by the propagandists,
>>I guess the pilots who defected to Malta were lying
>>I guess the pilot who walked 15 miles to defect from the air force is lying
>>I guess the pilots who bailed out in another country and then were returned and ?shot? was false
>>http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/01/990315/-Did-Qaddafi-Bomb-Peaceful-Protesters?via=blog_511082

Nor did he kill '6,000' people, another lie that was suspicious at the time, but has now been completely debunked, with the help of the person who first told it.
>>Link please
>>He has killed far more, probably several thousand alone in prisons and mass graves. There were 100 killed in a couple days is Sirte alone.

Anyhow, time and investigations, will correct the lies over time. Too bad though for the poor people now under the control of the NATO backed minority who are brutalizing daily while NATO ignores calls from Human Rights Orgs to protect them. The other major lie, that they were there to protect civilians.
>>Time will certainly tell.
>>NATO backed minority - what crap. Evidence please?
>>Human Rights Orgs have called on NATO? Link?

The UN Rappateur has called for an independent investigation to what 'appears to have been a war crime', not only in the death of Gadaffi, but also his son, and several others. He has contradicted Jibril, who has now had to retract his claim of 'crossfire' because the lie did not hold up.
>>Yes there were war crimes on both sides. The ICC has looked into and will look into all. I have stated so multiple times.
>>However, the stuff committed by Gaddafi dwarfs anything the FFs did.


I am glad to see that the adults in this world still care about International Law and condemn the kind of medieval brutality, the abuse of a body, the gloating and celebration of the murder in custody, if that is what happened of a human being in flagrant and sickening violation of International Law, thank you to the UN Rep for saying so. After watching some of the comments here from supporters of this War on a Sovereign state, I am glad to see they are so much in the minority, or I would give up hope for this world.
>>Gaddai's death was unfortunate. But, I think most people understand that things got out of hand by people who had seen family members, fighters, and others killed mercilessly by Gaddafi. One outfit had 22 members at the start of the war; there are 2 left.
>>Gaddafi practised 42 years of medieval brutality. Yes, the adults in the world did care about medieval brutality, that is why the UN resolutions were passed.
>>Gaddafi did not follow Geneva Conventions. Ever. It is hardly surprising that youngsters in Libya do not know the difference. If you can find a case where Gaddafi followed Geneva Conventions during 42 years in Libya, I would love to read that link.

The behavior of the 'rebels' and their supporters, has sickened a majority of people in this world and at least that is a good thing, to know we have not all returned to the dark ages where the mob ruled and people made parties out of public murders.
>>Absolutely astounding. The majority of the world is happy that Gaddafi, the worst terrorist in the world, has gone from the stage. Even Zuma has said that he is relieved that Gaddafi is no longer part of the AU. Your statements remind me of the Whites in South Africa who looked upon the brutality of the people who necklaced 400 people in South Africa as a reason why the ANC could not rule, and thus Nelson Mandela could never be president.

Yours is probably one of the worst cases of broad-brushing I have ever seen, based primarily on falsehoods and the outrage over Gaddafi's death. Where is your outrage over Gaddafi's killings which were not made in the heat of battle by fighters who probably have had little rest and good nutrition, compared to Gaddafi who was issuing his orders of death from palatial homes. I guess the fabulously furnished homes from which he issued those orders of mass killings are not medieval brutality, because he was seated on a gold-encrusted chair. Oh, the hypocrisy.

I hope Saif goes to trial so that all of the world can see what the Gaddafis did.

[joshcryer]

53. Gaddafi lost and war in Libya is at an end, with no occupying forces. Why can't you be glad?

Imperialism has very little power to effect anything in Libya beyond the typical contracts that were already going out, with contracts that Gaddafi's regime had made.

[Iterate]

63. I want to know where Americans buy anti-imperialist gasoline.

I have no use for any of it, but I might pass the word on to a few friends in the states.

You know, we never encountered many Libyans, and maybe only Mousa Ibrahim, who complained about imperialism. There were frequent mentions of fair distribution of revenues and the end of corruption, but never that. I assume it's only something that occurs to people on their drive home from shopping.

[joshcryer]

64. Imperialism is always defined by occupying forces, either armed forces or army bases. The Libyan...

...people reject both of those. It is "internationalism" at its finest. It's crazy, absolutely insane, how Libya and Angola are such dramatically comparable situations. Except Castro left occupying forces in Angola for many years.

The US assets on the ground are likely being withdrawn as we speak (except for the CIA spies that will now have a lifetime living arrangement in Libya, of course), NATO is drawing down, and there will be no non-Libyan military bases in Libya. It's the best outcome anyone could have ever imagined outside of Gaddafi stepping down immediately and the Libyan people being allowed to move on.

[Iterate]

40. Two documents from Misrata

The first is the attack order signed by Gaddafi and given to his son Khamis, titled "Plan of Attack on Misurata", which was implemented on March 6, 2011 signed by Gaddafi.

http://www.17022011libya.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1551

It's in Arabic and there are translations around, but on second thought I won't post the images because they're so large. I think they were posted in June anyway.

Note that this order was given just after Zawiya fell, and was two weeks before the Nato intervention.

Here's what the Guardian had to say about it at the time:

"The Observer was last week granted exclusive access to view some of the files – documents that even the ICC has not yet seen. A glance at the paperwork is astonishing: on the top of one file is a letter from 4 March, two weeks after Misrata rose up to defy Gaddafi, signed by the general he put in charge of the operation to quell the protest: Youssef Ahmed Basheer Abu Hajar. Addressed to the "fighting formations", which had by then cut all roads into the city, it issues a blunt instruction: "It is absolutely forbidden for supply cars, fuel and other services to enter the city of Misrata from all gates and checkpoints."
...

"We have lots of evidence that Gaddafi wanted all of Misrata gone," said Misratan war crimes investigator Khalid Alwab, 35. "We have him saying he wanted the people of Taruga and Zlitan to each take half. He says that he wanted to turn the blue sea red."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/18/gaddafi-misrata-war-crime-documents?CMP=twt_gu

And here's a second document, also from Misrata, Gaddafi's death certificate:

[ellisonz]

43. Libyan men stand in line to see the body of Muammar Gaddafi

3 hours 31 min ago - Libya

People stand in line to see the body of former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in Misrata October 21, 2011. Gaddafi's body lay in an old meat store on Friday as arguments over a burial, and his killing after being captured, dogged efforts by Libya's new leaders to make a formal start on a new era of democracy. REUTERS/Saad Shalash

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya

Video of the meat locker the tyrant Gaddafi is being kept inside of: http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/10/21/gorani-how-did-gadhafi-die.cnn

[pinboy3niner]

45. Gaddafi dead: Rebels answered mobile phone to Libya dictators daugher - who screamed "rats"

by Andrew Gregory, Daily Mirror 22/10/2011


GADDAFI’S daughter screamed “rats” at rebels who answered her dead father’s mobile, it emerged last night.

Aisha Gaddafi, 34, desperately rang her father’s number after hearing reports he had been captured.

But she was left shocked after rebels answered the dictator’s mobile phone as he lay bleeding in the hot sunshine of his home town Sirte.

TV reports in Dubai and Jordan claimed Aisha, who is in hiding in Algeria, repeatedly screamed at those on the end of the line.

...


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/10/22/gaddafi-dead-rebels-answered-mobile-phone-to-libya-dictators-daugher-who-screamed-rats-115875-23505765/

[bluestate10]

190. Aisha is a lawyer. She can come back to Libya and go to court. nt

[ellisonz]

46. Libyans gather to celebrate in front of White House

Libyans gather in front of the White House to celebrate the death of Muammar Gaddafi, in Washington October 20, 2011. REUTERS/Molly Riley

Video: http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/10/21/vonat-libyans-white-house-celebration.cnn

[occupyeverywhere]

47. You seem pretty invested in this.

[ellisonz]

50. Should Josh not be invested in learning about the world?

:P

[joshcryer]

52. You seem to be a living contridiction.

Anyone who supports Occupy should support Libyan self-determination from a tyrant.

[occupyeverywhere]

55. You really don't know anything about it

OCCUPY doesn't support anybody or anything.

[tabatha]

57. It is the same cause. Not about support.

The US is trending Gaddafi - most of the money at the top with little at the bottom.

Corruption by Gaddafi - corruption by Wall Street.

[occupyeverywhere]

59. Yes, but are you saying I should be happy a man was summarily executed

because of U.S. foreign policy?

[joshcryer]

62. No, you should be happy that the Libyan people are no longer at war.

Celebrating the death of individuals is wrong.

US foreign policy had little to do with his death, as Libya would've likely had a protracted civil war for years. There is much historical precedent for this.

[joshcryer]

61. Occupy supports the 99%.

[occupyeverywhere]

71. What does that have to do with a fabricated civil war

To topple a dictator?

[tabatha]

73. Can you provide facts that it was fabricated?

[joshcryer]

74. 99% of Libyan's are in the 99%.

[occupyeverywhere]

76. I've not heard that

You speaking for the Libyan people these days?

[joshcryer]

77. Did 99% of Libyans have large villas, expensive cars, million dollar houses in London?

No? Didn't fucking think so. Only the Gaddafi side did. Probably less than 1%.

[tabatha]

81. Bill Maher show

Thomas Friedman (yep that guy) said he was in Tahir Square during the Egyptian revolution - and said one thing that he saw that was in common with the 99ers, was they wanted justice for than anything else.

[Posteritatis]

153. You don't need to "speak for" someone to have a clue about their demographics. (nt)

[lunatica]

149. Unbelievable

What an idiotic thing to say.

[tabatha]

54. Try these as well:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/imperium/2011/08/22/three-questions-libya

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/Syria

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/Yemen

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/08/1024159/-Witnessing-Revolution-259-Arab-Spring
(Interrupted by OWS)

http://www.facebook.com/LibyanYouthMovement

[ellisonz]

49. NYT: Qaddafi Family Tree

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/23/world/africa/20110823-qaddafi-family-tree.html?ref=africa

[pinboy3niner]

75. Questions remain about Gaddafi's death (AJE video report - 3:14)

Published 21 October 2011 23:29

Speculation is rife about the precise manner of Muammar Gaddafi's death. Libyan leaders say he was killed in a crossfire after fighters found him hiding in a tunnel. But footage shows him alive after his capture, only to be pronounced dead a short time later. Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley reports from the scene of his death just outside of Sirte (3:14).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5cK1w-kJk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[ellisonz]

79. As Libya takes stock, Moammar Kadafi's hidden riches astound

As Libya takes stock, Moammar Kadafi's hidden riches astound
New estimates of the former leader's assets — more than $200 billion — are called 'staggering.' If they prove true, he would rank among the world's most rapacious leaders.

By Paul Richter, Los Angeles Times

8:53 p.m. CDT, October 21, 2011
Reporting from Washington—
Moammar Kadafi secretly salted away more than $200 billion in bank accounts, real estate and corporate investments around the world before he was killed, about $30,000 for every Libyan citizen and double the amount that Western governments previously had suspected, according to senior Libyan officials.

The new estimates of the deposed dictator's hidden cash, gold reserves and investments are "staggering," one person who has studied detailed records of the asset search said Friday. "No one truly appreciated the scope of it."

If the values prove accurate, Kadafi will go down in history as one of the most rapacious as well as one of the most bizarre world leaders, on a scale with the late Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire or the late Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines.

Kadafi's death after he was captured Thursday outside his birthplace, the coastal town of Surt, not only all but ended the armed uprising that erupted in February. Revelation of the stunning size of the portfolio may stir anger among Libya's 6.5 million people — about one-third of whom live in poverty.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-fg-kadafi-money-20111022,0,7365365.story?track=rss

[Iterate]

115. Ben Shatwan says billions stolen in Libya

Ben Shatwan says billions stolen in Libya
19/08 18:45 CET

euronews:
“How much money was embezzled? Do you have a figure?”

Ben Shatwan:
“Frankly, people talk about it, they don’t give precise figures, but looking at oil production these last few years we reckon the sum of money embezzled varies between 200 and 250 billion dollars.”

http://www.euronews.net/2011/08/19/ben-shatwan-says-billions-stolen-in-libya/

Sorry to rerun this yet again, but frankly I'm just going to have to get it out of my system. Essentially, with ballpark numbers, it's a night on the town for everyone on earth ("drinks are on me", says Gaddafi) or a year's income for the poorest 15%.

[ellisonz]

128. Keep in mind that's accountable assets...

...and probably doesn't take in to consideration what he's frivolously spent over 40 years maintaining himself and his power base.

Muammar Gaddafi - the $800 Billion Dollar Man.

[pinboy3niner]

80. U.N. envoys discuss lifting Libya no-fly-zone

Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:31am GMT

• West says Libyan authorities need to be consulted

• Envoys aim to agree on resolution by month's end


By Patrick Worsnip


UNITED NATIONS, Oct 21 (Reuters) - The U.N. Security Council opened discussions on Friday on lifting the no-fly-zone it imposed over Libya in March and envoys said they expected it would do so after consulting the new Libyan authorities.

The action at the United Nations came as NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen, speaking the day after the death of ousted Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, said the alliance planned to end its air and sea campaign in Libya at the end of October.

Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters he had circulated a draft resolution on lifting the zone at a closed-door council meeting "and I am very pleased that the council has decided to take it up."

"Crucial changes have taken place in the situation in Libya, we expect a declaration of liberation to be announced ... so, given all those circumstances, it's time to wrap it up, including the no-fly-zone," he said.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN1E79K1XY20111022?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

82. Gaddafi family demands body; NATO ends Libya war

Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:18am GMT

• Arguments over disposal of body held in market cold store

• Reuters reporter sees body with bullet in side of head

• New leaders, Western backers hail dawn of new Libya

• Challenge now to impose order on array of armed groups (Adds possible lifting of no-fly-zone)


By Rania El Gamal


MISRATA, Libya, Oct 22 (Reuters) - NATO called an end to its air war in Libya, and the clan of Muammar Gaddafi demanded a chance to bury the body that lay on display in a meat locker after a death as brutal and chaotic as his 42-year rule.

In a statement on a Syria-based pro-Gaddafi television station, the ousted dictator's family asked for the bodies of Gaddafi, his son Mo'tassim, and others who were killed on Thursday by fighters who overran his hometown Sirte.

"We call on the UN, the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and Amnesty International to force the Transitional Council to hand over the martyrs' bodies to our tribe in Sirte and to allow them to perform their burial ceremony in accordance with Islamic customs and rules," the statement said.

...


NTC officials have said Gaddafi later died of wounds in the ambulance, but the ambulance driver, Ali Jaghdoun, told Reuters that Gaddafi was already dead when he picked up the body.

"I didn't try to revive him because he was already dead," Jaghdoun said, in testimony that adds greater weight to the widespread assumption that Gaddafi was lynched.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LL4AT20111022?sp=true

[CJvR]

173. Give it to them!

All they have to do is show up in Misratha and sign for it in person... :evilgrin:

[Matariki]

83. NOT A WOMAN IN SIGHT. So maybe it's more fair to say "half of Libya is free"

just saying.

[joshcryer]

87. *sigh* This islamaphobic crap again? Say the same about Egypt, too? Look:

Libyans wave Kingdom of Libya flags in Misrata as they celebrate the fall of Muammar Gaddafi October 20, 2011.

Photo: Reuters

Yes Libya is an Arab state and women, even under Gaddafi, did not have many rights, but now they will have them, they have been pivotal in the revolution and the future is only bright for them.

[tabatha]

89. But it is segregated - the men and women are not together.

Well, here is a video of them all together now, 1, 2, 3 ..

http://youtu.be/t4AJ-BzWjrM

Actually, there should be a ton of pictures out this weekend - look for thanku4theanger, live2tripoli, and others.

I'll post them if I come across them.

[joshcryer]

95. Wonderful vid, thanks for posting it.

I still think they, being a moderate Muslim country, will not overnight shed the cultural norms of women and men protesting separately.

[ellisonz]

93. ...

:eyes:

[bhikkhu]

85. Thanks for all the work keeping us up on things

Its been a remarkable few months, and very educational getting to know the history, politics, and the people involved. Very glad that its finally, officially, over, though of course its just the beginning for the Libyans.

On this side, I'm mostly impressed that Obama made the decision to send help when the people in Behghazi asked for it; if you look back at the all the things on his plate, the guarantee of bitter divisions on it in his own party, and the great likelihood that any wrong step in the complex operation would harm his presidency - it was an act of great courage.

I'm very glad it worked out as well as it has, and I hope the Libyans make the most of their opportunity.

[joshcryer]

88. Tens of thosuands of Yemeni anti-governmnet protesters attend the Friday noon prayer in Sanaa

Yemen will be free soon, bet on it. :)

[tabatha]

90. Post mortem due today on former Libyan leader

The coroner in the Libyan city of Misrata says he expects to carry-out post mortem examinations on the bodies of Muammar Gadaffi and his son Mutassim later today.

The details of when and where they'll be buried remain unclear.

The bodies are being kept in freezers where people have been allowed to see them.

Earlier, the National Transitional Council has said it would declare Libya's total liberation tomorrow.

An NTC minister said he expected a public announcement to be made in the main square of Benghazi where the uprising against the Gadaffi regime began in February.

Meanwhile, Nato's seven-month mission in Libya is to end on October 31.

It's to issue a formal decision next week after consulting with the United Nations and Libya's interim authorities.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1022/libya.html

[tabatha]

91. Col Gaddafi spent last days of life hounded in Sirte

The Daily Telegraph found one resident who had ventured into the city to see what had happened to his house when the fighting engulfed the town.

Adnan Syed, a 50-year-old glazier originally from Syria, said his own house had been hit by a rocket and then gutted by fire in an eastern suburb.

His friend’s house was similarly destroyed.

“It’s all burned, it’s all destroyed. Nothing can be repaired.

“This shouldn’t have happened. I look at this and I think why couldn’t Gaddafi have surrendered earlier. Then we might have been spared all this.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8842033/Col-Gaddafi-spent-last-days-of-life-hounded-in-Sirte.html

[tabatha]

92. Libya's injured rebels rejoice (MEN & WOMEN TOGETHER!!)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/libya-rebels-rejoice-dictators-death

Life has not been easy for Mahmoud Mahmoud Ba'zeck since he was hit by a rocket during the siege of Misrata in June. The 23-year-old former rebel fighter has had a leg amputated, three of his fingers reduced to stumps, and a metal splint fixed on to his thigh.

But, sitting in his wheelchair in a Tunisian hotel and recalling the moment he heard that Muammar Gaddafi had finally breathed his last, Ba'zeck could not help but smile. "When I heard he had been killed, I felt all right. I felt as if I didn't have these injuries."

All around him in the lobby of El Hana International are the walking wounded from a war that has caused such carnage that casualties are spilling over the border into a neighbouring country with more hospital beds, medicines and doctors.

Around 300 Libyans – the wounded and their relatives – are staying in the Tunis hotel, the recipients of medical treatment and accommodation funded by Libya's national transitional council. In Tunis as whole there are estimated to be up to 10 times that number.

(Tunisians and Libyans are brothers and sisters)

[joshcryer]

94. Women gathered at Liberation Square to celebrate the death of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.

[ellisonz]

96. Gaddafi Death Political Cartoons

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2165302&mesg_id=2165302

[tabatha]

97. Inspired by Libya, Syrian protesters poured into the streets on Friday

Inspired by the scenes of euphoria in Libya, Syrian protesters poured into the streets on Friday and shouted that President Bashar Assad's regime will be the next to unravel now that ousted Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi is dead. (Oct. 21)

http://youtu.be/1KlSLdvuDWs

(Tunisians and Libyans are now free brothers and sisters - next up Syria)

[ellisonz]

98. Last Known Image of Mutassim Gaddafi Alive

19 hours 7 min ago - Libya

A grab from a video handed over to AFPTV by a National Transitional Council (NTC) fighter shows Mutassim Gaddafi, son of Muammar Gaddafi, drinking water and smoking a cigarette before his death in Sirte on October 20, 2011.



http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya

[ellisonz]

99. Saif al-Islam Gaddafi and Abdullah al-Sennusssi Remain Unaccounted For

Both are wanted by the ICC

Gaddafi spy chief believed to be hiding in Niger-formin

20 Oct 2011 21:04

Source: reuters // Reuters

PARIS, Oct 20 (Reuters) - Niger's foreign minister said on Thursday that he had been informed by Western countries that Muammar Gaddafi's former intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi had fled across the border into the extreme north of Niger.

Senussi is wanted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity.

The brother-in-law of the former Libyan leader, who was killed on Thursday, Senussi has been accused of ordering the murder and persecution of civilians throughout Libya during the collapse of Gaddafi's 42-year rule this year.

"It seems that he is in the extreme north of Niger. It is the Western countries which have informed us," Mohammed Bazoum told Reuters by telephone from Niger.

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/gaddafi-spy-chief-believed-to-be-hiding-in-niger-formin

[ellisonz]

100. LAT: In Libya, a spectacle greets Moammar Kadafi's corpse (Warning - Image)

In Libya, a spectacle greets Moammar Kadafi's corpse
As Libyans line up to view Kadafi's body in Misurata, they ridicule, reflect and look ahead. Meanwhile, the U.N. calls for an investigation into the former leader's mysterious death.



Libyans gather around the body of Moammar Kadafi in a storage freezer in Misurata. Boys and their fathers lined up as if going to a carnival to glimpse the man they once believed invincible. (Saad Shalash, Reuters / October 21, 2011)

By Jeffrey Fleishman, Los Angeles Times

October 22, 2011
Reporting from Misurata, Libya—
His body lay pale in the half-light of a meat locker, head tilted to one side, blood streaking his chest. Men laughed and ridiculed him as the scent of onions rose from the souk.

In life, his specter was towering, but in death Moammar Kadafi was diminutive, put on display along a row of butcher shops and vegetable stands. Boys and their fathers lined up for hundreds of yards outside the market's gates as if going to a carnival to glimpse the man they once believed invincible.

"I want him to keep the face of a tyrant in his mind," said Abdul Rahmen Swasi, pointing to his 11-year-old son, Mohammed. "We saw Kadafi talking for so many years on TV. Blah, blah, blah. But now we see him dead."

Swasi and his son inched forward, stepping over blowing trash, past men in fatigues brandishing guns. They pushed through the doorway into the room's chill, hurrying past the bullet-marked corpse and out into the air of a country much changed since Thursday, when revolutionary fighters killed the man who had ruled Libya for decades in still unexplained circumstances in his hometown, Surt.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-kadafi-body-20111022,0,4060994.story

[CJvR]

174. Perhaps...

...they should do what the Soviets did and build a mausoleum where he can be put on display, Gadaffi liked to hog the spotlight anyway so he probably wouldn't object to being the main attraction at the Tyrant's freakshow.

[ellisonz]

182. Agreed.

[tabatha]

102. Geneva Conventions in Libya

Since Gaddafi never followed Geneva Conventions and/or probably never discussed them, I am sure at least half of the population of Libya do not know of them, from either being taught or following the non-example of Gaddafi.

Post on AJE.

From the end of the Second World War to the 1990s, there was a kind of "dictator immunity", whereby murderous tyrants could ally themselves to one or other side in the Cold War and remain safe by either invoking the protection of their patron or threatening to defect to the other side.

From about 1990 to 2011 there has a been another sort of immunity in which the dictator knew (or believed|) that no matter how murderous his activities, it was fine to fight on to the end, because there was always the nice cosy option of an arranged exile or, at worst a comfortable cell at the Hague should things go wrong..

If the manner of Gaddafi's death in 2011 has a positive side it is that it demonstrates that Revolutions are messy things. You can't micro-manage the reactions of angry, partly-trained young men angry at years of oppression and months of comrades being killed in front of their eyes. In volatile situations, things just spin out of control. And that's precisely what happened at Gaddafi's death, no more, no less.

The message for Assad and Saleh in Syria and Yemen from this is: You may fight on, you may continue to murder your people, confident in the expectation of a comfortable retirement in some other dictator's guest house, but in the end whether you live or die may come down to a split second judgement by a scared, angry and confused young man.

Better by far to get out now, escape to Caracas, Harare, Niamey or Khartoum (or even to escape to the Hague). All the "rights" in the world won't matter a damn when you face a gun held by a young man whose mother your forces shot on the streets of San'a or whose sister your regime gassed to death in Halabja.

[ellisonz]

129. Historical context is always paramount.

:thumbsup:

[Bonobo]

103. "The fall of Gadaffi means the end of war in Libya!" --Are you really that naive? nt

[tabatha]

104. Are you really that cynical? Time will tell.

[al bupp]

111. Cynicism has its own rewards.

Besides there will no doubt be all manner of opportunity to conflate and exaggerate the negative aspects of events as they unfold in order to maintain a bitter and cynical view of the situation.

Switching gears a bit, with regards to the need for reconciliation, as a South African, what's your opinion on the outcome of the Truth Commission used there following the fall of Apartheid? Would you recommend a similar process for Libya?

[tabatha]

135. South Africa had far deeper divisions.

Strong racism from a section of Whites who thought the K's (in South Africa they used the K word not the N word) were just not up to the task (see notes)- initial reluctance by Buthelezi to join in the elections, and some other tribal conflicts, and some parts of the population who were very angry. And huge poverty with no money earner like Libya has in oil. A few years after 1994, a group of very right-wing Afrikaners had planned to march all of the Blacks out of the country into Zimbabwe and beyond, to reclaim SA for themselves.

I was not there at the time of the T&C, but it appears that the T&C did help. Of equal importance was having people like Mandela and Tutu whose main message was to forgive and forget. Not everyone listened, but I think the vast majority of people wanted to work for the best of the country.

I remember talking to a White Afrikaner in 1997, who was prepared to give the new government a chance and understood that there would be difficulties in the transition. (see notes)

On the other hand, I had many disagreements with my Mother about many things - she was quick to condemn and not understand, but since I was not there I could not talk from a credible point of view. My sister, whose views are more with the times, cried after SA lost in the World Cup on receiving the following which was making the rounds in emails as a ppt before it was converted to YouTube, noting how far they had come as a country.

http://youtu.be/YW4nwsqgz8I

It has a lot to do with the will of the people, and I believe that the majority of the Libyans wanted to see Gaddafi go. If Saif gets caught and goes on trial, then I think that will be a good part of the "Truth". I have heard from many sources that only about 10-15% of Libya supported Gaddafi, and only because they were pampered by him. So it all depends upon whether Libyans feel that reconciliation is necessary or not - the main person who was doing the harm was Gaddafi and a small part of the population who supported him.

I hope there is a good, honest person who can step up to lead. But, it is different in many respects. I think the Libyans have a really good shot at being successful. They have a burning desire to "own" their country - something denied them for 42 years, be well educated, and take part in the world community without being ashamed as they were before.

Notes

The dissing of the Libyans by some people on DU and a few trolls on AJE, reminds me very uncomfortably of those Whites in South Africa whose dissed the Blacks, often with the derogatory K word. It is so eerily similar, even to the point where one person posted calling the Libyans "those people". Someone else went on about how the Libyans were racist and rapers and criminals, etc, etc. with even less evidence than the charges of rape and atrocities by Gaddafi forces, and ignoring those crimes. Similarly in SA, the atrocities by the Whites were ignored with stuff like "does everything have to be blamed on Apartheid". Funny how similar it can be.

And that is my point. In every population on earth, you will find that most people just want to have a decent job and look after their families. It is only on the fringes that really bad stuff happens, but some people are quick to paint all of the population with the the actions of the few bad. This is what Republicans do on a daily basis.

There will be challenges and problems ahead for Libyans, and I expect and predict that the critics of this revolution will not be as magnanimous as that Afrikaner was, in his own country where he would have to deal with the consequences, in giving the country time for the transition. There will be posts "Oh look at this bad thing, told you so" as they happen.

[al bupp]

143. Thank you for the very thoughtful reply

I haven't nearly as much to say, but wanted to publicly acknowledge the obvious effort which went into your post. Your perspective is much appreciated. I agree that it will be helpful if someone w/ the moral authority of a Desmond Tutu could step to the fore in Libya. I always have just loved that man. I think his cherubic smile is simply infectious, and his approach always feels so down-to-Earth and sincere. He was a real angel to SA, in my opinion.

From afar, I think SA doesn't often get the credit I think it deserves for having largely avoided the blood-bath it seemed destined for in the 80s. Clearly a lot of that had to do w/ the way Mandela led the transition. In appearing to have forgiven his captors for all those years of captivity, he made himself a model the forgiveness he preached. I can easily see why the video made your sister cry.

Cheers!

[tabatha]

147. Yep, I adore that man, too.

Here is a favorite video:

http://youtu.be/dMUhmiPUT2s

The transition also had to do with Whites willing to negotiate. Some of them did so voluntarily (see Van Zyl Slabbert), other did so because sanctions were biting badly. The Rand was at 1R:1$, but by the late 1980s was very low about 1/4 of that.

But it was Mandela's skill that led to the ANC government. At first the negotiations were not about ceding power, but sharing power.

[joshcryer]

106. Are you predicting more war in Libya? If so, when it doesn't happen, will you admit being wrong?

[Bonobo]

110. Yes, I predict more war. Are you predicting a stable democracy?

The rebels show every sign of being as bad as that which precedes them.

I will admit to being wrong as soon as their first democratic and fair election is over and the blood is still not running.

Will you do the same when things go south?

[joshcryer]

112. I have maintained that from the start.

That I would admit being wrong about the Libyan Revolution if, for example, it turns into an Afghanistan/Iraq fiasco with civil war and bloodshed on a regular basis. I do expect some small skirmishes for a few weeks if a few months yet (apparently there are a few small pockets of resistance left) but the war is over.

The rebels have shown very few signs that they are "as bad as that which precedes them." In fact, they've shown remarkable coherence in light of their lack of real leadership and pure decentralized operation.

Tell ya what, you'll start seeing about the gun collecting in the next month or so (it will take about that long for things to simmer down). Libya militas will be mostly disarmed by then and you'll see a dramatic drop in deaths.

Meanwhile I have a private list of people I have asked to admit they were wrong, and I do not in fact expect them to ever do so, you've been added. Please PM me if you ever post it, I may not be around DU for the elections. :hi:

[tabatha]

105. PM likens rebuilding Libya to 'Mission Impossible'

Sat Oct 22 2011 14:46:42 GMT+0400 (Arabian Standard Time) Oman Time

Libya: Libya's interim prime minister Mahmud Jibril warned on Saturday that rebuilding his war-battered country would amount to a "Mission Impossible" task.

"Rebuilding Libya will not be an easy task. It is Mission Impossible of Tom Cruise," Jibril told a World Economic Forum meeting on the shores of the Dead Sea in Jordan, referring to the Hollywood star's movie.

"Stability and order in the country need to be restored and this requires collecting arms in the streets ... which is not an easy question.

"We also need to initiate a reconciliation process. Without these things, we cannot do anything," Jibril added.

The top official of the National Transitional Council said he was "relieved" by the death of Libya's strongman Moamer Kadhafi on Thursday. "I feel relieved and reborn again, as simple as that," he said.

Libya's new leadership is expected to formally proclaim the country's liberation on Sunday. "The first elections after the liberation of the country should be held within a period of eight months maximum," Jibril said.

http://www.timesofoman.com/innercat.asp?detail=51034&rand=

[tabatha]

107. Exclusive - Libya summons Gazprom over Gaddafi-era oil deal

Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:33pm GMT Print | Single Page <-> Text <+>
By Jessica Donati

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Libya's National Oil Corporation has summoned Russia's Gazprom to a meeting in Tripoli to discuss what the Libyans said was a breach of investment obligations -- the first sign the new leaders are prepared to renegotiate Gaddafi-era contracts.

Although Libya's claims centre around a relatively minor issue -- the failure of Gazprom to pay for student education -- the move indicates the headaches awaiting global energy companies in the aftermath of the war.

And while the National Oil Corporation (NOC) has made it clear it will be receptive to proposals for compensation, the move also underlines the readiness of Libya's new rulers to act on any perceived lapses in commitment.

"They had to meet their obligations, and we will hear why they didn't fulfil them," NOC Chairman Nouri Berouin told Reuters in an interview.

The meeting, originally scheduled for Thursday, had to be cancelled as flights into Tripoli's airport were halted on concerns about gunfire across the skies of the capital following news of former leader Muammar.

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE79K4M620111021?sp=true

[tabatha]

108. Libya: NTC fighters cleaning up Gaddafi’s loyalists

The Libyan NTC fighters have started to clean up the remnant forces of Gaddafi loyalists in Sirte.

The National Transitional Council (NTC) fighters said on Friday that there remained a small number of Gaddafi loyalists and snipers in Sirte. The interim government has dispatched some fighters to do the mop-up and clear up the dead bodies of both sides scattered around the city and some leftover bombs and mines.

Apart from the NTC fighters, Sirte is rather empty. There is still no sign that the local residents would return.

The roads are covered with shells of bullets and bombs and damaged buildings with holes made by gun shots could be seen everywhere. But the NTC fighters doing the mop-up are full of hope for the future.

http://dunyanews.tv/index.php?key=Q2F0SUQ9MyNOaWQ9NDYwNTk

[joshcryer]

109. Libyan PM vows election within '8 months, maximum'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44997143/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/">Libyan PM vows election within '8 months, maximum'
Libyans should be allowed to vote within eight months to elect a national council that would draft a new constitution and form an interim government, Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril said Saturday.

After the death of Moammar Gadhafi this week, the priority was to remove weapons from Libya's streets, restore stability and order and begin a process of national reconciliation, Jibril said at the World Economic Forum in Jordan.

"The first election should take place within a period of eight months, maximum, to constitute a national congress of Libya, some sort of parliament," he said.

"This national congress would have two tasks — draft a constitution, on which we would have a referendum, and the second to form an interim government to last until the first presidential elections are held," Jibril added.

[pinboy3niner]

113. Clues to Gaddafi's death concealed from public view

Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:37am GMT

• Muammar Gaddafi's body covered, bullet wound to head masked

• Wounds hold key to how he died after he was captured alive

• Commander: We wanted him alive but things got out of control

• Wounds on body of Gaddafi's son have been stitched up


By Rania El Gamal


MISRATA, Libya, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Libyan forces guarding Muammar Gaddafi's body in a cold storage room on Saturday let in members of the public to view the deposed leader for a second day, but the wounds that may hold the clue to how he died were covered up.

...


But unlike the previous day, Gaddafi's body was covered by a blanket that left only his head exposed, hiding the bruises on his torso and scratch marks on his chest that had earlier been visible.

And, crucially, a Reuters reporter who viewed the body said, Gaddafi's head had been turned to the left. That meant a bullet hole that earlier could be seen on the left side of his face, just in front of his ear, could no longer be seen.

...


A local military commander in the city of Misrata, where the force which captured him took his body, said "over-enthusiastic" fighters took matters into their own hands when they came face to face with the man they despise.

"We wanted to keep him alive but the young guys, things went out of control," he said speaking on condition of anonymity.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LM0CC20111022?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

114. Libya's ex-intelligence chief spotted in Niger

AFP – 1 hr 38 mins ago


Libya's former intelligence chief Abdallah al Senussi, wanted by the International Criminal Court, has been spotted in northern Niger, a government source in the capital Niamey said Saturday.

"The presence of Abdallah al Senussi has been indicated in the far north of Niger" near the border with Libya, the source told AFP.

"It's a report that we have but our defence and security forces have not yet intercepte him," the source said. "So his presence in Niger is not yet officially established."

Senussi, 62, is the brother-in-law and former right-hand man of Libya's slain former dictator Moamer Kadhafi.

The ICC issued arrest warrants on June 27 for Kadhafi, his son and longtime heir-apparent Seif al-Islam, who remains at large, and Senussi on charges of crimes against humanity.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/libyas-ex-intelligence-chief-spotted-niger-112313274.html

[pinboy3niner]

116. Doubts cast on official Gaddafi death account

Source: Al Jazeera

NTC member says investigation needed as to how toppled Libyan leader ended up dead after being captured alive.

Last Modified: 22 Oct 2011 14:05


A member of Libya’s ruling National Transtitional Council (NTC) has voiced doubts over the exact circumstances of Muammar Gaddafi's death, raising questions over earlier claims that the deposed leader had been killed in a crossfire.

Waheed Burshan told Al Jazeera on Saturday that Gaddafi was clearly captured alive and there should be an investigation as to how he ended up dead a short while later.

“We found that he was alive and then he was dead. And as far as we can tell there was no fight. Was there a fight when transporting him to Misrata? We don’t know. But there was definitely a time gap and I am sure an investigation will happen.”

Burshan’s comments, contradicting Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril's account that Gaddafi was killed in a crossfire, comes a day after the UN called for a probe into the death.

Christof Heyns, the UN Special Rapporteur on extra-judicial executions, told Al Jazeera on Friday that the manner of the deposed Libyan leader's killing could be a war crime.

...


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111022133513323321.html

[pinboy3niner]

117. Libya Commanders: No Post-Mortem On Gaddafi

Source: Sky News

Military commanders in Libya have said there will not be a post-mortem examination on the body of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, despite concerns over how he died.

...


Libya's interim leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said an investigation was being carried out.

But Misratah military council spokesman Fathi al Bashaagha said: "There will be no post-mortem today, nor any day. No one is going to open up his body."

His comments were confirmed by two other Misratah military commanders.

Sky News has seen Col Gaddafi's death certificate, which states he had gunshot wounds to the left side of his head and his chest.

...


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/calls-inquiry-amid-gaddafi-death-mystery-033558790.html

[pinboy3niner]

118. Fierce clashes erupt in Yemeni capital

AFP – 12 mins ago


At least five people died in fierce clashes in Yemen's capital between President Ali Abdullah Saleh's troops and rival forces on Saturday, a day after the UN urged the embattled leader to hand over power.

Witnesses and AFP correspondents in Sanaa said explosions were heard throughout Sanaa and massive plumes of smoke and fire were seen rising from several neighbourhoods where opposition forces are stationed.

An AFP correspondent said ambulances were seen racing out of the Hasaba district that is home to tribal chief Sheikh Sadeq al-Ahmar and his brothers, whose armed tribesmen have been battling Saleh's troops for weeks.

The war-torn district has become a ghost town, sealed off by Saleh's troops, with no one allowed in or out, according to an AFP correspondent on the scene.

Medical officials said five dissident soldiers were killed and "dozens" of other people wounded, including unarmed civilians.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/fierce-clashes-erupt-yemeni-capital-093204415.html

[rug]

119. Have Libya’s rebels committed war crimes?

TRIPOLI, Libya — Libya’s National Transitional Council, the country’s new governing authority, must bring rebel forces under its control and stop what appears to be rampant arbitrary arrests and revenge killings, Amnesty International said today.

While the war crimes committed by Muammar Gaddafi and his forces are comparatively well known, Amnesty International said in a report that the rebels had also committed widespread abuses since the revolution began in February, including the execution of dozens of pro-Gaddafi prisoners. Hundreds of black migrant workers, assumed to be mercenaries, have also been detained and are being held illegally, the rights group said.

http://www.salon.com/2011/09/13/libya_rebel_war_crimes

The best history is the complete history.

[pinboy3niner]

121. News of this Amnesty report was posted in these threads September 12:

Libya war threatens spiral of rights abuse - Amnesty
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1923083&mesg_id=1927065

[pinboy3niner]

120. Son tried to broker deal to save Gaddafi 10 days before he was killed--Sky News

Meanwhile, Sky sources have revealed that one of Col Gaddafi's sons - Saadi - tried to broker a deal to save him 10 days before he was captured and killed. He is said to have phoned the most senior military leader in Tripoli, but his plea was rebuffed.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/calls-inquiry-amid-gaddafi-death-mystery-033558790.html

[pinboy3niner]

122. Activists: Syrian troops hunt activists, kill 5

By ZEINA KARAM - Associated Press | AP – 16 mins ago

BEIRUT (AP) — Syrian activists say thousands of troops have fanned out through suburbs of the capital Damascus in search of regime opponents, arresting dozens of people.

They say five people were killed in security operations throughout the country on Saturday.

http://news.yahoo.com/activists-syrian-troops-hunt-activists-kill-5-150426457.html

[pinboy3niner]

123. Gaddafi unburied, Libyans face test of new era

Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:13pm GMT

• Gaddafi's body on show in Misrata

• Interim premier confirms standing down on Saturday

• Gaddafi family, rights groups want death investigated


By Rania El Gamal and Tim Gaynor


MISRATA, Libya, Oct 22 (Reuters) - As Muammar Gaddafi lay still unburied, Libya's outgoing premier said the coming days posed a crucial test of resolve for the new men of power, who are wrangling over the body, and about a formal end to the war.

Mahmoud Jibril confirmed he would step down on Saturday after seven months as prime minister of the Western-backed rebel government now that the legal declaration of "liberation" was expected on Sunday following Gaddafi's killing on Thursday.

But in a parting shot from an international business forum in Jordan, the former expatriate academic who has many critics in the motley coalition that ousted Gaddafi two months ago, warned that now was not a time for in-fighting if Libyans were to keep to a plan to hold their first free election next year.

Leaders required "resolve", he said, "in the next few days."

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LL4AT20111022

[robdogbucky]

124. What will you three do now?

All that bandwidth to use up everyday?

[al bupp]

136. Hopefully, they will take a well-deserved break!

Josh, pb39er, Tabatha, Iterate & lately Ellisonz, great work you all!

:fistbump: :grouphug: :toast:

Who knows, maybe there will soon be a Syria thread...

[tabatha]

I am going to follow Syria on AJE.

I have followed all revolutions closely - South Africa, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya.

Hope Yemen and Syria are next in getting rid of their tyrants.

During the week it is not a distraction. My daily work is on the computer, and while waiting for some processes to finish, with a click of the mouse, I can read stuff on the internet.

[al bupp]

142. Moi aussi

Pretty much in the same boat here. See you there!

[joshcryer]

188. Take a break from DU 'til election season kicks up, then go back to E&E... NaNoWriMo is coming up...

...probably write a book or two. Not on Libya, most likely. I am saving all of these threads, from the point I took over, do some statistics on it, see how many reports we did (I think it's over 20k reports, not including personal commentary).

I think there's a good chance we have a lifetime friendship built here and that ultimately we're all going to head to Libya a year or two after they've had their elections and things have stabilized a lot. I'm building a house in the Arizona desert, all solar powered, lifetime dream of mine, would be interesting to share the technology with Northern African's (not just Libyan's, though they do have the lions share of desert, but Tunisia, Egypt and Chad, basically all states in the Sahara), that's a very long term dream, though. Libya's riches are not in oil, which will be mostly gone when the contracts are up, but vast desert which can power all of Africa and Europe. Weird how right now AJE is doing a report on concentrated solar power in Africa (I'm watching because Jalil is to speak today about the liberation of Libya).

What people may not know is that while the Libyan Revolution was long, I did http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=228692&mesg_id=228692">something similar with regards to the Earth's satellite temperature record. Not nearly as many posts, though, barely filled one thread. :)

[pinboy3niner]

199. I will finally get to do my Spring cleaning

BTW, in the military, E&E stands for Escape and Evasion. Which may be fitting, in this case... :evilgrin:

[tabatha]

204. Yep, I have a book in mind, too.

What are your topics? Not necessary to divulge.

GHeinz is going to do business in Libya - mainly environmental, and possibly work on recycling all that scrap metal.

There are bloggers on AJE who are going to go visit Libyans they met on that blog.

After these blogs are over, AJE blogs are a good place to get some info. Look out for Libyans Azizor and Hisham. Hisham has a remarkable life story. His uncle was executed in the 1990s for trying to overthrow Gaddafi. His sister went to medical school with Hanna Gaddafi. I think Hisham wants to start a tourist business.

[pinboy3niner]

125. Arab strongman: With Gadhafi death, an era passes

By ROBERT H. REID - Associated Press | AP – 35 mins ago


CAIRO (AP) — He often looked like a comical buffoon, standing before audiences, regaled in colorful robes, spouting words that most of the world considered nonsense.

Yet the death of Moammar Gadhafi was a milestone in modern Arab history, in some ways more significant than the overthrow of lesser autocrats in Tunisia and Egypt.

Gadhafi was the last of the old-style Arab strongmen — the charismatic, nationalist revolutionaries who rose to power in the 1950s and 1960s, promising to liberate the masses from the shackles of European colonialism and the stultifying rule of the Arab elite that the foreigners left behind after World War II.

He was swept aside by a new brand of revolutionary — the leaderless crowds organized by social media, fed up with the oppressive past, keenly aware that the rest of the world has left them behind and convinced that they can build a better society even if at the moment, they aren't sure how.

Gadhafi was the last of a generation of Arab leaders such as Gamal Abdel-Nasser of Egypt, Hafez Assad of Syria and Saddam Hussein of Iraq who emerged from poverty, rising to the pinnacle of power either through the ranks of the military or the disciplined, conspiratorial world of underground political organizations.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/arab-strongman-gadhafi-death-era-passes-151535237.html

[pinboy3niner]

126. Was Muammar Gaddafi executed? ("...a guy with a gun killed him with one shot to his head")

Source: Global Post

A rebel soldier at the scene says so. And so do human rights groups.

Tracey SheltonOctober 22, 2011 11:16


MISRATA, Libya — As Libya celebrates the beginning of a new era, and begins to look toward the future, the eyes of the world have instead turned toward the past, focusing in on the circumstances of Col. Muammar Gaddafi's initial capture and his subsequent death.

The official line on the day the dictator died was that he suffered fatal wounds during a gun battle in Sirte, his hometown. He died in a crossfire, the National Transitional Council, or NTC, announced. But as cell phone videos quickly began to emerge, so did questions.

Now, a rebel soldier who was at the scene, says that he witnessed Gaddafi's execution.

"When we arrived there we saw Gaddafi,” said Adam Abu Zaid, referring to the drain pipe where the rebel soldiers first found Gaddafi taking cover. “They caught him and they put him in the road and we just kicked him and kicked him and after that a guy with a gun killed him with one shot to his head. After that they took the body and we put it in an ambulance."

...


http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111022/muammar-gaddafi-executed-dead-killed

[pinboy3niner]

127. Gadhafi's demise and the Arab Spring

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• Scholar says 2011 "is to the Arabs what 1989 was to the communist world"

• U.N. resolutions, NATA sorties helped in Libya but are unlikely elsewhere

• The power of the state remains formidable in a majority of Arab countries

• The overthrow of three leaders doesn't change the dilemmas that Arab world faces

By Tim Lister, CNN
updated 1:00 PM EST, Fri October 21, 2011


(CNN) -- Three gone (Gadhafi, Mubarak, Ben Ali), two holding on in the face of daily protests (al-Assad, Saleh), two more (Kings Abdullah of Jordan and Mohammed of Morocco) trying to stay ahead of the curve of protest: After 10 months of the Arab Spring, the region is still in the throes of a heady and unpredictable transformation.

Moammar Gadhafi's demise, after the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt and Zine El Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia, means that three rulers in power collectively for 95 years are gone. Scholar and author Fouad Ajami, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, says that 2011 "is to the Arabs what 1989 was to the communist world. The Arabs are now coming into ownership of their own history and we have to celebrate."

Protesters in Yemen and Syria may be re-energized by the pictures from Sirte, Libya, showing the almost pathetic end of a ruler whose flowing robes and uniforms had long given him an aura of invincibility. Demonstrators in Syrian cities celebrated Gadhafi's death and warned President Bashar al-Assad that he would be next. As one Syrian activist told CNN: "The clear fate of all who kill his people is to end up under the feet of the nation."

Former Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri (no friend of the Syria regime) said: "Any Arab citizen, watching the course of events in Libya, cannot but think of the popular revolutionary movement that is taking place in Syria."

There has been one refrain common across the Arab world this year -- from the dusty streets of Sidi Bouzid in Tunisia, where it all began, to the barricades that litter Homs in Syria today: "The fear is gone, the people have put away their fear." Those words, spoken by Tunisian activist Sana Ben Achour in January, have echoed across the region ever since. It was quickly followed by a chant: "The people want the downfall of the regime."

...


http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/world/gadhafi-arab-spring/index.html?hpt=wo_c1

[ellisonz]

130. Gaddafi's body is latest war trophy for Misrata

Gaddafi's body is latest war trophy for Misrata
ReutersBy Barry Malone | Reuters – 18 minutes ago

------

CITIES JOSTLE FOR POWER

Gaddafi's body has become a grisly attraction for the city's residents as it awaits burial. Two other "trophies," among the fallen leader's most eye-catching possessions, were also driven to Misrata after its fighters overran his Tripoli compound.

The most visible is Gaddafi's symbol of his contempt for the West; a giant golden statue of a hand crushing a U.S. warplane. It now stands, sprayed with revolutionary slogans and painted with Libya's new flag, on Misrata's Tripoli Street which was razed during the bombardment.

"I think there are some people in Tripoli who might be wanting that back," one Western diplomat said as he looked at the statue.

-------

To the statue's right, precariously perched on the footpath outside the museum, is the other big Tripoli trophy; a giant statue of an eagle looted from the roof of Gaddafi's home inside his Bab al-Aziziya headquarters and command center.

------

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/gaddafis-body-latest-war-trophy-misrata-164918930.html

[Iterate]

131. People who were wrong: Benjamin Barber

Plenty of people have been wrong, and no one has been right about everything. Everyone has their favorites for the category, but near the top of my list I would put Benjamin Barber, the well-paid Monitor polisher of Saif Gaddafi's image, a prolific academic from Harvard, and neocon. In the interests of full disclosure, he's sometimes described is being on the "left", especially by those on the right who don't want to claim him.

Barberism of the Left
Posted on October 22, 2011 by Steven Hayward in Liberals

For sheer comic relief, it seldom gets any better than to take in the thoughts of the internationally renowned political theorist Benjamin Barber. How do I know Barber is “internationally renowned”? Because his own website tells us so. Clearly he doesn’t suffer from low self-esteem. (In this week of dramatic events in Libya, it may be worth recalling my observations about Barber’s toadying to Kadafy in National Review a few months ago.)

more... http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/10/barberism-of-the-left.php

Evidently he thinks of himself as a liberal...

Calling All Liberals: It's Time to Fight
Benjamin R. Barber October 19, 2011
http://www.thenation.com/article/164071/calling-all-liberals-its-time-fight

...but not so liberal as to think it was time for Libyans to fight when they did. I don't recall if his advice for them was to run or stand still while being fired upon. He did warn them though that there was no hope:

Why Libya Will Not Be Democratic
Benjamin R. Barber
Author of 'Strong Democracy' and 'Jihad vs. McWorld' Posted: February 22, 2011 03:16 PM

I offer my views about Libya here not just as a democratic theorist and HuffPost regular, but as a member of the International Board of the Gaddafi International Charity and Development Foundation until this morning, when I resigned. The only two questions worth speculating about in the absence of hard information from Libya about what is happening there today is to think about what might happen tomorrow: What are the possible scenarios if Gadhafi survives the tumult and violence? And what happens if he does not survive? And the one thing I am certain about is that, either way, the outcome is likely to be tragic rather than democratic.

...

Chances are three or four to one that his revolution is over. But there is still a slim chance he could survive, and if he does, all those who cast him as nothing more than a monstrous buffoon will have to rethink their easy dismissal and deal with stark reality again. Monstrous maybe, buffoon not. And if he goes, we still we have to take the measure of what might have been, had Saif chosen his country over his clan.
more... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-r-barber/libya-gadhafi-future_b_826718.html

He did call the end correctly, but couldn't bring himself to trust the Libyan people or to give up on goodbuddy Saif. Lest you think he has real foresight, there is this gem:

Gaddafi's Libya: An Ally for America?
By Benjamin R. Barber Wednesday, August 15, 2007

The real architect of the release(of the Bulgarian nurses) was Libya's leader. Written off not long ago as an implacable despot, Gaddafi is a complex and adaptive thinker as well as an efficient, if laid-back, autocrat. Unlike almost any other Arab ruler, he has exhibited an extraordinary capacity to rethink his country's role in a changed and changing world.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081401328.html

The main reason that I think he deserves a "go sit in the corner" award is for this defense of Saif, published well after another of Saif's "four red lines speeches" and the ABC speech. It was a month after the ICC investigation had begun and just weeks before the request for a warrant. Still he had some Saif for sale:

Yes, Saif is a Gaddafi. But there's still a real reformer inside
Benjamin Barber The Guardian, Wednesday 13 April 2011

And then there is Saif's foundation, on whose international board I served until I resigned in protest at the outset of the insurgency. The foundation did serious work on human rights, free media, electronic democracy, civil society and the rehabilitation of Islamist fighters held in Libyan prisons. The need for its work was made clear by Saif himself in a remarkable speech to the Libyan National Youth Conference in 2006, where Saif said: "We have no free press. There is no press in Libya at all. We deceive ourselves when we say that we have press. Does Libya have people's authority and a direct democracy really? … All of you know that the democratic system that we dreamed of does not exist in the realm of reality." On the wrong side of freedom now, Saif still continues to work to release captured journalists and counteract the violence of his militant brothers, Mutassim (the security chief) and Khamis (who commands a deadly brigade).

Just last year the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace wrote: "For much of the last decade, Gaddafi's son Saif was the public face of human rights reform in Libya and the Gaddafi Foundation was the country's only address for complaints about torture, arbitrary detention, and disappearances."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/13/saif-gaddafi-real-reformer-inside

[pinboy3niner]

132. In His Last Days, Qaddafi Wearied of Fugitive’s Life

Source: New York Times

By KAREEM FAHIM
Published: October 22, 2011


MISURATA, Libya — After 42 years of absolute power in Libya, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi spent his last days hovering between defiance, anger and delusion, surviving on rice and pasta his guards scrounged from the emptied civilian houses he moved between every few days, according to an aide captured with him.

Under siege by the former rebels for weeks, Colonel Qaddafi grew impatient with life on the run in the city of Surt, said the aide, Mansour Dhao Ibrahim, the leader of the country’s People Guard, a network of loyalist volunteers and informants. “He would say: ‘Why is there no electricity? Why is there no water?’ ”

Mr. Dhao, who stayed close to Colonel Qaddafi throughout the siege, said that he and other aides repeatedly counseled the colonel to leave power or the country, but that the colonel and one of his sons, Muatassim, would not even consider the option.

Still, though some of the colonel’s supporters portrayed him as bellicose to the end, armed at the front lines, he actually did not take part in the fighting, Mr. Dhao said, instead preferring to read or make calls on his satellite phone. “I’m sure not a single shot was fired,” he said.

...


Colonel Qaddafi fled to Surt on the day Tripoli fell, in a small convoy. “He was very afraid of NATO,” said Mr. Dhao, who joined him about a week later. The decision to stay in the city had been Muatassim’s, who reasoned that the city, long known as an important pro-Qaddafi stronghold and under frequent bombardment by NATO airstrikes, was the last place anyone would look.

...


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/world/africa/in-his-last-days-qaddafi-wearied-of-fugitives-life.html

[pinboy3niner]

133. 3 killed in Syria as Tehran ups pressure on Damascus

AFP – 57 mins ago


Syrian security forces killed three civilians and arrested dozens more on Saturday, activists said, while state media was mum about the death of ex-Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi, the third Arab leader overthrown by popular revolts this year.

Meanwhile, Iran, Syria's key ally, took a tougher stance against the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, openly condemning its crackdown on dissent that has left more than 3,000 people dead, most of them civilians, according to the United Nations.

...


Pro-democracy activists called for fresh demonstrations on Sunday under the banner "It is your turn," a reference to Assad, expressing their hope he will become the next Arab leader to fall.

"It seems that the death of Kadhafi closed a chapter," Jean-Yves Moisseron, a regional expert at France's Institute of Development Research, told AFP.

"If the situation stabilises in Libya, the pressure on Bashar al-Assad will be extremely strong," he said.


http://news.yahoo.com/3-killed-syria-tehran-ups-pressure-damascus-173429473.html

[pinboy3niner]

134. Gaddafi's Body To Go To His Extended Family

Sky News – 1 hour 12 minutes ago


Colonel Gaddafi's dead body is to be handed to his extended family in a deal reached with Libya's interim government, Sky News has learned.

The National Transitional Council's (NTC) foreign affairs spokesman Ahmed Gebreel said the handover may be imminent.

But he admitted it had not yet been decided where the dictator will be buried, which will be crucial to avoid his grave becoming a shrine.

Mr Gebreel told Sky News: "I think the decision has been taken already, which is to hand over the body of Gaddafi to his extended family.

...


He added: "There are consultations between the NTC and Gaddafi's family. It is in the interests of his family and the whole country to bury Gaddafi in a secret place but this has not been decided yet."

...


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/calls-inquiry-amid-gaddafi-death-mystery-033558790.html

[tabatha]

137. What a load of crock. Once again the jealous in action.

OBAMA AND LIBYA: HOLD THE TRIUMPHALISM, PLEASE

Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2011
by Elliott Abrams

After the death of Muammar Gaddafi, Administration spokesmen and those journalists who pretty much take dictation from them have been triumphant. This was, they have said, final proof of the exquisite brilliance of Obama policy in Libya (despite the “howling” of critics, to quote DavidIgnatius).

I would hold off on the triumphalism, for the Obama approach had many flaws.

The limitations imposed on the use of American military power lengthened the Libyan internal conflict. The Transitional National Council estimated a total of 25,000 dead and 60,000 wounded. Had we acted faster and not restricted the American role, those numbers would be smaller—perhaps far smaller, and the damage to Libya’s infrastructure also smaller. And had we used more air power to end the war faster, in weeks instead of months, perhaps the Libyan regime’s arsenals, including the extremely dangerous MANPAD shoulder-launched missiles, could have been captured intact. Instead, stolen Libyan weaponry will present a threat for years to come.

Those limitations on the use of American power also shook NATO. NATO is an alliance always led by the United States, which is why its commander is always an American. When the United States backs away from leadership (the phrase “leading from behind” became famous during the Libya conflict), O allies question our broader commitment to NATO. They wonder how we will approach the next crisis and whether we will lead “from behind” or indeed not at all. These questions are asked not only by NATO allies but by others whose security is linked to our willingness to act. Arab interlocutors with whom I have spoken have said that the American approach in Libya shook their faith that we would ever protect them from Iran. (The Administration’s reaction to the Iranian terrorist plot that might have blown up a restaurant in downtown Washington will, of course, add to those doubts.)

http://egyptday1.blogspot.com/2011/10/obama-and-libya-hold-triumphalism.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Egyptday1NowWhat+%28EgyptDay1%2C+Now+What%3F%29

Yeah like Iraq and Afghanistan were not flawed, and complete failures.

[pinboy3niner]

140. In Abrams' case, it's more a matter of PNAC than jealousy

He's an early neocon and a PNAC signatory. We know where they're coming from.

[tabatha]

139. Oh, the fucking irony. Take that Elliott Abrams. Lots of photos, please.

A shout-out to everyone in Benghazi to gather around at the western entrance of the city (Gawarsha Gate) to greet and welcome our returning heroes who have been away for months fighting at front lines.

The heroes will be welcomed and greeted with roses and sweets, and it will hopefully be a huge beautiful celebration.

Today 22/10/2011, 4pm (Libya time) at the western entrance of Benghazi Gawarsha Gate.

http://twitter.com/#!/shababLibya

----------------- other tweets


Thanku4theAnger THANKU4THEANGER
Just met two injured FFs. Their fortitude, optimism & positivity is truly astonishing. Libya is truly blessed with these men #feb17
17 minutes ago

Thanku4theAnger THANKU4THEANGER
With #Feb17 we rediscovered the love, affection & brotherhood between Libyans that Gaddafi's regime systematically tried to destroy #Libya
19 minutes ago

Fanua Fanua
by Thanku4theAnger
NTC declares October 23, 2011 a public holiday for the declaration of liberation, to be made from Benghazi Tahrir Square. #Libya #Feb17
1 hour ago

ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
Also a point that needs to be made, we do not rejoice over the death of a man but the rebirth of a great nation #libya
10 hours ago

[pinboy3niner]

141. 'Scuse me while I whip this out...

It's time for...the jimmypic!



The number of posts in this thread is too damn high!


No pressure, Josh...


:evilgrin:

[joshcryer]

167. Working on it, my friend.

I wanted to let it go today because I just know the unreccers will be in force for the 'last' thread (likely the next one, since it will be announced today Libya time that is liberated).

[pinboy3niner]

145. INTERVIEW-Tunisia martyr's mother: honour my son's sacrifice

Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:29pm GMT

• Mohamed Bouazizi started Arab Spring by setting self on fire

• His mother says free elections a victory for her son

• New leaders 'must help the poor and unemployed' like Bouazizi


By Tarek Amara


TUNIS, Oct 22 (Reuters) - The mother of Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian man who set himself on fire in an act of protest which inspired the Arab Spring, urged the new leaders the country is electing on Sunday to honour her son's sacrifice by helping poor people like him.

"These elections are a moment of victory for my son who died defending dignity and liberty," Manoubia Bouazizi, 53, told Reuters in an interview on Saturday, hours before polling stations open in Tunisia's first ever free election.

"Nothing would have happened if my son had not reacted against voicelessness and a lack of respect."

"But I hope the people who are going to govern will be able to keep this message in mind and give consideration to all Tunisians, including the poor," she said, her eyes moist with emotion as she recalled her son.

Bouazizi, an unemployed university graduate in the provincial town of Sidi Bouzid, set himself on fire after he was driven to despair by police who confiscated his unlicensed fruit and vegetable cart. He later died in hospital.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LM0UG20111022?sp=true

[tabatha]

146. Gaddfi's death

Aisha WORLDLOVERPEACE is Tweeting that her (journalist) fixer, an unemployed engineer, Omran al Aweyb, was the commander whose troops captured Gaddafi. Says he never wanted to have to fight but became a brave commander through really bad times. Apparently says "things got out of hand". Told her he was very sorry because he had wanted to take him alive. His brother was killed Fri. apparently, also.

[pinboy3niner]

148. GRAFFITI IN TRIPOLI: ‘THANK NATO USA FRANCE ENGLAND’

Posted in GD by kpete:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2167928

[tabatha]

150. WOMEN AND MEN welcome back the fighters to BENGHAZI

http://youtu.be/XEUi6ZLzii4
(If you cannot see any women, listen for their ululating)

Mo, the battle was won!

[pinboy3niner]

154. Clashes in Yemeni capital kill 20

By GAMAL ABDUL-FATTAH - Associated Press | AP – 1 hr 1 min ago


SANAA, Yemen (AP) — Clashes between Yemeni government troops and a renegade army unit killed at least 20 people, including three civilians, in the capital Sanaa on Saturday, officials said.

The fighting broke out early Saturday between renegade soldiers joined by allied tribal fighters and government forces in the Hassaba neighborhood. The district has been the scene of a tense standoff for months between forces loyal to embattled President Ali Abdullah Saleh and rivals who have sided with protesters demanding the longtime leader step down.

Saleh has managed to cling to power despite the mass demonstrations and growing international pressure resign. On Friday, the U.N. Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution urging Saleh to immediately accept a power transfer deal and end escalating violence.

A government official said Saturday the regime is ready to deal "positively" with the resolution.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/clashes-yemeni-capital-kill-20-213003479.html

[pinboy3niner]

155. FREE LIBRA WRAPUP DAY 3: CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 1 AM SUNDAY, OCTOBER 23

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, UTC +1 hour, GMT +2 hours

[tabatha]

156. Welcome back to Benghazi

[tabatha]

158. A Libyan revolutionary fighter returning from Sirte cries

A Libyan revolutionary fighter returning from Sirte cries as he is welcomed at Al Guwarsha gate in Benghazi, Libya, Saturday Oct. 22, 2011.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=222134517852372&set=pu.133738650025293&type=1&theater

[pinboy3niner]

159. CNN's Arwa Damon doing a live story now on Mo

Their title: "Honoring Mohammed Nabbous."

Look for this to be posted in CNN videos later.


R.I.P., Mo

[pinboy3niner]

161. Libyan PM says wishes Gaddafi had not been killed

Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:44pm GMT


LONDON Oct 22 (Reuters) - Libya's Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril said in an interview with the BBC on Saturday he wished former dictator Muammar Gaddafi had not been killed and instead had been put on trial for his crimes.

Gaddafi's body remained on public display in Libya on Saturday, bearing wounds assumed to have been inflicted by fighters who hauled him from a drain in his hometown Sirte.

"To be honest with you at the personal level I wish he was alive. I want to know why he did this to the Libyan people," the BBC quoted Jibril as saying in remarks made available ahead of broadcast early on Sunday.

"I wish I were his prosecutor in his trial, you know," he added. "Because this is the question which is in everybody's mind: Why? Did the Libyan people deserve what he did throughout 42 years of oppression, of killing, of everything?"

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LM0WN20111022

[pinboy3niner]

163. Tunisian Islamists to do well in first "Arab Spring" vote

Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:22pm GMT

• Tunisians vote after uprising removed Ben Ali

• Eyes of region on first Arab Spring election

• Islamists expected to win but coalitions expected


By Andrew Hammond and Tarek Amara


TUNIS, Oct 23 (Reuters) - Islamists are expected to do well in Tunisia's first democratic election on Sunday, 10 months after the ouster of autocratic leader Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali in a popular uprising that set off protest movements around the Arab world.

The Ennahda party will almost certainly win a share of power after the vote, which will set a democratic standard for other Arab countries where uprisings have triggered political change or governments have tried to rush reforms to stave off unrest.

Sunday's vote is for an assembly which will draft a new constitution to replace the one Ben Ali manipulated to entrench his power. It will also appoint an interim government and set elections for a new president and parliament.

...


Ennahda, banned under Ben Ali who is now in exile in Saudi Arabia, is expected to gain the biggest share of votes. But the Islamist party will probably not win enough to give it a majority in the assembly and will seek to lead a coalition.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LM0TM20111022?sp=true

[pinboy3niner]

164. Rebel answered Gaddafi daughter's desperate phone call. Told her: Old Fuzzhead is dead

Posted in GD by snagglepuss:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2168813

[pinboy3niner]

165. Rebels: Gadhafi's son Saif al-Islam captured alive

They say they've also nabbed slain Libya leader's spokesman; both men uninjured


NBC News and news services

updated 44 minutes ago


Slain dictator Moammar Gadhafi's influential son and heir-apparent, Saif al-Islam, has been captured alive and uninjured, rebel sources told NBC News on Saturday.

Saif al-Islam and Moussa Ibrahim, the former spokesman for the Gadhafi's regime, were both captured in the Libyan city of Nessma, near Bani Walid, and were currently being transported to Misrata, rebel forces told NBC News.

The collaring of Gadhafi's fugitive son and spokesman could not be immediately verified. Rebel forces have been incorrect in the past with their reporting of the conditions and whereabouts of Gadhafi's loyalists.

Saif al-Islam Gadhafi, whose name means "Sword of Islam," was the most elusive of the late Libyan leader's eight offspring. He was wanted on war crimes charges but evaded a manhunt for months to remain the only leading family member still at large.

...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45000464/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

[joshcryer]

166. If they can keep him alive they will have their trial. I hope the death of Gaddafi has released...

...anger that otherwise would have been pushed on Saif.

[tabatha]

168. I think the Gaddafi shooter was a kid who did not

know what he was doing. Apparently, he is underage and cannot be tried.

[ellisonz]

187. I hope they give them a perp walk through Martyrs Square.

}(

[pinboy3niner]

170. Canada’s role in Gadhafi’s fall

Posted in GD by pampango:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2168967

[tabatha]

175. Eat your hearts out neocons

SWEETS


FLOWERS

[pinboy3niner]

176. Perfect!

:rofl:

[Bobbie Jo]

179. Excellent work, joshcryer!

Thank you! :yourock:

[pinboy3niner]

180. Amen!

[tabatha]

184. Words by Mandela for this time.

To overthrow oppression has been sanctioned by humanity
and is the highest aspiration of every free man.
Nelson Mandela, September 1953

During my lifetime I have dedicated myself
to this struggle of the African people.
I have fought against white domination,
and I have fought against black domination.
I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society
in which all persons live together
in harmony and with equal opportunities.
It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve.
But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.
Nelson Mandela


Vive Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt, Syria and the 99ers.

[ellisonz]

186. Gaddafi quotes: The dead Libya dictator in his own words - top 20 quotes

Gaddafi quotes: The dead Libya dictator in his own words - top 20 quotes
Tripoli : Libya | Oct 22, 2011 at 2:04 AM PDT
By Asim Mukhtar send a private message

Here are 20 of his most striking soundbytes taking in America, Islam, terrorism, democracy and the evils of Coca Cola and Pepsi.

1) Nothing would please me more, but who else would pump the oil that we need? God damn America.

2) We believe America is practicing all kinds of terrorism against Libya. Even the accusation that we are involved in terrorism is in itself an act of terrorism.

3) Lincoln was a man who created himself from nothing without any help from outside or other people. I followed his struggles. I see certain similarities between him and me.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10679770-gaddafi-quotes-the-dead-libya-dictator-in-his-own-words-top-20-quotes

[mark7sys]

208. "I see certain similarities between him and me."

Having never become known as ol' honest Muammar, I reckon the similarities are mostly lost on other people.

Lincoln was a man who created himself from nothing without any help from outside or other people. I followed his struggles. I see certain similarities between him and me.

Hope someone washed out his mouth with lye after he said that.

Having both been born to nothing, Lincoln became a great man, not a great monster: big difference.



(And Mr. Lincoln never had to erect monuments to himself, either.)

[tabatha]

189. OnlyOneLibya ProudLibyan - signing off from tweeting

(or tweeting off - read from bottom up)

I will leave my tweets online & not close the account,all of us should as a witness 2 the past difficult months.Thank u all 4 warm wishes :)

As Mohamed Nabous said, our martyr said, Long Live #Libya, long live free Libya. I love you all, I love Libya & goodbye goo.gl/N8gPf

Alhamdolilah. Thank you very much to every one, thank you to my Libyan brothers and sisters, thanks to all our friends.

U stood with us,u gave,u made sure word spread of what Gaddafi regime was doing,all this collective action helped us beyond ur perception

There were particular peroids, when Misrata was being bombarded, Zawiyah, Benghazi etc, we felt so helpless & u gave us hope & assistance

Thanks to those who stood with us, u will never comprehend what ur words of support meant to me personally & to many others like me.

Thus, I come to the end of my tweeting road, I thank everyone who stood with us from all over the world, thank u from the bottom of my heart

It is a time for national reconciliation that is well thought out and implemented. We can do it and God willing we will.

It is not a time of bravdo & showing off. It is a time 2 heal the wounded, 2 grieve our dead and then turn a new leaf and build our nation

Every part of Libya has suffered and all have contributed, some more than others, but they did it for the sake of Allah and country,

We have the weaponized population that we need to reintegrate to civil society.We have and have and have,but above ALL we have to have UNITY

Short term, we have the injured to assist and nurse back to health, both physical and psychological, we have the destruction.

But, now Gaddafi has gone, 1st politically in August and now physically, the real challenges begin, we are faced with many problems.

But the reason we did it was because had trust in Allah, we were united and had a clear vision to reach our goal no matter what.

But we also have to be positive, we have achieved some thought impossible, The Feb17 revolution was mission impossible & we did it.

We Libyans need to remain united, to be inclusive, to be fully aware of the challenges that we face, some of which can destroy our country.

14,663 tweets. Since February 2011, many have lost their lives & health while I sat tweeting away, we owe so much to them.

[tabatha]

191. Now I can tell you about him..... his name is Mohammed

Rick Madonik, Staff Photographer

With last week's developments in Libya, I can finally tell you about a remarkable young man. Due to security concerns, both Mitch Potter and myself have been reluctant to speak about him in any public forum. Mohammed Muttardi, and his family members, would be an easy target for Gadhafi loyalists. (Although Gadhafi is dead, there are still elements loyal to the despot who can, potentially, cause great problems. Before posting this blog, Mohammed was consulted about writing about him. He gave the thumbs up.)

Mitch Potter first visited Tripoli in 2004 as Gadhafi reinvented himself to the West and then Prime Minister Paul Martin met Gadhafi in Tripoli. During the trip, Potter established some contacts, one of which was a young Libyan with a web business. It was through that contact, Potter and I were introduced to Mohammed.

Our first day in Benghazi, I was running around while Potter made contact with Mohammed and sat down with him in our hotel. When I returned to the hotel later that day, I was introduced to Mohammed.

For the next 14 days Mohammed was instrumental in helping Potter and I get our stories out. In his mid 20s, Muttardi is an IT specialist working for a major cell phone provider. Although the parent company was owned by a Gadhafi offspring, Mohammed worked more for the emerging National Transition Council, and foreign media types, than his regular job. His Benghazi bosses were very understanding and cut him a lot of slack. Once in a while, he would have to pull himself away from his work with us, to troubleshoot some issues at his day job.

http://thestar.blogs.com/photoblog/2011/10/now-i-can-tell-you-about-him-his-name-is-mohammed-1.html

[tabatha]

192. Libya, Oct 22, 2011

by Hussein Al-Omari on Saturday, October 22, 2011 at 5:06pm
(Sources: Aljazeera)

1. NTC will announce officially the liberation of all Libyan soil this Sunday at 2 pm GMT time (4 pm Benghazi time).

2. Shammam said the announcement will be made by Abdul-Jalil in main Midan in Benghazi where the revolution started.

3. The Emir of Qatar may be attending the ceremony.

4. Mahmud Jibril will be resigning after the announcement as he had promised.

5. Shammam said there are five nominees to succeed Jibril.

6. Russia proposed to the UN Security Council lifting the air embargo on Libya.

7. The Russian proposal includes cancelling the article about protection of civilians in Libya.

8. NATO announced it will end its operations at the end of the current month.

9. NTC headquarters in Misrata we can confirm the capture of Saif Alislam Qaddafi and Musa Ibrahim the foreign spokesman near Bani Walid.

10. Gaddafi will be buried once the DNA tests are finished. ICC requested DNA tests to close the case.

11. There are international calls for investigation of the death of Gaddafi and his son Moatassem for possible war crimes.

12. Russia is a major country behind investigating the nature of the death of Gaddafi and his son.

13. NTC said that it would not allow an autopsy on Gaddafi. The date and place of burial are still a mystery.

14. There are reports on the monitoring of former intelligence chief in northern Niger.

15. The fate of Saif Al-Gaddafi is still not known. There were rumors he was injured and escaped while others said he was dead.

16. Los Angeles Times revealed that Gaddafi moved secretly $200 billion to the outside.

17. The amount is twice that reported by the western governments so far.

18. Gaddafi family members had access to all these if they wanted.

19. Abdul-Karim Belhaj, head of military council in Tripoli, told AAljazeera .net we won’t allow the politicization of weapons.

20. Belhaj said that using weapons for political purposes is rejected.

21. He said all fighters are willing to turn in their weapons after safety in achieved.

22. Belhaj said the natural place for the fighters who would like to keep their weapons is the official army police.

23. There are unofficial reports that Saif Al-Islam and Musa Ibrahim were captured

[ellisonz]

205. Belhaj rejects violence.

19. Abdul-Karim Belhaj, head of military council in Tripoli, told AAljazeera .net we won’t allow the politicization of weapons.

20. Belhaj said that using weapons for political purposes is rejected.

21. He said all fighters are willing to turn in their weapons after safety in achieved.

22. Belhaj said the natural place for the fighters who would like to keep their weapons is the official army police.

So much for the idea that we don't know who the Libyan revolutionaries are and that Belhaj in particular is a "terrorist."

[pinboy3niner]

206. Belhaj says that...

...but actions speak louder than words as they say. I'll be skeptical about him until I see him living up to his words.

We were told, over and over again, that "We don't know these guys." We got to know the main leaders early on, and the U.S. government sent in a team to vet them before granting recognition. Yet even after our team had been there for months, and had been expanded, we were still told, "We don't know these guys."

Obviously, the Obama administration had enough confidence, after their vetting, to recognize the NTC. Still, there are wildcards like Belhaj. He talks a good game, but with his background there's reason for skepticism. And he already has opposed NTC leaders.

Overall, the NTC has done well--warts and all--in laying the groundwork for going forward. But Belhaj remains an unknown quantity, and what he says means little until we see what he does.

:hi:

[grantcart]

193. Sorry that the work schedule made me tardy to rec this thread

Have to settle for a sincere thank you for all of your threads on Libya.


Well done.

[tabatha]

194. The next thread should be the last. Declaration of Independence.

I just cannot imagine how the Libyans are feeling.

I have a good feeling that Libya is going to be a shining example.

There are going to be problems, as they learn to deal with stuff they have never done before.

But their democracy will happen.

[joshcryer]

197. Libya will be a *beacon* in the entire Arab world. Bank on it.

[grantcart]

203. Don't mean to quibble

And not really an expert on the Arab world but my guess is that the impact will be greater in the non Arab world of North and Saraha Africa.

Most of the Arab world (and non Arab Iran) use a much more collectivist leadership (Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, etc.) than a strong leader dictator although Syria is an obvious imeediate target.

More African states resemble Ghaddafi's lone dictator batshit crazy style of leadership. Ghaddafi was also more successful incultivating his Pan African scheme than Pan Arab although that could be simply a result of the African dictators being cheaper to buy off.

In any case it is a great day for advancing the general idea of self determination of people by establishing their own governments, which always leads to a reduction of poverty and misery.

[joshcryer]

196. The next thread is coming in about 10-15 minutes.

I had something to do and I came back as soon as I was done! Sorry for letting this get so big!

And yes, the next thread will be the last, most likely. As the declaration of liberation is met I will be kill-filling DU for a few months. :hi: :)

[pinboy3niner]

198. No sweat, Josh...

It gives me an excuse to post one...














...last...
















jimmypic... :)

[tabatha]

200. There may be too much stuff for just one more.

It may need two more. I can imagine the pictures.

[joshcryer]

202. I might do one more after that, but it's definitely winding down, tab.

You can always start a picture only thread. :D

[joshcryer]

201. Wrapup part 2 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2170136