Why couldn't Obama express remorse over the way in which Gaddafi was brutalized & executed?

[G_j]

and why must we see it played over and over on the tube? Great lesson for the kids ehh?
Are lynch mobs and executions the new humanitarianism?


I am sickened beyond belief.. :cry:

[Swede]

1. Once captured,he should have had his day in court.

Not just shot on the spot.

[TBMASE]

2. He got his day in court

the sentence was just carried out yesterday

[G_j]

5. really?

I didn't see him come before the international court, did you?

[TBMASE]

12. Obama and our allies decided it was time for him to go

you didn't really think he would survive to be arrested did you?

It was a death sentence.

[ellisonz]

79. He could have surrenered himself. The ICC has had warrants out for months.

He made the choice, and he paid the consequence.

[HopeHoops]

3. We weren't directly involved. It was a local decision by local indiginous forces.

We would have just gone in blasting everything in sight and be left with a pinky to run DNA analysis on to prove it was Ghadaffi.

[phleshdef]

4. Ghaddafi was treated the same way he TAUGHT his people to treat enemies.

They learned their lessons well.

Obama should only be remorseful only something that was his doing. Ghaddafi's execution was not his doing.

[AverageJoe90]

115. I agree completely.

[Codeine]

6. Remorse? WTF?

The guy was a shit. His people grew weary of it and rose up, inspired by the Arab Spring movement. They killed his ass. No remorse needed.

[G_j]

8. each to their own

blood lust is a choice

[dkf]

16. Well we certainly learned a lot about the people who are going to run Libya.

Just as brutal as the old guy.

[Codeine]

33. The Romanians summarily executed Ceausescu

up against a wall after a quick pretend trial. They've done fine.

[dkf]

38. At least they went through the motions.

Showing lip service for the rule of law.

[Codeine]

43. There was exactly as much actual trial involved.

A pantomime trial is not any better than no trial at all. In fact it may be worse -- one simply and honestly ignores the law while the other makes a deliberate mockery of it.

[dkf]

47. Better than shooting the guy upon capture.

At least they had time to consult each other.

[RZM]

100. Poppycock

That was lip service squared. It was the lip service version of lip service, which is essentially meaningless. The army saw that the people weren't having him anymore, so they shot him and his wife ASAP. Part of it was taking the lead of the crowds, part of it was also their desire to draw a line between past and present so they wouldn't have to answer for their own roles in the dictator's regime. That's how revolutions and coups often work. It's a rough business and not everybody involved is a saint.

Tough shit for Muammar. If you seize power, you know that one day it might be seized from you. It's a risk they all take. While it would be nice to give every wrongdoer in the world a free and fair trial, it's not going to happen every time.

[cherokeeprogressive]

92. His wife too. n/t

[sad sally]

124. Except the fact that Nicolae Ceausescu was not deposed by NATO "humanitarian" bombing.

just saying, which by the way devastated Libya's infrastructure back to the Stone Age (Shock and Awe in slow motion).

[Mimosa]

87. Probably.

Do you have any links *before 2008* which detail the crimes of Khaddafi against Libyan citizens?

[Indykatie]

7. Obama is Damned if He Does and Damned if He Doesn't

[Cirque du So-What]

41. But mostly he's just damned

often on the flimsiest of pretexts. Sadly, it's become a blood sport on this website. Why it's tolerated to the extent that it is remains a mystery to me.

[emulatorloo]

54. Mods are afraid of being called " biased" They are scared to even fact check" the obvious lies

[Number23]

72. If you ever find out, can you let the rest of us know?

Why it's tolerated to the extent that it is remains a mystery to me.

It's a mystery to a whole BUNCH of us.

[Cirque du So-What]

9. I'm none too pleased with the way this played out either

but I'm unwilling to believe that Barack Obama's omniscience, omnipotence & omnipresence could have prevented - by remote control, mind you - the actions of a frenzied mob taking out their long-suppressed rage upon a dictator who had been the bane of most Libyans' existence for longer than some of the rioters have lived on this earth. I cant say with any degree with certitude that I would act any differently if I had grown up under a regime that repressed everyone I loved and cared for and had just fought in a protracted insurrection against that dictator. In addition, I see no purpose to be served by chiding the individuals responsible, seeing that everyone in a position of authority in this rebellion (those with whom the US government must now establish diplomatic relations) is on record as having sought to keep Gadhafi alive long enough to face trial. Fail points for baseless 'blame Obama' codswollop.

[Tippy]

35. Right on....

[Tarheel_Dem]

49. I only wish there was a rec function for individual posts. Yours is on point.

:thumbsup:

[G_j]

39. I did not intend "remorse" to mean blame. (I'm not blaming Obama)

he could simply have said, the brutality was regretful.

[Cirque du So-What]

44. In what sense, Churrlie?

In precisely what sense of the word do you invoke 'remorse?' In my lexicon (and most dictionaries will bear this out), 'remorse' implies personal regret, moral anguish and a desire for repentance. If you're *not* blaming Obama, then why in pluperfect hell did you choose a word that implies all that culpability on his part? I suggest a trip back to your Funk'n'Wagnalls.

[Capitalocracy]

107. I think what the OP was trying to say

is it would've been nice if Obama would've said hey, you should really probably put people on trial instead of shooting them in the head when you capture them. You know, for next time.

Remorse probably wasn't the right word. And since no one has ever misspoken on the internets, let's string the OP up by the toes.

[sad sally]

118. No can do, would be a double standard. How quickly Osama's "jury/execution/burial"

is forgotten. Oh, and guess Americans can stomach replays over and over of Qaddafi's shot-up bloody body, can even see it laying half-unclothed in a meat truck for everyones viewing pleasure, but bid Laden? Uh, uh, no can do.

[Inuca]

10. Remorse?

Why should HE express remorse? That being said, I DO hate lynch mobs, even when the rage is understandable.

[OHdem10]

11. The Media exploit to get more and more "eyeballs."

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. Oh fer GAAAAWD'S sake

:banghead:

[izquierdista]

14. You won't get a tear out of the uncivilized.

If he had a heart attack in his cell at The Hague (like Milosevic did), those that needed to celebrate their revenge would be disappointed. Civilization is an on-going march; someone has to be at the back of the parade.

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. Because it wasn't American troops who did it

[Nye Bevan]

17. I'm pretty sure that US forces were not involved in Gaddafi's death.

When you repress and brutalize an entire nation, and they eventually rebel and catch up with you, shit tends to happen.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sad sally]

127. Nah, the US just participated in a little shock and awe blow the

country to bits with 40,000 NATO "humanitarian" bombs, but we didn't pull the trigger - our hands are clean.

[IphengeniaBlumgarten]

18. Remorse is for something YOU have done

I think it unlikely that Americans were involved in the way Gaddafi was treated and I don't see that remorse is called for at all. This is a Libyan matter.

[Puzzledtraveller]

19. brutal reality

There was no media whitewashing of the reports and images, in some ways, it may be good to see what really happens in some parts of the world. It does challenge your world view for certain.

[atreides1]

31. Very True

And perhaps the pictures of the Hussein brothers and Qaddafi, may give Republican politicians something to ponder if they keep fucking over the American people!!!

Just an observation on my part.

[cliffordu]

20. Bummer for you.

[G_j]

21. bummer for humanity

:think:

[cliffordu]

24. Are you kidding me???

The whole thing sums up 'Humanity' PERFECTLY.

[G_j]

28. sure, the dark side

lynch mobs go back to the beginning of history, I suppose.

[Poll_Blind]

22. When the President supports extra-judicial executions, do you really have to ask?

Plus, we've been buying oil from the rebels since June. Do you really think he's going to open his mouth and cause some tension between them and us? We want that oil. The US really doesn't give so much of a shit what they do.

Just like it didn't give a shit what Gaddafi did for 40 years up to the point his citizens couldn't take it anymore.

PB

[G_j]

25. not really, but

I felt it needed to be said

[Ignis]

67. +1

Sadly.

[Nye Bevan]

23. Why couldn't FDR and Winston Churchill express remorse over the brutal death of Mussolini? (nt)

[Codeine]

34. Partly because FDR had been dead a few weeks.

;)

[Nye Bevan]

37. Ah.

:blush:

[Tarheel_Dem]

26. Ugh...

:puke:

[sinkingfeeling]

29. Why must real life be sanitized? Part of our collective arrogance is due to never having to

be the victims of wars and rebellion. Would a trial of Gaddafi been anymore humane than that of Saddam? Was Saddam's 'legal execution' not just as barbaric?

[WinkyDink]

52. This is a specious argument. "RL" includes, e.g., defecation, yet THAT is not shown on network TV.

Nor is vomiting, or ....well, you get the point.

[sinkingfeeling]

55. And you totally missed mine.

[Capitalocracy]

108. Here's the difference...

It was wrong because execution is wrong, period. But at least there was a trial, and an execution was considered the appropriate punishment. I disagree with that, I think life in prison is sufficient, but an execution after a trial is still better than an execution without a trial.

[Cruzan]

30. OK

[KoKo]

32. Well ....if our SOS could laugh and say "We Came, We Saw, He Died....

then we shouldn't expect much from our President. :-(

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. All that's missing is he flight suit and banner.

[AngkorWot]

40. Because that would be crocodile tears?

:nopity:

[deacon]

42. Oh grow up. n/t

[dkofos]

45. You've got to be kidding.

He was brutalized & executed by HIS OWN PEOPLE.

He got back what he gave.

Get over it.

[MicaelS]

46. Remorse for a multiple murderer? Rubbish...

The bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie is an excellent reason for Obama not to express ANY remorse. And if Gaddafi had gone before the ICC he would never have been executed for his multiple murders. It's appropriate he died at the hands of his people he had brutalized for so long. I would like to see more of these so called "maximum leaders" dealt with in the same way, executed by their own people.

Unrecc'd.

[G_j]

71. so

So should we be lynching the really bad people here? The tea baggers would like that no doubt.

[AlinPA]

48. Maybe check with the parents of those killed in the Lockerbie bombing flight 103.

[girl_interrupted]

57. +1

[Pedalpower]

111. Trial or not, execution was inevitable...

If he had been killed in battle, this wouldn't be an issue. Just as dead, either way.

I suppose he deserved a mock trial, with mock being the best he could hope to receive in a world run by humans. We all know what the result of that trial would have been. Saddam, anyone?!

In a fair trial, with the best representation stolen money could buy, he might have been acquitted. Would that be much better?

To the purists: nothing will ever be perfect. Get that through your thick skulls. Hope for perfect, but know when to stop criticizing things that are essentially positive.

[WinkyDink]

50. I agree about the TV. Since when, bar lack of foreknowledge, are people shown being KILLED?

[Throd]

51. Because he is fine with it.

[Kennah]

53. There is perhaps an opportunity to play politics here. Follow me.

Obama expresses concern over Gaddafi's apparent summary execution, and asks that more details be provided by the rebels involved--once a new Libya government can be convened.

This should drive the RW absolutely batshit crazier as they start pummeling Obama with, "Gaddafi was a bad guy!"

Demonstrate more hypocrisy on the Reich after they downplaying the death of Gaddafi.

[yoyossarian]

56. Becuz it was WAY COOL!

I'm sickened too...

:puke:

[Lurks Often]

58. Why?

The purpose of a trial is to:

Determine guilt or innocence. Does anybody think Qaddafi was innocent?

and

If found guilty, determine an appropriate punishment and given the circumstances that would mean either death or life without the possibility of parole and there is no sense in rehashing that argument in this thread.

[Rowdyboy]

59. Why would he? It would be hypocritical....

There's no reason for him to be remorseful. He did his job.

Turn the television off and your problem is solved.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

61. Because there is a difference ...

in expressing remorse and outright jubilation and rejoicing.

[JohnnyRingo]

62. Fox news wouldn't run with that, would they?

They already claim he apologizes to the entire world on our behalf, and every viewer believes it.

Are you sure that's what you want to hear for the next 12 months? Do we really want to hear how "The Muslim President" is sorry that Momo is dead?

Fortunately, Obama's smarter than that.

[Enrique]

63. because he is the head of an Empire

saying such a thing will inevitably lead to the disintegration of the Empire. Actually we as good subjects shouldnt be saying such things either.

[HipChick]

64. Why couldn't you express more remorse over the way Gaddafi brutalized and executed his own people

FUCK Gaddafi

He had billions while his people went hungry

[Bake]

65. Let's put the families of the Lockerbie victims on the jury ...

Same result.

Honestly, sometimes this places embarasses me.

Bake

[girl_interrupted]

69. +1

[zappaman]

82. +1000! n/t

[sabrina 1]

84. Why did the Bush/Obama administrations decide to forgive

and forget Lockerbie? Why did they and the Blair parliament return at Gadaffi's request, the man accused of that crime? I recall the families here protesting Obama's and Bush's embrace of Gadaffi. I don't remember anyone supporting their position. In fact I recall many people stating that it was the 'right thing to do' since the trial 'was flawed' after Obama became president. Are you saying that now they will flip-flip, yet again, and decide they were wrong?

[whatchamacallit]

121. Yeah, cuz it's common practice to choose the victim's family members to be jurors

:eyes: Yes this place is embarrassing!

[dr.strangelove]

66. Why should anyone express remorse over something they had no control over

Would it have been better to try him and execute him for crimes against humanity like they did with Hussein, I think it would have been better. but how can I have remorse over the actions of other people.

Also, can you please give me a play by play on what happened, so I can make an informed decision as to whether or not anyone should show remorse.

My understanding is that he tried to flee and his convoy was blown up. He survived that attack but was hurt badly. He tried to hide and was caught, and died sometime later. Was he treated badly after his capture, I expect that he was, but I really don't know. I'm certainly not prepared to expect remorse from foreign leaders based on my guesses.

[Octafish]

68. It IS a lesson for the kids.

Things now run on FEAR.

[yoyossarian]

74. In what world, at what time, did things NOT run on fear?

Sounds nice, I agree... but utopias always sound nice.

[Cali_Democrat]

76. Fear and intimidation

[Mimosa]

88. Octafish, are there sites, sources, about Khaddafi's crimes against Libyans?

Especially before 2008, 2009, before he made the US/NATO hit list?

[Octafish]

105. DUer joshcryer may be the person to ask.

What I know, Khaddafi was a monster. But, mostly, when it comes to money and power, he was our monster. And that's where his real criminality shines through, from murdering political opponents to expropriating the nation's oil wealth to attacking neighboring states for profit. And for most of his rule, he did what we do and he did what we wanted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1398437.stm
BBC Libya Timeline

http://www.temehu.com/History-of-Libya.htm
History of Libya

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_63682.shtml
William Blum: Libya and the world we live in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/02/business/02libya.html
Libya Tempts Executives With Big Oil Reserves

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7528
Libya and World Oil Exports

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Oil_watch/Cheney_Halliburton.html
Cheney and Halliburton: Go Where the Oil Is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1398437.stm
Cables Expose Washington’s Close ties to Muammar Gaddafi

http://mobile.zcommunications.org/protecting-from-him-we-were-working-with-him-by-ted-snider
Protecting From Him? We Were Working With Him

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/geopolitics/Why-has-Libya-been-attacked.html
Why has Libya been attacked?

[lunatica]

70. Because Gaddafi chose to create this inevitable outcome

He could have left anytime instead of insisting on hiring mercenaries and trying to massacre Libyans.

[sabrina 1]

73. Thank you for your humanity.

Obama is busy signing new deals with one of the world's worst dictators right now. So, he's probably a bit distracted when it comes to dictators in general.

I am also sickened beyond belief. Even more by the reaction among Democrats to the brutality and violation of International Law.

It is causing me to rethink my party affiliation unless we hear some condemnation from the leadership of this party.

[BklnDem75]

78. If President Obama happens to read this thread...

I hope his response is to kick rocks.

[Mimosa]

89. We won't here any regret.

Sabrina we have 'nowhere to go' at present.

I'm assuming you saw Hillary Clinton in a video yesterday. When she was notified of Khaddafi's death she quipped "We came, we saw, he died". And then she laughed.

[Lyric]

75. Jesus Effing Christ.

What's next? Declare a national day of hand-wringing because the Italian people killed Benito Mussolini?! Oh, the poor, poor murdering tyrants didn't get trials in international court!

The melodramatic mourning of a monster like Gadhafi is just nauseating.

[Zanzoobar]

77. +1

Bang. You're dead. Let's move on.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. I haven't been so distraught since kindly old Osama Bin Laden was brutally killed

not an hour after giving a puppy to a neighborhood child. :cry:

[killbotfactory]

80. Because fuck that guy

That's why

[Throd]

85. That, my friend, is the beginning of the greatest haiku.

clap clap clap clap clap!

[Capitalocracy]

119. have you seen Red State?

If not, check it out.

[CJvR]

81. Perhaps he simply...

...didn't feel any.

Gadaffi have spent 40 years earning the treatment he got yesterday. He could have negotiated a formal surrender for months that would have kept him alive, at least long enough for a formal trial before his execution. He elected to shoot it out and ended up getting captured on the battlefield where his treatment was up to whoever caught him - always a dangerous thing. Particulary for a tyrant caught by revolutionaries with huge personel axes to grind.

[Desertrose]

83. That's why I don't watch any news on the tube....

it's all lies and designed to manipulate. Bah!! I've just had it...enough already with the lying!!!!



:loveya::hug::hi:
DR

[sendero]

86. It's idiotic positions.

...like yours that have put the final touches on the vilification of liberals in this country.

The man was a RUTHLESS BRUTAL DICTATOR who KILLED and TORTURED his people ROUTINELY.

And you are upset that that, while trying to direct his remaining military to KILL MORE CITIZENS who had expressed their simple desire for him to FUCKING LEAVE, that he got shot while doing so.

You are a fucking moron and you should take FULL CREDIT for RUINING the reputation of what liberals stand for and making it a piece of cake for the right to paint us as a pack of fools.

I apologize for the vitriolic tone of this post. But Jeezux on a fucking crutch I simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND ON ANY LEVEL where the FUCK you are coming from. FUCK THAT MURDEROUS ASSHOLE AND EVERYONE LIKE HIM and may they all meet a tragic end by any means necessary.

[apocalypsehow]

90. +1. n/t.

[killbotfactory]

94. +1

[G_j]

98. I am a fucking moron

to expect the supposed moral leader of the 'free world' to regret that a brutal execution takes place without a trial? Were you one of those cheering Perry's Texas executions at the GOP debate?


btw, I now have one person on IGNOR, you.

[DevonRex]

102. You speak for me. Nt

[Paladin]

114. Well Said. Well Said. Well Said. (n/t)

[SOS]

122. Everyone like him....

Like Obiang in Equatorial Guinea? (Exxon-Mobil)
Assad in Syria? (Royal Dutch Shell)
al Khalifah in Bahrain? (Unocal, Harken)
King Abdullah in Saudi Arabia? (Aramco, Exxon-Mobil, Shell)

All are dictators who kill and torture their people routinely.
But we won't see them dragged out and killed because US and European oil corporations make money there.

Hussein made the fatal error of keeping US oil companies out of Iraq.
Gaddafi made his fatal error in 2007 when he gave his oil nationalization speech.

The reputation of anyone who idly accepts US alliance with vicious dictators based on oil was ruined a long time ago.

[Spider Jerusalem]

93. Why didn't Harry Truman express remorse over the way Mussolini was brutalised and executed?

[Warren DeMontague]

95. He should express remorse for the cancer grannies he's having dragged off to prison for smoking pot

Qaddafi, not so much.

[kwassa]

96. Obama has no responsibility for the brutalization and execution.

and Gaddafi murdered many.

Should he have died with more calm and composure?

[ncteechur]

97. Remorse over gaddafi? nope, bastard deserved what he got.

[HappyMe]

99. When you shit on & brutalize

people for 40 years, they get a little excited.

The rebels killed him. He got as good as he gave.

[AmirDal]

101. He does not want to loose the next election, one would think.

[ButterflyBlood]

103. How sickened were you by the way Gaddafi brutalized and executed his own people?

The double standard here amongst some would be amusing if it wasn't actually rather disgusting.

[Capitalocracy]

106. You're assigning hypocrisy where there is none.

The people who want to see evil dictators put on trial want those dictators put on trial because of how disgusting and horrible their brutality is, NOT because they think it's OK when the dictator does it. It's not a "double standard", it's actually a very consistent standard for human rights (even for the worst humans) and the rule of law (even for the worst criminals). You may want to examine whether or not YOU hold a double standard in this case.

I check DU every day. I don't read every post, but I do check it every day, and I have NEVER seen a post condoning Gaddafi or anyone else responding to protests with violence (except in the U.S.) And if I had seen someone defending Gaddafi's actions, I would've been on them like flies on shit, but I never saw it happen.

I defend the rights of war criminals to be put on trial. Not only is it their right, it is society's right to have a trial conducted. A trial is where their ideology and actions are exposed, dissected, analyzed, and thoroughly deligitamized. Trials are always the best option.

Now, I don't know the full story behind Gaddafi's death. I haven't even bothered reading up on it much. I heard some reports we hit him with a drone, others that we didn't. Whatever. I would've liked to see the mob of people who captured him put him on trial, but I certainly can't claim to be surprised that they didn't in the heat of the moment and given the fact that they haven't had a functional justice system in decades and probably have no idea what one looks like, so I'm not even viewing this in the same light as, for example, our troops possibly having the opportunity to capture OBL and executing him instead. But trials are ALWAYS preferable, not just to respect the rights of these horrible criminals, but to make sure we as a society are not like them, and to thoroughly discredit them instead of turning them into martyrs.

[ButterflyBlood]

112. Wishing Gaddafi had a trial and expressing remorse over his death are quite different

The OP is acting like they wish Obama would issue some formal message of condolences like he would if the leader of a friendly country had died.

[G_j]

113. it is a a relief

To read an intelligent response by someone who gets it.

[AmandaMae]

104. I don't agree with celebrating anyone's death, not even someone like Gaddafi.

I don't like the new style of warfare we're engaging in, either- assassinating enemies without even considering putting them on trial instead. First Bin laden, then al-Awlaki.. I don't know, I think it sets a dangerous precedent. I was disturbed by the constant replaying of the graphic footage, too. I wouldn't go so far to say that Obama should 'express remorse' though.

[ThoughtCriminal]

109. This is one of those times

when I wish I could see the unrec count.

[Cattledog]

110. Payback's a bitch.

[Rex]

116. He had OBLs body dumped in the ocean to feed the fish.

Why would he cry over some old dictator getting his 'comeuppance'? The world has always been a lynch mob and executions. AMERICANS CHEERED (well the scumbags did) at Rick Perry's execution record in Texas! Where have you been?

This is how it has always been.

[TheKentuckian]

117. Could have but isn't particularly obligated to. The moral leadership would be nice

but then he doesn't have much space to call on others to commit to the rule of law and/or our "better angels" in such circumstances.

[countryjake]

120. I suspect that there was a collective sigh of relief in Washington...

knowing that another man with too much to reveal on the dirty dealings of our national machinations had finally been eliminated. The possibility of Qaddafi's appearance on trial at the Hague, or elsewhere, most likely had many of our government officials (both present and former) tossing in their sleep throughout the last few weeks, as the siege of Sirte drew to a bloody close.

After our Sec. of State's surprise mission this week, (only a matter of hours before the "finale", mind you), when, like an emperor of old, she gave the "thumbs down" to the most wanted man in Libya, I really couldn't expect anything else but that smug jubilation we've seen in consequent press frenzies on the matter.

[zappaman]

123. I wish I could unrec 1000 times

What a sad, inane, misguided, unrealistic, sickening OP.
:cry: some more

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snagglepuss]

126. I hope you are also appalled that civilians have been killed by drones that Obama authorized?

[Kaleva]

128. Probably because President Obama didn't feel any remorse over the way Gaddafi died.

[whatchamacallit]

129. I agree with the hawks that this is a silly notion

Not on moral or ethical grounds, but because it's obvious that if Obama shows no remorse for the innocent victims of our foreign policy, there's not a snowball's chance in hell he'll show it for a low-life despot. Just sayin...