It Was Gaddafi Who Decided Whether He Would Have A Trial Or Not

[Solomon]

You have to ask for a jury trial in order to get one.

It was his right, and not yours, to demand a trial. Muburak did. Gaddafi did not.

[leftstreet]

1. What was he charged with?

[Solomon]

6. He was wanted for arrest by his own people.

He could have answered but he chose to fight instead. That's all there is to it. If a suspected murderer here in America chose to fight it out with police instead of turning himself in, nobody here would be crying about how he didn't get a trial. Far from it.

[leftstreet]

30. Bush and Cheney are wanted for arrest by some people. Hope they remember to ask for a trial

Although Dick could probably hold his own in a gun fight

[Harmony Blue]

2. Non U.S. media confirms

that he was begging for his life and he was still shot.

[dtexdem]

3. He reaped what he sowed.

And, yes, it was brutal. The issue is that the longer a tyrant holds to power despite a popular movement to oust him/her, the more brutal the opposition is likely to grow. Gaddafi guaranteed that the opposition became very brutal indeed, and he got what he deserved from it.

[polly7]

4. And what about the movement of his supporters literally filling the streets before

the first NATO bombings?

How do you, or anyone else really know what the majority of Libyan people wanted, when all that was shown was footage of the NATO backed rebels?

[tabatha]

10. The majority of Libyans wanted Gaddafi gone.

Every town, up until Sirte and Bani Walid, was handed over peacefully by consultation with the local council, elders and the NTC.

The only resistance was Sirte and Bani Walid - and that was ONLY because there were Gaddafis in both towns.

The people in Bani Walid wanted to hand it over to the TNC, but the Gaddafi sons would not allow it.

NOT ONE civilian died in Bani Walid, because all civilians were evacuated because of the consultation between the NTC and the elders of Bani Walid. That is, the NTC had multiple ceasefires to allow the civilians to leave.

Sirte is a mess because Gaddafi was there and refused to surrender.

[polly7]

11. Really, do you have a link that shows that as fact?

I saw video where people flooded the streets supporting him in February. Compared to a relatively small group of rebels.

Are you saying that 'anyone' who supported him would have fought the rebels?? That makes no sense, and doesn't represent the numbers in any way at all.

[tabatha]

17. Yes, there are plenty of facts to support that.

They have been constantly reported on the Libyan threads.

Do you know that there were NO spontaneous rallies supporting Gaddafi - they were all forced to go to them under threats to their families. Several families found their dead sons on their doorsteps because they did not attend the rallies. And in the rally where they claimed millions of people, both satellite and media organizations reported that it was not more than 15,000 (many bussed in under force by Gaddafi).

As for rebel support, you are sadly misinformed, as this video will demonstrate.
http://youtu.be/z41kQvx4uKw

Just about every family in Libya has had one or more family member harmed by Gaddafi.

[polly7]

29. To support what, that he didn't have supporters?

How would you know? All that was posted in your Libyan threads were articles and tweets supporting the rebels.

'Several families' ........ 'just about every family' - how would you know this?.

You have no idea how many people supported him and how many didn't ....... because those who did were never heard. I just hope the brutality with which he was executed isn't carried over towards all those who may have, and did support him.

Yes, there were many supporters in the streets before the NATO bombing started. I tend to think most of them probably didn't rush out to rally once it all got going. Really, do you think they would?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hlOhymEY7c&feature=player_embedded#!

[tabatha]

35. Then you did not read the threads.

Both negative and positive articles were posted.

"Just about every family..." Libyans on the AJE thread have said so; Jibril has stated this. Unfortunately, I do not keep a link to every statement that describes every facet of Libyan life.

I have a very good idea of how many supported him - once again from Libyans on the AJE blog and statements from a variety of Libyans from different sources. The fact that the only two places that resisted the FF were BW and Sirte, speaks volumes to that fact. And they resisted only because the Gaddafis were there.

"Yes, there were many supporters in the streets before the NATO bombing started. I tend to think most of them probably didn't rush out to rally once it all got going. Really, do you think they would?"

I do not get my information from propaganda videos - I get it from the Libyan people directly. I know that they are extremely thankful that NATO helped them, because they asked, begged for the help.

[polly7]

36. So they must have taken polls?

Did they go house to house?

LOL that 'propaganda' video is made of screenshots from video taken by Libyan people as well as many, many news articles. Exactly the same types of sources you posted in your own threads. Supporters videos and news articles that contradict the constant pro-NATO-rebel coverage are propaganda ...... but of course. Isn't that how it was supposed to work?

[Iterate]

42. You're a little late to the game

I've followed the topic of Gaddafi demographics and popularity more closely than most, or maybe even closer than anyone on the site.

One poll was taken in the east in April, and a second one planned but not complete. I have the original study somewhere here, but I don't know if it's been translated. This was a media report of the study:
http://english.libya.tv/2011/04/25/eastern-libyans-believe-in-national-unity-distrust-au-and-turkish-mediation-survey-reveals/

There are plenty of other ways to gauge support, the worst of which is a youtube clip that begins with dramatic music. If you want a dozen more of those, I have links.

With the best estimates that I can gather, I'd place pro-Gaddafi support in single digits nationwide. It's more accurate to go city-by-city, where it's nearly zero in places like Zintan, Yefren, or Derna, or in the 20-30% range like Bani-Walid or Ajaylat.

There appeared to be only about five cities with any serious support, and only in Sirte would I say that it was a majority. Even in Sirte though, Gaddafi security forces spent the time and energy in late May to go house-by-house removing all satellite dishes so that residents could only receive controlled information.

ETA:
Measuring Public Opinion under Political Repression
http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2011/0104/comm/horne_measuring.html

[polly7]

43. I've followed it too. That makes me about as much an expert as you.

Why does dramatic music added to the same video and media reports as those posted here for months frighten you?

Here is an account by a reporter who was actually in Libya, unlike you and I. She describes the lies and purposefully slanted media coverage my first link did.

Testimony of Libya - Lizzy Phelan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RFvpfkUyBqE#!

[Iterate]

44. I was alluding to a more rigorous approach

based on first person Libyan reports, details, and personal effort. That in itself would be nearly worthless unless grounded in the basics of history and the social sciences. Speaking Arabic or having access to a human translator helps. Time spent in Libya is a definite plus, but not if it's spent at the Rixos and on government sponsored tours.

If your standard is Lizzie Phelan, there is no more to be gained here for either of us.

I should say though that my favorite video of her was on a panel with two Libyans, one blogger and one head of an NGO, both of whom were struggling to be polite with this reporter-cum-revolutionary wannabe who had arrived on the Libyan scene only months before, but was busily expounding on life in Libya and the nature of their revolution. They kept cool, but just barely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. A war crime is one even if the

Victim is in the less than popular kid in the playground club. You justify or rationalize this at your peril. As I said yesterday things like protection of POW's captured in the field, or courts of law are, or shoud, be all but quaint. This slippery slope has a way of comming home.

[tabatha]

7. Gaddafi died from a wound on his intestine

on Euronews they are reporting that Gaddafi died from a wound on his intestine , so he was shot in the stomach which is a slow and painfull death...

He died in the ambulance on the way to Misrata.

[polly7]

8. And the gunshot wound to the left temple?? n/t.

[tabatha]

12. I am just reporting what was posted elsewhere.

Gaddafi's burial has been delayed beyond the required traditional 24 hours so that he body can be examined by various people.

[EFerrari]

16. Why don't you watch the videos yourself.

He was beaten, dragged and shot multiple times. He did not die in an ambulance.

[tabatha]

18. I have watched the videos.

I did not see anyone shooting him multiple times.

If you did, please provide the link to the video.

[EFerrari]

28. I'm going to post exactly 1 (one) link and this isn't even the worst one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXMo8FKFqV4&skipcontrinter=1

There are like five of them and I'm sure that you have the skills to find them for yourself.

[tabatha]

34. He is already dead.

I have not seen any videos of shooters shooting Gaddafi.
Therefore, I cannot conclude who shot him and under what circumstances.

(I had already seen that particular video.)

[EFerrari]

37. So he couldn't have died in an ambulance on the way any where

if he was already dead in Sirte.

And that video clearly shows gun shot wounds.

I think I'm done in this sub thread.

[Bake]

38. How many of his victims begged for THEIR lives?

I think that's a relevant question.

Bake

[hifiguy]

5. I cannot see this as any different from

the Italian partisans executing Mussolini or the Romanians executing the Ceaucescus. I wasn't around for the Duce's end but remember the Romanian revolution vividly. I didn't feel any pangs of remorse over the demise of the Ceaucescus by firing squad and can't get worked up one way or the other over Qaddaffi.

He could have bugged out months ago but chose to stay and impose more misery on the rest of Libya. What to do with him was a Libyan issue to be settled by Libyans. None of our or my business.

[Evergreen Emerald]

40. so, we can agree that they hated him because of his brutality...what makes them different?

They hated him for his brutality and yet, acted just like he did. "No mercy" The main reason we and NATO assisted the rebels was because of the way he treated his people. And in the end, they stooped to acting just like him.

What makes him "brutal" and them "right?"

I have no tears for the evil doer. But, when I saw the video of him dying as they brutalized him, I was saddened.

[L. Coyote]

45. The Spanish leveling Mexico and imposing a European government?

Oh wait, this time it is France :rofl:

[Romulox]

9. Does the "big tent" now house advocates of summary execution?

I guess it's "divisive" of me to ask?

[Fumesucker]

13. That tent is so big we'd need the Hubble Space Telescope to see the other side of it..

And it seems to get bigger all the time.

I for one think the Nuremberg trials did Germany some long term good and would have done even more good if der Fuhrer had also been there in the docket.

[Bragi]

20. Nuremberg was just and strengthened the rule of law

Alternately, a mob brutally kicking someone to death degrades everyone. This horrific act needs to be condemned, not dismissed, or even worse, rationalized.

[Poll_Blind]

15. The tent hasn't gotten bigger, it's just been moved to the Right.

Certain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials">antiquated notions and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention">hollow ideals have been judged by the Modern Democrat™ and apparently been found wanting.

Of course we have little control over some actions- yet always retain the ability to judge them with our opinion. And with support or nonsupport of an act, judge ourselves.

PB

[Bragi]

22. Well said /nt

[whatchamacallit]

39. +1 n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Oh shush war crimes are not questioned as long as the victim

Is in the non popular kids club.

[tabatha]

27. The NTC wanted him alive.

Please do not do what the right wing does - blame everyone for the actions of the few.

How can you possibly define the policies of the US on the actions of some adrenaline-charged people fighting on the ground.

[EFerrari]

14. U.N. and activists urge inquiry into Gaddafi death

GENEVA (Reuters) - The United Nations and human rights groups called on Friday for a full investigation into the death of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and voiced concerns that he may have been executed, a war crime under international law.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-n-activists-urge-inquiry-gaddafi-death-170941400.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I stand with the UN on this

[tabatha]

24. I absolutely agree there should be an inquiry.

There have been too many hypotheticals and false charges about his death.

The facts are required.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And if there is a crime, for the sake of Lybia. It needs to be prosecuted

[Lucinda]

23. How do you know what he did or did not ask for when captured? n/t

[sibelian]

41. +1 absolutely agree.

OP seeks peace of mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. A war crime is not less of one

When the victim is in the less than popular kids in the playground club.

If he was summarily executed it is just as much of one as him ordering rapes and torture.

I guess this is WAY TOO COMPLEX.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Should Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld demand to be arrested and ask for a fair trial?

Is it their fault if they don't get one?

[Hutzpa]

33. Well he said over his dead body

"I will die as a martyr at the end," he said. "I have not yet ordered the use
of force, not yet ordered one bullet to be fired ... when I do, everything will burn."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41713482/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/gadhafi-vows-die-martyr-libya/

[pampango]

46. After 40 years of getting what you want without question, it's probably hard for dictators to

remember the days when they lived with the understanding that other people have power and different opinions at times. That world was a long time ago for someone with absolute power for as long as he had it.

[crazyjoe]

47. I am amazed at the support on DU for the violent murder of Gaddafi.

Who would the supporters of this like to see murdered in the streets here in the US? Or are we too civilized for such a thing here, but who cares what they do in Libya? They're just a third world country.