If globalization is so great, for example, NAFTA/CAFTA, why is our country so

[RKP5637]

screwed up? It seems to me we were doing far better before all of the globalization was touted as the solution. I have no difficulty with global trade, but it seems the way it's implemented it just continues to screw the workers of America.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Because we have had the exact wrong answer

As workers...

They want cheap labor...what do you think would happen if a continent wide union was formed with union wages? That cheap labor would be gone.

Don't worry have had this conversation in Spanish in Mexico city and it is odd how workers are still having trouble connecting that essential dot.

[RKP5637]

11. Yep, that is what's really needed IMO too is a continent wide union with union wages. Many in

all countries are really getting screwed except as others have mentioned, the 1% or so. Workers of the world need to unite big time.

[closeupready]

2. They lied to us, that's why.

nt

[RKP5637]

15. And they lie over and over again. Just how much more are Americans going to

take. I'm so glad we have OWS responding to the BS in this country ... and others around the world too. The people are getting F'ed over in many countries by the commonality of the top few percent across countries. We have global suppression of the workers going on.

[truedelphi]

34. They lie to us continually. Look at the great and wondrous

Obama and his Jobs Bill, which he knows is not going to go through.

But he is going around the nation, talking it up, and that captures the headlines. Meanwhile the fact is that three trade agreements were approved, and that those agreements will hurt Americans is not mentioned.

We don't need trade agreements. We need to look into the way the nation used to use tariffs.

But of course, re-instituting a decent way to put tariffs in place would not allow our corporations to set up corporations in foreign lands and exploit the poor people there.

[azurnoir]

3. well it has been great ......

for India

[Uncle Joe]

4. We weren't doing so great before.

The U.S. started losing its' dominant economic position on the world stage from the 70s oil shock on and this accelerated under Reagan's temporary illusory policies of credit and deregulation combined with increasing numbers of two wage earners to hide the erosion.

The Industrialized World; had largely rebuilt itself after the devastation of WWII and it was becoming increasingly competitive, the Asian Tiger nations and China started coming along as well.

I don't believe all free trade pacts to be a good thing in and of themselves, each have distinctive pros and cons depending on the treaty and the nation, I do believe NAFTA was a logical move but it could have been better had several dynamics played out differently.

The "screwed up" part is the natural descent from the U.S. being in such a dominating world economic position for a quarter of a century after WWII, Americans; even the middle class were truly wealthy compared to the vast majority of humanity, to some extent this is still true but not near to the point that it was.

Thanks for the thread, RKP.

[CanSocDem]

7. When Canada signed up....

...many of us were afraid the corporate culture of the USA would do serious damage to our public institutions as well as our standard of living.

"I don't believe all free trade pacts to be a good thing in and of themselves, each have distinctive pros and cons depending on the treaty and the nation, I do believe NAFTA was a logical move but it could have been better had several dynamics played out differently."

I agree. At the time I was hauling truckload commodities back and forth across the Can/USA border and we were promised less bureaucratic interference. It didn't happen; it only got worse.

As a case in point.

[polly7]

14. This sort of thing is what scares the hell out of me

http://cupe.ca/privwatchsep08/Protection-of-Canada

Protect health care from NAFTA
SEP 18, 2008 09:34 AM

Ottawa, ON – Today, the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) called on Canada’s political leaders to include protection of not-for-profit health care in their platform to support families.

“Our health care system is under attack from creeping privatization, thanks to actions by some provincial governments and neglect by the federal government,” said Paul Moist, national president of CUPE. “Further, the federal government has been ignoring concerns that NAFTA investment rules put the Canadian health care system at risk. Now, these concerns are becoming substantiated in a law suit filed recently by an American investor.”

http://www.canadianmedicinenews.com/2008/09/canadas-healthcare-protectionism.html

[RKP5637]

16. I would hate to see Canada even approach the mess the US is in for health care. n/t

[RKP5637]

13. Interesting reply! Thanks!!! n/t

[RegieRocker]

5. It's great for the......

1%. Can't believe you didn't know this already.

[RKP5637]

8. Yep, I already knew that, but I was curious what the comments would be as

to how DU felt. Reply #4 from Uncle Joe was pretty interesting.

[snagglepuss]

6. You assumed everyone has been screwed. NAFTA/CAFTA hasn't screwed the 1%

in fact they have wildly benefitted from Free Trade.

[RKP5637]

9. I often wonder how we will dig out of this. None of TPTB IMO seem very interested

in changes ...

[Earth_First]

10. Why change what WORKS...

for THEM?!

:sarcasm:

[RKP5637]

12. Yeah, so true and sad, isn't it. I'm so tired of being F'ed over and told it's

great.

[pampango]

17. Globalization works fine for progressive countries that take care of their citizens.

In progressive countries where there are strong unions, effective national health care, high/progressive taxes, corporate/financial regulations and a strong safety net, they are quite open to each other and the rest of the world. They have more "NAFTA/CAFTA" (or their equivalents) than we do.

In the US beginning in the 1980's we have weakened unions, had no real health care system, cut taxes for the rich and made taxes more regressive overall, deregulated corporations and the financial industry and slashed the social safety net.

All those are things that progressive countries do not do, which is why their workers are not screwed like ours are.

If a country lets conservatives screw it up bad enough, no amount of global trade (which progressive countries embrace) will rescue you from the hell they have created.

[RKP5637]

18. Thanks! This makes a lot of sense. What always comes to my mind is how

do we recover the country, and will we ever recover, at least in my lifetime. The agenda to screw most of the citizens in this country runs far and wide.

I guess Germany would be a good example of a country that maintains a balance between unions and companies?

What we have here is getting to be a dystopia and already is for many IMO, I don't see what changes are coming. I know, of course, OWS is trying, but I have a feeling TPTB will stomp out OWS if it becomes too successful. TPTB certainly don't want the masses stirred up thinking there should be fairness in the system and really challenging TPTB.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Ironic momemt. The balance in Germany was put in place by us

During the occupation.

[RKP5637]

20. I posted this video earlier today, don't know if you saw it or not, but

he did a pretty good job IMO of summarizing a lot of the outright crap going on in the US.

"The psychological death of the west - Chris Hedges full speech"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x627221

[Romulox]

22. But not here in the US. nt

[Romulox]

21. Al Gore was wrong, period. nt

[Donnachaidh]

23. How about retroactively charging these corporations that sell goods here for road use?

While an argument can be made that we all need to pay for infrastructure repairs -- the largest users of the infrastructures are corporations. And those corporations who don't feel they need to keep paying living wages here in the states should be triple charged for road usage, and charged tariffs to bring those goods back into the states.

They certainly haven't lowered the price of the goods they expect us to buy. Yet they have increased their profit margins with slave labor, enabled by NAFTA.

If they want to play like assholes -- let them start paying for access to the US customers.

[RKP5637]

24. Excellent idea. How would this even get enacted in our corporate bought and

bribed government. Some days I think not until the entire place crashes will things get better, but that certainly has no assurances.

[Donnachaidh]

29. that I don't know -- but I have hope after reading the OWS paper circulating

We're certainly going to get lots of whining about *well nafta allowed us to go overseas* -- but when they close up EVERYTHING here, and then import things back, at the SAME prices or higher, while their costs go down -- there has to be some giveback. And the amount should not be up to them.

I honestly think we're going to have to clean house to get anything of substance for the middle class. We've been shit on for so long -- I have no patience or mercy for the companies that have been working with treacherous groups like Alec or the Koch Brothers or Rove's band of traitors.

A road use tax would be easily implemented, because these companies track the movement of their goods. Hit them with a use tax, along with an import tax to start. And use that money to fix infrastructure, and give free re-training to Americans. If enough is left over, use it to re-start the factories, and retro-fit them for production of wind and solar products.

[RKP5637]

32. We always have to remember "we" are the majority. What is key is somehow to

get the majority of citizens to realize we have more in common than different and to somehow stop them from using wedge issues to divide the country. That's what I like about OWS, it cuts across the differences.

[Dragonfli]

25. Globalization and free trade are great because Obama and The US Chamber of Commerce says so

If you disagree, you are a liberal racist, right wing talking point using, troll, or didn't you get that memo yet?

[RKP5637]

27. Oops, I gotta start reading those memos!!! n/t

[jwirr]

26. I think it is because when we take the measure of how we are doing

it is a measure of how the rich and their stock market are doing. It does not measure the trickle down part.

[RKP5637]

28. Yeah, especially with outfits like CNBC, we're doing just great if markets are up... Trickle

down, the monied could care less how the peasants are doing.

[Motown_Johnny]

30. Free Trade has failed, but it is to big to fail...... and we know where that leads.

[MrSlayer]

31. It isn't supposed to be great for us.

It's great for the multi-nationals and their greedy leaders and shareholders. And we're supposed to cheer on their success. Did you not get that memo?

[RKP5637]

33. Yep, I get a lot of memos like that, but guess I must be a rebellious slow learner... n/t