"Perhaps the greatest propaganda trick I have seen in my lifetime"

[polly7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RFvpfkUyBqE#!

Testimony of Libya - Lizzy Phelan

[joshcryer]

1. Lizzy Phelan, Eyewitnesses dismiss rebel advances on Tripoli as misinformation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27TjUb8n6jo

Not credible.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

3. Works for RT, was a major "pretty face" propagandist for Gaddafi's side.

There are about a half dozen "personalities" who have been propagandists the entire time, some of them have confirmed mental disorders, others just seem to be true believers.

The pay was good in any event.

It's actually quite hilarious that her video is posted here as truth when she's a liar.

[polly7]

20. Someone else that obviously works for RT - hey, I saw the logo on the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FluFKTiAhzw&feature=related

[joshcryer]

59. "Whether Libyan's can now gain some independence despite that NATO backing remains to be seen."

Who can disagree with that?

BTW, difference between a free lance reporter and someone being interviewed by a reporter.

[polly7]

66. Ya don't say ... but make up your mind, is RT the demon of all propaganda outlets, or not??

It's getting hard to keep up.

I have quite a bit of faith in a free lance reporter who was actually in Libya.

[joshcryer]

74. I'm pretty sure I am only calling Lizzy a liar.

I can only be critical of RT on a case by case basis.

[polly7]

78. Yeah whatever. n/t.

[polly7]

11. Lizzy 'bitch'? Did a woman step on your toes today? n/t.

[DCBob]

13. fits her nicely.

[polly7]

21. You sound threatened. n/t.

[DCBob]

23. you sound confused.

[polly7]

24. No, not at all. Just a little surprised at the horror expressed here when

differing opinions by one reporter, who was actually in Libya, are posted.

[DCBob]

25. cant you see fact from fiction??

[polly7]

Absolutely. And thanks for making it easier. n/t.

[DCBob]

42. you are most welcome.

have a :donut:

[joshcryer]

40. The only "horror" expressed is akin to one being annoyed by climate change denialists...

...or creationists / intelligent designers requiring "equal standing" in a debate. Once someone is shown to be a proven liar, as I have done, they should no longer deserve any respect by those individuals who read it. The wigglying around and dodging doesn't change that.

[polly7]

47. You've shown no such thing.

Your version of reality isn't everyone's .... no matter how hard you peddle it. Thank God for the internet and many sources.

[joshcryer]

52. She lied that Tripoli wasn't falling. She made it up. It's all there for the world to see.

Turn your blinders on and believe untruths if you want. It has no bearing on anything significant.

[AmirDal]

110. When we speak of lies we need to focus on the present or former regimes which do so liberally.

She is an established reporter, who like any, makes mistakes.

[sabrina 1]

96. 'Bitch'?? She is a highly respected journalist who actually witnessed

the NATO war on Libya. Everything she said in that report has now been confirmed by many other credible organizations to the point where there are demands now for investigations, a bit late considering how many innocents have died, into the lies that were told to topple the government which was NOT a part of the UN Resolution.

If you want to contradict anything she says please state what it is. I am certain if you are right, people will agree with you, and if not, they disagree. As a woman btw it is offensive to see a professional woman giving a report on the time she spent AS a professional in a war zone, referred to as a bitch. Especially on a progressive board like this.

[polly7]

4. She sounds pretty credible to me, information that I've seen in many

articles. I appreciate hearing both sides, I gather you don't.

[joshcryer]

5. I absolutely adore hearing that side, I really do. Tripoli fell the same day she reported that.

Nothing she says is truthful, that's for damn sure, but it's still hilarious to watch and observe and dissect. The entire Gaddafi Green Squad on YouTube is a delight.

[polly7]

7. How do you know she's not truthful??

I've seen articles stating exactly what she is saying here. Were you there watching?

[joshcryer]

8. Because it didn't happen that way? Because Tripoli fell the same day?

Wow.

[Ikonoklast]

26. Because reality is vastly different from what she stated she 'winessed'.

That is called "Lying".

Phelan is a paid propagandist, and a liar. Nothing she says is even remotely credible.

[wtmusic]

28. You argue your case with a lot of vehemence and no evidence.

Certainly you can understand why that may raise suspicions.

[joshcryer]

39. I provided all the evidence that is necessary, she's a chronic lying propagandist.

[wtmusic]

45. You provided one video that doesn't support one side or the other

and histrionics always make me suspicious...I can't help it.

[joshcryer]

50. The video I provided discredits her as a truthful individual.

The "report" she gives in the video ends with her crying because she was stuck in the Rixos, she doesn't mention that it was Gaddafi's men who wouldn't let her leave. It's just hilarious beyond the pale.

If you would like links to the fall of Tripoli please click my journal and go back to the August 18-24 postings.

You are free to believe who you want and pretend this womens credibility is not in doubt.

[wtmusic]

58. No, actually it does not.

Do you have a link to your contention that it was Ghadaffi's men who wouldn't let her leave, and why that discredits her? Is it possible it was for her own safety?

Though your August 18-24 postings are not available, your journal has a very one-sided cant to it - no conflict is that black-and-white.

I believe her side has a similar cant to it, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[joshcryer]

61. My journal does not have a very one-slided slant, every "bad" report that the fascists...

...have insisted on posting repeatedly has been reported there, only at the frequency which with the events happened. You of all people should know what it's like to have small events be reposted over and over again as big events. I know you from E&E and I would think that you would appreciate this exact tactic as used by the denialists when it comes to climate change.

[wtmusic]

65. Frankly I don't know enough about the issue

You've obviously followed it closely and I have a lot of respect for your opinion, so I need to read your journal.

I suppose it's possible she's reading a script and is being paid huge sums of money to do it, but right now I don't believe that either...I believe that is her real POV.

[joshcryer]

68. I believe she believes it.

I do not believe she is being paid more than she gets as a free lancer for RT (I think she gets paid for that but how much I don't know. It's not like I think Gaddafi is raining gold necklaces down on her.

The fact is though even if she believes what she's saying that doesn't mean she's truthful. If she came out and said "well I was in Rixos and we were being fed bad information" that'd be one thing, but she made up those lies and then went on to be a mouthpiece at whatever review she was speaking at, it's really just disgusting how she could do that.

As far as all of her points I assure you they have been debunked repeatedly in my thread and by me on numerous occassions, if you need a specific point to be debunked I might be able to do that, but I'm not going to debunk every single one.

BTW, if I'm coming off as hysterical, sorry, it's been a long ride, and it's clearly the last vestiges of the Gaddafi supporters trying to shoot their load one last time.

Clay Claiborne has done a much more coherent debunking of most of these lies: http://www.dailykos.com/blog/Clay%20Claiborne

[wtmusic]

71. I'll read that too, thx. nt

[wtmusic]

82. There's a strong Saddam element to Ghaddafi

He was by most accounts a brutal dictator, but it seems those who played by his rules could piece together a decent life in Libya.

Whether what follows will be better or worse is a big question mark. Seeing video of Libyan "freedom fighters" kicking him to death in the hot sun doesn't fill me with hope.

[joshcryer]

88. Yep, if you played by the rules, you did OK. But you did OK under Mubarak and Ben Ali, too.

If you played by the rules. Hell, even Gaddafi did rendition like Mubarak, he was a great friend of the west in that vein.

Eventually though the rules are seen as immoral and people decide they need to be changed (see: Arab Spring).

[sabrina 1]

128. She is correct totally about what happened in Tripoli. You forget

you are not the only who was watching this. The rebels claimed to have captured Said, eg, talking about lying. Instead, he was seen in the streets surrounded by thousands of people obviously loyal to Gadaffi. Her point was NOT that Tripoli did not fall to NATO bombing, it was that a majority of Libyans supported Gaddafi in Tripoli and there are many, many more people, including Americans who worked there, among others, who verify her claims, the only people I can find to verify YOURS are the same ones who lied about the Iraq War. This is a crime. I will always regret my initial support for it. And my acceptance of western imperial lies about the country as a whole.

[DCBob]

6. She's a very good liar..

and I guess her cutesy look help her be more believable to some.

[AmirDal]

9. What is the motivation for lying versus other motivation persons motivations for not reporting

[joshcryer]

12. They did report the "green flag protest" with Saif. CNN was all over it. We covered it extensively.

She's a fucking chronic liar. She's saying that "NATO attacked anything that moved and piles of bodies lined the streets." NATO did just over a dozen strikes on Tripoli when it was taken over. That's it.

Bani Waled surrendered non-violently.

This is goddamn hilarious. She's a known liar, nothing she says is credible.

[polly7]

22. And who is 'we'? Some group of reporters in Libya? n/t.

[joshcryer]

38. The posters who have compiled Libya news from the beginning.

And who know a liar when they see one.

[polly7]

43. There are many posters here who have been following this from the

beginning, including myself. I don't see her as a liar. She was there, I wasn't.

So many lies have already been debunked. A lot of the earlier ones are illustrated here in this video clip. (I know you say it's 'propaganda' because of the scary music, but it's just a compilation of video clips and news articles - the same sort of thing you've been using for months).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hlOhymEY7c&feature=player_embedded#!

[joshcryer]

44. I find it infinitely amusing how your title is "propaganda tricks" and that's all you do, post...

...propaganda.

I debunked all of these lying, disingenuous articles months and months ago. They are repeatedly posted because people have some sort of chronic need to "prove" that the Libyan people are stupid, ignorant, shills, fascists, islamists, rapists, and so on. It's hilarious beyond anything I have ever experience in my life.

But I know the truth.

And I don't have to resort to proven liars to defend my position.

[polly7]

49. That was a quote from her ...... in the video. You should pay more

attention to things you're saying you've debunked.

[joshcryer]

51. I know it was a quote from her, apparently you agree with her quote, because you think...

...it merits discussion. It doesn't. She, the RT crew, and the rest of the Green Squad on YouTube are chronic liars. They make shit up. And you fell for it. Good job.

[polly7]

56. Of course it merits discussion. I hate censorship, especially when

we all know of the disinformation with Iraq. Nah, I don't believe she made anything up. There are too many articles out that verify her account. What's all this 'you', 'you' shit? Can't you debate something without the personal attacks?

[joshcryer]

57. Care to post some of those "articles" that "verify her account"?

I highly doubt you'll do it, or if you do it'll be ignorance not knowing that this entire "history" originates in a propaganda outlet for Gaddafi.

[DCBob]

14. $$$$

[joshcryer]

15. Mahdi Nazemroaya is only slightly better:

Hilariousness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMdArruZjA

"Massive atrocious criminal bombings" = 18 strikes August 21.

[tabatha]

16. Have you met Lenore?

Lizzy Phelan along with Mathaba and Lenore are complete jokes, and thoroughly discredited on AJE blogs.

[joshcryer]

54. The best thing about Lenore was how those other two American's used her name for NGOs to steal...

...millions, it was amazing how easily fooled these idiots are.

[sabrina 1]

72. Amnesty Int. is a lying propagandist also?

World human rights groups are trying to get numbers on the civilians killed by NATO and their crew on the ground, which they estimate to be in the thousands. I guess they are liars also.

[joshcryer]

75. I've never contested what Amnesty has said, so I'm not sure where that comment comes from.

[sabrina 1]

98. You are denying what the journalist in the video has reported

Human Rights Organizations have reported much of the same facts, including the bodies and the untold numbers of people who were Gadaffi supporters, including children, who were murdered. If you do not believe her, then you are calling those organizations liars also.

[sabrina 1]

69. She is credible, don't waste your time Polly, I have wasted far

too much trying to present facts, and her reporting was backed up by many other credible sources on Libya. When someone is as committed to defending the latest PNAC Imperial war as a minority of people in the Western NATO countries are, it is pointless, I have discovered, to try to reason with them.

[joshcryer]

76. You and Lizzy the liar make good company.

[polly7]

83. What the hell is wrong with you?

Why are you SO vicious towards anyone even mentioning something other than what you've posted on all of this?

[joshcryer]

91. You have no idea what I've had to put up with...

...and how much effort I have spent checking and rechecking my sources and making sure the narrative wasn't made up lies.

And then it's just repeated again, one last time, I guess as a sort of smack in the face.

[polly7]

92. Oh get over yourself.

Posting a video you don't agree with is a smack in the face??

God.

If that's all it takes to bring out such nastiness maybe you should just not read things you haven't posted yourself.

[joshcryer]

94. Has nothing to do with whether I "agree" with it, it's about a lying propagandist being touted...

...yet again on my beloved DU by people who can't fact check themselves.

[polly7]

121. The problem with this is ............ it's false.

Her account has been verified by Human Rights Organizations, as sabrina has pointed out to you time after time.

[polly7]

77. Sabrina!

Thank you! Sheesh ........ if I'd known posting a simple video was going to bring out all this nastiness I wouldn't have done it. As you're one of the posters whose opinion here I value most of all ..... I am satisfied she is credible. When she cried, my heart hurt for her. I can't imagine being in her situation and seeing the carnage, remembering the beauty and calm just days earlier. She sounds traumatized just remembering. Sad.

[joshcryer]

81. You'd be calm too if you were in a 5 star Rixos Hotel for 6 months while the rest of Libya was...

...under siege by Gaddafi.

But Tripoli was peaceful by the end of that week. Instead of sticking around she left very quickly, if she'd stayed for another week she'd be able to see how beautiful Tripoli really is now that it's rid of Gaddafi!




Women gathered at Liberation Square to celebrate the death of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.

[sabrina 1]

99. I'm sorry your thread was hijacked, Polly, but no surprise to see

the desperate attempt to stifle the truth by the usual suspects. She is a highly respected British journalist, and everything she says in that video has since been backed up by many other very credible sources, mostly Human Rights organizations.

It's a shame to see the attempts here on a democratic board to try to prevent anyone from hearing from sources that were actually on the ground, and not beholden to the US Corporate/MIC Media.

I am glad there are going to be investigations into what happened regarding Libya, the NATO invasion and regime change which was not part of the UN Resolution at all.

The person who hi-jacked your thread is known for his insults and attacks on people who refuse to be bullied into agreeing with him, so pay no attention to him.

This war is a tragedy, another one and if she is correct, and many believe she is, there will be more. The Western powers are in deep financial trouble, especially Europe, and I heard Max Kaiser say yesterday, that whenever they got into a financial mess like this in the past, they started Wars. He gave examples, but I'm too tired to remember them all now.

We can only hope that the People of the World who are now joining together against them and their Imperial wars will be strong enough to be able to prevent any more of them.

Btw, thank you for posting this video. I hope she is called as a witness if they ever put these criminals on trial.

[polly7]

101. It really is a tragedy.

And I think we're going to be shocked and disgusted as more and more information comes out.

Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.

A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.

[sabrina 1]

102. Prime Minister. The CIA asset they mean. Who elected him

to be PM? The WEST chose their new PM. Lies, yes, and we probably don't a fraction of them so far. At least though, people are not buying this one, even less than they bought the Iraq War. Except for a few. Looking at the Utube comments, people generally supported her. Neocon Imperialist Wars are not very popular around the world. I wish there was some other force that could stop them. Because I have a bad feeling that the troops that are being pulled out of Iraq will be sent to our next war, which of course, will be 'for humanitarian reasons'!

Thanks for the link. I will definitely read it. Did you see the Human Rights Organizations pleading with NATO to protect the civilians in Sirte last week, women and children especially where they said the conditions were horrific? They had no food, no water, they were under fire and could not get out?

I laughed when our thread hi-jacker assured us the investigation into Gadaffi's death would be done by the NTC! I would not believe a word they had to say. Nor would most people.

Thanks you for the thread and the links, maybe some other time we can post some real facts without being censored and hijacked. They are desperate to hide the facts though so what are you going to do? :-)

[polly7]

116. Yes.

The lies were accepted without question and the 'No-Fly Zone' was a sham from the start. This was a complete pile of bull* every bit as much as Iraq. I wish there was a transcript of this video, but haven't found one. Colin Powell went in front of the U.N. with lies, the air-stikes in Libya and genocide were lies ..... yet collected 'mouth to ear' from the 'NTC Prime Minister' (no documentation whatsoever, and later proven to be completely false) to make the case for NATO intervention. I guess they knew this wouldn't be enough of a 'popular uprising' without these lies.


"This document provides an understanding of how international law and international justice work but also how their basic principles can be circumvented. The various resolutions adopted against Libya are based on the basis of various allegations: including the statement that Gaddafi had used air power against its own people and launched a violent crackdown against the insurgency, this one claiming the lives of more of 6000 civilians.

These allegations were aired without ever having been verified. Yet on the basis of these statements that the Government of the Libyan Jamahiriya was excluded from the Council of Human Rights United Nations before being referred to the Security Council of the United Nations.

One of the main sources behind the claim that Qaddafi would have decimated its own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights, an organization attached to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH) . On 21 February, the Secretary General of the Libyan League for Human Rights Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir was originally a petition with the organization UN Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition is signed by more than 70 NGOs. Then a few days later, February 25, 2011, Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir went to the Board of Human Rights United Nations in order to expose allegations of crimes of the government of Muammar Gaddafi.
During the last month of July we went to Geneva to speak to us to Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir ..."

http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english

I agree with you about believing the word of the NTC. I saw pictures of the bodies they hung in the streets, read the reports of black migrants raped, tortured and murdered, reports of hospital personnel pleading for help, saw the lies over Qaddafi's death played out in real time, the butchery and savagery of it all.

What's done is done, but it's sickening to realize yet one more nation and thousands of people have just been destroyed for more LIES.

[bvar22]

134. ALL the attackers in this thread have been able to muster...

..are shrill screams of "LIAR" and other personal attacks.
None have been able to produce reliable facts that counter her report.
Keep the faith.

K&R

[AmirDal]

113. Thank you polly7 for bringing the work of this Journalist to attention. I hadn't heard her before

[polly7]

117. You're very welcome .. thank YOU for your informative posts. n/t.

[AmirDal]

122. "Informative posts" such as yours can't change the twisted perspectives of decades of anti-Gathafi

western media themes, deserved or not.

Certainly, the colonel was a genuine enemy and obstacle to the goals of imperialism and colonialism, often agressively attacking their interest, and he paid the price as Western organs of propaganda made him and his revolution both hated and mocked in the West.

[Swede]

10. Libya Lizzy,Baghdad Bob,Tokyo Rose...........

[wtmusic]

27. Um, except Baghdad Bob was an Iraqi citizen

and Tokyo Rose was vindicated.

Propaganda is an amazing tool.

[AmirDal]

17. Recommended Appears very rational, The criticisms seem just nasty attacks on the lady

without good argument.

[sabrina 1]

93. Yes, that's exactly what they are.

[tabatha]

18. Cannot wait for the history of the revolution to be written.

Independent journalist Lizzie Phelan confirmed by Dr Franklin Lamb argues that Libyan government forces remain in de facto control of the city...Lizzie Phelan who is in Tripoli says allowing the rebels inside the capital could well be a strategic move on the part of Libya troops who have corralled the rebels into a single location.

“What we have heard is that the strategy of the Libyan government and army was to permit the rebels into the city because previously they have been operating in a sneaky manner and it was very difficult to know who they were and where they were hiding, so that they could be dealt with in a direct manner,” the journalist says.

(We all know that that was false.)

She was, of course, simply a Gaddafi propaganda shill, and Veterans Today predicted that the after action analysis on the base reporting by these phony journalists would be exposed in detail. Most were avid anti-imperialist socialists with more than a little bias baggage which even a blind man could see. We plan to review every detail of their bogus reporting when the Libyans have the time to begin writing the history of their revolution..

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/10/20/death-on-tv-gaddafi-questions/

[DCBob]

29. These clueless "independent" reporters need to exposed for the frauds they are.

They do great harm to journalism.

[wtmusic]

30. I'll be first to accept your offer.

I'm still waiting for evidence that contradicts what she's saying, other than the good faith of the U.S. government and MSNBC.

[DCBob]

31. jeez what are you people smoking??

common fking sense.

[wtmusic]

33. Whoa...checkmate!

How can I possibly respond to the "anyone whose beliefs contradict mine must be insane/high" defense?

Masterful.

[DCBob]

35. not playing chess. its a simple matter of fact vs fiction.

Has any credible news source reported anything like the non-sense this woman is spewing. You do realize she has stopped reportng and taken her blog down. That might be a clue she knows the jig is up.

[wtmusic]

36. Now I'm hearing some evidence, but fact vs. fiction is not at all a simple matter.

Taking her blog down might be due to it being discredited, it's certainly a possibility.

I'm assuming the "credible news sources" you refer to are the same ones who trumpeted the virtual certainty of WMDs?

[DCBob]

37. So, since you posted none, I assume you have no credible news source to back up her claims.

thank you. I rest my case.

[wtmusic]

41. The "truth in numbers" rule was decimated with the discovery of zero WMDs.

But nice try.

[DCBob]

48. not asking for "numbers"... just one credible source., anyone, anywhere, any country.

any planet.

[wtmusic]

60. Until you show she's not credible

I'll assume it's possible she's credible. And because you called her a fraud, the onus is on you to defend that statement.

[joshcryer]

64. I already did that, now, you can assume that her lying about Tripoli, her removal of her twitter...

...account and blog, and basically her retreating from public view after being shown to be a known liar still means she can be credible on the case of the lies she spouted in the video in the OP. Sure.

I'm not going to waste my time to actually disprove each and every lie in that video with links. It's not worth my time.

[TheKentuckian]

125. Josh, you are asserting that being wrong is the same as lying. You even have stated that you

believe she believes the information which by definition means she isn't lying. A lie is a willful distortion rather than simply being in error.

We are all wrong at times, that does not equate to purposeful efforts to mislead utilizing false information.

You are conflating inaccuracy with willful misinformation, skipping any critique of the facts and going straight to attacking the woman's character. Even going so far as to call her a bitch, I think you are over-invested emotionally and probably growing very one sided as indicated by that outburst and stating that 18 strikes doesn't rise to horrible when surely to God, one can be pretty damn destructive from the perspective on the ground. That was very dismissive and far from neutral observer.

I'm not big into this deal so I claim no particular insight but am strictly addressing how you are reacting and I supported an air cap and even taking out heavy armament, I only expected the President to get authorization from Congress and play this deal clearly on the up and up.

The vehemence just seems over the top, especially when you admit you believe this person is reporting as they honestly believe the conditions to be. That says that you are unwilling or unable to be fair and are dedicated to protecting a particular point of view.

Liar is character attack not one on the accuracy of her information, it is personal.

[DCBob]

70. never mind.. just go stew in your fantasy conspiracy bizarro world with Lizzie et al.

ciao.

[wtmusic]

84. And you in your "WMDs are still buried under the Tigris" world

And never the twain shall meet

:D

[DCBob]

87. When did I say anything about WMDs?? You are one confused desperate dude.

FYI: I was against the Iraq war from day one. I attended three anti-Iraq war protests in DC. The Iraq war was total fraud and the biggest mistake this nation has made in decades. Over and out.

[sabrina 1]

103. Her claims have been backed up all along by Human Rights Orgs

and other organizations who were actually there, as she was. Where are you getting your information? Because if you do not know that she has stated facts, then you must be relying the MSM for your 'facts'. Every news organization other than the Western Press, has backed up her claims. Just last week, several Human Rights organizations made a plea to NATO to protect civilians from the so-called 'rebels'. Of course the 'rebels' are under the control of NATO, so that was a wasted effort sadly. And as expected, they did not protect those civilians.

So, what exactly did she get wrong? You've claimed she is wrong, but have not stated what she is wrong about.

[sabrina 1]

95. We're all waiting for the evidence, but don't hold your breath.

I rarely come into threads where those who support the carnage in Libya are posting, as it is useless exercise. But Polly was under attack from the same people who seem to feel that if they insult, attack, and abuse those who disagree with them, it will somehow get people to see things their way.

An Imperial war, being supported by the 'left' is something I never thought I would see. Hopefully the threats by the British Parliament to investigate their participation in this, will come to pass and maybe this time, some of the warmongers will be brought to some kind of justice.

Sarkozy is Neocon, warmongering, Bush crony. So war for him, especially one that is on the PNAC list, was a given. I hope it helps get him thrown out of office in his next election. That and his support for the corrupt banking system. He's in so much trouble now, with no money to rescue his Banking friends I would not be surprised if that is the reason why he decided to join the invasion of Libya.

[woo me with science]

19. I know a good one, too.

Seek praise for getting the non-mercenary troops out of Iraq...

even while the SuperCommittee adopts your plan to slash Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid in order to preserve the military industrial complex.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2161681

[On the Road]

32. Oh Dear God,

I guess this is never going to end.

[wtmusic]

34. It probably won't

because the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[joshcryer]

46. Certain "progressives" or "leftists" don't want it to end, but Libyan's have proven them wrong...

...and liars time and time again. Lizzy is a fucking liar and Libya is going to do just fine.

[polly7]

53. The thing is, 'Libya' isn't just your rebels.

There are millions of people who supported their gov't and didn't ask for this carnage. Fuck them too?

[joshcryer]

55. Tripoli, a city of 2 million, fell to 2000 noncombatants. I highly doubt they "supported" Gaddafi.

In fact, only one city, Sirte, was the only city in the entire country to fight back against the freedom fighters. The rest either went quietly or quickly.

I dunno where you get off thinking you can revise history like you have done. The "rebels" aren't "mine." I merely observed a popular uprising and revolution, and apparently some still cannot accept it.

Thankfully the Libyan people have and will continue to advance their country despite what a bunch of "concerned" (lying) "progressives" think.

[polly7]

62. So every single supporter had to be a 'fighter' to be counted?

That makes no sense at all. The video showed streets full of supporters during those two weeks in February before NATO intervention. I can't imagine they'd all be out there fighting heavily armed rebels under NATO protection.

Yes, hopefully all of Libya will advance.

"I dunno where you get off" thinking your version of history is fact and that I haven't got the right to my own opinion. You're the one pushing something as fact ........ I posted a video.

[joshcryer]

63. No, it's math, polly7. If only 1% were supportive of him and took up arms, they would not...

...have taken Tripoli. This seems really hard for you to understand when you cannot provide any evidence that Gaddafi had popular support, he didn't.

You don't have a right to spread disinformation from known liars uncontested. Sorry.

[polly7]

67. LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hlOhymEY7c&feature=player_embedded#

Disinformation???? The video clips don't lie. Why would you assume people getting free health-care, education, housing - people who took to the streets in HUGE numbers, weren't supporters? You don't get to make up your own facts. Sorry.

[joshcryer]

73. That video posted is a hate video that distorts the entire uprising in 21 cities. Peacefully.

You could watch this video and see that the uprising in Libya was homogenous, across the entire country, not just the "LFIG supporters" or the "terrorists" or the "hifter backed CIA" people in Benghazi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z41kQvx4uKw

Every major city in Libya, polly7. You have been mislead. You're posting propaganda in a thread with a title about tricks of propaganda and it's goddamn glorious.

[polly7]

79. I've been reading your pro-NATO propaganda for months.

It's been goddamn glorious. You've been misled.

Don't tell me what to believe or what not to.

And no ...... it's not a hate video at all. It's clips and news articles combined into a video. Exactly what you've been using.

[joshcryer]

86. It is most certainly a hate video.

Are all Libyan's represented by LIFG?

Are all Libyan's represented by the isolated incidences of Black African persecution?

Are all Libyan's represented by the actions of a few hundred individuals who attacked police stations?

No.

All Libyan's are represented by the 21 cities that undeniably rose up in peaceful protest against Gaddafi.

My video is the balanced one.

And I am not pro-NATO.

[polly7]

89. LOL Video clips and newspaper articles make a hate video?

If that's so .... your threads must surely be hate threads.

Your nastiness towards me for posting a simple video tells me your information is far from balanced. If you were confident with it, you wouldn't need the personal attacks and insults.

[joshcryer]

90. Nah, they're isolated reports that cannot represent the Libyan uprising as a whole.

You cannot say, for example, Hifter's arrival in Benghazi has any bearing on the western mountain Berbers. Sure he may have got the CIA to help out here or there, but in the end it means squat. They chose to rise up for their own reasons and this "imperialist exceptionalism" really starts to become evident.

It couldn't possibly be that these people rose up on their own accord to rid themselves of a tyrant.

It had to be CIA.

It had to be LIFG (terrorist groups).

It had to be racists.

Do you realize how paternalistic and cruel and just denigrating that shit is?

As far as my thread is concerned everything is reported, including the isolated incidences of LIFG and such. Good or bad, it's in there. To be frank, the entire conflict was bad. But given that we live in a black and white world apparently, only the bad stuff against the rebels is worth posting, even if it's proven lies.

[polly7]

118. Just as your reports do not represent the Libyan uprising as a whole.

What's cruel and denigrating, is having to lie about genocide and air strikes based on ....... nothing ........ to get involvement of NATO and thousands and thousands of bombings that destroyed innocents who supported their gov't, but were never heard.

http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english

[sabrina 1]

80. Nato took Tripoli, NATO took Libya but because the people

were not on board with their invasion, it took them, the most powerful organization in the world, eight months to do so. Egytians, with no help from outside forces took down a dictator in 18 days, with no arms, no tanks, missiles or air support, because a majority of the people wanted him gone.

It's called logic. Mubarak could not stay nor could Ben Ali, because a vast majority of their people would not accept them as their leaders anymore. Libya was so completely different, where only a relatively small proportion of the population opposed the government and even with the help of NATO and with all the arms they received from Qatar and elsewhere, they still cannot win.

Wake up, you are in the small minority of people on this planet who still believe that NATO is a kind, altruistic, organization caring about human rights and innocent civilians.

Why are they still there? You told us they would leave as soon as the civilians were safe? That was months ago. The only civilians now who need protection are the victims of the 'rebels' and NATO has refused to protect them. So again, why is NATO still there, and why are the Brits talking about 'boots on the ground' emm, I mean '
a peace-keeping force' to protect, well, I'm not sure who, or what, their oil interests I guess. Did I not tell you they would call it a 'peace keeping force'?

Unbelievable.

[joshcryer]

85. You are completely untruthful, I do not "still believe NATO" is any of that garbage.

And NATO already set a deadline to be withdrawn. :rofl:

Meanwhile Brother Leader lost and Tripoli is free, along with the rest of Libya. And Lizzy is a liar.

[sabrina 1]

97. NATO invaded a sovereign country and every word this professional

journalist says in this video has been backed up now by many other professional organizations. Including what Libya was like under Gadaffi, and the support he had from the Libyan people. All of it. I am ashamed to have fallen for the western propaganda about that country. And she is also correct in reporting that thousands were killed, including children, by your good friends the neocons' War Machine.

You have hi-jacked this thread, desperate to silence the truth coming from an independent and very courageous journalist, not afraid of the Western Powers. But you are doing their work for them attacking her without a single piece of credible evidence to refute a word she says.

Like Iraq, the truth will eventually be revealed, but it will be too late for the Libyan people. I would be ashamed to have facilitated this crime in any way. In fact I am for the small part I did initially play in supporting it.

[inna]

104. "You are completely untruthful" - quit fucking projecting and slandering good people.

I cannot believe the vileness, nastiness and viciousness of some posters - or rather, their apparent confidence in their complete impunity.

This whole thread (plus parallel assaults in the other one) belongs in the "shakes head in disbelief/disgust" category, and apparently the worst offenders have been deleted already.

Why are you being so damn abusive, Josh, and how_the_fuck do you get away with this sort of vile and atrocious behavior?

:wtf:

Really, wtf??

[polly7]

119. What you said. n/t.

[AmirDal]

100. The US conquered 30 mill Afghans with only air power, CIA and special ops and local opposition

Tripoli was a totally civilian city. Why should it have been very difficult to wipe out opposition in Tripoli, all of 5 million population of Libya when a formal army had been basically disbanded for decades in favor of a few small brigades.

The facts of the last 6 months totally discredit the statements of those attacking this independent journalist.

Given Western military air power and special operations on the ground and a totally desert environment in the surrounds, the statement about Tripoli does not make any sense. What is truly amazing is how long it took. The Taliban government fell in 2 months. With genuine massive popular support of the Libya population an really unpopular regime should have collapsed in "days not weeks."

[sabrina 1]

127. Thank you. It is clear that he had the popular support of the

people, we were wrong to assume otherwise. Egypt's government fell in 18 days because the government was so unpopular with the majority of the people there.

What is sad about this is that Libyans will most likely continue to fight but they don't stand a chance against the Western powers and many more will die.

[On the Road]

129. I Don't Even Know if She's a Liar

I didn't listen to entire clip.

She was obviously trotted out to the same staged pro-Qaddaffi events as all the other journalists. Unlike almost all the others, however, she believed they were genuine and represented the population.

As far as there being no evidence that Benghazi residents were about to be massacred, there is no way to offer proof of something that hasn't happened yet. What you did have at that point was evidence of massacres in other cities -- mutilated bodies of children, rockets and anti-aircraft fire directed against apartment buildings, huge shell casings, and eyewitness reports from all over the country. Plus Qaddaffi's own statements of his intent, which seemed pretty clear.

To disbelieve that, you have to believe that the whole world is staged for the express purpose of undermining your preconceived ideas. Potemkin villages might convince an empress on a riverboat, but it doesn't work with dozen of reporters and thousands of citizens with cell phones and laptops in a huge country.

[AmirDal]

130. I think the early claims of atrocities are mostly debunked by HRW and Amnesty

Several human rights organizations—including Amnesty International, have conducted investigations and found no evidence of most of the alleged crimes. The bigest question posed was how come there were no video evidence of the events claimed when there were so many camera and cell phones in the possession of the groups making the claims. That is still a mystery.

They did find, however, that rebels in Benghazi knowingly made false claims and manufactured evidence throughout the course of the conflict.

[On the Road]

132. I Have No Doubt Some Rebels Made Some Things Up

or that rebels have committed war crimes, especially those tough old Berbers in the mountains. I don't know of an armed revolution anywhere where those things were not true at some level, including the American Revolution.

But it not correct to characterize Amnesty International as taking the position that allegations against the old regime were mostly debunked or unproven. On the contrary, their archives are littered with condemnations of the old regime. You can look up as many as you want on their site:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/al-gaddafi%E2%80%99s-forces-carry-out-indiscriminate-attacks-misratah-2011-05-08">LIBYAN LEADER MUST END SPIRALLING KILLINGS
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/libya-attacks-against-misratah-residents-point-war-crimes-2011-05-05">LIBYA: ATTACKS AGAINST MISRATAH RESIDENTS POINT TO WAR CRIMES
LIBYA: CAMPAIGN OF ENFORCED DISAPPEARANCES IN NAFUSA REGION MUST END
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/killing-captives-points-war-crimes-libyan-government-forces-2011-04-11">KILLING OF CAPTIVES POINTS TO WAR CRIMES BY LIBYAN GOVERNMENT FORCES

[AmirDal]

133. You confuse Amnesty's own analysis of pre-intervention claims with post-intervention reports

Amnesty could not find evidence of most claims of atrocities which were the basis of the call for Western intervention.

Once the all-out war started there were clearly atrocities on both sides -- again as confirmed by HRW and AI.

[On the Road]

135. By Post-Intervention,

I take it you are referring to their September 13 report: Libya: The battle for Libya: Killings, disappearances and torture.

It contain names, photos, and details of a lot of specific incidents. Here are some pertinent selections:

CONTENTS
3. Unlawful killings: From protests to armed conflict ......................................................34
4. Enforced disappearances, detentions and torture.......................................................57
5. Abuses by opposition forces ..................................................................................70

(p.34) 3. UNLAWFUL KILLINGS: FROM PROTESTS TO ARMED CONFLICT
In mid-February unarmed demonstrators calling for greater freedom were gunned down in the streets by al-Gaddafi forces, in what turned out to be a futile attempt to suppress the protest movement.... In their efforts to regain control of opposition-held areas, al-Gaddafi forces unleashed a brutal military campaign, often targeting residents in opposition-held areas who were not involved in the fighting. They fired indiscriminate rockets, mortars and artillery shells as well as cluster bombs into residential neighbourhoods, illing and injuring scores of residents. On several occasions they fired live ammunition or heavy weapons, including tank shells and rocketpropelled grenades (RPGs), at residents who were fleeing – in what appeared at times to be a policy of “shoot anything that moves”. Such attacks were particularly widespread in Misratah, but in some cases also took place
elsewhere, such as in and around Ajdabiya

(p.35) EXCESSIVE LETHAL FORCE AGAINST DEMONSTRATORS
From the outset, al-Gaddafi security and armed forces responded to anti-government demonstrations with lethal force, firing live rounds from automatic assault rifles at unarmed demonstrators, killing scores and injuring hundreds. In eastern Libya, most of the casualties were in Benghazi and al-Bayda. Some 170 people were killed and more than 1,500 were injured in the two cities between 16 and 21 February alone.

(p.70) 5. ABUSES BY OPPOSITION FORCES
Opposition fighters and supporters have abducted, arbitrarily detained, tortured and killed former members of the security
forces, suspected al-Gaddafi loyalists, captured soldiers and foreign nationals wrongly suspected of being mercenaries fighting on behalf of al-Gaddafi forces. No independent or credible investigations are known to have been carried out by the NTC, nor effective measures taken to hold to account those responsible for these abuses.

(p.91) During the conflict, the organization found evidence that forces loyal to Colonel al-Gaddafi committed violations of IHL, in some cases amounting to war crimes. They launched indiscriminate attacks and direct attacks on civilians. Al-Gaddafi’s security forces also committed gross violations of human rights, including the deliberate killing of scores of unarmed demonstrators, a widespread campaign of enforced disappearances and arbitrary detention, and torture and other ill-treatment of detainees. To the extent that these violations have been committed as part of a systematic or widespread attack against the civilian population, in pursuit of official policy, they constitute crimes against humanity. Members and supporters of the opposition also committed human rights abuses and violations of IHL, albeit on a smaller scale, including violent attacks against perceived supporters of al-Gaddafi and suspected “mercenaries”.

[AmirDal]

136. AI said they could not find evidence of many claims of atrocity made during appeals for Western

intervention.

The September report documents crimes both pre and post intervention for which some evidence could be found and notes 170 deaths pre-intervention and crimes and abuses on both sides throughout the conflict.

-----

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/patrick-cockburn-dont-believe-everything-you-see-and-read-about-gaddafi-2302830.html#mainColumn


Ever since the Libyan uprising started on 15 February, the foreign media have regurgitated stories of atrocities carried out by Gaddafi's forces. It is now becoming clear that reputable human rights organisations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have been unable to find evidence for the worst of these. For instance, they could find no credible witnesses to the mass rapes said to have been ordered by Gaddafi. Foreign mercenaries supposedly recruited by Gaddafi and shown off to the press were later quietly released when they turned out to be undocumented labourers from central and west Africa.

The crimes for which there is proof against Gaddafi are more prosaic, such as the bombardment of civilians in Misrata who have no way to escape. There is also proof of the shooting of unarmed protesters and people at funerals early on in the uprising. Amnesty estimates that some 100-110 people were killed in Benghazi and 59-64 in Baida, though it warns that some of the dead may have been government supporters.

The Libyan insurgents were adept at dealing with the press from an early stage and this included skilful propaganda to put the blame for unexplained killings on the other side. One story, to which credence was given by the foreign media early on in Benghazi, was that eight to 10 government troops who refused to shoot protesters were executed by their own side. Their bodies were shown on TV. But Donatella Rovera, senior crisis response adviser for Amnesty International, says there is strong evidence for a different explanation. She says amateur video shows them alive after they had been captured, suggesting it was the rebels who killed them.

[On the Road]

137. 1) Read the Amnesty Report

complete with names, places, photos, dates, incidents and numbers.
2) Read between the lines for whatever "hard evidence" you might image should exist, regardless of what their actual conclusions were.
3) Claim that Amnesty International found "no hard evidence."
4) Completely misrepresent their report.

[AmirDal]

138. This is September. Amnesty found evidence of crime on a much smaller scale than claimed. That is

their report. The opposition faction claimed thousands massacred. Amnesty could not find evidence, but rather found many separate instances of violations for rights and shootings into crowds, much like happens in Syria every Friday. The total was 172 tragic and inexcusable deaths prior to the intervention. Amnesty also pointed out that military actions was against armed militants in most cases.

Please read all the reports.

[On the Road]

141. Well, All I Can Say Is

there's nothing on their site to indicate that they've repudiated the main findings of the report they just issued six weeks ago.

There is a difference between presenting Amnesty's conclusions and looking for indications of hard evidence in the text. Perhaps this accounts for it. For example, the following http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/libya%E2%80%99s-ntc-must-protect-evidence-abu-salim-mass-grave-site-2011-09-26">article pretty clearly says that Amnesty has not examined any evidence confirming the 1996 Abu Salim Prison massacre. On the other hand, they equally clearly are not casting doubt on whether it happened or not.

[sendero]

105. I have only ONE question.

... for the legions of Gaddifi sympathizers here.

Did this whole thing begin with a POPULAR UPRISING inspired in part by the events in Tunisia OR NOT.

Because IF IT DID, NATO WAS 100% justified in everything it did and comparisons to Iraq are IDIOTIC.

So, PROVE IT DIDN'T or STOP making false equivalencies.

[AmirDal]

106. I think that question was answered again and again at the begining. I was not POPULAR

if by popular you mean that a huge part of the population rose up against the regime.

The uprising was principally based on a long-opposed faction in the anti-Gaddafi eastern Libya where it had strong support in the city of Benghazi, but amounted to a few thousand young men, at the most, for the first few months.

While we must assume that many Libyans did not like the was of the authoritarian regime and may have hated the dictator for various reaons, I don't remember and documentation of "popular" opposition prior. Brutal crimes were committed against known opponents, but the vast majority of the population emerged from abject poverty to relatively happy and productive lives under the Gathafi regime.

Keep in mind that while there were many weapons in Libya, the regular army had been disbanded and military de-emphasized in Libya for a very long time. A small hand-full of militants could have taken over the country quickly if the uprising was truly POPULAR -- just like Gathafi did in 1969, with no loss of life.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/31/libyan-rebels-number-less-than-1000/

From my recollection, human right agencies have since discounted all of the claims of massacre by Gathafi forces before the Western intervention, pointing out that with all the cameras and cell-phone cameras in the largely middle-class population of Libya there would be at least some video evidence of the purported events if they really happened, and non have ever been produced.

[sendero]

107. So you are asserting.

.... that is was not a popular uprising based on the fact that people with a few AK47s did not quickly swamp a fully armed modern military?

Popular does not imply the entire country only a majority. In any regime, there are lots of people who are doing just fine thank you and do not want change. I remain unconvinced by your argument.

[AmirDal]

108. I think you need to go back to the human rights agencies reports re the pre-intervention period

Obviously bad deeds were committed but I recall that many of them were surprised a at huge gap between what was claimed by the militant opposition and what evidence they could actually uncover.

Your comment suggest that you do not know the history of the Libyan military or that of the various armed factions in Libya. The hard-core opposition to Gathafi had the most extensive training and experience as jihadist fighters, being highly trained and having serving as militant leaders in actions through the region as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The motivation of thr main opposition was well documented as rooted in religious fanticism and regional/tribal loyalty -- remember, their clan leader and King had been deposed by a socialist, infidel, poser with questionable family lineage.

This is not something that was disputed, even my US military and intelligence. The regular Libyan army had long been disbanded, weapons and armored vehicles stock-piled, with only small brigages active for show, as well as occasionally going against the small groups of militant opponents.

Also check the findings regarding claims of planes bombing civilians -- I think they all turned out false. Not that anyone cared. The basis for a No-Fly Zone was never found -- that is why from the beginning it was a "no-move" zone.

In any event, it is over now, and we must wish the Libyan people well for the future. The new regime should to well. Libya has a fantastic infrastructure of well-designed roads and towns, technical institutes and universities. They are also many educated technocrats in the new regime and their focus is very nationalist -- Libya-centric -- rather than pan-Africanist -- so they will likely attend to the needs of Libya first rather that dabble in continental politics.

[sendero]

111. I suspect my standard for intervention..

.. would have been somewhat lower than yours. If I were convinced, and I was, that Gaddafi was ready, willing and able to kill large numbers of civilian, that would be enough for me.

I'm sorry, I just don't find this situation remotely analogous to Iraq. Did we "do the right thing"? Maybe not but was it "righter than what Gaddafi would have done"? almost certainly so.

[inna]

114. welcome to DU, and I hope to see more of your posts!

:hi:

[AmirDal]

115. Thank you, gracious lady

[countryjake]

109. Shout much?

Being against Western Imperialism most certainly does not make one a supporter of Qaddafi. Did you even watch the video in the OP? Care to make a comment on what she testified to?

The overthrow of Ben Ali took only a matter of weeks and surprisingly, required no violent sorties or NATO airstrikes to achieve a very popular outcome.

Bringing down the Qaddafi regime was so "popularly" desired that NATO forces practically immediately jumped into the fray...doesn't that make you scratch your head and just go hmmmm? Sure took that "popular uprising" quite awhile to accomplish what "everyone" in Libya wanted, didn't it?

I would hesitate to compare the regime change in Iraq with the one currently being celebrated...the gloating of the MSM was decidedly more hysterical when that crusty old statue came toppling over in Baghdad's Firdos Square. Of course, that was a bona fide, "declared" war, so it was a bit more proper for all of the "mission accomplished" folderol, although I find the drooling ecstasy displayed by both our sec. of state and the prez, this week, to be quite comparable to the histrionics of that Cheney/Rove gang, way back when. Supposedly, violations of the Geneva Conventions is what gave NATO the final go-ahead to seek and destroy Qaddafi and friends, but it is not much of a surprise that those same Conventions were off somewhere blowin' in the wind when it came to putting the last nail in the coffin of Libya's future as a free and independent nation. Hell, forget Libya, it's on to the entire Continent of Africa, now! Drill baby drill.

[sendero]

112. I watched enough of it.

....to see clearly that her characterizations of undisputed facts were not something I would remotely agree with.

Two people can see the same events and draw completely different interpretations. The ideas she expressed early on I took exception to, so I didn't bother with the rest.

I am as deeply suspicious of the MIC as anyone (check my posts) and perhaps there was some opportunism here. But Gadaffi? Fuck that bastard.

[countryjake]

139. Then don't you also find it suspicious that anyone would ask for their nation to be bombed?

Just read this, and see if you still believe that the NATO mission was about "protecting civilians" in Libya from Qaddafi, as most all of the MSM has been proclaiming since March. The MIC is reveling in their "new way".


NATO War in Libya Shows U.S. Was Vital to Toppling Qaddafi
By THOM SHANKER and ERIC SCHMITT

Published: October 21, 2011

"To be fair, while the fighting has dragged on longer than anticipated, the death on Thursday of the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, gave senior Obama administration officials an opportunity to trumpet the new American way of war to a nation weary of ground combat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The United States military has spent just $1.1 billion in Libya, and in the words of Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., “didn’t lose a single life.” He added that “this is more of the prescription for how to deal with the world as we go forward than it has been in the past.”

Libya proved that the leaders of some medium-size powers can be overthrown from a distance, without putting American boots on the ground, by using weapons fired from sea and air with the heaviest load carried by partner nations — in the case of Libya, European allies and even some Arab states.

Now, that mission is winding down. NATO said Friday that it would cease operations in Libya on Oct. 31, exactly seven months after the alliance assumed full control of the campaign."



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/22/world/africa/nato-war-in-libya-shows-united-states-was-vital-to-toppling-qaddafi.html?ref=africa

[inna]

140. “this is more of the prescription for how to deal with the world"

what a scary fucking thing to say.

absolutely monstrous.


damn. :nuke:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

120. I do not take any mainstream news source at face value anymore

I've seen how they cover events and people that I know firsthand.

I've seen how they make huge errors in covering subjects that I know a lot about.

I've seen how they leave out important facts about subjects that I know a lot about in order to push an Establishment point of view.

I've seen how they pick what is flashy and emotional over what is true.

I've seen how they create false equivalencies, as if both sides of an issue are equally right, even if one side relies on lies and distortions, and that there is no truth, only matters of opinion.

I've seen how they appeal to people's jingoism.

I wish I could have seen more foreign coverage of the Libya events, but I was busy with work. In the lead-up to the Iraq invasion, Newsworld International (which Al Gore bought and turned into The Current, for which I will resent him forever), a channel with mostly Canadian content, really cut through the propaganda that we were getting in the U.S.

During the Grenada invasion of 1983, NPR was relying entirely on Reagan White House news releases and saying that there was no way to get direct information. Somehow, the Canadian crew of "As It Happens," which Minnesota Public Radio carries, knew that the U.S., Canada, and most Caribbean islands are on the same phone system, so they just picked up their phones and called people such as the head of the medical school. What they reported was way different from the official story and confirmed in other sources years later.

The moral of this story: Get as much foreign news as possible.

[AmirDal]

123. In Libya, all major foreign media were run from countries engaged in conflict: BBC, AFP, AJE

Impossible to be impartial when your country and audience has an interest in the outcome.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

126. That's why the Canadian news sources were so valuable in the Iraq War

Canada didn't send troops, so the CBC reporters just reported what they saw without having to please their own government.

[Zorra]

124. It just sucks that MSM outlets have been such bald faced lying sacks

of dung for so long that we will probably never really accurately know what the situation in Libya is/was.

This is why I never post regarding Libya:

Although I have read a great deal about the situation in Libya, I have no clue if I have read any information that is real about the actual circumstances there.

Worldwide MSM is owned by wealthy private interests that have an agenda, and that agenda is to use the media to suit their needs, and their needs often include presenting false information to produce the general public opinion that they desire.

I am much more inclined to believe credible independent investigative journalists, journalists who will buck the MSM system to report actual facts.

Still, I am not informed enough to actually make any kind of judgment about what is happening in Libya.

[polly7]

131. "Rank hypocisy"

"The UN sanctions change of heart, was put in place now it appears, on very dubious moral grounds ... unsubstantiated rumours of genocide in Benghazi....."

'NATO bombed Libya back into Stone Age'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TNczox-l0Sk

"During her unannounced visit to Libya, U.S. chief diplomat - Hillary Clinton - stated that Washington hopes to see ousted leader Colonel Gaddafi captured or killed. To discuss the situation in Libya and country's international relations RT's joined by Annie Machon, a former MI5 intelligence officer. "