Just a little more on a bad Man's death and law

[nadinbrzezinski]

Over the years in EMS while training my kids not just in CPR but the finer points of the laws of war I took a graduate course in International Law and had the chance to speak with a few legal scholars. One of those conversations was with an international committee expert in humanitarian law. At the time it was purely, well mostly hypothetical...why protect somebody who is arrested in the field while it is known this person has committed a few crimes? His words came back while having these discussions. You protect these guys and take care of medical needs if need be not because of them. After all they will, or shoud, stand trial. You do it for the rest of us. You do it because if a driving principle of law is that we all deserve our day in court, something dies when we don't. And this is the problem with vigilantism.

Now did I ever transport real bad people? Yup. A child abuser, not one kid, not two, he was convicted of 25 rapes. We took to hospital with a bullet to the thigh from local jail where he was serving time and there was a riot...

Then there is the cartel boss...I will let you use your imagination. let's put it this way, charming man and pure evil.

And when the civil war started for real we maintained our neutrality.

Why bother with this? As I said in a thread, the worst animals need that protection and for the sake of Libya if crimes are found, apply the applicable military justice...or a nasty,shaky, precedent is set. It's not about the monster...it's about the rest of us not becoming those monsters. It is easy...and the views expressed here tell me were are slowly moving into that night. And yes, we have our own monsters...and i'd not advocate vigilante justice in their case either.

[Swede]

1. He was caught fresh after a battle,in which his captors probably lost friends.

Anyone trying to stop them probably would have suffered the same fate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Rationalize all you want

At that point he WAS A PRISONER OF WAR. People have been executed for doing precisely that. As I said a court martial is in order.

[11 Bravo]

28. Are Libyan rebels bound by the UCMJ? I'm not sure who you think should convene a court martial ...

or who would preside over such a court.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. The rebels have their own military justice system

Just like any other recognized lawful combatant around the world.

But I am sure you already knew that.

So it falls within their own investigative body and justice system.

For the record your neighbors to the north and south don't abide by the UCMJ but their own military laws, again I am dang positive you knew that.

What I don'r expect you to know is that recognized lawful combatants in a civil war (these guys fall in that category) usually follow a modicum of those laws as part of the recognition process. This includes the bare minimum of pow protections and at times exchange of prisoners. This is way too much inside baseball for most grunts. So yes, the NTC promised to follow them rules. At least a bare minimum of them.

[sabrina 1]

5. Those excuses were not accepted at Nuremberg nor should they

be. We do not know what happened, which is why there needs to be an investigation, but not one that can be influenced by NATO countries.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. The NTC apparently has launched an investigation

And the UN is also asking for one. And I say good on them.

[Gregorian]

3. Thank you. We are either civil, or we're barbarians. Our goal is to transcend the desire of the ego.

You've stated it very well. I am reminded of why we have a Constitution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. And a body of laws

But we have moved away from the country where a commanding general's first general order was to protect prisoners in the field...well before this became fashion.

[sabrina 1]

6. Rec'd. Thank you!

[Exilednight]

8. I find it amazing how some on this site bashed Bush for pushing for Saddam to be hung, but now some

of those very same people are defending this action. Wrong is wrong, no matter who the president is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Difference...Salam HAD his day in court

I am not agnostic on the death penalty, but he did. We might argue on whether it was a just system and in my mind these guys should be sent to the Hague as a matter of course...but he did have a day in court.

[Exilednight]

12. That's kind of my point. Why did they bash Bush and now cheer Obama? Even Stalin had show trials.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Well for some

R= bad
D= good

Some of us can chew gum. Now you raised Stalin...due to the emotions involved that is precisely why these guys need to go to the Hague...that is precisely the reason.

Of course part of the road to that dark place is the bastardization of the legal system.

[pintobean]

20. Saddam was captured by US troops, not Iraqis

Had they caught and killed him, I seriously doubt we would have pushed for 'justice'.
The Libyan revolutionaries are their own entity. They are not bound by US law and they're yet to sign any international treaties. If they choose to take action against the shooter, that's their business. It doesn't matter what any of us think about it.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[pintobean]

24. I guess that means you're preaching, not discussing.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[petronius]

31. Sunrise, sunset

Swiftly fly the years,
One season following another,
Laden with happiness and tears.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Gotcha

Say nothing to this guy...not even cute piccies

:eyes:

Be easier if we went on mutual ignore by the way. I even suggested such. I will not do that on my end period, unless it is mutual.

[Amonester]

44. I am not defending it. All I say is reality:

#1 - It happened.
#2 - It's over.
#3 - The TNC and the UN are looking into it.
#4 - The killers will perhaps never be found (if they keep their mouths shut...).
#5 - What's next? NATO is out in 11 days (GOOD)!

[killbotfactory]

9. Gaddafi learned that lesson the hard way, I guess. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Nah he learned nothing

And this is a shaky way to start life as a new democracy. Why the investigation is needed. I thought that was clear on the op.. It is not about the monster...it is about the rest of us.

[killbotfactory]

27. In Libya, Gaddafi was the law.

And he pretty much stole whatever he wanted, and did whatever he wanted, to whoever he wanted.

When people grow up without any kind of expectation of justice from the government they are ruled by, they tend to take matters into their own hands, right or wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. And sorry if I can't join in the "celebration"

Or rationalize it.

[killbotfactory]

38. I think most people are just happy it's over.

At least the people who weren't direct victims of his violence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Still, for reasons that have to do with starting a new national

Life this s not a good precedent. I know too much of a Meta level, but it s not.

Why I wished they did ave that pesky trial. In the real world this can make things complex for his tribe. This is something beyond modern American life by the way.

[sabrina 1]

16. This is not about Gadaffi. This is OUR country we are talking about.

What have WE learned since we elected Democrats to restore the Rule of Law? That is the question. Do you support mob rule as witnessed in the grotesque video yesterday or not?

And what right does the US have to interfere in the affairs of other sovereign countries? Weren't we, as Democrats, opposed to this kind of intervention during the Bush years? Why have some supposed Democrats now changed their minds? They do not explain their rationale. Maybe you could?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Actually this is about both

It provides a window not just into Libya but how far we have moved away from driving principles. When Mussolini was executed there was no instant reaction...Caucescu it was condemned...sort off. The silence from our political leaders is deafening. The society is closing.

Of course this is a meta level analysis.

[killbotfactory]

26. Bush would never support a revolution against Gaddafi

Blair and Bush brought Gaddafi back into favor with the west because he was awash in oil and tortured Bush's prisoners for him. The status quo was acceptable, and Gaddafi was held up as an example of the "success" of the Bush doctrine and the Iraq war "scaring" countries into giving up their WMD.

I support popular revolutions against murderous thugs, and am glad that we answered the rebels call for help. We didn't impose a revolution on them, it was in progress when NATO finally acted.

For 40 years Gaddafi was "the law", and he his forces raped, tortured, and murdered with impunity. Why would the Libyans who suffered under such a system respect the rule of law? I don't expect anyone who grew up under that, or actively resisted such evil and saw their home, friends and family ruthlessly attacked for months by the elite military forces Gaddafi commanded until the last few seconds of his life, to behave rationally and respect international norms when they capture the guy who bragged about murdering their friends and family, and lived like a king at their expense.

If US troops had captured him and treated him like this, it would be one thing. This was done by a poorly trained militia that sprung up when Gaddafi answered the call for peaceful change with horrific violence. Even then, in the brutal videos of Gaddafi's last moments alive, some people in the crowd were calling for him to be kept alive.

[sabrina 1]

32. You have bought the propaganda. This was not a 'people's

revolution not by a long shot. And Bush's Neocons had Libya on their list of countries to invade, but they were busy in two of the wars on their list and decided instead to 'bring Libya in from the cold' temporarily. After all, it was all about the resources and so long as they could gain access to those resources, they were willing to put off their Libyan invasion until later.

Obama was quite happy to continue Bush's policies of dealing diplomatically with Gadaffi for the time being. Libya however, was always on the list of seven countries outlined by the PNAC as the most important countries strategically, for the US to invade.

Like any criminal cartel, sometimes they are patient as they are busy elsewhere. Hillary Clinton welcomed Gadaffi's son to the State Dept. and Obama posed with him for the press, all for the purpose of pushing 'business' with Libya. It was a hard sell, people after all, had been told for 20 years what a bad guy he was, only to now be told, 'he's our friend and ally'. And now, we are back to 'he's a bad guy'.

Why now? Several reasons. France eg, was the main instigator of this Imperial War and it started long before last Feb, the planning for it. We, who supported the Egyptian and Tunisian actual real people's movements, fell initially for the plot, as we were supposed to do. But some of us began to notice some odd things about this so-called 'people's revolution early on. And backed away from it. A LOT of people noticed these strange things.

The overturning of two of the West's favorite dictators was a shock and not in the plans. Libya, under Gadaffi, combined with two, now, Independent nations all next door to each other, one of them a big oil-producing nation, free from Western influence, was simply not tolerable, that was one reason. But there are list of others, the timing of using the Arab Spring to piggy back off, worked. It looked like a third country on the way to freedom. When in reality, it was anything but that. Some day we will learn more about the planning, the expats working with the CIA eg, just like Iraq. The formaly rarely changes, and why should it. It works. You actually CAN fool half of the people half of the time, and that's all they need.

Many lies have been told, just like Iraq. The interesting thing about these lies, is that this time, some, although by no means all, on the 'left' fell hard for them this time. An interesting study in human nature could be done on this. When our team does something we opposed when the other team did it, we support it. The PTBs know this. That's why they like a divided country. And that's why now, we are determined to unite.

But if it makes you feel better to believe it was all pure and NATO just came into the picture after being asked, then do so. But that is not the truth. Just as many on the right really did believe that Saddam was harboring terrorists. I can understand their firm belief in those lies now. Back then I could not. But seeing the mirror image of it happening with some on the Left, it is easier to understand.

[killbotfactory]

36. If a group of people peacefully assemble to protest and get shot down by their government

I am on their side. International politics be damned.

I was reading reports, and watching cell phone footage of Gaddafi's crackdown when it started, long before the UN and Nato decided to intervene. After Tunisia and Egypt most of the whole Arab world faced revolt. Libya was no exception, and the response from their government was ruthless, brutal, and televised. To dismiss this revolution as phony or the machinations of imperialist powers is disgusting to me. It's like listening to a holocaust denier spout of their bullshit.

[sabrina 1]

39. I was watching also. Funny thing is that once the whole thing

escalated, it was discovered that many of those 'tweeters' we were following were not even in Libya, some were traced to the US and Canada and then they disappeared altogether. Yes, we were fooled, I admit it. But once I realized that, I stopped supporting them. Some of the original protesters, the actual peaceful protesters, quit when they realized what was going on.

I listened to interviews with a few of them on NPR, poor people, they were sent to fight an army, as they said, with no way of defending them, by 'leaders' who had suddenly appeared and were 'giving us orders' but were sending us to our deaths'. As one man said, 'I have seen things, I cannot talk about now. I am going home, to protect my family. They have divided neighbor against neighbor and we do not know who they are'.

My sympathies go to those peaceful protesters. There were more of them who spoke to a few reporters and early on told about the horrors being committed against Black Africans, which I am now ashamed to say, I did not believe at first. They were shocked at the violence and claimed that it had reached a point where 'no one trusts anyone anymore. It is a nightmare'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Somehow I don't think this came out of heritage and Cato.

There s a large community of expats.

As to the violence...did not shock me or surprise me... But if you are looking for puppeteers and some did exist...look at Paris.

We'll see what happens, but NOT in us press outlets. The coverage is kaput.

[sabrina 1]

42. Yes, I agree, it was Paris. And it was planned, according to reports

months before the Arab Spring began, then that opportunity was seized, so that it would look like a part of the Arab uprisings. And that worked, many, including me at first, were fooled. Sarkozy hopefully will be thrown out of office, not just because of this, but the economic crisis which he has failed to fix despite his 'austerity' programs, designed to move the huge Bank debt to ordinary people. His country is in turmoil, he is a neocon so its no surprise he would be on board for a Neocon war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. It's not being a neocon

It's the crisis...when they are this deep they bring wars. They are always good to distract. But this would not work, no matter how hard you try, if there were no internal forces too. So we will see what the balance is when all is said...something 'bout blowback comes to mind.

[sabrina 1]

46. Yes, I know that, about the wars. But he is a Neocon, which is why

he was helped into office, and why they want to keep him there. France would not support the Iraq War because the PNAC crowd had no ally in the French Govt at the time willing to get involved in their wars. That was taken care of when they helped install Sarkozy and he was more than willing to go along with the invasion of Libya. But yes, he also desperately needs money to try to bail out his failing banks. And as things get worse, which they are, they will probably start more wars.

I hope before that happens, the People of the World somehow manage to stop them.

[gratuitous]

13. Oh, principles!

Start following principles, and where does THAT lead? If you can't celebrate violent death at the hands of a mob just because of some silly "principle," you might want to start considering whether you're a fit devotee of the High Church of Redemptive Violence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. No I am not

:hi:

[white_wolf]

17. I've been excommunicated and declared anathema.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Somehow this comes to mind

REM loosing my religion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bKTqvWIo-c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Coyote_Bandit]

19. Thank you!

[slipslidingaway]

21. "It's not about the monster...it's about the rest of us not becoming those monsters."

:thumbsup:

Thanks.

[joshcryer]

30. I've yet to encounter anyone advocating vigilante justice, to be honest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. He got what he deserved

And other words to that effect are exactly that...and plenty of those posts to be ignored.

A variant is good, he killed MURICANS at Lockerbie. (One reason an actual trial was needed). Of course them forget four service members and the French plane...or the horrors we have carried out in the name of freedom. But if you have not seen those posts...we are readying a different site. Given the number of posts it is possible.

[Lucinda]

45. Neither would I. For the reasons you stated, and because we lost the opportunity

to find out the truth about a lot of things that have happened the past few decades.

On a side note, it's interesting to me to see posts in pro-Quadaffi forums questioning if it was actually Q who was killed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Well that is par...and I an sure we will have sightings

For years to come. Perhaps he and Elvis can play at the coliseum?

:-)

[pinboy3niner]

48. Now you've gone and done it

You've inspired legions of black velvet painters everywhere! :rofl:

[Lucinda]

49. :)

It is inevitable.