29 year old 99%er: "I will NEVER be out of debt"

[kpete]

transcript:
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2011/10/22/we-are-the-99-percent-photo-of-the-day-6/

[FBaggins]

1. Not sure what she means by "played by the rules and succeeded"

Nor am I sure what she would propose as a solution.

Looks like the largest contribution to her debt is a top 5 law school for which she received a full scholarship. Are there proposals out there that would provide her with free room and board as well as free tuition?

If she's smart enough to get accepted to a top 5 law school then she should be able to do basic arithmetic. If the job you're shooting for pays too little to support the debt you know you'll take on to get the degree... what's the point?

Do some of the "rules" say that you can't work while you're in college? Or that you can't work to pay off the initial debt before you attempt law school?

"We need to make that future ourselves and make it now."

An ironic statement... and so true.

[UpInArms]

4. Frodo? Is that you?

[FBaggins]

8. Have we not had this conversation before?

Yes, that's what the "F" stands for.

No... the ring is gone. I can't help with the election other than with my vote and hard work. :)

[MattBaggins]

18. Frodo is dead

Trust me I know.

[Fumesucker]

6. For the last few years at least the jobs really haven't been there..

And I think what the person is trying to communicate is that working for benefit of the 1% becomes at some point the only viable option for some people despite their best efforts.

[FBaggins]

7. I agree with most of what you said...

...the problem is the "best efforts".

If you can get a full scholarship to a top 5 school in NY, then you can also get a full scholarship to a top 30 school somewhere that you can actually afford to live. This isn't someone who has been putting forth "best efforts" (though no doubt she did with her education). This is someone who recently woke up to realize that she had been living a life that she couldn't afford. She certaily had "viable options" for years leading up to this point.

She's certainly not alone. Lots and LOTS of people have made similar mistakes. Much of the recent crash was due to millions of people buying homes that they couldn't actualy afford (and idiot banks unwilling to see that truth). Plenty of people took on far too much college debt for degrees that didn't translate to jobs that could support those loans.

I just don't see how that connects to the larger issues... apart from the $20k in medical debt that obviously would be taken care of with a more progressive system.

[Fumesucker]

9. She took advice from people who loved her and had her best interests at heart..

People who presumably were more experienced with wiser and cooler heads.

I suppose that can be seen as foolish but it's a damn sight easier to see it that way in hindsight.

[FBaggins]

10. Sounds right to me.

She got really bad advice.

And yes, hindsight is 20/20. But surely when you go off to college (or at least graduate from undergrad)... you should have some idea of what you're going to do with your life. Her choice appears noble, but the pay isn't classified... nor did the debts all show up on her doorstep on graduation day.

More and more of that debt is "hind" as the years go by.

[Fumesucker]

12. Well, I know that I for one have never made any missteps in life..

If you catch my drift..

[FBaggins]

13. Of course we've all made mistakes.

The question is whether you go on the internet and whine (by implication) that someone else should do something about it?

This isn't an "I screwed up, please help" posting (note that she "played by the rules and succeeded"). It's clearly (by implication) "there's something wrong with a system where I can make these decisions with my life and have these kinds of consequences".

OWS has some legitimate gripes. It's filled with people who work hard as, say, teachers... for decades... and still can't get by. Why lessen with this sort of association?

[Fumesucker]

15. It does seem a little odd that you can play by the rules and succeed..

And yet fail so spectacularly.

Personally I don't think people are ready at eighteen or nineteen to map out the arc of the rest of their lives at least for most of us.

Hell, I'm sixtysomething and haven't yet decided what I want to do when I grow up.

[FBaggins]

24. Yep. Love that.

Some day I'll grow up too.

[cyglet]

14. Right.

Yes, less of the self righteous "should have". You have a few things conflicting here. If she goes to school and works, her grades could suffer. If she doesn't, her debt increases. And that's true wherever she goes to school. She thought it was a better route to sacrifice her debt/credit for her grades. Whether or not that was a good decision is debatable. It's still not unusual for doctors and lawyers to graduate with 6 figure debt loads, scholarships or not.

[a la izquierda]

33. You don't work in graduate school.

I went through 7 years of a PhD. It was well known that if you worked, you lost your funding- no insurance, no tuition, nothing. School is your job. But one does not get paid nearly enough to cover university fees (many universities do not cover those), books, living expenses (I got paid below the poverty level)...if one gets paid at all.
I worked 20 hours a week during my MA, when I lived in CA. I would have been homeless if I didn't take out loans...and I still lived in a shit hole.

Most of us have to make the very choice you suggest, debt or grades. We won't get jobs without the grades. We don't get the grades without the debt. IT's a horrific set of choices to make.

[Leftist Agitator]

55. I have never heard the grad school trap articulated so succinctly.

+1

I'm 29, and have an almost identical amount of debt as the woman in the OP. Granted, I'll shortly have 2 Masters degrees and pretty good prospects of finding a good job, but without those degrees, I would be utterly hopeless and dejected.

Getting ahead in modern America means debt slavery, unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. In which case advanced degrees matter not a whit.

[a la izquierda]

59. I graduated in May with a PhD in history.

Luckily I got a job (though unfortunately not tenure track). I also graduated with $100K in debt. It'll get paid- because I now know I can never afford to have children. My biggest problem is that we enslave ourselves with debt, pay our taxes, and millionaires get the tax cuts. My uncle's tax cut-in one year- could pay 3/4 of my loan (he's a liberal and this as an example of what's so very wrong with the system).

Thanks for your post. And good luck.

[Leftist Agitator]

75. Congratulations, Dr.

:)

I actually racked up a significant portion of that debt pursuing a Masters in history. By the time I realized that landing a decent job (i.e. tenure track) was akin to winning the lottery, I had already spent three years and thousands of dollars chasing my dream.

The reason I was in an MA program for three years is because I chose to work while going to grad school, in order to lessen the burden concomitant to borrowing. I had a full tuition waver my last year in the program. Didn't make any difference, I still incurred tens of thousands in debt just paying tuition.

I went back to get an MBA, which I completed, and I was offered a full ride for an MS in Industrial and Labor Relations.

So I should be OK when all is said and done, but anyone who thanks that an advanced degree can be attained without accruing a significant amount of debt is either wealthy, naive, disingenuous, or just an asshole.

And yet, despite my situation, I am fully cognizant of the fact that the meager wages offered to those without such credentials are utterly appalling. In today's United States, your choices are, by and large, to work for a maximum wage of perhaps $15 / hour, $20 / hour at absolute best, or incur an insane amount of debt in the quest to carve out a decent life for yourself.

Thank you kindly, 1%...

P.S. I actually wrote about 1/2 of my would-have-been thesis. Food rationing in the UK during WWII. PM me if you'd be interested in perusing it some time.

[Bill McBlueState]

60. wow, you'd lose your funding for a second job?

When I was in grad school, Article 25 of our collective bargaining agreement said, "No graduate student employee shall be denied the right to work at a job not covered by this Agreement..."

More grad employees need unions.

[Yupster]

65. I got my master's as a part time student

Worked full time all the way through it. That was over 20 years ago though.

[alarimer]

68. I did too.

It took me 7 years to do it though and it would not have been possible without the advent of distance learning, which I celebrate as a great, great thing.

For students, I think it is important to realize that you do not NEED to go to an "elite" school and put yourself hugely in debt as a result. I think for too many there is this idea that only the elite schools are any good, when that is simply not true. I think it is important for all students to shop around and get the best possible deal for themselves. And we need to give up this idea that where you go to school matters. It really doesn't. You get out of it what you put into it.

[a la izquierda]

79. I didn't go to elite schools.

Three state schools for me. One in a state with a governor notorious for not giving a hoot about higher ed, thus allowing tuition to skyrocket. Another in a state in which it is very expensive to live. And finally, one in a state in which grad students pay exorbitant fees, housing is expensive near campus, etc.

And by the way, you should see what I dealt with last year. One university told applicants they would not be considered for tenure-track positions if they didn't come from Ivy Leagues or Pseudo-Ivies (Stanford et al). I worked my ass off for my PhD. We'll see if it pays off.

[a la izquierda]

67. I went to school in Oklahoma...

if we unionized, we lost everything (though not the right to have to pay for our own education). Oklahoma is a right (not) to work state. You can be fired for pretty much any reason, with no warning.

It's an unspoken agreement in many universities. You don't work. I waitressed for about a month until my adviser found out and politely told me to quit the job (good riddance to a job I hated anyway). A friend worked in the library for the summer and when she didn't leave come fall term, her funding was cut (these are not necessarily departmental decisions, either). In the liberal arts, you get little funding and loads of debt.

[reggie the dog]

29. so only the rich should be able to go to "good schools"???

[Raster]

31. unfortunately, that is the underlying message.

[FBaggins]

41. A school has to cost enough to bankrupt you to be "good"?

How does that make sense? There are plenty of excellent institutions where the cost of living isn't what it is on the Hudson just a few blocks from Central Park.

Of course you made two errors in one statement. Can we also say "so only the rich should live in mansions?" or "So only the rich should drive Ferraris?"

[reggie the dog]

49. i am not the one who make the amalgam in the usa

in which "good" schools cost a shitload, i went to state school because that is what my family was able to pay for but why should cost limit us? she had her tuition paid for my scholarship at any rate, she should have been able to get housing and living vouchers

[FBaggins]

54. The point was that there are very good schools that don't cost as much as others.

You're correct that tuition isn't an issue here...but I've said that a couple times. The cost issue here is living in one of the highest cost-of-living cities in the world.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[Sanity Claws]

81. She enrolled in school when the economy was still healthy

The employment opportunities for graduates of Ivy League law schools are much greater than for graduates of state law schools.
I don't fault her for the choices she made. At the time she made them, with the information she had, I probably would have made the same choices.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Those were apparently the wrong rules.

Her main financial problem was a medical crisis which could happen to anyone. But when you take on massive debt to get a top drawer education, you are implicitly accepting the responsibility of putting that education to work in a way that allows you to pay it back.

You can do pro-bono work as a public defender with a degree from your hometown college.

[Mimosa]

21. First reply attacks a student. This is the new Democratic Underground.

FBaggins obviously doesn't know European students don't have to carry years of dept to finance their educations.

American right wingers resent the idea of higher education being easily accessible.

On right wing boards the posters imagine people can put themselves through universities while working at McDonalds.

[FBaggins]

25. European students get free room an board?

That's news to me.

She didn't carry years of debt to finance her education... that was paid for (presumably earned).

She carries years of debt so that she could live where and how she wanted while she was getting that education.

I'm not attacking a student... I'm replying to an attack on the millions of us who were students in decades past who didn't make the same mistakes.

[reggie the dog]

30. here in France university students get govt. housing vouchers

that more than cover the costs of dorms/getting a room mate in a private residence and leave them with some money for food.... plus vouchers for food.....


the other poster knows that things like this exist in europe but they are spreading disinformation acting like it would be impossible to pay for room and board for university students, hell even poor cuba has managed to do just that.

[MedicalAdmin]

35. The other poster also blamed the mortgage crisis on those

Scammed and lied to by the banks and their supposed professional licensed representatives. The other poster is a tool'who likes to blame victims. It's a variation of I got mine, fuck you.

[reggie the dog]

36. hmmm

tool, or hired gun?

[MedicalAdmin]

37. I didn't want to mention that possibility.....

So thanks for that.

Although it is probably more likely that he is uncompensated, and rather just of another opinion.

[FBaggins]

44. Poor reading comprehension on your part?

Or just sour grapes?

The fact that there are crooks and thieves in some institutions does not mean that individuals didn't make boneheaded mistakes.

If you bought a home that's twice what you could afford because you could get an option arm that made the payments "affordable" for six months... then yeah, some bank made a stupid decision... but so did you.

[MedicalAdmin]

72. Neither. My mortgage is about 15% of our income, net.

But I realize that most of this was caused by the banks. You can attempt to hold up a few examples of what you claim all the while ignoring licensed professional responsibilities which override any responsibility of those without a license . Beyond robosigning, beyondfeasance, beyond fraud, beyond not even offering fixed rate mortgages when required by law and license, beyond bundling of crap subprimes and selling them as AAA, there are some people who overpurchased.

Do you not see a disproportionate amount of blame being placed on those who have a disproportionately small proportion of the responsibility? By people just like you. You either don't understand, or you are willfully misrepresenting the case. Which is it?

My reading comprehension is fine. How is your ability to synthesize information?

[FBaggins]

42. They cap out at 450euros a month, right?

Can you live in downtown Paris for 450/month?

I'm pretty sure that a 1BR in a location comparable to Columbia's campus is around twice that.

[reggie the dog]

48. you can get a place with 2 rooms to sleep for 900 a month in paris

or dorms for that

i had a studio with my wife for 500 a month there

[MADem]

23. You know, I am appalled at the cost of tuition at some schools nowadays.

But when I think back to the days when the minimum wage, which I was making, wouldn't buy you a small coffee at a Starbucks, those tuitions were pretty daunting, too. I worked through college (hard, too) and doubled up in the summertime serving tourists in a resort area, and saved every frigging dime I could. I wore the same crappy clothes for years, didn't splurge on the latest stuff, and either made do, or did without. I walked a lot. Biked too--didn't own a car, too expensive. I also took semesters off when I couldn't afford the tuition and worked full time until I had the money to pay. I applied for schmaltzy "one off" scholarships and was glad to get 'em, too. I never bought new books, always used, and if it was a book that hadn't been used before, I'd borrow it from a friend on the weekend and read it cover to cover to save the expense.

I never had what passes for "necessary" expenses these days because that stuff wasn't invented! I can't believe what kids say they need at a minimum, like a spare netbook on top of the laptop, car, a high-end mobile phones, an X Box, a flat screen TV, etc., etc. I had a record player, a tape player and a transistor radio. No TV. That was my entertainment. I went to the library a lot. Free books!

Nowadays, though, kids who don't have those gadgets feel deprived because all their friends have those things. In some schools, the computers/phones are REQUIRED gear. It's just a different world.

I was in my later thirties before I wrote that last education loan check (and I wrote a check every month, they didn't have "direct debit" of your account back then) and boy oh boy, it felt good. By then, I could afford a TV and a nice stereo, and a car--I was living large, relatively speaking.

I do agree that the expenses are crushing, but it's also a good idea to cinch the belt whereever possible. I don't think some kids have been raised to economize and defer gratification in many cases. They'll learn, though. It's a hard lesson.

[FBaggins]

26. I agree re: the cost of tuition. But read her screed again.

Tuition wasn't the problem.

The rest of your posts reads right to me. Her complaint does draw attention to a cultural issue. Too many people expect too high a standard of learning too early... and too easily accept too much debt in the process... without thought of what that debt means.

[MADem]

53. I was a bit confused about her medical bills, there.

You know, the one thing I did carry, RELIGIOUSLY (in a manner of speaking), even if I couldn't afford to carry a full courseload, was college health insurance. It wasn't free, certainly, but it was cheaper by a great deal than "ordinary" health insurance. I honestly don't know what the deal is with university health plans nowadays, but if I had a medical problem, the insurance I had would have paid for the vast majority of it.

I've always thought that kids in classes from K-12 ought to take classes in "Money." They need to appreciate how much things cost, how to figure interest, and understand that the "easy payment plan" isn't all that easy if you're paying for something for the rest of your life. They need to learn how to save, how to keep track of payments, and how to exercise discipline now for benefit down the road. Delayed gratification is just a foreign concept to way too many. Many parents of kids these days could use the course as well--so it's hard to blame the kids for behaving like the adults in their lives do.

[reggie the dog]

28. well, yes, free room and board and tuition are offered at universities

in coutries like Cuba and i think in Finland too. It would be money well spent on the futures of our countries.

the point of her job is to be a top noch lawyer but work for say poor people, or work preparing lawsuits for something like greenpeace etc.

why wait several years before going to law school? seriously education should be free up to, hell beyond PHD's. Room and board too. the solution is easy, end free trade, lower military spending and increase taxes on the wealthy.

[dkf]

2. Doctors, lawyers, dentists tops in fed jobs that pay $180K-plus

As Congress eyes the federal payroll for budget cuts, do you know who the nation's highest-paid federal workers are?

Department of Veterans Affairs doctors, Securities and Exchange Commission lawyers and National Institutes of Health physicians represent the most numerous groups among at least 17,828 federal employees whose annualized salaries totaled $180,000 or more in September 2010.

The high-salaried occupations emerged from a USA TODAY analysis of Office of Personnel Management federal workforce data that also found:

•While the highest-salary earners accounted for less than 1% of the 2.1 million federal workers in the data, their ranks soared from the 805 with annualized salaries of $180,000 or more in 2005. Nearly 90% held "excepted service" jobs, meaning they worked at agencies that set their own qualification requirements and aren't subject to the appointment, pay and classification regulations that apply to other civil service posts.

•Doctors held roughly eight out of 10 of the top-salaried jobs. Attorneys accounted for nearly 6%, followed by dentists, with almost 3%, and financial institution examiners, with nearly 2%.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-05-02-highest-paid-federal-workers_n.htm

Sad thing is this person is in one of the top paid professions in this country. If they are complaining about a $120,000 debt what does that mean for the rest of us?

[abelenkpe]

5. They don't all make that kind of salary

My sil is a lawyer for the state and makes less than I do. But she's happy, jobs that benefit the people should pay more in an ideal society.

[Coyote_Bandit]

11. And

I know a lawyer that works the cosmetics counter at Dillards and another that drives a UPS truck and another that opted to go back to school because they cannot find other jobs. I know several that have taken on significant debt to start their own practice becase they could not find jobs. And this past winter we had a homeless attorney die a tragic and needless death here.

There are a lot of starving lawyers. They are not the stuff of fairy tales. And if you think all lawyers are rolling in $$$ then you have been watching too much tv.

The state bar association here does a regular survbey of its members. Some of the more consistent findings: The average male attorney earns half of what the average non-specialized general medical practicioner earns. The average female attorney earns half of what the average male attorney earns. That means that a customer service rep working in a call center here likely earns more than an entry level female attorney here.

[dkf]

47. This one works for the people...that's a government job.

So I dare say it's at least a professional position, not a sales clerk or waitress.

[Coyote_Bandit]

51. So.................?

Lawyers that work for the government are supposed to earn more than those who work in the private sector? Or maybe less?

This young woman may not have had a realistic understanding of her professional options when she decided to take those loans and get that degree. Life requires most of us to make decisions when we are young that we may not be fully prepared to make - or cognizant of their consequences. Certainly, by virtue of her education and training she has opportunities that many will never have. But that does not make her part of the problem on Wall Street - nor does it exempt her from being victimized by the banksters. I would suggest that instead of complaining that she hasn't passed some litmus test and suffered enough to warrant protest that we welcome her to join the protest against the Wall Street banksters. To me it seems at least a bit self-destructive if not at least a bit sanctimonious to reject her complaints.

There are a lot of lawyers who cannot find work in their profession. And there are also a number who cannot secure financing to start their own little law practice - and successfully doing so assumes that they have somewhere along the way acquired some of the practical skills that simply are not taught in law school. A lot of folks graduate from law school and pass the bar exam without ever acquiring those skills. There is certainly more than a grain of truth to the adage that an experienced paralegal is worth far more than a newly minted lawyer.

Having a legal education used to be valued in the business world. If one chose not to work in the legal profession they could often find a wide variety of other employment opportunities. But that is no longer true. Many employers do not think a legal education is sufficiently specialized to warrant employment in business administration. Or else they think they will be hiring someone who will be contentious and litigious. It is a common misperception. I've even known lawyers that were denied health insurance because they had a law license. Seems the insurer as a matter of policy did not issue individual policies to lawyers.

There is another rather common misperception - that being that someone with a professional degree and credentials has their pick of jobs and earns a lot of money. Perhaps that used to be largely true - though even then I'm sure there were at least a few exceptions. It is certainly not true in the legal profession today and hasn't been for quite some time. While it doesn't get a lot of press even legal jobs are being outsourced to fricking India.

Law schools are traditionally a profit center for universitites. They typically charge tuition rates that rival those of medical achool. But law school does not carry the lab expenses or the clinical superivison and experience of medical school. The largest expense is maintaining a library. Our law schools have raked in tuition dollars and trained far more young lawyers than needed. I live in a metropolitan area of about a 500,000 people and there are 5,000 residents here with an active license to practice law. That is 1 lawyer for every 1,000 people. The needs of the population simply canot support that many lawyers. Yet that ratio of population to lawyers is quite common in our nation.

Young lawyers have many reasons to protest the Wall Street banksters:
(1) Most undertake significant debt that impacts them for decades. Some significantly increase their earnigs because of their training but many do not earn significantly more than they would had they chosen to forego that legal training.
(2) Most attend schools that are focused on their own financial success rather than that of their students. Schools do not offer adequate practical training and they graduate far more students than the workplace and the general population can accomodate and support.
(3) There is a sterotype that says that lawyers lack the specialized skills to work in business administration. Or else they are too contentious and litigious. Or else they are just outright failures because they couldn't hang out their own shingle and make it in private practice (never mind they had school loans, couldn't find a job, didn't have much experience and couldn't get financing to even consider opening that office).
(4) Legal work is being outsourced.

[reggie the dog]

32. 220,000 in debt

i am lucky as hell, my mechanic father managed to pay for 5 years for me and 5 for my sister at UIC in chicago, (of course grandpa won the lotto too)

i lived at home so they paid for my food and roof that way and gave me money to pay for parking at the el station and the el to get to school downtown and back every day

they paid for my books

i worked part time to pay insurance and gas and for a pickup truck and vacations

they offered 5 years of tuition thinking we may need that much for a BA, but i started a Master's and gave them the bill, mom was shocked but said "i did agree to pay 5 years, are you sure you are not doing this because you dont want to work???" to which i replied, i do work, 20 hours a week parking cars friday and sat night and sunday for brunches. plus grad school is a lot of work....


i paid for my 6th year of school (my last year of grad school) as per the 5 yr agreement, and they my parents gave me the cost back as my graduation present and then some.

WHY??? BECAUSE I AM FUCKING LUCKY AS HELL TO BE BORN THE GRANDSON OF SOMEONE WHO WON 2 MILLION IN THE LOTTO AND INVESTED IN THEIR OWN COMPANY WHO HAS PASSED MONEY ON TO HIS OWN KIDS SO THAT MY MOM AND DADS RETIREMENT FUND IS NICELY PADDED SO THEY HAD THE MONEY TO SEND ME TO SCHOOL!

Not everyone can win the lotto and people without rich family memebers deserve to do just like i have done, get a Master's debt free.

[Name removed]

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[southmost]

17. if your mind is not for rent

then you will not succeed

big corporations want us to pursue their bidding before we can follow our dreams....

as for higher education, its become caveat emptor

[customerserviceguy]

19. Too bad this individual went into so much debt

to get training in a career that does nothing to create anything, only transfer money around.

[FBaggins]

27. I don't have any problem with her chosen career.

The practice of law in service to society is necessary and noble.

You just don't have to go to Columbia to become one.

[customerserviceguy]

39. Other than facilitating transactions

what do lawyers really produce?

[FBaggins]

40. Justice.

Did you miss that she wasn't interested in being a corporate lawyer?

[customerserviceguy]

43. You mean the kind of justice

where people who file malpractice suits have to wait years and years for some certainty, all the while figuring out how to pay for their own treatment for what happened to them, that makes tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for law firms and professional witnesses, and ends with a gag order in the settlement protecting the faulty doctor or hospital? And that's just in the cases where the doctor or hospital was actually at fault.

I stopped equating lawyers with delivering justice a long time ago.

[FBaggins]

45. No.

I mean that kind where someone sticks up for the little guy. For victims one one kind of abuse or another.

Sure, sometimes the system doesn't work and/or it takes too long. But that doesn't mean that the lawyer (as presumably the lady above) who foregoes the six-figure income to represent them is a bad person.

[TBF]

46. If you want to make any money you go to a top school.

My husband did the same thing she did, with one exception, went to a top firm after graduating. It's the only way to pay off the loans. And to get the type of job that pays enough to pay off the loans you have to be top of your class at a top school.

Many schools have law/business schools that are money-makers for the schools but aren't doing their graduates any favors. And the poster is right about never being out of debt - you won't pay off $100K+ of student loans making 40K a year.

[FBaggins]

52. And the logical corollary? n/t

[TBF]

63. If you don't understand the comment there's not much I can do to make it clearer.

No she didn't have to go to Columbia, but most law schools are expensive and she'd be in the same debt-filled boat when she graduates. By choosing a highly-ranked school she at least has a shot at getting a job when she gets out.

[FBaggins]

71. If the question confused you...

...why dodge by pretending that others are having the problem?

The logical corollary is that if you DON'T want a high-paying job (and she makes clear that she doesn't), the maybe you shouldn't go to the expensive school.

but most law schools are expensive and she'd be in the same debt-filled boat when she graduates.

Nope. Did you miss that she had a full scholarship?

Tuition isn't an issue in her case... it's entirely the cost of living for NYC. She could have attended a law school in a MUCH cheaper location.

[TBF]

74. The schools in "cheaper" locations may not have offered her a scholarship -

she didn't say whether it was a school-specific scholarship. Try some reading comprehension.

[JI7]

57. but she didn't want to "make money" as she says with not wanting to work for corporations

that's why i said i wouldn't have a problem with her if she did do it for a while just to pay off the debts. and then move on to something she may enjoy more but pays less.

[TBF]

62. And I don't blame her a bit -

not criticizing her at all. My comment was to provide insight as to what it is like when you graduate from law school in this country ... and for us this was several years ago. Right now I wouldn't want to be coming out of most schools - what a disaster.

I'd love to see a system that places more emphasis on community colleges, trades, etc... - that are public and free. But once again it all goes back to capitalism. We are reaping what we sow here ...

[Yupster]

66. That was my first thought too

Get a job to make some money for a few years.

Then once you're out of debt you can become more noble.

If you're going to go into debt to get a job that pays real well, then get paid real well.

[riderinthestorm]

61. My nephew just graduated from Harvard Law, near the top of his class and got 1 job offer

That's right. One. From the firm he interned at last year - the only internship he was able to get after trying desperately to get internships the other summers. He's reasonably attractive, articulate, easygoing guy. Graduated from UC Berkeley as an undergrad and worked a few years before he applied to Harvard so he knew how to interview and land a job.

There's a reason that many newly minted law grads are suing their law schools for fraud. The schools are fraudulently advertising hiring stats that aren't realistic or provable. The grads end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and no way to pay it back.

[TBF]

64. I agree -

my husband graduated several years ago from a top ten school (top 5 in his class & his undergrad was Ivy) and had several firms interested in the geographic areas we were interested in. He narrowed it to two firms and then one after the internships. Those days are likely gone even for top grads.

[riderinthestorm]

69. It's who you know as well. Our family isn't "connected".

We're just intelligent and my nephew got where he is the old fashioned way - blew his way into the top schools with perfect scores and grades, reasonable extra curriculars and a great personality.

But that doesn't help you land a job anymore in this economy. Honestly now, I believe a lot of it is who you know - especially at the top.

And sometimes even that's not enough. You could have started studying for a degree in a field that's a "sure thing" four years ago, only to have come out in this economy with thousands of dollars in debt and no way to get a job. My oldest girl is in this boat - graduated Ivy League undergrad in 3 years, did her masters in a year at the top archaeology school in her field in the UK. Archaeology is/was usually one of those fields like engineering that EVERYONE landed good jobs after graduating but since so much of it's tied to construction in Europe (virtually all the countries have laws that mandate an archaeological survey before construction), and construction is nil, she can't find a job in her field.

Works at a used book shop and struggles to pay her bills while she throws out resumes in a desperate hope of getting a job at a museum anywhere in the country as an artifacts expert. But since she focused mainly on field archaeology and less on museum studies its tough. She could go back and get another masters or PhD in museum studies and get more debt but who knows if that will land her a career anywhere in 3-4 years....

Teachers, med techs, paralegals - boy I could go on and on about career fields that have changed dramatically over the past 4 years....

[TBF]

73. Yup -

we were in the same boat, which is why I know about the loans. Also very grateful I'm not a litigation paralegal anymore. I loved my work but I'm sure it's mostly outsourced by now. I'm home with my children right now. I'd love to go back to work but we can live on his salary, so it's more likely I'll just volunteer.

It's really sad to watch this in a country, that at least in the past 1/2 century, had a decent standard of living for many. Now we are going back to the pre-Eisenhower days and it's not pretty.

[JI7]

58. there are many different lawyers, family, business, criminal etc

if you want to start a business you might have a lawyer get involved if it will involve more than 1 person .

family lawyers for Wills, Custody , who you want to make decisions regarding medical care if you are unable to.

[Liberal_in_LA]

20. k&r

[JCMach1]

22. Maybe we should all become Libertarians and bail outselves out by not paying anything...

Want a bloodless revolution, bankrupt the money-lenders.

That's the quickest way to do it!

Only partial :sarcasm:

[Fla_Democrat]

34. Denny Crane

Denny Crane






Denny Crane






Denny Crane






:smoke: :toast: :smoke:

[Starry Messenger]

38. k&r

[femrap]

50. this is just like the

sub-prime asset bubble...student loans are not going to paid back. However, there is a big difference between housing bubble and student loans....STUDENT LOANS CAN NOT BE WRITTEN OFF WHEN DECLARING BANKRUPTCY....and you can thank Biden for that when he was in the Senate.

What are they going to bring back? Debtors' Prisons????

Student Loans are larger than the amount of Consumer Credit Card Debt!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shit, every time I turn on my computer, there is a fucking ad to 'Get a Grant and go back to School.' I applied for a job online and within an hour or so, I got a message to call this toll-free number. I did. The one question the dude asked me was, "Are you planning to continue your education?" I thought WTF! I responded, "Don't you think a Masters Degree is enough? I can't say I want a Phd." He said, 'Thank you' and hung up.

Education has become a Racket.

[JI7]

56. i wouldn't blame her for taking a corporate job to pay off the debt

once she does that she can go back to something she enjoys more but might pay less.

[taught_me_patience]

70. 120k is not that much and a lawyer from a top 5 school can easily get out of it

seriously... this is really not a way to garner much sympathy.

[TBF]

76. A lot of folks are missing the point in this thread ...

what have we done to our country that folks are SO far in debt when they graduate, with few jobs to go to??

Yes we can argue the merits of each individual case, but the fact is that we need to think about this economic system in a serious way. Does it really make sense to prop up a system in which the top 1% own and control 40% of the wealth in the country? Crumbs at most for everyone else ...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

82. I agree with most of what you say.....however....

...this 99%'er seems to be implying they could get a good job if they wanted to, but chooses not to as some sort of statement. That's playing a martyr role.

Go work for "the man", pay off your debt, then go and be the public defender afterwards.

[Shagbark Hickory]

77. Fair point. Most people owe more on their mortgages and don't have a law degree to show for it, nt

[minavasht]

80. Except for he tumor

all the rest was her choice.
What did she expect - spend 100k on education and then repay it with a 30k a year job?

[TBF]

83. Are these the types of "choices" we should be saddling our young folks with?

If they want to have a chance at a decent job they go into debt 100K+ and then hope the job is there? There are better ways to do this.