A plea to DUers regarding al-Awlaki's son

[whatchamacallit]

I've seen some stunningly callous comments made here about the fate of al-Awlaki's 16 year old son. Most of these comments are variations of "He had it coming for being stupid enough to be in Yemen with his terrorist dad...". I want to share an experience and a father's perspective.

There's a restaurant/bar I like to frequent here in LA that often has live music after dinner service. Occasionally, they do an open mic thing where solo acts perform a few songs. One night while sitting at the bar chatting with friends, I notice an older guy, guitar case in hand, shuffling to the stage. In tow is a boy, 13 or 14 years old, also carrying some musical gear. A couple of things are immediately apparent; the boy is the man's son, and he's really excited to be there helping. He follows his dad like a dutiful puppy, and has a look of admiration in his eyes. The other thing that's apparent is that his old man is shit faced. I mean barely-able-to-function drunk.

A strange emotion overtook me, as what I was watching was simultaneously touching and sad. Kids still really love their dads at that age. It made me think of my own son and how he'd probably follow me to the ends of the earth if I want him to...

Whatever your position on the war on terror, please show some respect for the innocent victims of our conflicts.

[RagAss]

1. Good post.

[lunatica]

2. What a wonderful story

I hope the callous remarks were by only a few thoughtless people who have no children of their own.

[TheKentuckian]

5. I bet having kids has nothing to do with it.

[Donnachaidh]

49. umm, having children does NOT necessarily endow one with empathy for kids

All it shows is the fact that your reproductive organs are working. :shrug:

I've seen some damned callous and evil parents in the course of my lifetime.

[Odin2005]

64. I have no kids and I am furious at those callous posters!

[Control-Z]

106. Unfortunately, thoughtless, callous people

often procreate. And the children suffer.

[Mimosa]

122. I have no child now living and I've found the callous comments regarding a child's death disgusting.

[Turbineguy]

3. Thanks for some better insight.

[Kurovski]

4. K&R. (nt)

[Cid_B]

6. and...?

All the more reason the father is an asshole (a thankfully dead one) for bringing his son there...

[uberblonde]

8. So at what point...

Do you blame the father for the U.S. identifying the kid as a 21-year-old terrorist?

[Tx4obama]

17. The kid was not the main target of the drone, target was the TERRORISTS he was hanging out with n/t

[Cid_B]

19. Sshhh...

Don't you know any better?

Once we have a confirmed genetic scan of a given "terrorist/misunderstood soul" we have to land a special ops team, with the written pre-approval of the given country of course, and assure that only that particular "t/ms" is in the vicinity.

At that point the drone will be launched and everyone in America will get an option to vote via Facebook. If yes then we'll launch... Otherwise... bad things could happen...

[Angry Dragon]

50. .............

:thumbsdown:

[AtheistCrusader]

89. We could have apprehended them with little incident.

Pretty obvious from the location and manner in which they were taken.

[Cid_B]

93. By all means...

Flesh that out... tell me what you base it on (experience, source on the ground)

[sabrina 1]

125. How about telling us why anyone would have

been apprehending an American teenager who had a clean record in the first place? I mean there were no charges against him as far as we know, and no one will say, IF there were, what they were.

Doesn't it bother you a bit that our Constitution appears to have changed so completely that it's hardly recognizable any more?

[Cid_B]

126. I am extremely comfortable...

... with dropping a hellfire on IDed terrorists.

The best way to not have one delivered to you is to not associate with them. Easy...

I'm still looking forward to the explanation of how they could have been "easily apprehended."

[sabrina 1]

140. You have avoided the question.

We can call anyone a terrorist, well, correction, the President now has claimed the right, as Bush did, to call anyone a terrorist, you, me, anyone. But that is not acceptable anywhere other than a monarchy or a dictatorship. So, we are asking, show the evidence, the charges or we do not believe you.

It's not a difficult question. One would assume that if, as you appear to believe, we can trust our politicians so implicitly never to abuse their powers, then the evidence must be available.

Fantasizing that everyone is a terrorist once one of our bombs hits them might be fun, but it still doesn't address the questions that will not go away.

You might be interested to know btw, that people have been collecting evidence on the sites of drone attacks, and have found that many of the victims of those attacks were babies, toddlers, of course there wasn't much left of them, but documented evidence now contradicts the claims that they were 'terrorists'. The number of actual terrorists out of the hundreds of victims so far, appears to be a very small % of those slaughtered by drones. A museum is being prepared to remember those victims in England. Unless you are going to claim that babies and toddlers should have known better, a position that will never be accepted by any sane person, why were they killed?

No point in responding with the same rhetoric, talking point or whatever, that 'if you don't want to be killed, don't live in your own country'. We are asking a simple question, what evidence is there and where are the charges? If you can't answer, then just say so.

[chervilant]

166. How's this for pathetic?

I told that poor person he/she got relegated to my ignore list, and I still get responses to my posts, as though I can read them, or care to...

[Luminous Animal]

28. Evidence? Oh, that's right. We, in this democracy, are not allowed to see any

stinkin' evidence. Our betters are judge jury and executioner and we must do our duty and silently acquiesce.

[JoeyT]

45. You're not supposed to question the president

during a time of war.

We'd already recycled all the other decade old Republican talking points to scream at anyone to the left of Nixon, it was high time we got around to that one.

[Exilednight]

113. Please post a link proving your claim. Every story I have seen states that the WH is neither

confirming nor denying that the kid was the target. If you can post a link showing that the president said otherwise, then please post it.

Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation.

[chervilant]

133. hmm...

The 'TERRORISTS' he was "hanging out with"? Do you think 16 YOs can easily exercise the option of leaving their parents and striking out on their own, particularly in such a challenging socio-cultural environment like Libya?

I am deeply disturbed by the increasingly common lack of compassion among 'democratic' people...

[Cid_B]

155. Dunno...

Maybe just his bad luck...

Either way...

[chill_wind]

12. What exactly is it that the dead kid did, again?

[Luminous Animal]

30. We are not allowed to know. We must simply accept that Good Responsible Brave

Leaders did this to keep us from safe from the Muslim hordes that plotting to kill us in our sleep.

[alarimer]

153. What Obama did was illegal and immoral and should be tried for it.

Extra-judicial murder is wrong, no matter how bad the target. It makes us no better than Saddam Hussein any other dictator. Fuck Obama and his supporters on this. You are all disgusting, despicable human beings, no better than the guy they killed.

[chill_wind]

7. Good post. You have to wonder what the threshold is for some , really.

What would it actually take to trigger their gag reflexes?

A son that was 12 year old? 9 years old? What?

[KoKo]

11. and...mainstream media didn't really report on it. If they did they just said "son" killed and not

his age. It wasn't till the Blogosphere and others checked it out (creds) that we know his age.

Even then ...it's all gone down the memory hole because there's no one with influence to ask the questions about why this young boy had to be killed as "collateral damage."

[chill_wind]

14. You don't hear the DOD embedded media crowing about this one.

I'm sure they would love for this to go away.

[Tx4obama]

158. That's not true.

Many of the top media articles had the age incorrectly listed as 21 years old (even The AP) when the story first broke.
I saw at least a dozen articles that had the age listed as 21.
I believe that was due to the fact that that was was the info coming out of Yemen at the time in a statement by some official over there.

And no one was talking about him being 16 until 'family members' came out and 'said' he age was 16.
But they also said there was a BBQ - and there wasn't.

Also, al-Awlaki has FIVE children - what are ALL of their ages?

Until there is an OFFICIAL statement on who has died and now old they were, no one really knows the truth.

[ZombieHorde]

108. Lots of people support our use of nukes during WWII, so I don't think the threshold exists for many.

For many, killing bad guys trumps not killing the innocent.

[sabrina 1]

9. People like you make it worthwhile to read DU. Thank you for

your decency. It has been sorely lacking lately on this board lately causing many people to question their affiliation with the Democratic Party, myself included, assuming that those who have been posting those comments are representative of the Democratic Party.

[whatchamacallit]

16. Thanks Sabrina :)

Means a lot coming for you

[sabrina 1]

42. You're welcome, your post was very much needed today.

:-)

[chervilant]

131. Indeed...

Assuming, actually, that those who have been posting such vile comments are representative of the human race.

[malaise]

10. Excellent post

Rec

[Kali]

13. there are a lot of callous assholes here

and in the world at large

kandr

[napoleon_in_rags]

15. I hear you, but you don't need a "plea" for this cause.

Really, there are only two kinds of people in this world: Lions, who take on a prey much larger than themselves and bring it down, and jackals, who prey on what's weak, dying, or already dead, then sit around giggling about how courageous they are. Whenever you hear people being cruel to a child in these situations, or somebody who painted up some dimwit as a threat to the free world in order to bring him down, those are jackals. Any "plea" to them will be considered as a sign of weakness, and they will move in looking for the free meal. But ROAR at them, and see how fast they go scurrying, tail between their legs. There is no reason to have ANY respect for this kind of person.

[sabrina 1]

18. Good post, and having looked around the internet and talked

with many people, I realize that what we have seen here in the past few days, is a small minority. The international community has condemned what is going on in Libya and the drone killings of American citizens, particularly that teenager, by a vast majority. But DU appears to have attracted a disproportionate amount of that minority lately. It is very bad for the Dem Party to have that kind of representation. Yesterday I was ready to quit this party as what I saw here was worse than anything I have seen on rightwing boards during the Bush administration. Which is why I was not a Republican.

You are right about trying to reason with them. I do NOT have any respect for those people but I keep hoping that they can be reached, that no one could be that bad. :-)

[tabatha]

20. "that no one could be that bad. "

No, but the whole of Libya is bad in your book.

I have tried to explain that nobody supports bad behavior - even Libyans who did not support Gaddafi thought that his death was not good. PM Jibril had hoped that Gaddafi would be captured alive so he could ask him to his face why he treated Libyans so badly.

Yet, you will condemn a whole population because of the acts of a few - as I also explained, Mandela was not blamed for the actions of people who necklaced 400 people. The ANC was not blamed for the actions of some in the population who undertook revenge killings, 3000 of them.

But you continue to label people as bad, who had nothing to do with the bad behavior, and the people who support the good people in Libya.

In my eyes, that is really really bad.

You may as well give up on humanity altogether on the basis of the actions of a few, which actions can be used to paint everybody as bad.

For shame.

[sabrina 1]

22. No, the whole of Libya is not bad. The murderers and bigots who

rampaging around the country under the banner of NATO and the NTC, whoever they are, killing and torturing Black Africans which they have been doing since at least last March, and have not yet been stopped despite pleas from the International community, are certainly not my idea of people I would want to be aligned with. Nor to inflict on those people. Do not speak for me, you are clearly new to this concern about dictators. Many of us here have been part of the movement for years, to stop this country's support of Dictators, including Gadaffi.

I will speak for myself, your distortions are laughable to those who actually know me. When I see your passion directed at the whole policy of NATO countries' support for dictators in Africa and the ME and SA then you will have some credibility.

Jibril is a liar and he just got caught lying, again. Trying to deflect blame for the war crime the world witnessed yesterday to an 'accident' when it clearly was no such thing.

Replacing one brutal regime with another backed by the Western Military Machine is NOT what these countries need especially as that War Machine continues to support some of the world's worst dictators with no regard for the millions of people they are harming. And you think they ever cared about the Libyan people. Talk about shame, since you brought it up. I would be ashamed to have supported this on behalf of the Libyan people who deserve better.

You are welcome to your opinions, but you and the couple of others who continue to excuse this disaster, have won no friends with your nasty attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.

[Galraedia]

26. Sabrina....

The USA wasn't the only country involved. And it was the Libyan rebels who killed Gaddafi. As a matter of fact, it was a child who killed the dictator, which doesn't surprise me since Gaddafi killed children. Cruel? Perhaps. However, what kind of torture do you think that they have endured to cause them to act in such a way?

[tabatha]

29. Actually, the nasty attacks have all come from you and others like you.

I have not attacked anyone. I post on the Libyan threads, and then am surprised to find myself being attacked. I try to answer in a fact-filled, thoughtful way, just to be shot down with broad statements that are not true.

"The murderers and bigots who rampaging around the country under the banner of NATO and the NTC, whoever they are, killing and torturing Black Africans which they have been doing since at least last March, and have not yet been stopped despite pleas from the International community"

That is so false I don't know where to begin.

On the threads we have reported multiple times about the situation in Tahuja, or however you spell it.

This situation arose because Gaddafi and men from this town launched attacks on Misrata, murdering, raping and killing innocent citizens of Misrata - slitting their throats in some instances. The Misratans have understandably not wanted those people to live anywhere near Misrata. Yes, the citizens of Misrata NOT THE FF retaliated and took revenge.

As for the situation in Tripoli, the FFs have, unlike Gaddafi, opened up all prisons for anyone to visit. They have released many people to the Red Cross. Where there was torture, those people have been replaced. All of this has been reported on the blogs.

The FF have been fighting Gaddafi forces, and they have tried at every city to negotiate with the town elders before taking over the town. And that was successful in all towns except Sirte. That is NOT "murderers and bigots rampaging around the country". Far from it, that is FFs trying where ever possible for a negotiated outcome.

"You are welcome to your opinions" - then please let us alone
"but you and the couple of others who continue to excuse this disaster" - a vile statement for those of us who have supported the Libyans in their quest for freedom, and have NEVER EVER excused any of this - we have reported it all in full.
"your nasty attacks on anyone who disagrees with you" - sorry, it is we who have been attacked.

All I can do is wish you well - ask you to try to apply some critical thinking - and do not make sweeping generalizations that are false, and do not condemn with no justification or with false statements as you did in your response.

[Amonester]

46. [sarcasm] : it was these citizens of Misrata's fault.

They should have let them slit their throats and thank the 'good' throat slitters for a job well done for $aint Greedyfi.

How dare they revolt VIOLENTLY! They should have sung 'Love, Love, Love' to their throat slitter$ (they were just doing their jobs afterall).



:sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

124. Have you kept up with the information on that story, or would

you prefer to keep 'believing', as someone infamous once said 'the catapulted propaganda'? Unfortunately the Iraq lies and the Libya lies are so similar some people are speculating that they may have used the old playbook they used for Iraq. They did spend millions to 'sell' that war, so you can hardly blame them in these hard times, if they simply recycled the old propaganda.

[EFerrari]

58. sabrina is precisely correct. The reports of the killing and kidnapping of black Africans

in Libya have been confirmed by human rights orgs unlike the rumors about Misrata that you continue to recirculate. sabrina left out rape, which has also been confirmed by HRW and Amnesty.

And where is your evidence that the torture of detainees has stopped in NTC controlled detention facilities?

The world has just seen how these paragons of freedom and democracy handle negotiated outcomes. Poor Libya has just been delivered from the frying pan to the firs.

[sabrina 1]

123. Thank you, and just to add, that just days ago,

Human Rights orgs were pleading with NATO, who is in charge of all of this, to protect the civilians, especially the children who the 'rebels' had trapped in Sirte and had cut off food and water and where NATO had bombed a hospital leaving the wounded with no medical treatment at all. If there is any remnant of civilization left in this world, these war crimes would also be investigated and the perpetrators punished.

As for the 'Misrata' lies, I believe that story has been pretty much proven to be untrue. The presentation to the UN has been completely exposed as outright lies at worst, confirmed actually by the very person who made the presentation himself in a public interview for a French documentary on this story.

The murder in custody of what looks like now, several POWS, hopefully will be thoroughly investigated. I see Jibril has been attempting to blame it on 'crossfire' then on 'a child did it', and so many other stories have been circulating, but as the UN Rappateur has said, 'no one knows the facts and it is necessary to determine them as Gadaffi was clearly alive when captured'. Another story now is that he was shot in the hospital. So, it is clear that a thorough investigation needs to take place.

Just interviewing the guy who made the presentation to the UN to get a Resolution on Libya, uncovered facts from his own lips, that had the UN been in possession of, ie, the lies about the Gadaffi Air Force, the lies about '6,000 dead civilians' and apparently the 'mass grave of prisoners' is now said to have been Camel bones, but had that man been questioned as he now has been, in public, there is no way that Resolution could have been passed.

[chervilant]

132. Wow...

You have completely misunderstood sabrina's post. You might want to reread and retract...

[napoleon_in_rags]

31. Its really this creeping psychological thing more than anything else...

Its this psychological need I see to celebrate whenever they see anybody weak or marginalized taken out by a clearly stronger force. I celebrate when I see a force that was oppressing people taken out, but I'm smart enough to know a 16 year old boy wasn't oppressing people. So I see those who celebrate that as basically broadcasting their own fear, concealing their own feelings of weakness. But this kind of thing is spreading in our culture, you see this jackalism all over the place, we're told to respect this scavenger who struts around with the rotting bone from the big kill in his mouth, claiming he did it. But what about the heroes? The people who make a stand against STRONG forces? (Like the rebels who put their lives on the line on the ground in Libya) The people who stood up against forces bigger than them and actually took them down? The lions? The get no respect, when they are in my opinion exactly the people who should be getting all of it.

Just MHO

[TomClash]

21. K&R

Just for being human.

[lunatica]

23. Wow! You just wrote a whole book or movie in just 1 paragraph and 2 lines

Are you a write by any chance?

[whatchamacallit]

25. No no, just a vivid memory that came to the fore

Thanks though :)

[lunatica]

32. Well you presented that memory with good writing skills

So see? It isn't about the memory. It's how you shared it. It touches people and tells much more of a story than just mere words.

[polly7]

24. K & R n/t.

[sad sally]

27. It is unacceptable for innocent civilians to be slaughtered as a

"side-effect or simply called collateral damage" during an intentional strike against a specified target. Killing civilians, even if unintentional, is criminal.

[Angry Dragon]

55. +1000

[Confusious]

148. So if civilians make the weapons of war

we can't attack them?

If an army disperses civilians amongst themselves, we can't shoot at them, because we might unintentionally hit a civilian?

Just how far does it go?

[Confusious]

149. dup

[emilyg]

33. Thank you.

[Tx4obama]

34. If a person does not want to be killed by a drone ....

then the best way to avoid it is to not hang around TERRORISTS that belong to Al Qaeda.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slipslidingaway]

39. US drone strikes in Pakistan claiming many civilian victims, says campaigner

US drone strikes in Pakistan claiming many civilian victims, says campaignerOne man in Waziristan is documenting casualties – and says destruction has been radicalising locals


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/17/us-drone-strikes-pakistan-waziristan

"...The photographs make for difficult viewing and leave no doubt about the destructive power of the Hellfire missiles unleashed: a boy with the top of his head missing, a severed hand, flattened houses, the parents of children killed in a strike. The chassis is all that remains of a car in one photo, another shows the funeral of a seven-year-old child. There are pictures, too, of the cheap rubber flip-flops worn by children and adults, which often survive: signs that life once existed there. A 10-year-old boy's body, prepared for burial, shows lipstick on him and flowers in his hair – a mother's last loving touch.

There are photos of burned and battered Qur'ans – but no pictures of women: the conservative culture in Waziristan will not allow Noor Behram to photograph the women, even dead and dismembered. So he makes do with documenting shredded pieces of women's clothing.

The jagged terrain, the often isolated location of strikes, curfews and the presence of Taliban, all mean that it is a major challenge to get to the site of a drone strike. Noor Behram has managed to reach 60, in both North and South Waziristan, in which he estimates more than 600 people were killed. An exhibition of his work, at London's Beaconsfield gallery opening on Tuesday, features pictures from 27 different drone strikes. Clive Stafford Smith, head of Reprieve, the campaigning group, has launched a lawsuit along with a Pakistani lawyer, Shahzad Akbar, seeking to bring to justice those responsible for civilian deaths from drones. "I think these pictures are deeply important evidence," said Stafford Smith. "They put a human face that is in marked contrast to what the US is suggesting its operators in Nevada and elsewhere are doing. "They show the reality of ordinary people being killed and losing their homes, not senior al-Qaida members."

The programme of drone strikes was ramped up under the Obama administration..."

[sabrina 1]

43. Thank you for that. I remember reading an article by, I think it was

John Pilger, after he had witnessed the aftermath of a drone strike. He was visiting a village, trying to report on the effects of the war in Afghanistan on the villagers when the drone strike hit the villagers. His description was heart breaking, graphic as he described the parents running to the scene, desperately trying to find a part of their children to bury, crying, grief-stricken. I think it should be obligatory for every person who supports this or tries to excuse it, to have to look at the bodies and to have face the loved ones and tell THEM what they so cavalierly say about these monstrous WMD on internet boards.

I am glad someone is recording this evil. We always need witnesses to these evil acts otherwise governments would never be held accountable. History will do that and I hope it is told by the victims. We've heard too much already from the perpetrators.

[slipslidingaway]

120. You're welcome and glad people are writing about the effects ...

too often the unintended deaths are just dismissed as collateral damage.


"... I am glad someone is recording this evil. We always need witnesses to these evil acts otherwise governments would never be held accountable. History will do that and I hope it is told by the victims. We've heard too much already from the perpetrators..."

:thumbsup:

[whatchamacallit]

41. Your thinking can't possibly be this simplistic and binary.

:wow:

[krabigirl]

44. Sadly, many people do think like this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Business major. n/t

[bvar22]

69. Simplistic, Binary, Entrenched, Consistent.

Only in the Binary World of Middle Childhood can Opposition to the US Military Involvement in Libya
be equated to support for "The Terrorists".


If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!

[sibelian]

97. It's more COMFORTABLE that way.

[Puglover]

107. Have I mentioned lately just how wonderful the ignored function

is? I don't have to read the crap.

[Angry Dragon]

52. Not all terrorists belong to Al Qaeda

Some even belong to the republican and democratic parties
Some even carry out illegal wars
Some even kill their own citizens
Some even lie to their citizens
Some even torture

Some even become what they say they are fighting

[Odin2005]

66. HE WAS A 16 YEAR OLD CHILD!!! I'm sure you did dumb shit when you where 16.

[sibelian]

96. Ah so they're responsible not only for their OWN behaviour

but or that of "terrorists" AND the USA as well.

I think you're just looking for some kind of peace of mind, aren't you?

[chervilant]

134. OMG!!!!!

That's it!

Go to Ignore, go directly to Ignore; do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

(What a sad, ill-informed, small-minded person you must be...)

[seabeyond]

35. some kids have really shitty parents. nt

[Divine Discontent]

36. exactly. I'm not a dad, but I have the heart of a good dad in me, and I think it's just AWFUL to

see such cold hearted comments that avoid the fact the boy has been killed and just focus on blaming the dad only, and such.



Get it here now, or one of a million other designs! http://www.zazzle.com/republicans_2012_keeping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128659602907896843?rf=238107662556833486eping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128659602907896843?rf=238107662556833486

[slipslidingaway]

37. knr nt

[a la izquierda]

40. Kudos on your post.

A thread I read on it made me very sad...

[reggie the dog]

47. How about the idea that al Awlaki's malice toward the usa is justified?

Seriously if he in from Yemen, a place with nearly 40% unemployment and 2/3 of people in poverty, and run by a US supported dictator (for over 30 years) who has taken to mass shootings of peaceful protesters in Sana'a, doesn't he have a moral right to direct outrage at the dictator and those keeping him in place (the usa).


how many of the people in alQuieda are justified in their hatred of the usa because the usa supported dictators in their homelands?

have any of you ever stopped to think of that?

is the idea that our actions brought 9-11 upon ourselves too much for people to understand?????

[Angry Dragon]

51. One can start with 1953 in Iran

The USA topples a democracy to impose a dictator, the Shah of Iran


One could look at 9/11 as being just collateral damage

[reggie the dog]

54. that is pretty much how i see it

collateral damage for our leaders, carnage for us....

[Ohio Joe]

86. An interesting way to justify terrorism

Personally, I can't justify it, attacking innocents because you are angry at their government only makes you also a murderer. No sympathy from me when it catches up with you.

[whatchamacallit]

100. And us?

Why don't you tally the body counts of innocents on both sides and tell us about terror.

[Ohio Joe]

102. I don't justify terrorism from anyone

Some people do. Was al Awlaki justified in putting a death warrant out for cartoonists? Was that all part of fighting the great Satan's injustice? I find it pretty fucked up how some people here justify that.

[reggie the dog]

161. and no sympathy from me when our actions as americans

catch up to us and the people we oppress hit us back. personally i would much rather that we did not ally oursleves with dictators.

[Ohio Joe]

165. So two wrongs make a right?

Was he also justified in putting out a death warrant on cartoonists?

I find the different ways people can justify supporting murderers fascinating.

[reggie the dog]

167. if we didnt support the dictator in yemen he would have

no legit grief against us. as for the death warrant on cartoonists no, that is crap, i support free speech. my idea is that if we support dictators we are no better than dictators, so to protect ourselves from being open to legit targeting for oppression we should simply not ally ourselves with dictators.

[Ohio Joe]

175. I can dig that

I don't feel the need to justify terrorism or killing innocent people to do it though.

[chervilant]

136. Apparently,

too much for some pathetic souls to understand...

(BTW, if you haven't already read it, I recomment "Lies my Teacher Told Me." This rather pedantic tome documents how sanitized and misleading are our secondary school history texts. Also, an essential overview of this nation's Bully-in-the-Global-Sandbox routine was written by Walter LaFeber: "The American Age.")

[reggie the dog]

160. thank you for the book

i read parts of that in grad school but i think i have just found my winter reading material. Lies my teacher told me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. The kid was a real threat to the USofA and wielded terrifying power to do us harm.

Well...someday..he might have put together an invasion fleet of supercarriers jam-packed with mercenaries from Burkina-Fazo and Anddorra and swept ashore in Miami and peed in the swimming pools.

Why, just look at how much of a threat hid dad was to America!

[Exultant Democracy]

56. We need to make sure we spill enough blood or the crops won't grow.

the gods are thirsty.

[nineteen50]

57. Live by the sword die by the sword.

Swords cut both ways.

[EFerrari]

59. Could you show how you know this 16 year old kid lived by the sword?

Thanks.

[Kurmudgeon]

73. When the parent swings one around, sometimes the kid gets cut.

If Mr. al-Awlaki had had any real consideration for his son, he would have kept him far far away from his activities.

[whatchamacallit]

75. Too bad all the parents in our target zones can't exercise such discretion

This line of reasoning is bullshit. When someone is murdered, the killer is still culpable regardless of the "risky behavior" of the victim.

[EFerrari]

77. Chimpanzees sometimes invade their rivals' camps and kill their young.

Two thousand years of Western civilization and we can't do better than they do.

[chervilant]

137. Yes, ma'am!

Well put, e.

[bluestate10]

139. Can you show that he did not? nt

[EFerrari]

178. I didn't make the claim and don't have to defend it. n/t

[Enthusiast]

60. K&R!

I agree. Compassion is in short supply.

[MadMaddie]

61. I will submit that it goes back to the basics of parenting

al-Awlaki knew that he was putting his son and family in danger and either he ignored that fact or he was using that fact.

The child is dead because of his father and his criminal activity.

May the child RIP.

[whatchamacallit]

65. Strange... many DUers seem to be incapable of perceiving the father and son as separate people

And that whatever rights the kid had were directly proportional to the father's. Baffling...

[sibelian]

98. Yes. They seek peace of mind.

So they re-wire their ethics so that nothing bad has happened.

[swilton]

62. Both father and son were victims!

[JCMach1]

171. Victims???

:eyes:

Please


Having nearly had one of this group's targeted planes land on top of me, don't even go there...

[Odin2005]

63. K&R

[Hanks]

67. I have

no idea of the point you were trying to make. The 2 things are not related in my humble opinion.

[whatchamacallit]

68. My point is simply

that kids only know the parents they have, and will love and follow them for better or worse. It's human nature. Someone posted that the the boy was brought to Yemen at the age of 5. All the people shouting that the boy should have made better choices need to get a fucking clue.

[MrScorpio]

70. Which is why al-Awlaki should hold the lion's share of blame

For putting his life in danger.

al-Awlaki decided to do what he did and paid the price for his actions. He should have made sure that his family was out of danger.

[whatchamacallit]

74. That seems to be the comfy consensus around here

How about the boy's rights? Does he have any as an individual, or is his killing strictly a function of his father's actions?

[MrScorpio]

76. His father made the choice of keeping him within proximity

He could have left him in the States or in another neutral location. al-Awlaki intentionally brought the boy into a war zone where he knew that he himself was a target.

[whatchamacallit]

79. Remove the dad's "recklessness" from the equation for a moment, if you're able

Now, do we have any responsibility whatsoever for the killing of this INDIVIDUAL human being?

[MrScorpio]

82. Of course we do... we decided to target and kill him

But the US consider what it did as an act of war.

Instead of focusing on this singular act, what should be addressed is the very nature of WHY America has this militarist policy and infrastructure in place.

As long as it exists, these types of things are bound to happen. My advice to you is to consider the big picture until the next atrocity happens…

Because it will.

[whatchamacallit]

88. When did we declare war?

I don't know what you're talking about. Are you referring to the specious doctrine of preemption that democrats used to hate?

[MrScorpio]

92. I'm afraid that you're adhering to an outmoded notion of American warfare

US policy has changed over the last 10 years.

The danger that Bush always presented was the establishment of a precedent that could be used to justify similar actions by any subsequent administration.

The cat's already out of the bag, my friend.

It's pretty naive to think that everything is going to turn around on a dime just because an administration changes… It's never been that way in this country.

[whatchamacallit]

94. So you support it now

because "it's the way things are"? Awesome! :thumbsup:

[MrScorpio]

101. You're putting words in my mouth

I never said that I supported it, I merely said that that's the way that things are today.

The problem here is that this country has established a tremendous military/industrial/congressional apparatus that's much bigger, diverse and more entrenched than anyone can conceive of.

Frankly, I want no part of it.

For example, before I retired from the USAF, I was assigned to a unit that was responsible for maintaining and operating remotely piloted drones in the Middle East. I had a Top Secret security clearance and could have started working at one of the many government contractors as a civilian.

I decided that I didn't want any part of that.

You're decrying the death of one child and, of course, the death was tragic… But I think that you're not thinking about the big picture here.

The problem is much more pervasive that this… I just think that you should focus more on the cause rather the effects.

[whatchamacallit]

104. The cause

is debatable. Kudos for both your service and your subsequent enlightenment.

[sabrina 1]

143. How did he know he was a target? He was never charged

with any crime, and when he left here in 2002, he was viewed favorably as a moderate Muslim by the Bush administration, having been invited by them to the Pentagon after 9/11 to participate in Bush's outreach to Muslims program.

So, what are you referring to regarding 'knowing he was a target'? If anything, having been to the attacks on 9/11, he might have been more likely a target of Muslim extremists.

I don't understand your point at all. Do you know anything about Awlaki?

[MrScorpio]

159. I know who he is...

He's this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

He's the guy who forgot that old adage about not poking a bear.

[EFerrari]

78. You mean, he should have protected his family from beyond the grave?

[MrScorpio]

80. The choice to place his family in a war zone where he himself was a target

Was done long before al-Awlaki was killed.

He also could have made it conditional that his family leave Yemen in the event of his own death.

But lets face it, al-Awlaki probably knew that he was going to be martyred… In his own mind, a martyr of a son might not be a bad idea either.

[EFerrari]

81. We were at war with Yemen in 2002?

And of course, that demon terrorist could not possibly love his son.

The justifications are puke worthy, seriously.

[whatchamacallit]

84. There seems to be a lot of conflating and blurring going on around here

:shrug:

[JI7]

85. we are not at war with Yemen but Al Qaeda

[MrScorpio]

87. If you think I'm justifying it, you're wrong

I'd rather the kid not have been killed in an active war zone… I'm just saying that if al-Awlaki felt the same way by considering his son's safety, rather than his hatred for the United States first and foremost, he would have done something about it.

[coalition_unwilling]

71. Emphatic K&R - n/t

[bvar22]

72. Thank You. K&R

.




Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[JNinWB]

83. Did the forces KNOW that the son was with the targets?

What if they did not know---either his location or his age?

Would that change any opinions?

Having his age incorrect initially does not answer the questions.

[Ilsa]

90. I hate that this poor child was killed, but I blame his parent.

His father got him killed, knowing that he himself would be a target, and his son could end up death or injured.

I wish it had not happened. Period.

[pasto76]

91. I didnt know shit about anything when I was 16

neither did that kid.

Children unilaterally suffer the most in any war. Which is one of the reasons it must always be the last resort.

[whatchamacallit]

95. + 100000000000000000...

[hue]

99. Your true story re: the "shit faced. I mean barely-able-to-function drunk."

is very touching. Yes children will follow their parents everywhere and any where unaware of the consequences. Such love and total trust do children have for their parents. We do not know how the father acquired his "shit face" and apparently was not so drunk that he was unable to play his guitar and entertain the patrons. Perhaps the father had worked decades in shit jobs just to feed his family and get by. We can only assume why the father looked so worn.
Yet an analogy between the "shit faced old man", and al Awlaki's son is uneven to say the least and really not applicable in this case.

One father brought his son to a gig that most teens would think cool. And I assume his father was getting paid for that work. It was a relatively safe environment in any regard. They may have even gotten a meal after the gig was over.
The other father took his son into an environment that was definitely life threatening. He had been the target of drones previously and knew full well that he would be targeted again. When they saw the drone coming they ran to the vehicle rather than away. One father took his son into a relatively positive experience with no apparent risk to the son's life and one father had many other options (the obvious being to leave his son in the US with his grandparents who were also well aware that their son was on a terrorist hit list) but chose to have his son die with him/put his son in the most dire of circumstances.
I totally feel a sense of deep affection for the devoted sons--both of them. They are precious!
Most children have such a blind adoration for their parents!
Your "strange emotion" is a touching human gift and I wish you all the best in your relationship with your son! Thank you for sharing this empathetic moment with us!

[whatchamacallit]

103. Thanks for having a nuanced argument

The point of the OP was never to argue the father's role or responsibility, it was simply an appeal to decency. Thanks for weighing in.

BTW, it turned out the kid's dad WAS too wasted to perform. :shrug:

[hue]

105. tbh I wasn't arguing, I was just clarifying.

sorry the kid's father in the bar/restaurant wasn't able to perform. His son was prob embarrassed.

[whatchamacallit]

109. I got the impression he'd seen it before

but he was wearing his Biltmore and a cool two-sizes-too-big thrift store jacket and was at a gig with his dad!

[NutmegYankee]

110. Oh come on! This boy wasn't hanging around with a drunk.

He wasn't even hanging around with his Father. He was killed prior to this. A better analogy would be this boy hanging around with John Dillinger at the Biograph Theater when the authorities closed in.

[whatchamacallit]

111. I can tell you don't have the tools

to understand the post, let alone debate it.

[NutmegYankee]

112. Your only tool for response was an ad hominem attack.

I don't need to debate any further when you have already shown you don't have anything in this game of poker.

Why was the boy riding with a notorious terrorist?

[whatchamacallit]

114. It's not a game, man n/t

[NutmegYankee]

115. You're right - It's a Metaphor.

What was that comment about tools?

[whatchamacallit]

118. Look

The main point of the OP is that we don't get to pick our parents. Children aren't always able to dispassionately evaluate family choices, especially if their exposure to alternative models is limited. We don't know all the details of the kid's life. We don't his heart, his mind, or his options. Blaming the victim for putting himself in harm's way is a cold, vacuous argument.

[NutmegYankee]

121. I understood the family point.

But I want to point out that the boy was not with family when he was killed. And like it or not, a 16 year-old is old enough to comprehend who he should be hanging around with. That cutoff is a tough one and is widely debated. The US legal system often holds that it is around 14, which I think is too young. I think that age is about 16. I realize the boy was likely brainwashed by his father and teenagers are impulsive and often choose risky endeavors, but the logic abilities of the brain are sufficiently developed at that age. What comes later is the a shift of the risk versus reward system to focus on risk more than reward.

There is room for disagreement here, but I wouldn't consider a 16 year-old as innocent as a 12 year-old. We trust a 16 year-old to drive because we believe they are mature enough to make these kinds of decisions. In most cases they are.

[whatchamacallit]

129. Fair enough

You make some good points. That said, there is still the fundamental question of what the US has the right to do to innocent people, in *any* circumstance. I do not agree the kid had it coming.

PS sorry for my 1st response.

[EFerrari]

145. You don't know who this kid was with when he died

and you want to condemn him to death for something you don't even know to be a fact.

Tell again about the logic abilities of the brain.

[NutmegYankee]

157. We know who he was with.

Google is your friend.

[EFerrari]

176. More assuming. No, we know the Pentagon says he was

traveling with a high value target. But they also said he was 21. It's not like the Pentagon would ever lie to cover their asses about killing children, is it.

Haditha killings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

Ishaqi incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishaqi_massacre

Mahmudiyah killings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_incident

[NutmegYankee]

182. Where in my post did I make an assumption?

Please point it out. Oh right, you can't! Go post your faux outrage somewhere else.

[EFerrari]

183. You mean besides assuming that I hadn't used the Google?

And besides assuming that what is in those reports is accurate?

[NutmegYankee]

184. I don't have to assume the reports are accurate.

I found plenty of articles supplying the information, including many non-US or ally sources, to back it up. You on the other hand...

[EFerrari]

185. You don't have to assume the reports are accurate because

you found "plenty of articles supplying the information".

What was that about logical ability again. lol

[NutmegYankee]

187. Not all of us wear tinfoil hats.

My logic abilities are fine. You on the other hand see things in a very simple black and white - If the USA had anything to do with it at all, it is evil.

[rosesaylavee]

116. Thank you.

K & R

[quaker bill]

117. It is an equal shame that anyone gets killed

I am sure many who have died were 16, some were very much younger, some were very much older, some were disabled, some were pregnant women, a great many were unarmed, and many bore weapons. Each death is fully regrettable, no one more than another.

[whatchamacallit]

119. That's why there need to be rules and oversight

so it isn't a bloody free-for-all.

[quaker bill]

127. Even with rules and oversight

it is pretty much the same. Lots of people die. No one death in such things is better than another. There is a simple rule, don't do it at all.

Once you have decided to begin the killing, many unfortunate things will invariably happen.

[whatchamacallit]

130. Can't argue with that. n/t

[Marnie]

128. The WH knows what it was doing was illegal and wrong.

Why else did the lie about his age?

Why not give the public the legal proof that he deserved a death sentence. Remember he was not a combatant.

[Tx4obama]

142. The White House did NOT lie about his age. Other 'people' and news reports did.

SNIP

The Yemeni Defense Ministry identified the slain media chief as Egyptian-born Ibrahim al-Bana. Tribal elders in the area also said the dead included Abdul-Rahman al-Awlaki, the 21-year-old son of Anwar al-Awlaki,

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/15/yemen-says-local-al-qaeda-media-chief-six-others-killed/#ixzz1bermERjs


Now please post a link from 'The WHITE HOUSE'.

So, far The White House has not said ANYTHING at all about anyone's ages - as far as I know.

Please STOP saying that the 'White House' lied.

[Bonobo]

135. Imagine China sending drones into Canada to kill a Canadian

for his father's ties (or his own) to the Free Tibet Movement.

[bluestate10]

138. You impose your reality on others. Why don't you stop doing that?

The key assumption that you make is that the 16 year old in Yemen was a regular 16 year old and not someone that has been indoctrinated to hate and murder since he could barely walk. At least allow the possibility that your father/son vision is wrong.

[EFerrari]

144. What is your evidence this kid was indoctrinated to hate and murder?

Thanks.

[bluestate10]

147. What is your evidence that he was not?

Read my post. May does not mean was. BTW, can you definitely saw that one of the young soldiers killed at the Pentagon on 9/11 would not one day bring peace to the world? You answer, I am sure, will display your biases and reality as YOU see it.

[whatchamacallit]

151. What are you talking about?

I don't know he wasn't (whatever the hell you're suggesting he was), but It used to be customary to prove someone's guilt (of whatever crime you're alluding to) before you punish them. I won't even try to address the weird crap about the pentagon and the potential future savior of the world.

[EFerrari]

174. You are making the claim. What is your evidence for it?

[Tx4obama]

156. You're joking right ???

Anwar al-Awlaki

SNIP

In "44 Ways to Support Jihad," another sermon posted on his blog in February 2009, al-Awlaki encouraged others to "fight jihad", and explained how to give money to the mujahideen or their families after they've died. Al-Awlaki's sermon also encouraged others to conduct weapons training, and raise children "on the love of Jihad." Also that month, he wrote: "I pray that Allah destroys America and all its allies." He wrote as well: "We will implement the rule of Allah on Earth by the tip of the sword, whether the masses like it or not." On July 14, he criticized armies of Muslim countries that assist the U.S. military, saying, "the blame should be placed on the soldier who is willing to follow orders ... who sells his religion for a few dollars."In a sermon on his blog on July 15, 2009, entitled "Fighting Against Government Armies in the Muslim World," al-Awlaki wrote, "Blessed are those who fight against American soldiers, and blessed are those shuhada (martyrs) who are killed by them."
http://www.aabout.biz/2011/09/anwar-al-awlaki.html
---

Did you catch that? " ... raise children "on the love of Jihad."

He and his SON can not be compared to a average American father and son.
al-Awlaki's son has lived in Yemen since 2002 - he was NOT raised as an American,
The son was raised 'on the love of Jihad'.

If anyone thinks that al Awlaki's son wasn't indoctrinated into the ideology of his father BY HIS FATHER - I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell ya :)

[EFerrari]

173. No, I'm not kiddng. And I'll take that as a "none".

[whatchamacallit]

146. Wow, hard to know where to begin...

1) I don't know shit about this kid, except we blew him up without bothering to say why. If the government produces some evidence this 16 year old american was a real "evil doer" and an imminent threat to the US, I'll consider it. Otherwise, everything you suggest he may have been is a figment of your fear-soaked imagination.

2) Since when is the possibility of indoctrination, justification for execution? Seems you may have some indoctrination issues of your own.

3) My post was never an attempt to impose anything. It was an anecdote meant to illustrate how kids can unconditionally love their parents, and how that might lead them to be in not-so-great situations. I then asked DUers to show some decency. That's all.

[bluestate10]

150. There you go again. Making assumptions that mirror your own sense of reality.

You call me fear soaked. Really? Do you know me? Until you have seen my reaction in a situation where one can become afraid, you don't know what my state of mind is.

Disagreeing with you does not make a person a subject of indoctrination. Stop making that assumption about some one that you know nothing about.

I can find children that hate their parents. You assumption about unconditional love was applied universally. Again, you assumed based upon the image that you wanted to shape, or your vision of what reality is.

DUers that say may be the kid was not a doe eyed innocent may be showing decency. Again, the issue boils down to whether DUers parrot the reality that you propose or not.

[whatchamacallit]

152. This is kinda sad...

I don't presume to know how it is, or should be between all parents and children. All I know right now is that a kid is dead, we don't know why, and that your paranoid suppositions justify nothing.

[Bonobo]

164. You have not only missed the boat, you don't even know what water is. nt

[Tx4obama]

169. The son was NOT 'executed;

He was not the one being targeted.

see comment #4 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=805016&mesg_id=805032

[EFerrari]

179. So, again, we're back to the Pentagon doesn't know who they're killing.

You can't possibly believe that's better.

[Bonobo]

163. Dude, he was a US citizen and a 16-year old.

Your imaginings concerning his guilt or innocence are unimportant in light of those facts.

Period. End of story.

[Tx4obama]

168. As I posted previous on the link below

in comment #4: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=805016&mesg_id=805032

[JCMach1]

170. You are exactly right,, their American citizenship is mostly just an accident

and it is clear they were living and working as Jihadis in Yemen.

I support the President in his decision to go after the Jihadis/Al Quaeda in Yemen and elsewhere.

[Bonobo]

172. And as I said earlier, you have no evidence to support your position that he wasn't targeted.

You are blowing smoke and making shit up.

[Cali_Democrat]

141. Thanks for the perspective.

[Broderick]

154. This place can be the most cold callous cruel and even racist place

It depends on so many things, but usually it's to do with a single letter designation.

I appreciate your anecdote to tragedy and life. It means something to me. Thanks.

[Bonobo]

162. This reminds me of the ending scene from Angel Heart when the hero

remembers that he is the murderer.

THAT is what people need to wake up and see.

Obama has continued and even extended the most odious of Bush's offenses against the constitution and has pushed us further towards fascism in which a single person can secretly order the death of any US citizen.

[LanternWaste]

177. It appears that the old adage, "the sins of the father are the sins of the sons"...

It appears that the old adage, "the sins of the father are the sins of the sons" has been taken from the pages of the Old Testament, re-branded and rationalized, and now becomes a New & Improved Progressive Vengeance.

[11 Bravo]

180. I have been on the other side of this issue.

Not one of the grave-dancers, but sort of a "you fuck with the bull, you sometimes get the horns" guy.
But I'm also a Dad, with 15 and 18 year-old sons. I have no doubt that both of them would come with me wherever or whenever I asked them.
You have given me reason to pause and reflect.

[whatchamacallit]

188. 11 Bravo!

We're all trying to find our way through this mess the best we can. Thanks for considering the spirit of the OP.

[snooper2]

181. Did I miss something?

:shrug:

[whatchamacallit]

189. Yes.

[michnied123]

186. Thanks for the post

It's really terrible that so many Americans have bought into this war on terror.